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Scs without mage ?

Is scs playable without mage ? I always have one, but now i try something new And create an arcane less party.

Comments

  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 713
    It may ultimately be doable, but you’d have to use alternate tactics to overcome enemy mages. Having an inquisitor would be handy. Divine summons to tank mages, etc. A druid with bees would help. Wizard slayers can be handy, too, apparently, though I’ve yet to try one myself. It will be very challenging, but if that’s what you’re up for, give it a try.

    semiticgodAerakar
  • Ludwig_IILudwig_II Member Posts: 213
    I was planning to do solo assassin with Scs, but looks like it will be quite a challenge then.

    Aerakar
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,107
    Solo with SCS is pretty hard on most classes. Rogues have a somewhat easier time than most single-class characters because of UAI though, which allows you to get around the need for a mage a lot of the time (wands, scrolls, etc.).

    It also depends on what strategies you allow yourself. If you have no problem going AFK to let enemy buffs/summons time out, that's another level of difficulty removed. But it doesn't work everywhere.

    Mages are the biggest threat in BG2 by far, so it all comes down to how good you are at dealing with them. There are ways to handle them without entering into a wizardly arms race, even with SCS.

    In BG1, playing solo with SCS is absurdly hard, and requires liberal use of "creative" tactics. You may not be able to do everything, or do it the way you're used to.

    JuliusBorisov
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,845
    Playing BG1 solo is generally just about collecting per-charge items. Greenstone Amulet, One Gift Lost, Durlag's Goblet, wands, Ring of Energy, potions, Arrows of Dispelling/Detonation... A solo no-reload BG1 run is basically a scavenger hunt with a few brief fights in between travel times.

    StummvonBordwehrleeuxJuliusBorisov
  • StromaelStromael Member Posts: 185
    edited October 29
    I'm certain it can be done. One day I will also make the attempt; not solo, though.

    My conclusions are that success later in the trilogy will hinge on disabling enemy spell-casters, and in particular Mages. This will likely mean heavy reliance on spell disruptive techniques: Silence 15' Radius, Insect Swarm/Plague, Wizard Slayer Spell Failure, and Poison from special abilities (Assassin, Blackguard). Another crucial aspect will be illusion dispelling. Either Priest/Inquisitor True Sight will be needed, or a Thief with high Detect Illusion.

    A party that ought to give a decent chance might look like:

    Inquisitor
    Assassin (11) -> Fighter
    Wizard Slayer (13) -> Thief
    Totemic Druid
    Priest of Lathander
    Barbarian

    You'd have damage control from the Barb and the TD summons, high-level Druids also get Earth Elemental form in SCS with superb damage resistance, the TD can pass Fire Seeds to the WS and Assassin to allow their spell failures to bypass weapon protection spells (just get the Mage in the area of effect, same goes with Arrows of Detonation, though they're very limited in number; you could of course use them with Vhailor's Helm), your two Thieves can build up Detect Illusion, and the Inquisitor can get the whole party out of tight pinches with its overpowered Dispel and True Sight.

    If you want more offensive power you could swap the Barb or Inquisitor for an Archer, who can also benefit from the Fire Seeds when applying Strength Drain with Called Shot.

    Disclaimer: loosely basing this on @semiticgod 's successful NR run involving the WS/Assassin/Druid part of the team. Still, I recall she had some seriously tough moments in the ToB part of the story, with several chunked characters.

    Post edited by Stromael on
    semiticgodgorgonzolaJuliusBorisov
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,739
    Pretty sure solo no-reload SCS, Ascension, Insane has been done with every class but druid. So yes, possible.

    JuliusBorisov
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,107
    edited October 26
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Pretty sure solo no-reload SCS, Ascension, Insane has been done with every class but druid. So yes, possible.
    Glad to see my enduring disdain for druids is not just personal bias but clearly an established objective fact.

    Back into your holes, treehuggers!

    OrlonKronsteen
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,845
    The situation has changed now that SCS has IWD spells. Entropy Shield and Impervious Sanctity of mind give clerics and druids the equivalent of SI: Abjuration and Spell Shield, as well as obviating the need for the Shield of Reflection.

    The power balance between druids and clerics has shifted, though it's not clear in which direction. Giant Insect and Static Charge are great for druids, but clerics get Blood Rage for skeletons and Divine Protection, as well as Symbol of Hopelessness and Prayer+Recitation.

    BlackravenStromaelStummvonBordwehrJuliusBorisov
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,107
    I haven't looked into the IWD spells yet, mostly because I'm on the Spell Revisions train and I'm not sure how well those two would work together. From what I remember in IWD, some of the spells were quite absurdly powerful.

    Just what BG2 needs, more power for casters ¬_¬

  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 1,013
    SCS doesn't install IWD spells if SR is installed because of the design mismatch. I'm also on the SR train but the IWD spells do at least give druids some interesting tools to play with, it was quite fun using one in IWD.

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 945
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Pretty sure solo no-reload SCS, Ascension, Insane has been done with every class but druid. So yes, possible.
    Glad to see my enduring disdain for druids is not just personal bias but clearly an established objective fact.

    Back into your holes, treehuggers!

    The LoB/SCS/Ascension noreload has been done with a dual-classed druid, from what I remember.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,107
    chimaera wrote: »
    The LoB/SCS/Ascension noreload has been done with a dual-classed druid, from what I remember.
    So it's been done with some other class, and druid just went along for the ride.

    Typical! :P

    Stromael
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 690
    Stromael wrote: »
    I'm certain it can be done. One day I will also make the attempt; not solo, though.

    My conclusions are that success later in the trilogy will hinge on disabling enemy spell-casters, and in particular Mages. This will likely mean heavy reliance on spell disruptive techniques: Silence 15' Radius, Insect Swarm/Plague, Wizard Slayer Spell Failure, and Poison from special abilities (Assassin, Blackguard). Another crucial aspect will be illusion dispelling. Either Priest/Inquisitor True Sight will be needed, or a Thief with high Detect Illusion.

    A party that ought to give a decent chance might look like:

    Inquisitor
    Assassin (11) -> Fighter
    Wizard Slayer (13) -> Thief
    Totemic Druid
    Priest of Lathander
    Barbarian

    You'd have damage control from the Barb and the TD summons, high-level Druids also get Earth Elemental form in SCS with superb damage resistance, the TD can pass Fire Seeds to the WS and Assassin to allow their spell failures to bypass weapon protection spells (just get the Mage in the area of effect, same goes with Arrows of Detonation, though they're very limited in number; you could of course use them with Vhailor's Helm), your two Thieves can build up Detect Illusion, and the Inquisitor can get the whole party out of tight pinches with its overpowered Dispel and True Sight.

    If you want more offensive power you could swap the Barb or Inquisitor for an Archer, who can also benefit from the Fire Seeds when applying Strength Drain with Called Shot.

    Disclaimer: loosely basing this on @semiticgod 's successful NR run involving the WS/Assassin/Druid part of the team. Still, I recall she had some seriously tough moments in the ToB part of the story, with several chunked characters.

    I like the party idea and give a try it, but maybe use blackguard instead of assassin fighter.
    I really thinking after that, if its too tedious, to lower the prot from magic weapons enchantment level protection to +3 only, its just too strong for a lvl 6 spell. Maybe redesing it to something else that add absurd AC instead of immunity. I always bothered that spell.

  • StromaelStromael Member Posts: 185
    Depending on whether or not you go through BG1, you may miss the Assassin. You'd benefit from a Thief early on, when you can't absorb trap damage/effects as easily with spells. If you do take the Blackguard instead then I'd recommend dualling the Wizard Slayer as early as you sensibly can, e.g., level 3, 7 or maybe 9, to minimise the missing Thief.

    With SCS Icewind Dale spells your Cleric can get tanking with (Greater) Shield of Lathander.

    The Inquisitor should be able to nullify PFMW, as long as the enemy Mage isn't under SI:A. However (and this is serious cheese), in case it wasn't clear in my previous comment, any weapon with an explosive effect (Arrows of Detonation, Fire Seeds) will have its area damage bypass any weapons protections (PFMW, Mantle, etc.) as long as it was aimed at a non-weapons-immune target. A good friendly target can be the Flesh Golem summoned from the Manual, since it's immune to the damage type (Fire) but not to magical weapons. Position your friendly Golem by the weapons-immune enemy Mage, let fly with your exploding Seeds/Arrows, and the damage sneaks past the Mage's immunity. Worse: on-hit effects like Spell Failure, Poison or Stat Drain are also applied. Suddenly that enemy Mage is unable to renew their defenses or throw out the damage, and 4 rounds later (when the PFMW wears off), they're a sitting duck. Like I said, serious cheese.

    semiticgodDanacmgorgonzolaJuliusBorisov
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 690
    Can scs ai mage run out of spells ?

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,107
    Danacm wrote: »
    Can scs ai mage run out of spells ?
    They can. It takes quite a while, though. It's usually easier to just kill them rather than try and run them out.

    If you want a REAL challenge, try and run out Elminster's spells.

    DanacmgorgonzolaJuliusBorisov
  • StromaelStromael Member Posts: 185
    My usual tactic for killing Dushai for her Ring of Free Action involves charming her with Algernon's Cloak and then emptying her spellbook, cancelling each spell before it completes casting. She's not a particularly high level Cleric/Illusionist, but she seems to have a lot of spells. It takes a long time...

    DanacmJuliusBorisovsemiticgodgorgonzola
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 690
    But scs fair isnt it ? So mages doesnt have more spells than allowed ?

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,433
    edited November 8
    The other problem with SCS mages is that they have access to sequencers - and you can't use these even when the mage is charmed. That does mean that attacking a mage even after their spell book is empty can be a dicey business. If you don't want to use buffs (and I tend not to) you can make the encounter relatively safe by wearing the charmed mage down against an enemy and/or having a handy escape route, such as dodging into a house. Neither is a sure protection, due to the speed with which sequencers can be cast though, so where possible I would finish off the mage with something like LMD.

    StummvonBordwehrJuliusBorisovgorgonzola
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,107
    Honestly, just kill the mage. Dispel their spell protections, dispel their combat protections, whack over head until dead. Takes a while but works.

    gorgonzola
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,845
    I haven't used mages to kill mages in a really long time. I've just found ways to get around their defenses, or using multiple invisibility options or summons to drain or dodge their spells, so I don't need mage levels in the party to deal with them.

    Wizard Slayer spell failure, Energy Blades or darts from the Cloak of Stars to get past Improved Mantle, nonmagical darts (or something melee weapons, since SCS v32 has Protection from Normal Missiles more often) to get past PFMW, the Ring of Energy to get past spell protections, backstabs before Stoneskin, and Death Fog or Cloudkill or Sunfire or Cone of Cold to get past MGOI and GOI, are all great ways to handle mages without needing Breach or other anti-mage attacks.

    StummvonBordwehrGrond0gorgonzola
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 711
    Normal mages that aren‘t immune to normal weapons are fine and easily dealt with. Liches and Rakshashas that can see through invisibility, can gain immunity to everything via PfMW, and are immune to differing spell levels... That’s when having Breach is useful. And Dragons, for whatever it’s worth.
    The greater problem with no arcane support is you also lose access to things like Death Spell, Improved Invisibility, Magic damage of any sort (I think Mordekainen’s swords are only killable with Shaman’s Spirit Fire without an arcane caster. Are there weapons with magic damage on-hit?), Improved Haste, some summoning spells, and crowd control like Slow and Greater Malison. Even @semiticgod ‘s list above includes Death fog, Cloudkill, Sunfire, and Cone of Cold as anti-mage spells, which are... mage spells. :tongue:
    I do like Stomael’s party, though, with a few possible substitutions of Avenger or Shaman instead of Totemic, Berserker or a monk instead of Barbarian, or a F/T multiclass instead of Assasin-Fighter dual.

    semiticgodStummvonBordwehrgorgonzola
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,845
    The Ring of Energy is a good option for killing Magical Swords. It does also get past MGOI, if not Pro Magical Energy.

    I tend to wait out PFMW when it comes to rakshasas and liches. Thing is, now that SCS v32 mages use summoning spells instead of just offensive spells, it's no longer sufficient to just keep extra buffing spells to survive disablers or damage spells; you also need to be careful about getting overwhelmed by melee pressure.

    StummvonBordwehrStromaelAerakarDanacm
  • StromaelStromael Member Posts: 185
    Neverused wrote: »
    I think Mordekainen’s swords are only killable with Shaman’s Spirit Fire without an arcane caster. Are there weapons with magic damage on-hit?
    Does Larloch's Minor Drain deal magic damage? If so there's Foebane, and also the Bhaalspawn ability. (I can't currently check.)

    High level Thieves (I'm assuming arcane-casting Bards are out of the picture) can use Wands. Magic Missile for Mordy's, Spell Strike for Mages/Liches.

    Blackravensemiticgod
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 690
    Voidsword and hammer not use just magic dmg ?

    Blackravensemiticgod
  • ReticentReticent Member Posts: 70
    There are a number of IWD priest and druid spells that cause magic damage. If SCS has a faithful implementation of those, I don't see Mordy's swords being an obstacle.

    Also, Slay Living does magic damage. Maybe not enough to really deal with the swords though. Not sure what the damage on the cause wounds series is typed as, but maybe those too?

    Stromael
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