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Which flavour mage should I choose?

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Comments

  • iNtuiNtu Member Posts: 37
    edited August 21
    Well, if you couldnt wait a bit longer for your f/m/t to level up a few times... And you've tried so many other options and quickly grew tired of them too... I dont know if you're gonna be able to play as a sorcerer any longer than that... Sure he gets lots of spells, sure he is OP, but that comes later, just like with any other kit you chose before, all of them had great potential for later stages.

    I think its more about your own ability to stick to the choice you've made and persevere. Its about your own mental resolve. Everything seems to get to you, and you get put off by any little thing like = feeling a bit like a fighter, feeling like thief, dont want that feeling, generalist mage lacks spells... Why would sorcerer be any different? Im sure something negative can be found about him pretty quickly while he is at a low level and then he can be dropped the same way. And then what? You will go through all types of arcane caster combos spending like an hour or two for each one and get disappointed with all of them and get tired in general, after wasting so much time but without any progress, and eventually may put yourself off the game entirely.

    How do people solo with someone like a pure fighter? Having nothing at their disposal apart from melee/ranged options... The secret is simple = self-persuasive mindset before starting a game, some determination, creation of some identity for this character, bonding with him mentaly through the use of imagination, that he has a personality, some additional background... Anything to make yourself more attached to him/her and stick with him through all the suffering and bad experience, and share the joy of successes with him also.

    I apologize for being too psychological, but thats how I felt about it and wanted to express my opinion. Fight those demons which dont let you enjoy the game, every time you think something negative about the character, stop for a second and try to convince yourself otherwise... Otherwise its gonna be hard to ejoy whatever you may try.

    ElysianEchoesQuartz
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,206
    Tried a sorcerer. Didn't like it. Gone back to being a mage thief.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,850
    I find after the first few levels the fmt levels up very often, with regular small boosts, instead of the odd big one.

    If you do an illusionist multi, you still get specialist bonus spells, and their is usually a good alternative to the best necromancy spells you miss out on.

  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,206
    DreadKhan wrote: »
    If you do an illusionist multi, you still get specialist bonus spells, and their is usually a good alternative to the best necromancy spells you miss out on.

    Don't you have to be a gnome to do that? I don't think I could bring myself to be a gnome.

    Aerakar
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 589
    edited August 23
    If you feel multiclassed mages advance too slowly and don't feel mage-y enough, but generalist mages can't access enough spells and specialist mages are too flimsy in combat, and sorcerers aren't enjoyable either, it may be that mages just don't mesh very well with your playstyle. You might consider a half-orc fighter/cleric with 19 strength as they would have the melee staying power you require plus a decent though admittedly less offense-oriented spell selection.

    If you do try another multiclassed mage, I'd suggest leaning into the special advantages those combinations offer rather than risking disappointment that they can't fully handle the role of pure mage. Pure mages throw damage-dealing spells like magic missile and fireball around the battlefield secure in the knowledge that their high caster level gives them enough damage dice to meaningfully contribute to a party. MTs and FMTs don't have the caster level to be able to do that. Instead MTs immobilize their enemies with sleep, chromatic orb, emotion hopelessness, etc and then use invisibility as a way to insta-backstab, while FMTs primarily use magic to protect themselves from damage (mirror image, stoneskin, etc) while leveraging their 18/XX strength to dish out high melee DPS. Both are very strong and capable characters but only if you leverage their synergies rather than treating them as pure mages. Good luck!

    Post edited by jsaving on
    Permidion_StarkQuartz
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,850
    DreadKhan wrote: »
    If you do an illusionist multi, you still get specialist bonus spells, and their is usually a good alternative to the best necromancy spells you miss out on.

    Don't you have to be a gnome to do that? I don't think I could bring myself to be a gnome.

    Yeah, they are short and silly, but they do get a big buff on their saves vs spells, and illusionist multis are good at magery, having similar spells per day vs a vanilla mage.

    Crazy idea, but I/C is fairly solid, and you will likely be primarily a mage, with a few tricks up the sleeve. You can even use armour early on, as Command alone is a hell of a spell at lvl 1 for survival, switching to robes as needed.

    Permidion_StarkQuartz
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,206
    edited August 21
    DreadKhan wrote: »
    DreadKhan wrote: »
    If you do an illusionist multi, you still get specialist bonus spells, and their is usually a good alternative to the best necromancy spells you miss out on.

    Don't you have to be a gnome to do that? I don't think I could bring myself to be a gnome.

    Yeah, they are short and silly, but they do get a big buff on their saves vs spells, and illusionist multis are good at magery, having similar spells per day vs a vanilla mage.

    Crazy idea, but I/C is fairly solid, and you will likely be primarily a mage, with a few tricks up the sleeve. You can even use armour early on, as Command alone is a hell of a spell at lvl 1 for survival, switching to robes as needed.

    I'd love to be an illusionist/thief but only if I could be human. I'm using a tweak pack that allows humans to multiclass but for some reason it stops short of allowing them to make like a gnome.

    My latest incarnation is as a Chaotic Neutral mage thief and I am enjoying playing him so far. He chose Friends as one of his starting spells and he used it to good effect to persuade Fuller to give him a nice +1 dagger and to talk Thurston and 'Lovey' into leaving some extra jewelry in the chest in their room. He is currently doing the rounds in Beregost stealing everything that isn't screwed down:
    tczat4o6cig5.png

    Not a bad haul. And I haven't even been to the big house yet. Mind you, I am running out of pockets so I am either going to have to suffer Neera's company for long enough to rob her blind or find a way into the Friendly Arm Inn where I happen to know there is a gem bag for sale (thanks to EET Tweaks).

    GusindaAerakar
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 976
    From what I understand the ability to multiclass illusionist is hard-coded into the gnome, hard or impossible to recreate through mods.

    Permidion_Stark
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,850
    Well, I think its easy to change the avatar to 'look' human with Keeper... how will you prove your a gnome, if you look fully human? You can also drop the int 1 and raise the wis 1, and adjust thief scores as needed. Just ignore that your race is referred to gnome on the sheet. ;)

    Permidion_Stark
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,206
    DreadKhan wrote: »
    Well, I think its easy to change the avatar to 'look' human with Keeper... how will you prove your a gnome, if you look fully human? You can also drop the int 1 and raise the wis 1, and adjust thief scores as needed. Just ignore that your race is referred to gnome on the sheet. ;)

    But the turnip breath is a giveaway . . .

    DreadKhanChroniclerBalrog99Aerakar
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 4,891
    I just leveled up in a particularly heroic manner. The bards will be singing songs about this one:
    4ffz71byjmma.png

    They'll be singing about your patience, that's for sure...

    Permidion_StarkDreadKhanAerakar
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,206
    My Mage Thief was doing so well, he was fourth level in both classes, he had just bought himself a Greenstone Amulet, Aule's Staff +3 and the Robe of the Neutral Archmagi and he was feeling like he could take on the world. Unfortunately, it turned out he couldn't take on Teyngan, Zekar and Jemby who made him look pretty silly because I didn't notice that the protections from the amulet had ended so Jemby horrified him and he went running round bumping into gnolls and war dogs. An ignominious end.

    So back to Candlekeep and I rolled an elven FMT and set out again. It turned out to be my shortest run so far because traveling from Beregost to the Coast Way I ran into a spot of bother . . .
    truiiqcsnj86.png
    [/spoiler

    AerakarDJKajuruBalrog99
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 472
    Later that evening...

    Bandit #5: "So I kicked 'im in the head till he was dead! Nyahahaha!"

    Permidion_StarkBalrog99
  • SandkatzeSandkatze Member Posts: 34
    seeing the word "shortest", it seems outrunning them with luck didn't happen. my condolences :(

    Permidion_Stark
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,206
    Sandkatze wrote: »
    seeing the word "shortest", it seems outrunning them with luck didn't happen. my condolences :(

    At least it taught me a valuable lesson. The same encounter just happened to my FMT on my latest run through but she survived because she always makes herself invisible before traveling between maps so when she got surrounded by bandits who wanted to turn her into a pin-cushion she could just stroll on by:
    ykzuuoas1y0h.png

    SkatanAerakar
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,830
    edited September 6
    jmerry wrote: »
    The primary benefit of a specialist mage, that of +1 spell slot per spell level, is a big deal. It increases your arsenal by about a third in BG1, weighted toward your highest level spells. Being able to use two of your highest spell level instead of one when you first get them is a huge deal.
    Thanks for your whole post, but this in particular. This is why I can't stand playing a generalist mage outside of a multi-class. Why anyone would ever go for a generalist mage is beyond me--I understand if you're a bit OCD, you want access to every spell--just go for a Wild Mage then, they're much more fun and they get the +1 spell slot.

    My two bits:

    Generalist Mage sucks.

    Abjurer is probably the very worst, since you specialize in a bunch of defensive spells and lose some other defensive ones, with zero saving throw bonuses. Neat! Transmuter (Alteration) would be fun with a novelty build (Slow everything!) but I wouldn't advise it for any player without loads of Infinity Engine spell knowledge. Conjurer is a good choice because you don't lose out on many meaningful spells that can't be replaced with clerics, thieves, and shop-keeps; and casting Grease, Glitterdust, and Flame Arrow with saving throw penalties is sweet. Diviner is just one of those things that's amazing in tabletop D&D and really lame in a video game due to the limitations of the medium, and losing out on the majority of summons is pretty bad. Necromancer always makes for fun role-playing and you will surely subject crowds to insane amounts of damage via Skull Trap and Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting, arguably two of the very best area of effect damage spells in the game. Illusionist is useful just for Gnome multi-class reasons, otherwise skip it since you lose some good spells and gain very little since the school is primarily defensive (very few saving throw bonuses). Invoker is fun for blasting crap with greater success, and it makes the Web spell even nastier. Enchanter is actually a baller option, because pretty much all of their spells require a saving throw, so you're looking at a great crowd control mage at the expense of some raw firepower. That said lots of the wands have Evocation spells, so you can make up for it a bit that way. The main issue with an Enchanter is they will lose their unique edge further down the line--I'm of the opinion they're the very best specialist in BG1, but a little ways in BGII and those spells get less and less useful.

    Wild Mage gets you the +1 spell slot and the entire spellbook by giving you three exclusive spells. Wild Mage is a lot of fun and lets you memorize every type of spell, but don't use them for a no-reload/limited-reload run unless you're a masochist.

    Sorcerer is wonderful if you're already very familiar with the entire spellbook in the BG series and you're comfortable limiting yourself to just five spells from each level. Pretty easy task if you're comfortable, but if you're looking to experiment, this is the worst option.

    Dragon Disciples are basically Sorcerers but worse, with the random quirks of additional health, potential regeneration, and ooooo breathing fire neato burrito. The additional health and potential regeneration aren't terribly useful on a class that won't be getting into many physical fights, soooooo it seems a little pointless outside of role-playing reasons.

    ---

    But honestly a quick read-through this thread kinda shows me your biggest enemy is probably restart-itis (been there). Pick a solid option and go with it best you can. Personally I'd say pick anything that isn't Transmuter, Diviner, or Dragon Disciple.

    Also why you gotta hate on gnomes bruh?

    Aerakar
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 976
    Near as I can gather, looking at the charts, a normal mage multiclass would have 2 level 9 spell slots at the Throne of Bhaal experience cap, so the extra spell slot gnomes get when they multiclass illusionist really is a pretty big deal through the whole series.

    Quartz
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 4,891
    edited September 7
    Necromancer is also a great option for dualing into cleric. It's a slog but if you dual at level 16 you get Horrid Wilting and when you get level your cleric to 17 the Necromancer bonus makes your cleric spells a LOT better! Enchanter isn't bad to dual to cleric either (although the high charisma requirement isn't optimal). You don't get any arcane enchantment spells after spell level 5 so you can dual earlier (level 10 or 11 works well). The few hit points you lose out on can be made up with find familiar so it's a pretty good deal all the way around...

    Chronicler
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,206
    Quartz wrote: »
    But honestly a quick read-through this thread kinda shows me your biggest enemy is probably restart-itis (been there). Pick a solid option and go with it best you can. Personally I'd say pick anything that isn't Transmuter, Diviner, or Dragon Disciple.

    Restartitis hasn't really been the problem - dyinigitis has been. I did abandon a couple of characters at the start of a run because I didn't like them but the rest of them died of natural causes (well, natural for the Sword Coast anyway).

    I'm playing solo, no re-loads, no potions, scrolls or wands because I like to rely as much as possible on my characters' abilities rather than their equipment. This makes it quite hard to stay alive at low levels. I have however managed to keep my latest incarnation - a Mage/Thief - alive long enough to clear the Nashkel Mines. However, I couldn't work out a way for her to take on Sil and the Sirines (I can't find a way for her to protect herself from Dire Charm) so she just turned herself invisible and strolled past them to get into Black Alaric's Cave and snaffle the Manual of Bodily Health. So now she has a completely unnecessary extra point of constitution:
    h81avv9hpusr.png
    39854eutqhl3.png

    Now she is heading off to look for a bandit camp . . .

    Aerakar
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 4,891
    Quartz wrote: »
    But honestly a quick read-through this thread kinda shows me your biggest enemy is probably restart-itis (been there). Pick a solid option and go with it best you can. Personally I'd say pick anything that isn't Transmuter, Diviner, or Dragon Disciple.

    Restartitis hasn't really been the problem - dyinigitis has been. I did abandon a couple of characters at the start of a run because I didn't like them but the rest of them died of natural causes (well, natural for the Sword Coast anyway).

    I'm playing solo, no re-loads, no potions, scrolls or wands because I like to rely as much as possible on my characters' abilities rather than their equipment. This makes it quite hard to stay alive at low levels. I have however managed to keep my latest incarnation - a Mage/Thief - alive long enough to clear the Nashkel Mines. However, I couldn't work out a way for her to take on Sil and the Sirines (I can't find a way for her to protect herself from Dire Charm) so she just turned herself invisible and strolled past them to get into Black Alaric's Cave and snaffle the Manual of Bodily Health. So now she has a completely unnecessary extra point of constitution:
    h81avv9hpusr.png
    39854eutqhl3.png

    Now she is heading off to look for a bandit camp . . .

    Too bad you're not allowed a cleric/mage/thief. That would be perfect for your solo no-reload requirements. I've often wondered why half-elves and gnomes aren't offered that multi-class...

    Permidion_StarkAerakar
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 589
    The BG/BG2 devs intended to offer all the multiclass options available in AD&D's Players Handbook and no others. They mistakenly omitted fighter/mage/druid but included all the rest. Cleric/mage/thief was never an option because Gary Gygax felt all three-class combinations would naturally include fighter as their base.

    Quartz
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 976
    jsaving wrote: »
    The BG/BG2 devs intended to offer all the multiclass options available in AD&D's Players Handbook and no others. They mistakenly omitted fighter/mage/druid but included all the rest. Cleric/mage/thief was never an option because Gary Gygax felt all three-class combinations would naturally include fighter as their base.

    What was Gary's reason for no fighter/thief/cleric?

  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 4,891
    jsaving wrote: »
    The BG/BG2 devs intended to offer all the multiclass options available in AD&D's Players Handbook and no others. They mistakenly omitted fighter/mage/druid but included all the rest. Cleric/mage/thief was never an option because Gary Gygax felt all three-class combinations would naturally include fighter as their base.

    Oh, man. Now I really want a fighter/mage/druid! Was druid/mage also an option? That would kick elven arse!

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 976
    Balrog99 wrote: »
    jsaving wrote: »
    The BG/BG2 devs intended to offer all the multiclass options available in AD&D's Players Handbook and no others. They mistakenly omitted fighter/mage/druid but included all the rest. Cleric/mage/thief was never an option because Gary Gygax felt all three-class combinations would naturally include fighter as their base.

    Oh, man. Now I really want a fighter/mage/druid! Was druid/mage also an option? That would kick elven arse!

    My understanding is that one of the half elves special traits was that they could take any available multiclass combination, and substitute cleric for druid, or fighter for ranger.

    This is only partially implemented in Baldur's Gate, with the Fighter/Druid, and the Ranger/Cleric, but things like Ranger/Thief, Druid/Mage, and even Fighter/Mage/Druid should be possible under pen and paper rules.

    Might and Guile implements a few extra Ranger Multiclass kits if I recall. They're technically Fighter Multiclasses modified to emulate the ranger characteristics. They do not however implement a Fighter/Mage/Druid.

    Balrog99
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,830
    Also while we're having this class conversation, an interesting thing to note is that in AD&D 1e, halflings could be druids. A lot of class-race restrictions for AD&D 1e and 2e were very similar, but that one was changed.

    ChroniclerAerakar
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 589
    edited September 9
    Chronicler wrote: »
    What was Gary's reason for no fighter/thief/cleric?
    Only elves and half-elves had the ability to triple-class in 2nd edition. Unfortunately neither race can combine thief and cleric which meant no fighter/thief/cleric either.

    ChroniclerAerakar
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