Kivan (and Jaheira/Khalid) quest timers and juggling party members?
BGMatt
Member Posts: 30
We had Kivan join our party and now realise he has a quest timer after wandering around for a bit longer than we should have - yet we have had no info on the whereabouts of how to actually complete his quest. Is that information revealed as a part of the main quest, or do we just need to go about exploring to find it?
In addition to that, we're just about to pick up Jaheira and Khalid (with the hope that progressing the main storyline might reveal info about Kivan's quest), but Kivan is the party member we'd like to kick (we're playing mulit-player with a couple of people so we don't have as much space to play with for NPCs). At the end of our last game we spoke to Jaheira and Khalid and let them join our party just to see what the quest was, but didn't save it so that we could figure out the best thing to do.
Any recommendations on how to juggle this? Would any of the following work?
Thanks!
In addition to that, we're just about to pick up Jaheira and Khalid (with the hope that progressing the main storyline might reveal info about Kivan's quest), but Kivan is the party member we'd like to kick (we're playing mulit-player with a couple of people so we don't have as much space to play with for NPCs). At the end of our last game we spoke to Jaheira and Khalid and let them join our party just to see what the quest was, but didn't save it so that we could figure out the best thing to do.
Any recommendations on how to juggle this? Would any of the following work?
- Can we leave Kivan in the Amn Inn until the next step of his quest is revealed by the party without him (we're fine to use console commands to stop his quest timer if necessary), and then go back and pick him up again.
- Leave Kivan in the Amn Inn until Jaheira and Khalid's quest is complete (looks like we just need to the Mayor of Nashkel, or is there more time sensitive stuff after that?).
- Can we just talk to Jaheira and Khalid but not take them into the party until Kivan's quest is done?
- Any other ways to deal with this?
Thanks!
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Comments
Kivan stay on party only after he battles with tazok.
About jaheira and kalhid (or monty/xzar) is enough enter nashkel town, see intro movie, then you can leave safetly.
Kivan's timer was bugged in the originals and never ended. I've never used him in the Enhanced Editions, where you must actually complete his quest in a timely fashion. So I've got no advice there.
From what I remember the "warning" upon joining is extremely vague ("he seems to be eager to do this" or something like that). Nobody tells you that the quest is basically linked to the main story line (which isn't the case with any other companion quest in BG1/2?) and that, if you pick him up that early, basically have no chance of finishing his quest, unless you're committed to a no-rest run and rushing the main quest.
Well, the game would be generally better without these timers (it makes no sense in BG1, where you're basically free to explore the land, and then out of nowhere are forced to commit to the main story line; and it's annoying in BG2, where you're bombarded with timed quests). Reassuring Kivan that the party is committed to his task should be enough - why would he leave? (Same with Viconia; why would you abandon the party that rescued you, just because its "rep" has become too high? I mean she literally almost died because she was on her own....)
#rant Sorry;)
As for your level, the game is pretty non-linear for 80-90% of it, you can just stumble on main quest plots while exploring up to a certain point. If you just go through the main quest, you'll hit the levels necessary to survive what comes next. Go up to the point where Kivan gets a crack at the guy he wants dead, then put everything on hold to explore as much as you want.
Khalid and Jaheira's as well as Xzar and Montaron's Timer is also strictly speaking tied to the main questline, but it's such a tiny quest it's barely worth mentioning. Meant more to helpfully point a new player in the direction of the main questline than anything else.
Dorn is a late addition to the game, but his questline requires you get access to the city of Baldur's Gate to complete it. Notably it gives a much longer timer than the original companion's questlines to accomodate this, but even then you don't want to dilly dally too much.
I am a bit conflicted about the timer myself. Are they a hassle? Yes. Does it suck when your party member desert just because you took a detour, maybe even because of another companion? Yes. But same as with the within-party conflict it helps the world not turn entirely around you, the player. It suggests your companions have agency of their own. It is good wordbuilding.
Even look at the statement make here:
"Makes no sense" as used here is purely in terms of gameplay. It makes perfect sense from the story, the perspective of the NPCs and the worldbuilding.
I think the game has some elements that are individually annoying, but if you take them all out you would lose something valuable... a depth to the world that would be missing.
Even if it's a MMO I think the success of WoW classic is due to the same reason. They eliminated the hassles and streamlined a lot of things but lost something in the process.
EDIT: I am not trying to sound like I am a more hardcore player. I've manipulated some of the timers via console or Keeper myself in the past.
You might not be able to wander through every wilderness area in the game but you certainly don't have to rush the main quest. I've recruited Kivan, hung around the Beregost area for a few days, gone down to Nashkel, detour to the Gnoll Stronghold, back up to Beregost to buy more stuff, return to Nashkel via the area north east of Nashkel, complete the mines, back up to Beregost and then over to Larswood or Peldvale and finally the bandit camp.
There probably wasn't time to go off seeing much else of the world but that's a reasonable chunk of the game done without feeling like I was rushing anything.
From a RP perspective, you want to be following the main quest fairly quickly after the mines anyway - you'd want to get to Beregost before news of the mines reaches Tranzig in case he disappears leaving you with no further leads. After that, you know roughly where to find the bandits and Kivan obviously wouldn't be happy at that point if you decide to go on a merry jaunt along the coast for a few weeks.
I don't think they make sense the way they're implemented. Again, see the issue with Viconia; it makes no sense for a drow (!) to abandon the group if that leaves her stranded on the surface (i.e. certain death). And you can't do anything against it. It would be logical to be able to convince Kivan to stay and persuade him that you're still committed to his task. No character (unless they're an extreme version of CN or lawful stupid) would pursue their own agenda with complete disregard of charname's/the group's interests, especially if that endangers their own interests (I mean Kivan is part of a powerful group - he can't fulfill his task on his own). This makes the timer simply a tool for annoying the player.
"Safety of the group".
Like, we provide a certain amount of protection against mob justice, but the only reason Viconia's "safe" fighting demons with you is you reload every time she dies.
Not everything's a persuasion roll either. Some stuff isn't up for negotiation. Kivan's pretty dead set on his quest for vengeance and he doesn't necessarily wanna dilly dally with you while you explore the whole sword coast. He may not be able to achieve his goal on his own but you're hardly the only band of capable adventurers in the sword coast. He can find one that can stay on task if he needs to.
Regarding Kivan: I think you're sugar coating the game's shortcomings. I'm all for role playing around the logical errors of the game, but everything you said in your post is your opinion and doesn't feature in the game (I *think*, this is my first time with Kivan, but there's basically no NPC interaction without the NPC mod?). If the game punishes you (and losing a party member is big punishment), then the game should make more of an effort of telling you why and how to prevent it. BG1/2 are sometimes very unforgiving, because you run into disasters that you could have only prevented with hindsight. Later games (Kotor, NWN, Mass Effect) aren't really like this anymore.
Literally no part of BG1 or 2 is what you'd call "Intuitive Game Design". Just figuring out how Thac0 and Armor Class work alone is an elaborate process for new players which the game provides little to no instruction in. And that's just step 1 of figuring out the game.
But the companions quests I think are a pretty mild example of that. You walk up to the guy, he says "I wanna kill bandits" and joins your party. You go too long without dealing with the bandit situation, he says "I'm leaving because we're not killing enough bandits". The game might not have BG2's elaborate dialogue trees but there's enough dialogue to communicate what's going on there.
The only one I can think of who's particularly esoteric is Coran, who joins your party saying he's been hired to kill a wyvern, but neglects to mention that it's not enough for you to just kill it with him, you must take its skull to some random priest he's never mentioned to collect payment with him, or he'll leave.
Wait, what? Its just "lower numbers better". Its golf, and not remotely complicated. I learned this game when I was 8.
With all due respect, as somebody who's been playing this game since you were eight, I think you may have glossed over some of the pitfalls of learning its mechanics.
The game came with a manual the size of a novel and expected you to read it. Its mechanics are notoriously Opaque. "Low Numbers Better" would at least be a simple premise to wrap your head around if the numbers were as low as they seemed at all times. But of course every kind of armor had modifiers against every kind of weapon that weren't even displayed in the originals. Attacking out of stealth, attacking somebody who's unarmed, both these modify your "Low Numbers" in ways that aren't really explained anywhere. Certain diseases modify your Thac0, and certain others do not, while both display the same. Those same diseases can also sometimes stack on top of themselves and not display any differently. So on and so forth.
Like every week the Baldur's Gate subreddit has some new player come in and need some basic mechanic explained to them. The game doesn't explain it to them. The game doesn't really explain much of anything, but it does lay out the basic situation with the companion quests for you. They have some simple goal they express when you recruit them into the party, and if you don't help them with that goal they leave.
I replied to the only example you gave. Nothing more.
All that said, it somehow works, and you do eventually get a feel for how the numbers will work out...which all things considered I think is more enjoyable than something that is too easily deciphered because I know I'm just to prone to meta-game the hell out of it then.
With regards to the RP side of quest timers etc.. we have made the decision to allow ourselves to overrule the game with console commands/EE Keeper when we think that the constraints of the game mechanics don't allow us the flexibility that P&P D&D would. Kivan's quest is one example, it literally just consists of, "hunting bandits", which he provides no clues as to how to find, neither does he mention a timeline (other than he has been doing this for months already), nor are we provided with the ability to discuss these things with him and negotiate alternatives or temporary delays.
When we got the quest we assumed the bandits were nearby, so we scoured the map screens around where we found him, and just got ourselves into a constant stream of battles that were quite problematic for our party...so we ended up resting a LOT, and way too much time passed as a result..at which point we were in Nashkel (dropping off Montaron and Xzar), and then Carnival, all just looking for leads to who Kivan was after.
After all that he started complaining. What exactly does he think he's going to do better by himself than systematically searching nearby countryside with a group, then moving on to nearby towns to look for leads? If he actually had better ideas (which I doubt, since he said he had been doing this for months alone!) then we would follow his lead, but no, he's silent until he complains. In P&P D&D there's no way that someone would give up after such a little amount of time searching for something that is central to their character, especially when the adventurers you joined were ONLY trying to solve your quest and were not wasting time doing other things. There's literally no way for players at that point to know that the main quest has to be progressed to finish Kivan's quest, so we decided to kill two birds with one stone and try to find information on the Bandits in Nashkel whilst dropping off Montaron and Xzar).
A major disadvantage for us is that we have limited time now as adults, and we live in different time zones, so it will literally take us a few years to play through BG1 + BG2 and the expansions, so we want to make the most of what will likely be a single play through.
Now (BGEE) I never take him and this thread makes realize that it's because of the timer...
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/63003/quest-timers
Kivan's quest timer depending on the chapter you recruit him in:
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/702764/#Comment_702764
Even before the EE fix, the issue with Kivan had been present: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/230/request-modify-kivans-bandit-timer-mechanic-to-allow-for-more-flexibility-less-stress