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SPOILERS: Spoil Away (There Be BG3 Spoilers Here Yarrr)

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  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,651
    kanisatha wrote: »
    kanisatha wrote: »
    That review could very well have been written by me. A very painful read. Without even having played the game, this was exactly how I envisioned the game turning out. And just like the author, I also would find myself constantly save-scumming those endless D20 rolls, and that will get aggravating pretty darn quickly. Tedious combat - no surprise there at all. But most of all, the horribly written companions? I'll take the "empty" companions of BG1 over these oh-so-very-detailed companions any day. Feel very strongly now that my skepticism and pessimism were wholely justified and have been vindicated. Yeah it's EA. Maybe some of this stuff will get "fixed." But how do they fix the fact that this was their (the BG3 devs') first impetus? Their gut feel for how a BG3 game ought to be? Any fix, I fear, will be putting a band-aid on a sucking chest wound.

    In the spoilers regarding the first few encounters of the beginning of the game, the review author showed me that my sense of honor and morality was going to be horrifically offended at least three times. I would have rage quit the moment the game forced me to kill innocent people. I would *not* accept help from anyone who had just tried to kill me. And even the *succeeded* intelligence check leading to a main character death would have been very likely to cause a rage quit from me.

    I wish I could say I was surprised, but I knew this was Larian's writing style. (Very edgy, very biased towards evil characters. Any good characters have to have something seriously wrong with them if they're included in the game.) I was hoping to be proved wrong, but all that hope has been immediately dashed.

    Everything the reviewer points out confirms everything I was afraid this game would be. BG3 will be getting a hard pass from me. I don't want my money to go to support the creation of this kind of a game, even though I'm in a small minority of gamers.

    Luckily I have a treasure trove of older games to keep me entertained.

    To be fair, now that I have played it, that is one of several outcomes. I persuaded the innocents to leave. I didn't engage in a battle of wills with the mind flayer (suicide for a low level character of any type) but still killed it. Astarion never even tried to kill me. I've been playing as a good character and have not been forced into anything evil. Yet.
    But aren't all of these based on D20 checks? And very high checks at that? So at best, to avoid those evil outcomes, one would likely have to save-scum a lot.

    Some based on D20 checks, some based on class that are auto-wins, sometimes it's just about making the right choice.

    But I have no issue with having to roll for skill checks. In fact, I like it a lot. This is classic tabletop DnD in action. Skills matter just as much, if not more, than feats and raw power.
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    kanisatha wrote: »
    That review could very well have been written by me. A very painful read. Without even having played the game, this was exactly how I envisioned the game turning out. And just like the author, I also would find myself constantly save-scumming those endless D20 rolls, and that will get aggravating pretty darn quickly. Tedious combat - no surprise there at all. But most of all, the horribly written companions? I'll take the "empty" companions of BG1 over these oh-so-very-detailed companions any day. Feel very strongly now that my skepticism and pessimism were wholely justified and have been vindicated. Yeah it's EA. Maybe some of this stuff will get "fixed." But how do they fix the fact that this was their (the BG3 devs') first impetus? Their gut feel for how a BG3 game ought to be? Any fix, I fear, will be putting a band-aid on a sucking chest wound.

    In the spoilers regarding the first few encounters of the beginning of the game, the review author showed me that my sense of honor and morality was going to be horrifically offended at least three times. I would have rage quit the moment the game forced me to kill innocent people. I would *not* accept help from anyone who had just tried to kill me. And even the *succeeded* intelligence check leading to a main character death would have been very likely to cause a rage quit from me.

    I wish I could say I was surprised, but I knew this was Larian's writing style. (Very edgy, very biased towards evil characters. Any good characters have to have something seriously wrong with them if they're included in the game.) I was hoping to be proved wrong, but all that hope has been immediately dashed.

    Everything the reviewer points out confirms everything I was afraid this game would be. BG3 will be getting a hard pass from me. I don't want my money to go to support the creation of this kind of a game, even though I'm in a small minority of gamers.

    Luckily I have a treasure trove of older games to keep me entertained.

    it's dishearining seeing the comments for that review. so many " this is how i play dnd so it's fine." or " i'm glad they are catering to the ce crowd".

    so i gusse people like me that tend to play ng and cg are out of luck.
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    Sorry, but I don't see this being the outcome of BG3's success at all. BG3's success may lead to more games, D&D or otherwise, that are just like BG3. But there's no reason why it would lead to more games in general and specifically games that are unlike BG3.

    I don't have any insider knowledge into the buisiness strategy of WoTC, but I do see that this is common for large, successful IPs. They tend to have a main series of games and a variety of spinoffs and lesser known titles. Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, they've all done it. If they feel like more eyes are on DnD because of this, I can see the reasoning for pursuing this path.

    I'm more confident in the fact that if it was a flop, we wouldn't see another DnD game for several more years at least. And the title that did come out would be likely to cater more to casuls and non-DnD players, not less.

    the original baldurs gate and to a lessor extent fallout 1 and 2 set the current standard for crpg after they suffered a dark age in the mid 90's.

    dos did the same for modern crpgs so we are most likely gonna see alot more games in this style if bg 3 does very well.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited October 2020
    There is also kind of a huge jump in terms of the stories tone in the game. Like you go from "lets get off this mindflayer ship that is getting attacked by dragons and devils" to a more traditional game start very quickly.

    By traditional game start I mean a wilderness areas with more traditional low level enemies (bandits, goblins).

    It's a bit deflating. Especially when its not a decision you are making (its not like BG2 where you have more say over what area you will visit next).

    Edit: Also its not really clear to me why my character wouldn't track someone down and ask them where the nearest big city is. Like it feels like going to a big city to look for treatment first should be a diverging option or something.
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    edited October 2020
    that sounds like a pacing issue. it should start normal then get to the over the top style near the end.

    edit: lets use planescape torment as an example. it does not just start with the weird stuff as soon as you start the game. it's alot more down to earth and normal { atlest for sigil} in the hive. then you get to the noble district where it starts doing more weirder quests.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    The Mindflayer ship is an epic SETTING for the beginning of the game. Your encounters are not. You are fighting imps (for the most part). This is highlighted by the last battle before you crash. You are fighting imps, but right in front of you, the Mind Flayer is battling a demon. If you take too long, a couple more demons show up. You have to kill the imps and make your way to the helm of the ship BEFORE allowing those adds to reach you. So it is actually EXACTLY like SWTOR in that regard. It's crystal clear you need to escape, not fight.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,725
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    The Mindflayer ship is an epic SETTING for the beginning of the game. Your encounters are not. You are fighting imps (for the most part). This is highlighted by the last battle before you crash. You are fighting imps, but right in front of you, the Mind Flayer is battling a demon. If you take too long, a couple more demons show up. You have to kill the imps and make your way to the helm of the ship BEFORE allowing those adds to reach you. So it is actually EXACTLY like SWTOR in that regard. It's crystal clear you need to escape, not fight.

    If only I could give all the reactions to this post. @jjstraka34 seems to be playing the same game as I do. Several users in this thread haven't played the game yet but are discussing things that can only be judged from the game. Let's PLEASE leave this thread for reviews/opinions of those who played (eg. our great wizard @elminster who shares good feedback) and don't use it for sharing biased opinions on what you see/read. There are few other threads for that.
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659
    edited October 2020
    deltago wrote: »
    deltago wrote: »
    kanisatha wrote: »
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    So, ship crashes, in usual Larian fashion you are left on a beach. I wander around and accidentally run into combat with three 15 HP Intellect Devourers. I figure I'm screwed, as even my character says one or two hits might be lethal for me. So, what to do?? Well, I am a Rogue, I have a bow. I shoot. I can't let them near me, so I jump away after each shot. They never get in range and all three fall within about 6 or 7 turns. It's this kind of obvious yet still satisfying freedom that Larian does so well at, and it's why their last two games have been so popular. You have so many options at your disposal when it comes to combat.
    Taking 6-7 turns to accomplish this would be too tedious and frustrating and aggravating for me.

    That combat takes about 10 mins to finish. Are 10 mins tedious and frustrating and aggravating? Not for me.

    God yes. 10 minutes for what should be a trash mob fight?

    The first time I fought the brood mother in Dragon Age: Origins, it took me close to 10 minutes to defeat her and that was an epic battle.

    Even if you don’t use cheese tactics, you can drop any of the dragons in Baldur’s Gate in less than 10 minutes.

    It's worth considering the sum of total combat encounters by time. A 10 minute trash fight in BG3 might replace 5 trash mob encounters in BG2. If that's the case, then the combats might be more reasonable in nature.

    It reminds me of actual tabletop D&D. You only have a few encounters per session. BG1/2/NWN/PFKM/etc all throw a lot more at you because their fights are so fast, relative to tabletop.

    And I keep saying, this isn’t a tabletop session. I am not goofing around with friends. I am being immersed in a story and a journey and if that pace of story is interrupted by meaningless battles that take 10 minutes to complete then it becomes jarring.

    Perhaps that's what *you* want, but not everyone. I want it to feel more like a table top session than a visual novel.
    scriver wrote: »
    I certainly haven't encountered any 10 minute long fight yet.

    If that was about the brain monsters, that fight certainly wasn't 10 minutes for me. 2-3 turns at most.

    Guess not all the fights are 10 minutes long then.

    kanisatha wrote: »
    [
    But there's no evidence of this. From all the reviews, both from players and reviewers, it certainly looks like there's just as much combat in this game as in any other comparable game. That certainly was true of the D:OS games.

    This is certainly *not* true, by the way. The number of fights in DOS:2 is MUCH smaller than the number of fights in BG2 - whether you define that by area, time, dungeon or anything. I've played both extensively, and they're not comparable.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    deltago wrote: »
    deltago wrote: »
    kanisatha wrote: »
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    So, ship crashes, in usual Larian fashion you are left on a beach. I wander around and accidentally run into combat with three 15 HP Intellect Devourers. I figure I'm screwed, as even my character says one or two hits might be lethal for me. So, what to do?? Well, I am a Rogue, I have a bow. I shoot. I can't let them near me, so I jump away after each shot. They never get in range and all three fall within about 6 or 7 turns. It's this kind of obvious yet still satisfying freedom that Larian does so well at, and it's why their last two games have been so popular. You have so many options at your disposal when it comes to combat.
    Taking 6-7 turns to accomplish this would be too tedious and frustrating and aggravating for me.

    That combat takes about 10 mins to finish. Are 10 mins tedious and frustrating and aggravating? Not for me.

    God yes. 10 minutes for what should be a trash mob fight?

    The first time I fought the brood mother in Dragon Age: Origins, it took me close to 10 minutes to defeat her and that was an epic battle.

    Even if you don’t use cheese tactics, you can drop any of the dragons in Baldur’s Gate in less than 10 minutes.

    It's worth considering the sum of total combat encounters by time. A 10 minute trash fight in BG3 might replace 5 trash mob encounters in BG2. If that's the case, then the combats might be more reasonable in nature.

    It reminds me of actual tabletop D&D. You only have a few encounters per session. BG1/2/NWN/PFKM/etc all throw a lot more at you because their fights are so fast, relative to tabletop.

    And I keep saying, this isn’t a tabletop session. I am not goofing around with friends. I am being immersed in a story and a journey and if that pace of story is interrupted by meaningless battles that take 10 minutes to complete then it becomes jarring.

    Perhaps that's what *you* want, but not everyone. I want it to feel more like a table top session than a visual novel.
    scriver wrote: »
    I certainly haven't encountered any 10 minute long fight yet.

    If that was about the brain monsters, that fight certainly wasn't 10 minutes for me. 2-3 turns at most.

    Guess not all the fights are 10 minutes long then.

    I did say me.

    But I am not allowed to have an opinion in this thread anymore so it’s not like it matters.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited October 2020
    Are there any time limits to the quests? I've been thinking about taking a long rest but the druid leader seemed like she wanted things sorted out soon. I don't want to push things heh.
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 2,101
    Apparently my natural curiosity is stronger than my fear of spoilers... besides, I don't think anyone will reveal major plot spoilers even in this thread without tags.

    So, a question for those who have actually started playing: Is it true what some people said, that you are literally forced to kill innocents? Or are there other choices, or is it something that happens because of the mind control thing?

    I try to be good in life and games alike and wouldn't choose to be a coldblooded murderer, but I could imagine making choices in grey areas when lives depended on it, like traveling with someone who tried to kill me before.

    So, are there difficult choices with difficult solutions, or frequent situations where clear evil is the only option?

    And I'd like to hear from people who have actually been playing, not just reading about it.
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,651
    edited October 2020
    Arvia wrote: »
    Is it true what some people said, that you are literally forced to kill innocents?

    They are mind controlled, but you aren't forced to kill them. You can talk them down, and judging by the sheer number of unique class interactions, some classes may have another way through.
    So, are there difficult choices with difficult solutions, or frequent situations where clear evil is the only option?

    There are plenty of opportunities to do good, and I found at least one encounter that I felt was a grey area and was indecisive about the correct choice.

    If you want to hear the story.
    There are these baby-faced goblin kids, really cute little guys, picking on a Druid captured by the others. This druid is the head of the grove and is needed to defend it from the incoming goblin attack. If I try to free him, I have to enter combat with the kids. I really, REALLY don't want to do that. So I decided I couldn't do anything for the time being, and I would come back later and hopefully they would be gone. Which may be the case since the main force already left for the grove and I could intercept them right now.
  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,819
    edited October 2020
    Ok, I left the ship and.. there is no Shadowheart at her usual spot, there are no enemies nearby, there is a dying mind flayer inside the crash site, but I cannot talk to him. Something bugged, or I miss something?
    Post edited by Cahir on
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited October 2020
    Cahir wrote: »
    Ok, I left the shop and.. there is no Shadowheart at her usual spot, there are no enemies nearby, there is a dying mind flayer inside the crash site, but I cannot talk to him. Something bugged, or I miss something?

    If I'm understanding this correctly then it sounds bugged.
    Post edited by Cahir on
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,651
    edited October 2020
    elminster wrote: »
    Are there any time limits to the quests? I've been thinking about taking a long rest but the druid leader seemed like she wanted things sorted out soon. I don't want to push things heh.

    I have been meaning to talk about resting. There seems to be a bit of tension here, with the main plot making you feel like resting is a really bad idea, and storyline events only happening on rests.

    I don't know about you, but if I had a mind flayer parasite in my head and I thought I only had a few days to live I would try to rest as little as possible until I found a cure.

    I know they tell you it has been altered to some degree, but iirc nothing tells you that you won't die in a matter of days.

    I don't think there are any time limits though. Its been days and the druid leader hasn't done the thing.
  • kanisathakanisatha Member Posts: 1,308
    Sorry, but I don't see this being the outcome of BG3's success at all. BG3's success may lead to more games, D&D or otherwise, that are just like BG3. But there's no reason why it would lead to more games in general and specifically games that are unlike BG3.

    I don't have any insider knowledge into the buisiness strategy of WoTC, but I do see that this is common for large, successful IPs. They tend to have a main series of games and a variety of spinoffs and lesser known titles. Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, they've all done it. If they feel like more eyes are on DnD because of this, I can see the reasoning for pursuing this path.

    I'm more confident in the fact that if it was a flop, we wouldn't see another DnD game for several more years at least. And the title that did come out would be likely to cater more to casuls and non-DnD players, not less.
    Fair enough. But for me, 'no more D&D games' and 'games like BG3' are both exactly the same thing. Either way, I am denied the ability to enjoy playing a D&D game.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,725
    Yeah, just like SoD could be judged without playing it, solely based on reviews and YouTube videos. I don't say you can't have an opinion based on that, just please - don't share it in the thread called "spoilers spoil away".
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,651
    edited October 2020
    kanisatha wrote: »
    Sorry, but I don't see this being the outcome of BG3's success at all. BG3's success may lead to more games, D&D or otherwise, that are just like BG3. But there's no reason why it would lead to more games in general and specifically games that are unlike BG3.

    I don't have any insider knowledge into the buisiness strategy of WoTC, but I do see that this is common for large, successful IPs. They tend to have a main series of games and a variety of spinoffs and lesser known titles. Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, they've all done it. If they feel like more eyes are on DnD because of this, I can see the reasoning for pursuing this path.

    I'm more confident in the fact that if it was a flop, we wouldn't see another DnD game for several more years at least. And the title that did come out would be likely to cater more to casuls and non-DnD players, not less.
    Fair enough. But for me, 'no more D&D games' and 'games like BG3' are both exactly the same thing. Either way, I am denied the ability to enjoy playing a D&D game.

    Honestly, I'm sorry to hear that. That's how I was worried BG3 would make me feel.

    I don't think rtwp DnD games are off the table, so tbh I'm still holding out hope, plus there are a few big projects being worked on that excited me just as much as BG3 did anyways.

    Maybe I'm just optimistic. But we got SOD, the EE's, and BG3 in the past several years. DnD games are nearly as common now as they were in the Gold Box days.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited October 2020
    Anyone find a reason for the existence of the scrawny bugbear? (its a hostile bugbear in the blighted village). Besides being just something to kill with a rock?
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,651
    I totally forgot! There is a "knock unconscious" option in combat, to defeat a creature without killing them (exists in PnP as well).

    If you get a bad dice roll and get into combat with someone you don't want to hurt, you can end it without killing them.
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    5e already has the slowest combat among D&D editions(i don't consider 4e a D&D game). And what larian does? Reduces the damage even more of firebolt and other weapons/spells...
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,651
    edited October 2020
    5e already has the slowest combat among D&D editions(i don't consider 4e a D&D game). And what larian does? Reduces the damage even more of firebolt and other weapons/spells...

    I also dislike when game devs think they know better about how to do DnD than DnD players.

    But it doesn't even register when I'm playing honestly. It's an issue that will last for the first couple levels basically.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Yeah, just like SoD could be judged without playing it, solely based on reviews and YouTube videos. I don't say you can't have an opinion based on that, just please - don't share it in the thread called "spoilers spoil away".

    I seriously doubt the majority of people who review bombed SoD even looked at it beyond, "this character exists". I don't think its fair to stonewall criticism of things that doesn't require someone to play it to be able to understand or enjoy it. Remember the great fun we had with Shadowheart jokes? No one had to play the game to know the name is silly.
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,651
    edited October 2020
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Yeah, just like SoD could be judged without playing it, solely based on reviews and YouTube videos. I don't say you can't have an opinion based on that, just please - don't share it in the thread called "spoilers spoil away".

    I seriously doubt the majority of people who review bombed SoD even looked at it beyond, "this character exists". I don't think its fair to stonewall criticism of things that doesn't require someone to play it to be able to understand or enjoy it. Remember the great fun we had with Shadowheart jokes? No one had to play the game to know the name is silly.

    Funny story, I learned about SOD because of the controversy. I heard about a new Baldurs Gate interquel in the form of some complainy political b.s and practically had a heart attack. I was so out of the loop after such a long stretch of no interesting DnD news.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited October 2020
    Btw it turns out thieves tools are destroyed on a failed use. So that was probably why I saw lockpicking grey out. This is not how things are handled in PnP. But it is what it is.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Yeah, just like SoD could be judged without playing it, solely based on reviews and YouTube videos. I don't say you can't have an opinion based on that, just please - don't share it in the thread called "spoilers spoil away".

    I seriously doubt the majority of people who review bombed SoD even looked at it beyond, "this character exists". I don't think its fair to stonewall criticism of things that doesn't require someone to play it to be able to understand or enjoy it. Remember the great fun we had with Shadowheart jokes? No one had to play the game to know the name is silly.

    Funny story, I learned about SOD because of the controversy. I heard about a new Baldurs Gate interquel in the form of some complainy political b.s and practically had a heart attack. I was so out of the loop after such a long stretch of no interesting DnD news.

    Like as much as I hate the direction BG3 has gone, I still wouldn't condone review bombing it. When people want a game review, they want to know what the person experienced while playing it. But a bunch of nerds discussing what they see as either strengths or weaknesses is not a review. Its people sharing their opinions. And its healthy.
  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,819
    elminster wrote: »
    Cahir wrote: »
    Ok, I left the shop and.. there is no Shadowheart at her usual spot, there are no enemies nearby, there is a dying mind flayer inside the crash site, but I cannot talk to him. Something bugged, or I miss something?

    If I'm understanding this correctly then it sounds bugged.

    It must be, I remember Swen was fighting intelect devourers around the crash site (he even killed one, throwing a boot). And Shadowheart should wait in front of that gate. Unless the fact that I failed Arcana check when I tried to help her on the ship resulted her not showing up... which would be extremely odd.
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    No, she's still supposed to show up there. It's definitely a bug. Try reloading an earlier save? There will be at least two autosaves from the intro section.

    I also suggest having a gander at whatever forum or site they want you to report bugs in and report your happenings there.
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