ultima 7 has aged abit better then the rest of them but i do agree somewhat.
it also does not help that most crpg fans tent to ignore anything before fallout 1 so to them crpgs as a genre to them and how they know them did not start until 97.
That's because there's a pretty big difference between games that basically required graph paper and your instruction manual open at all times and what came after Fallout/Baldur's Gate. I respect those games, I OWN all of those games digitally. I don't have time to do that. Not to mention I mostly play games on my laptop in bed. Those games deserve all the respect in the world, but to say playing them in 2020 is a pain is putting it mildly. Before Fallout, the only games that even conceded to being SLIGHTLY easier with an easy to follow in-game auto-map were Might and Magic III/IV/V and, idk, maybe Lands of Lore??
thats why i tend to exclude ultima 7 from that era. besides the lack of a quest log it fits pretty well into the post fallout 1 mind set of crpgs. if anything it's the grand father of those games.
thats why i tend to exclude ultima 7 from that era. besides the lack of a quest log it fits pretty well into the post fallout 1 mind set of crpgs. if anything it's the grand father of those games.
It clearly stands out, and yes, importantly it pushed the tech far enough that you no longer needed a manual, graph paper. Though if anyone were to play it, having not played it before, i'd highly recommend a notebook. As you say, without the quest log you can get lost.
And it was clearly the big inspiration for the OS games from Larian, along with the IE games as well of course. OS is a kind of marriage of Ultima7 and BG.
All that praise being said, I dare you to convince an avid CRPG player who's too young to have played Ultima 7 to try it. The inventory management is hell. The food system is annoying after awhile. The combat system is so barebones and so automated that it basically just comes down to equipping the best gear possible and crossing your fingers in combat. It's amazing how many core RPG systems are bad or nonexistent, and yet the game itself was still grand. However, there's no way you convince someone under 30 to play that game to completion, imo.
I also don't get people who like CRPG's but can't stand turn based combat? You're really limiting yourself to a pretty small number of titles if that's your preference, and frankly, shortchanging your gaming experience.
You may not have meant it this way but this is very patronizing to me. You are essentially saying cRPGs and TB combat naturally go together. I utterly reject that. That 90% of today's cRPGs are TB is a choise the devs are making, a choice that leaves us RTwP fans screwed over. So we're not limiting ourselves. We're having that limit forced upon us. And not for one second will I accept that just because studios are only making something I dislike, I should suck it up and accept it. As much as I love cRPGs first and foremost, I would rather play a RTwP ARPG than a TB cRPG if for no other reason than on principle.
i don't like 3d turn based crpgs. stuff like fallout 1,2 arcanum, and spiderwebs stuff i don't mind as they are 2d with sprites. but for some reason 3d turn based games tend to be really slow and that makes battles go on to long and thus become boring.
thats my issue with dos 1 and 2 and even tides. and looks to be the case with bg 3.
thats why i tend to exclude ultima 7 from that era. besides the lack of a quest log it fits pretty well into the post fallout 1 mind set of crpgs. if anything it's the grand father of those games.
It clearly stands out, and yes, importantly it pushed the tech far enough that you no longer needed a manual, graph paper. Though if anyone were to play it, having not played it before, i'd highly recommend a notebook. As you say, without the quest log you can get lost.
And it was clearly the big inspiration for the OS games from Larian, along with the IE games as well of course. OS is a kind of marriage of Ultima7 and BG.
All that praise being said, I dare you to convince an avid CRPG player who's too young to have played Ultima 7 to try it. The inventory management is hell. The food system is annoying after awhile. The combat system is so barebones and so automated that it basically just comes down to equipping the best gear possible and crossing your fingers in combat. It's amazing how many core RPG systems are bad or nonexistent, and yet the game itself was still grand. However, there's no way you convince someone under 30 to play that game to completion, imo.
It way more playable with Exult, but only from the perspective that the mouse control isn't as floaty. The bags inside of bags inside of other bags and where did I put that key that looks indentical to all of the two dozen other ones I have. And yes, the combat is crap. It's crap in every Ultima game ever.
Ultima is about IDEAS. IV was about a game being more than just killing mobs for experience. VII was about creating a living, breathing functional world, and Ultima Underworld was about a real 3D society and navigating through it. VIII and IX?? Those were about what happens when a publisher ruins your franchise. If anyone thinks Larian getting Baldur's Gate is a travesty, I encourage you to all go experience what a real travesty is and try play either of those games for 2 hours without reaching for the razors.
All this talk of Ultima gives me the urge to get VII and try it out. One of those games I've heard endless praise for but never tried, and I have a certain fondness for the old old school crpgs.
Can anyone explain to me
- how a modder has the manpower to add TB to Pathfinder: Kingmaker,
- how Owlcat has the manpower to add TB as an on-the-fly toggle for WotR,
- how Obsidian has the manpower to add a fully-fledged TB mode to Deadfir
(...)
- but Larian can’t leverage its 350-person team to make a RTwP option?
Between RtWP and TB i an neutral, enjoy both. Loved BG/IWD/NWN and loved ToEE. I just don't understand why Larian doesn't give the option to play RtWP.
All this talk of Ultima gives me the urge to get VII and try it out. One of those games I've heard endless praise for but never tried, and I have a certain fondness for the old old school crpgs.
Personally, I think part two, the Serpent Isle is the better intro into the series for new players. They refined a bunch of the issues in the first game, combat is slightly more interesting, though that ain't saying much. There's some backstory you won't get about your party companions, but there's a great more back story in the first 7, because of it being set in the same place as all the previous games. Whereas Serpent Isle is a completely new setting to every player, so you don't have to know any of the game lore going in really.
Serpent Isle is a little more linear, but i actually think the questing and such is stronger, at least in the first half of the game. The silver seed DLC portion is excellent as well. Serpent Isle's biggest weakness over the Black Gate only really comes up in the final third, where the content kind of feels rushed and some of the dungeon puzzles are just frustrating. It's sort of akin to the somewhat weak ending segment of BG2 (Suldanessalar and the forest areas)
Can anyone explain to me
- how a modder has the manpower to add TB to Pathfinder: Kingmaker,
- how Owlcat has the manpower to add TB as an on-the-fly toggle for WotR,
- how Obsidian has the manpower to add a fully-fledged TB mode to Deadfir
(...)
- but Larian can’t leverage its 350-person team to make a RTwP option?
Between RtWP and TB i an neutral, enjoy both. Loved BG/IWD/NWN and loved ToEE. I just don't understand why Larian doesn't give the option to play RtWP.
larian are anti rtwp. only reason they had it in their games prior to dos was due to their publisher forcing it on them.
I also don't get people who like CRPG's but can't stand turn based combat? You're really limiting yourself to a pretty small number of titles if that's your preference, and frankly, shortchanging your gaming experience.
You may not have meant it this way but this is very patronizing to me. You are essentially saying cRPGs and TB combat naturally go together. I utterly reject that. That 90% of today's cRPGs are TB is a choise the devs are making, a choice that leaves us RTwP fans screwed over. So we're not limiting ourselves. We're having that limit forced upon us. And not for one second will I accept that just because studios are only making something I dislike, I should suck it up and accept it. As much as I love cRPGs first and foremost, I would rather play a RTwP ARPG than a TB cRPG if for no other reason than on principle.
You're free to misinterpret my words in the worst way possible, but that's not at all what I said. I didn't and don't make arguments about what is "natural" in a video game. I said what I said -- you are literally limiting yourself to like maybe a dozen CRPG's if you only want to play RTwP.
Imagine telling someone you will only eat chocolate ice cream. They respond well maybe try vanilla? It's good you might like it! NO! And the fact that so many ice cream stands offer vanilla and not more varieties of chocolate is screwing me over!
I just don't get this logic where you get to insist that more developers should make games to your taste, but it's somehow rude and out of bounds for me to suggest you try something new for a change? Why is it okay for you to insist the people do *labor* in ways that please specifically you, but I'm not allowed to just make a suggestion? A suggestion, that, as I said, has a strong empirical backing. It's not about what's natural or even what's superior. Hell, my preference is real time, not TB. But the genre has always been majority TB! And probably always will be.
what if it's just personal preference. as i said i don;t like modern turn based 3d crpgs. but trying to force me into playing something i know i don't like is not gonna help.
Can anyone explain to me
- how a modder has the manpower to add TB to Pathfinder: Kingmaker,
- how Owlcat has the manpower to add TB as an on-the-fly toggle for WotR,
- how Obsidian has the manpower to add a fully-fledged TB mode to Deadfir
(...)
- but Larian can’t leverage its 350-person team to make a RTwP option?
Between RtWP and TB i an neutral, enjoy both. Loved BG/IWD/NWN and loved ToEE. I just don't understand why Larian doesn't give the option to play RtWP.
Because they determined it's not worth the cost. A separate game mode, made from the ground up isn't necessarily easy. Owlcat was able to include a TB mode specifically in order to raise more money for its title. Deadfire's turnbased mode is certainly viable, but it's not at all balanced in terms of stats and abilities. It turns dexterity into a dump stat for almost every build, for one example. They get away with it, because it came post launch. But man-hours spent building that system could have gone into the ship-to-ship combat, imo, and made that system more viable. And the game would've been better for it.
I think just assuming that both modes can be implemented, and that it would be a piece of cake to do it on any engine, it's making quite a number of assumptions.
what if it's just personal preference. as i said i don;t like modern turn based 3d crpgs. but trying to force me into playing something i know i don't like is not gonna help.
No one praising BG3 is forcing you to buy it or like it or talk about it. Again, I don't think it's fair to miscontrue people's words like this. I literally said I was making a *suggestion*.
The only people I've seen coming close to "forcing" anything on these boards, are, actually people trying to force Larian to insert a realtime mode with some odd petition. So if we're going to talk about who is trying to "force" their preference, let's be honest about what's happened in this space.
I also don't get people who like CRPG's but can't stand turn based combat? You're really limiting yourself to a pretty small number of titles if that's your preference, and frankly, shortchanging your gaming experience.
You may not have meant it this way but this is very patronizing to me. You are essentially saying cRPGs and TB combat naturally go together. I utterly reject that. That 90% of today's cRPGs are TB is a choise the devs are making, a choice that leaves us RTwP fans screwed over. So we're not limiting ourselves. We're having that limit forced upon us. And not for one second will I accept that just because studios are only making something I dislike, I should suck it up and accept it. As much as I love cRPGs first and foremost, I would rather play a RTwP ARPG than a TB cRPG if for no other reason than on principle.
You're free to misinterpret my words in the worst way possible, but that's not at all what I said. I didn't and don't make arguments about what is "natural" in a video game. I said what I said -- you are literally limiting yourself to like maybe a dozen CRPG's if you only want to play RTwP.
Imagine telling someone you will only eat chocolate ice cream. They respond well maybe try vanilla? It's good you might like it! NO! And the fact that so many ice cream stands offer vanilla and not more varieties of chocolate is screwing me over!
I just don't get this logic where you get to insist that more developers should make games to your taste, but it's somehow rude and out of bounds for me to suggest you try something new for a change? Why is it okay for you to insist the people do *labor* in ways that please specifically you, but I'm not allowed to just make a suggestion? A suggestion, that, as I said, has a strong empirical backing. It's not about what's natural or even what's superior. Hell, my preference is real time, not TB. But the genre has always been majority TB! And probably always will be.
Because I am the customer. The vendor is supposed to cater to the customer, not the customer having to change their preference to suit the vendor. That you don't get it is your problem.
I also don't get people who like CRPG's but can't stand turn based combat? You're really limiting yourself to a pretty small number of titles if that's your preference, and frankly, shortchanging your gaming experience.
You may not have meant it this way but this is very patronizing to me. You are essentially saying cRPGs and TB combat naturally go together. I utterly reject that. That 90% of today's cRPGs are TB is a choise the devs are making, a choice that leaves us RTwP fans screwed over. So we're not limiting ourselves. We're having that limit forced upon us. And not for one second will I accept that just because studios are only making something I dislike, I should suck it up and accept it. As much as I love cRPGs first and foremost, I would rather play a RTwP ARPG than a TB cRPG if for no other reason than on principle.
You're free to misinterpret my words in the worst way possible, but that's not at all what I said. I didn't and don't make arguments about what is "natural" in a video game. I said what I said -- you are literally limiting yourself to like maybe a dozen CRPG's if you only want to play RTwP.
Imagine telling someone you will only eat chocolate ice cream. They respond well maybe try vanilla? It's good you might like it! NO! And the fact that so many ice cream stands offer vanilla and not more varieties of chocolate is screwing me over!
I just don't get this logic where you get to insist that more developers should make games to your taste, but it's somehow rude and out of bounds for me to suggest you try something new for a change? Why is it okay for you to insist the people do *labor* in ways that please specifically you, but I'm not allowed to just make a suggestion? A suggestion, that, as I said, has a strong empirical backing. It's not about what's natural or even what's superior. Hell, my preference is real time, not TB. But the genre has always been majority TB! And probably always will be.
Because I am the customer. The vendor is supposed to cater to the customer, not the customer having to change their preference to suit the vendor. That you don't get it is your problem.
That's not how vending works at all. Vendors don't have to cater to the whims of every single customer.
On the contrary, they actually have an obligation to read the marketplace, and to sell products that the market wants. Not what an individual customer wants. The market gobbled up OS2.
what if it's just personal preference. as i said i don;t like modern turn based 3d crpgs. but trying to force me into playing something i know i don't like is not gonna help.
No one praising BG3 is forcing you to buy it or like it or talk about it. Again, I don't think it's fair to miscontrue people's words like this. I literally said I was making a *suggestion*.
The only people I've seen coming close to "forcing" anything on these boards, are, actually people trying to force Larian to insert a realtime mode with some odd petition. So if we're going to talk about who is trying to "force" their preference, let's be honest about what's happened in this space.
Really?! Cause I saw a ton of people on the Obsidian forum demanding, first, that they change Deadfire to a TB game, and when that didn't work demanding a TB option.
I also saw a ton of people in the Kingmaker KS demanding the game be changed to TB and when they were rebuffed saying they would boycott the game. These people then returned in the WotR KS to make the same demands, and then Owlcat announced the TB option.
It's perfectly reasonable and FAIR for RTwP fans to do the same, not just for BG3 but for every TB cRPG in the future. I certainly will very loudly be doing that, and it would be rank hypocrisy for any TB fan to object.
what if it's just personal preference. as i said i don;t like modern turn based 3d crpgs. but trying to force me into playing something i know i don't like is not gonna help.
No one praising BG3 is forcing you to buy it or like it or talk about it. Again, I don't think it's fair to miscontrue people's words like this. I literally said I was making a *suggestion*.
The only people I've seen coming close to "forcing" anything on these boards, are, actually people trying to force Larian to insert a realtime mode with some odd petition. So if we're going to talk about who is trying to "force" their preference, let's be honest about what's happened in this space.
Really?! Cause I saw a ton of people on the Obsidian forum demanding, first, that they change Deadfire to a TB game, and when that didn't work demanding a TB option.
I also saw a ton of people in the Kingmaker KS demanding the game be changed to TB and when they were rebuffed saying they would boycott the game. These people then returned in the WotR KS to make the same demands, and then Owlcat announced the TB option.
It's perfectly reasonable and FAIR for RTwP fans to do the same, not just for BG3 but for every TB cRPG in the future. I certainly will very loudly be doing that, and it would be rank hypocrisy for any TB fan to object.
Right on, you're free to spend your energy on that. My advice, if you care, is that it's already set for Larian. So you'd be wasting your time. But hey, nobody knows the future.
However, I'm going to note that you seem to be using me as a proxy for an argument you want to have with someone else, the "TB fanatics" who persuaded Obsidian and Owlcat, apparently. As I've repeatedly told you in these discussions, I prefer realtime. I also believe Obsidian squandered their resources in crafting a TB mode, when other aspects could have used more fine tuning (contrast PoE1's post patch changes vs Deadfire's).
I don't mind a bit of heated back and forth here. But, I'm not the TB fanatic you're looking for.
Can anyone explain to me
- how a modder has the manpower to add TB to Pathfinder: Kingmaker,
- how Owlcat has the manpower to add TB as an on-the-fly toggle for WotR,
- how Obsidian has the manpower to add a fully-fledged TB mode to Deadfir
(...)
- but Larian can’t leverage its 350-person team to make a RTwP option?
Between RtWP and TB i an neutral, enjoy both. Loved BG/IWD/NWN and loved ToEE. I just don't understand why Larian doesn't give the option to play RtWP.
The answer is very easy: This game has online Multiplayer mode.
I think the majority of people would be happy if it was called Faerun or something similar instead of BG3. I'm just happy to be back in the world instead of games trying to be in the world. The dialogue looks a little weird but I'm sure I'll get used to it. it could be 2 years away for all we know and if its PC only then I won't get to play it.
One of the things I find striking about the whole "style" argument is how many people feel PoE was somehow stylistically very similar to the BG franchise. I never felt remotely like I was playing either BG or a spiritual successor to BG when I was playing PoE. It was just another one of the many IE-esque games that came out.
I felt the exact same. It was hyped up as the successor to BG2 but it was missing nearly everything I loved about BG. It was more like Temple of Elemental Evil than it was BG in most areas.
Same thing with The Outer Worlds. It didn't really feel or play anything like Fallout New Vegas.
so did bg 1 and 2 and both neverwinter nights games. and they were rtwp.
SorcererVictor asked for both modes in the same game, not one. An option to add RTwP mode to a TB game.
That is unlikely in a game with online multiplayer mode.
Maybe someone will create a mod for that but usually, it is easier to make an RT game TB-sy than the other way.
@jjstraka34 " If anyone thinks Larian getting Baldur's Gate is a travesty, I encourage you to all go experience what a real travesty is and try play either of those games for 2 hours without reaching for the razors."
I've played the Ultima series, I am INTIMATELY familiar with 8 and 9's failings. For me, "BG"3 is a steamy pile that Larian dumped on BG. Its a betrayal of the series just as much as Ultima 8 and 9 were.
what if it's just personal preference. as i said i don;t like modern turn based 3d crpgs. but trying to force me into playing something i know i don't like is not gonna help.
No one praising BG3 is forcing you to buy it or like it or talk about it. Again, I don't think it's fair to miscontrue people's words like this. I literally said I was making a *suggestion*.
The only people I've seen coming close to "forcing" anything on these boards, are, actually people trying to force Larian to insert a realtime mode with some odd petition. So if we're going to talk about who is trying to "force" their preference, let's be honest about what's happened in this space.
Really?! Cause I saw a ton of people on the Obsidian forum demanding, first, that they change Deadfire to a TB game, and when that didn't work demanding a TB option.
I also saw a ton of people in the Kingmaker KS demanding the game be changed to TB and when they were rebuffed saying they would boycott the game. These people then returned in the WotR KS to make the same demands, and then Owlcat announced the TB option.
It's perfectly reasonable and FAIR for RTwP fans to do the same, not just for BG3 but for every TB cRPG in the future. I certainly will very loudly be doing that, and it would be rank hypocrisy for any TB fan to object.
Right on, you're free to spend your energy on that. My advice, if you care, is that it's already set for Larian. So you'd be wasting your time. But hey, nobody knows the future.
However, I'm going to note that you seem to be using me as a proxy for an argument you want to have with someone else, the "TB fanatics" who persuaded Obsidian and Owlcat, apparently. As I've repeatedly told you in these discussions, I prefer realtime. I also believe Obsidian squandered their resources in crafting a TB mode, when other aspects could have used more fine tuning (contrast PoE1's post patch changes vs Deadfire's).
I don't mind a bit of heated back and forth here. But, I'm not the TB fanatic you're looking for.
I was only reacting to your post. I appreciate your clarification.
@ThacoBell I think you would do well to calm down a bit. I appreciate that you’re not happy but that amount of anger can not be healthy.
Easy to say when you're not on the disaffected side. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being angry, even very angry (though how you channel that anger is a separate issue). I too am very angry, and make no apologies whatsoever for my feelings. The moment Larian and WotC decided to title the game BG3 it became very personal to me.
@kanisatha well I am sorry you feel that way because it’s not going to change anything. Baldur’s Gate 3 is being made and it looks great in my opinion and I’ve also seen a lot of positive feedback.
Honestly, everyone shitting on realtime with pause but Dragon Age and the GOAT Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2 show how perfectly it can be done in a 3D enviroment. This choice is only because Wizards want to chase Divinity's success, not looking for a proper successor to Baldur's Gate and it feels like a kinda hollow and corporate decision from wizards side. Larian just want to make a good game but at the same time their designers are pretty vocal about their distaste for real time with pause while also saying they love Baldur's Gate which in turn, feels insincere on their part.
Really hoping something like a Planescape Torment 2 or Icewind Dale 3 gets kicked up in the future and keeps more to the IE style. It is a dying format which is a crying shame because it is very unique whereas Turn Based games are kinda thick at the moment and playing similar at a surface level. Shadowrun, Wasteland, Torment, Divinity, Xcom all with there action points and percentage hits and moving to cover all feel very slow which is not nessecarily a bad thing but when the best RPG's are all adopting the same style it kinda sucks.
Comments
That's because there's a pretty big difference between games that basically required graph paper and your instruction manual open at all times and what came after Fallout/Baldur's Gate. I respect those games, I OWN all of those games digitally. I don't have time to do that. Not to mention I mostly play games on my laptop in bed. Those games deserve all the respect in the world, but to say playing them in 2020 is a pain is putting it mildly. Before Fallout, the only games that even conceded to being SLIGHTLY easier with an easy to follow in-game auto-map were Might and Magic III/IV/V and, idk, maybe Lands of Lore??
It clearly stands out, and yes, importantly it pushed the tech far enough that you no longer needed a manual, graph paper. Though if anyone were to play it, having not played it before, i'd highly recommend a notebook. As you say, without the quest log you can get lost.
And it was clearly the big inspiration for the OS games from Larian, along with the IE games as well of course. OS is a kind of marriage of Ultima7 and BG.
All that praise being said, I dare you to convince an avid CRPG player who's too young to have played Ultima 7 to try it. The inventory management is hell. The food system is annoying after awhile. The combat system is so barebones and so automated that it basically just comes down to equipping the best gear possible and crossing your fingers in combat. It's amazing how many core RPG systems are bad or nonexistent, and yet the game itself was still grand. However, there's no way you convince someone under 30 to play that game to completion, imo.
thats my issue with dos 1 and 2 and even tides. and looks to be the case with bg 3.
It way more playable with Exult, but only from the perspective that the mouse control isn't as floaty. The bags inside of bags inside of other bags and where did I put that key that looks indentical to all of the two dozen other ones I have. And yes, the combat is crap. It's crap in every Ultima game ever.
Ultima is about IDEAS. IV was about a game being more than just killing mobs for experience. VII was about creating a living, breathing functional world, and Ultima Underworld was about a real 3D society and navigating through it. VIII and IX?? Those were about what happens when a publisher ruins your franchise. If anyone thinks Larian getting Baldur's Gate is a travesty, I encourage you to all go experience what a real travesty is and try play either of those games for 2 hours without reaching for the razors.
- how a modder has the manpower to add TB to Pathfinder: Kingmaker,
- how Owlcat has the manpower to add TB as an on-the-fly toggle for WotR,
- how Obsidian has the manpower to add a fully-fledged TB mode to Deadfir
(...)
- but Larian can’t leverage its 350-person team to make a RTwP option?
Between RtWP and TB i an neutral, enjoy both. Loved BG/IWD/NWN and loved ToEE. I just don't understand why Larian doesn't give the option to play RtWP.
Personally, I think part two, the Serpent Isle is the better intro into the series for new players. They refined a bunch of the issues in the first game, combat is slightly more interesting, though that ain't saying much. There's some backstory you won't get about your party companions, but there's a great more back story in the first 7, because of it being set in the same place as all the previous games. Whereas Serpent Isle is a completely new setting to every player, so you don't have to know any of the game lore going in really.
Serpent Isle is a little more linear, but i actually think the questing and such is stronger, at least in the first half of the game. The silver seed DLC portion is excellent as well. Serpent Isle's biggest weakness over the Black Gate only really comes up in the final third, where the content kind of feels rushed and some of the dungeon puzzles are just frustrating. It's sort of akin to the somewhat weak ending segment of BG2 (Suldanessalar and the forest areas)
larian are anti rtwp. only reason they had it in their games prior to dos was due to their publisher forcing it on them.
You're free to misinterpret my words in the worst way possible, but that's not at all what I said. I didn't and don't make arguments about what is "natural" in a video game. I said what I said -- you are literally limiting yourself to like maybe a dozen CRPG's if you only want to play RTwP.
Imagine telling someone you will only eat chocolate ice cream. They respond well maybe try vanilla? It's good you might like it! NO! And the fact that so many ice cream stands offer vanilla and not more varieties of chocolate is screwing me over!
I just don't get this logic where you get to insist that more developers should make games to your taste, but it's somehow rude and out of bounds for me to suggest you try something new for a change? Why is it okay for you to insist the people do *labor* in ways that please specifically you, but I'm not allowed to just make a suggestion? A suggestion, that, as I said, has a strong empirical backing. It's not about what's natural or even what's superior. Hell, my preference is real time, not TB. But the genre has always been majority TB! And probably always will be.
Because they determined it's not worth the cost. A separate game mode, made from the ground up isn't necessarily easy. Owlcat was able to include a TB mode specifically in order to raise more money for its title. Deadfire's turnbased mode is certainly viable, but it's not at all balanced in terms of stats and abilities. It turns dexterity into a dump stat for almost every build, for one example. They get away with it, because it came post launch. But man-hours spent building that system could have gone into the ship-to-ship combat, imo, and made that system more viable. And the game would've been better for it.
I think just assuming that both modes can be implemented, and that it would be a piece of cake to do it on any engine, it's making quite a number of assumptions.
No one praising BG3 is forcing you to buy it or like it or talk about it. Again, I don't think it's fair to miscontrue people's words like this. I literally said I was making a *suggestion*.
The only people I've seen coming close to "forcing" anything on these boards, are, actually people trying to force Larian to insert a realtime mode with some odd petition. So if we're going to talk about who is trying to "force" their preference, let's be honest about what's happened in this space.
That's not how vending works at all. Vendors don't have to cater to the whims of every single customer.
On the contrary, they actually have an obligation to read the marketplace, and to sell products that the market wants. Not what an individual customer wants. The market gobbled up OS2.
I also saw a ton of people in the Kingmaker KS demanding the game be changed to TB and when they were rebuffed saying they would boycott the game. These people then returned in the WotR KS to make the same demands, and then Owlcat announced the TB option.
It's perfectly reasonable and FAIR for RTwP fans to do the same, not just for BG3 but for every TB cRPG in the future. I certainly will very loudly be doing that, and it would be rank hypocrisy for any TB fan to object.
Right on, you're free to spend your energy on that. My advice, if you care, is that it's already set for Larian. So you'd be wasting your time. But hey, nobody knows the future.
However, I'm going to note that you seem to be using me as a proxy for an argument you want to have with someone else, the "TB fanatics" who persuaded Obsidian and Owlcat, apparently. As I've repeatedly told you in these discussions, I prefer realtime. I also believe Obsidian squandered their resources in crafting a TB mode, when other aspects could have used more fine tuning (contrast PoE1's post patch changes vs Deadfire's).
I don't mind a bit of heated back and forth here. But, I'm not the TB fanatic you're looking for.
The answer is very easy: This game has online Multiplayer mode.
I felt the exact same. It was hyped up as the successor to BG2 but it was missing nearly everything I loved about BG. It was more like Temple of Elemental Evil than it was BG in most areas.
Same thing with The Outer Worlds. It didn't really feel or play anything like Fallout New Vegas.
That is unlikely in a game with online multiplayer mode.
Maybe someone will create a mod for that but usually, it is easier to make an RT game TB-sy than the other way.
I've played the Ultima series, I am INTIMATELY familiar with 8 and 9's failings. For me, "BG"3 is a steamy pile that Larian dumped on BG. Its a betrayal of the series just as much as Ultima 8 and 9 were.
Really hoping something like a Planescape Torment 2 or Icewind Dale 3 gets kicked up in the future and keeps more to the IE style. It is a dying format which is a crying shame because it is very unique whereas Turn Based games are kinda thick at the moment and playing similar at a surface level. Shadowrun, Wasteland, Torment, Divinity, Xcom all with there action points and percentage hits and moving to cover all feel very slow which is not nessecarily a bad thing but when the best RPG's are all adopting the same style it kinda sucks.
This is Swen and Owlcat exchanging compliments.
Why can't the RtwP Taliban make peace. Even the Afghani managed it.