Powerful magic! Do you enjoy?
SorcererV1ct0r
Member Posts: 2,176
in Off-Topic
Some examples of powerful magic IMO
On Baldur's Gate/Neverwinter Nights, Finger of Death OHK enemies who fails a save. Phantasmal killer is a tier 4 spell that does the same but allows a WIS and a FORT save to OHK the enemy. On non TTRPG based games, Gothic 1 had Death to the undead(ohk any undead) as a circle 4 spell. It has a high charging time but allow no saves. VtMB has blood boil that not only OHK most targets but also transform then into blood grenades who damages nearby enemies.
Arcanum had a more powerful version. Disintegrate. It not only can be used on living but can also be used on objects, allowing you to disintegrate heavy fortificated doors and access areas that you would't had access
About army summoning spells, Gothic 1/2 had it and 3 limited to one instance of summoning, except by army of darkness, you can't have multiple summons. Pathfinder Kingmaker has animate dead which creates d4+2 undeads or 3~6. Each skeleton is if i remember correctly CR 7(cr = challenge ratting). You can even summon a Thanadaemon which has the same CR of a adult dragon(cr = 13),
Charm AND dominate spells are a necessity on ToEE. Mainly once you reach the temple. Charm is a tier 1 spell who made possible to solo icewind dale. Without that spell, there are no way to solo IWD on low levels as a arcane caster.
Might & Magic VI has a dark magic spell called Armageddon. It deals 50 + Dark Magic skill damage(a lot) on everything on the map(including allies and NPC's and your own party). Dragon's Breath also is so powerful that i once time OHKilled a high level enemy and my party with the AoE damage because i miscalculated the distance. And M&M VI has finger of death too that can OHK anything that is not MAG immune.
Enemy "halting" spells like Bigby's crushing hand on NWN1 are amazing too. Ice Prison on Pathfinder Kingmaker is my favorite 5th tier spell by far. On Gothic 3, Water Mages with Ice Lance can prevent almost all enemies except bigger ones with high cold resistance from even doing any damage. On G3 i love to freeze enemies and cast ice explosion on then.
Once you reach end game and learn HAILSTORM, you can do pretty dope things, like nuke a orc army at distance
What about shapeshift spells? On PF?KM you can even assume creature forms like a SILVER dragon and raise a thanadaemon army
Teleportation spells are another amazing thing. On arcanum, you can travel everywhere. On M&M VI, you can place beacons and teleport back any time. Morrowind had mark/recall spells and divine intervention too.
What do you think about this games with really powerful magic?
- ohk spells(finger of death on nwn1/blood boil on vtmb/disintegrate - arcanum)
- Town nuking spells(hailstorm on g3)
- dominate spells(Dominate monster on nwn)
- army summoning spells(army of darkness on g1/g2)
- "freezing" spells(ice lance on g3)
- Teleportation spells
On Baldur's Gate/Neverwinter Nights, Finger of Death OHK enemies who fails a save. Phantasmal killer is a tier 4 spell that does the same but allows a WIS and a FORT save to OHK the enemy. On non TTRPG based games, Gothic 1 had Death to the undead(ohk any undead) as a circle 4 spell. It has a high charging time but allow no saves. VtMB has blood boil that not only OHK most targets but also transform then into blood grenades who damages nearby enemies.
Arcanum had a more powerful version. Disintegrate. It not only can be used on living but can also be used on objects, allowing you to disintegrate heavy fortificated doors and access areas that you would't had access
About army summoning spells, Gothic 1/2 had it and 3 limited to one instance of summoning, except by army of darkness, you can't have multiple summons. Pathfinder Kingmaker has animate dead which creates d4+2 undeads or 3~6. Each skeleton is if i remember correctly CR 7(cr = challenge ratting). You can even summon a Thanadaemon which has the same CR of a adult dragon(cr = 13),
Charm AND dominate spells are a necessity on ToEE. Mainly once you reach the temple. Charm is a tier 1 spell who made possible to solo icewind dale. Without that spell, there are no way to solo IWD on low levels as a arcane caster.
Might & Magic VI has a dark magic spell called Armageddon. It deals 50 + Dark Magic skill damage(a lot) on everything on the map(including allies and NPC's and your own party). Dragon's Breath also is so powerful that i once time OHKilled a high level enemy and my party with the AoE damage because i miscalculated the distance. And M&M VI has finger of death too that can OHK anything that is not MAG immune.
Enemy "halting" spells like Bigby's crushing hand on NWN1 are amazing too. Ice Prison on Pathfinder Kingmaker is my favorite 5th tier spell by far. On Gothic 3, Water Mages with Ice Lance can prevent almost all enemies except bigger ones with high cold resistance from even doing any damage. On G3 i love to freeze enemies and cast ice explosion on then.
Once you reach end game and learn HAILSTORM, you can do pretty dope things, like nuke a orc army at distance
What about shapeshift spells? On PF?KM you can even assume creature forms like a SILVER dragon and raise a thanadaemon army
Teleportation spells are another amazing thing. On arcanum, you can travel everywhere. On M&M VI, you can place beacons and teleport back any time. Morrowind had mark/recall spells and divine intervention too.
What do you think about this games with really powerful magic?
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Comments
But things like spawning one meteor after another... with the surrounding completely intact and all? Hard pass for me. Any such evocation or conjuration spell should be handled no different than a natural calamity imho. Complete with involving innocent bystanders and damaged property.
Well, jokes apart, my preference of magic spells is not just how powerful they are, but how diverse and interesting the mechanics are. One of the reasons I absolutely HATE the magic system in vanilla Skyrim is because the spells are so frustratingly generic. (Thankfully, mods like Apocalypse solve that issue, which is one of the many reasons I always play modded Skyrim.)
I especially like when you are given the option to customise and create your own spells. My favourite system is in Tyranny, where you can combine various spell sigils to create whatever kind of spell suits your fancy. Same reason why I like games where metamagic is a thing.
Powerful magic is well and fine, but it has to be creative, not just generic stat upgrades to lower level spells. Not just increased area of effect or damage. Also the more choices for variety and customisation, the better the magic system impresses me.
By the way,
I have soloed IWD as a Dragon Disciple without ever using any Charm or Dominate spells. There are, in fact, other ways to do that.
1. How it works within the mechanics of the game you are playing.
2. How it works within the mechanics of the lore it exist in.
Do o like powerful magic, I don't know do fish like water? Do humans like to breath?
In context of a video game I prefer it to not break the game., And I've used many game breaking magical modes because I like being op or just don't like having to depend on non magical means... Seriously why would a archmage not have a spell to open locks?
Within the context of lore, I do wish they would stay true to it, but when writing and I'm guilty of this myself when writing comics, we can always pull a spell ex machina out of our behinds because hey, it's writing, not coding so there isn't anything forcing us to stick to the rules we created.
How did you killed most starting enemies? I tend to use a lot of domination spells when i try to solo any game...
You don't run into sleep immunity until you're already in Kuldahar.
@SorcererV1ct0r I was playing on insane difficulty, so doing all the town quests fetched me enough XP to get myself Mirror Image (level 2 spell) from the beginning. That, combined with shield and some kiting skills gave me enough survivability, to stay mostly safe from the majority of the early game mobs. Throwing daggers did the rest of the job.
Once I got skull trap though (it was pretty quick with the XP boost from insane difficulty and farming Yetis did the trick), there was no turning back.
Yep. Arcanum too. You can even use necromancy to talk with the dead and solve quests in a different way...
More than anything, I just want my mages to have more going for them than the standard "can use fire and ice and wears pointy hats". I want flavor, personality. Planescape: Torment did this very well with having the likes of Mebbeth as a teacher. Morrowind also accomplished this with the Telvanni.
While the game looks really interesting, I'd prefer not to test my magical powers by blowing up buildings. That's not very nice.
In 5th edition, Meteor Swarm calls down four meteors at four points of your choice within a mile. Each meteor deals 40d6 damage (20d6 fire, 20d6 bludgeoning) to everyone in a 40 foot radius! For comparison, that's the same total damage and radius as the epic spell Hellball in 3rd edition (10d6 fire, 10d6 acid, 10d6 electricity, and 10d6 sonic in a 40 foot radius).
Enemies got nerfed too on 5e... Almost all spells on 5e got a huge nerf in relation to 3.5e.
But believe on me. 5e is far better than 4e to be any type of arcanist. 5e still fun, but many things that was possible no long are. Don't get me wrong, a lv 17 warlock is still amazing. Is like having a squad of 4 crossbowman equipped with "force heavy crossbows" with unlimited ammo. But i really miss the trilling of facing a lich knowing that a finger of death can mean death and the PC being able to do the same...
5e did some great things.
But 5e also made the game too streamlined and bias in favor of the party... I mean, tomb of horrors on 2e and 3.5e is insane. On 5e, it is just a cakewalk...
But that's about all the good I can say about it. Now it's just a party based dungeon crawler board game. Everyone feels and acts the same The other versions of DnD were that, of course, but so much more.
I also consider the lack of number inflation it's greatest sin. A level 1 ranger has 4 attack bonus (oh, I'm sorry, proficiency bonus) less than a level 20 ranger. 4! This is the difference between a mortal who has reached the pinnacle of mortal achievement and a baby faced newbie who can barely hold a sword. The difference of a lifetime of combat is 4! to innate attack bonus. I'll take the +20 difference, thanks. Also using a single stat to cover so many different aspects of a character like the profiency bonus does is simple dumbing down. All characters now have less strengths and less weaknesses and the differences between classes is much less pronounced. To me, it's very boring.
And as you point out, it removed a lot of risk. Part of the fun of high level DnD was knowing that no matter how tough your character was or how good you were, one wrong step against a powerful enemy could mean your end. Not so anymore.
The greatest sin of 4e is trying to copy post wow mmos. Details on spoiler.
One thing amazing about 2e is that they keep the numbers low. For eg, this lv 30 NPC has only 80 hp. And two lv 10 wizards casting fireball can kill her if she fails on both saves. On 5e, a lv 10 player can have more health points than a lv 20 pc on 2e and most things deals far less damage with far less ways to deal CON damage...
https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Zallanora
Relating to magic: I dont like super powerful magic. Call me crazy, but I prefer the idea that magic should be a scalpel and not a nuclear weapon. I want to think of a level 20 wizard and a level 20 fighter being roughly equivalent in power, just going about what they're doing in different ways.
but then - my games tend to be lower to mid fantasy level. I like magic that fits into that realm.
Phantasmal killer/Finger of Death/Wail of the Banshee fells powerful and doesn't throw flashy nuclear explosions.
I've just started binge watching the old BBC Merlin TV series, the campy one that has Merlin and Arthur growing up together from their late teens or early twenties, and the dragon that sounds like Sean Connery.
I think they get the nature of magic really right in that series. Magicians and trained warriors are about equal in power at the same relative levels of mastery, but in different ways. Some problems a sword will solve better, and some problems a spell will solve better. Both swords and spells can be used for either good or evil, depending on the intent of the user.
It adds a very interesting theme to the setting that magic is outlawed, and carries the death penalty for anyone caught using it. I think a setting where magic is heavily regulated or even completely forbidden makes a more interesting setting than a "high magic, everything is magic, and spells are cheap," kind of setting. Dragon Age comes to mind among games, "The Wheel of Time" in books, and "Once Upon a Time" and "Merlin" among TV shows.
I honestly think that depends the setting. And swords IMO are overrated and overrepresented on fantasy or not. IMO polearms needs to be far more common.
But you are seeing it as a modern conception of a central powerful state monopolizing the force in continental areas. That is not how things work on Faerun, nor in medieval life IRL. If magic existed, you can have a heavily regulated magic in big cities like Amn but there are no way to have heavily regulated weapons or magic in a icewind dale setting which a Nordic Barbarian inspired civilizatoin.
On Faerun, you have much more types of government than democracies and absolutist monarchy. Theocracies where divine casters are the rulers and magocracies like Thay are two examples. Even Conan, a low magical setting has Thoth-Amon, a sorcerer as a country ruler king.
But imagine if someone decides to outlaw magic or severely regulate it and a magocracy on other part of the world openly says "we will give citizenship and money to all magicians who come here", magicians will teleport to there and the kingdom that outlawed magic will suffer a huge loss in his power. While the magocracy will gain a lot of power.
Not only that, the world is dying due the usage of arcane magic. Arcanists are hated, even those who are preserver and tries to use magic in a way that won't drain the little lifeforce that the world has. And 2e had different XP tables for different classes. Defiers level up so quickly, fast as thieves whilw preservers in other hands are the slowest to level up.
The final battle on Dark Sun: Shattered Lands CRPG was insanely hard. If wasn't by domination, there are no way to win this battle...
My fear is that a Dark Sun TTRPG on 5e would't be that good because 5e is too rigged towards the party and there are far less lethal things. Not mentioning that having a game where 85%+ of the world population is slaves on 90s is completely different than on 2020s
I remember the original ruleset for Dark Sun was so brutal everyone started at level 3, rolled 4d4+4 for attributes instead of 3d6 and everyone got a free psionic wild talent. Hell, even that spider in your home could have psionic powers. You were still expected to make back up characters in the event your character got offed.
Man, that was such a fun setting.