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Fantasy tropes that don't make a lot of sense

m7600m7600 Member Posts: 318
edited December 2020 in Off-Topic
I love the fantasy genre and all its sub-genres (sword & sorcery, high fantasy, sword & planet, etc.). There are some tropes though that don't seem to make a lot of sense when you think about them. This thread is for documenting and discussing them. I'll start with two.

First trope. Elves are generally depicted as protectors of nature, especially forests. Yet their most iconic weapons are bows and arrows. Do they chop down trees in order to make them? But that would presumably go against their beliefs, since they should refrain from destroying trees. Maybe they just cut off some branches, without chopping down trees? But technically, that would be mutilation. So how can they even have bows and arrows?

Second trope. The archetypal weapon that dwarfs use is the axe. If this weapon was adapted from a common tool that dwarves used in the past, what was that tool used for? Axes are generally used for chopping wood, but since dwarves live underground and the interior of mountains, there aren't any trees or wood there to chop. Why do they use axes, then? Maybe, instead of wood, they chop down giant mushrooms? But if that's the case, why is it that the handles of their axes are made of wood instead of fungal material?
Grond0Arvia
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  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,305
    m7600 wrote: »
    I love the fantasy genre and all its sub-genres (sword & sorcery, high fantasy, sword & planet, etc.). There are some tropes though that don't seem to make a lot of sense when you think about them. This thread is for documenting and discussing them. I'll start with two.

    First trope. Elves are generally depicted as protectors of nature, especially forests. Yet their most iconic weapons are bows and arrows. Do they chop down trees in order to make them? But that would presumably go against their beliefs, since they should refrain from destroying trees. Maybe they just cut off some branches, without chopping down trees? But technically, that would be mutilation. So how can they even have bows and arrows?

    Second trope. The archetypal weapon that dwarfs use is the axe. If this weapon was adapted from a common tool that dwarves used in the past, what was that tool used for? Axes are generally used for chopping wood, but since dwarves live underground and the interior of mountains, there aren't any trees or wood there to chop. Why do they use axes, then? Maybe, instead of wood, they chop down giant mushrooms? But if that's the case, why is it that the handles of their axes are made of wood instead of fungal material?

    For the elves, wood from deadfalls would be available even if there were a prohibition against cutting it. I don't really see why there should be though - elves are normally presented as heavily managing their woods, rather than letting them grow entirely naturally. Some elves would also be able to use magic to 'convince' a tree to give up a particularly suitable section ...

    For the dwarves, this makes reasonable sense to me. Dwarves are presented as being extremely strong for their size, but not particularly dexterous. Their strength also meant they traditionally wear armor (as do their traditional foes, orcs) and heavy axes are a far better weapon to use against armor than swords - unless you are able to fight with extreme precision.
    semiticgoddessThacoBellm7600Arvia
  • m7600m7600 Member Posts: 318
    edited December 2020
    For the elves, one possible solution would be that they collect dry leaves from the ground during the autumn, and then they crush the leaves and mix them with some sort of oil or glue, forming a wooden paste that hardens after aging it. Sort of like the fantasy version of plywood or fibreboard.

    For the dwarves, they can get away with using coal instead of wood for the forges. But if they really need to use wood for other things like support beams, then it would make sense for them to use axes, and this would also give us a chance to explain why they don't get along with elves. Dwarves would routinely venture into elven forests in order to chop down trees and obtain wood. Elves would be against this, of course. I think that this struggle over a key resource would be a more compelling explanation for their mutual hatred, as opposed to the shallow "I don't like your face / attitude" explanation.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Some amount of trade should always be expected. IRL civilizations across all time periods have gotten a ton of their resources through trade.
    m7600ThacoBell
  • m7600m7600 Member Posts: 318
    Some amount of trade should always be expected. IRL civilizations across all time periods have gotten a ton of their resources through trade.

    Maybe elves trade wood in exchange for other commodities. The way they protect their forests could be seen as a monopoly of the wood supply by others peoples. The same could be said about dwarves, who would monopolize metal and other underground resources.
  • m7600m7600 Member Posts: 318
    Nobody with any power actually does anything. Armies and Kings aren't effective. Anytime a Big Bad needs to be defeated it's always some no-name villager who rose to power out of nowhere.

    Yeah, that one is ubiquitous. Even Lord of the Rings is guilty of this one. When they were in Rivendel, Elrond might as well have said "Hey, I have a lot of soldiers, but they won't accompany you, don't worry about it though, I'm sure that this ragtag fellowship of yours, half of which are untrained no-names, will succeed in what is essentially a suicide mission."
    semiticgoddess
  • m7600m7600 Member Posts: 318
    Balrog99 wrote: »
    In LOTR's defense, they went with a small group for a legitimate reason. It was pretty much known that an elven army wouldn't have made it into Mordor...

    True, but it's a long way from Rivendel to Mordor, they could have used a few elven soldiers in Moria. Galadriel had the same attitude as Elrond: "Yep, got a lot of awesome sharpshooters here, but not one of them can join you. We cool though, right?"
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,651
    LOTR is the most forgivable of the lot because they had a good explanation for why a certain hobbit might be the best pick. Many other fantasy series seemingly copied this trope but forgot to add any reason for it being the case, making every authority figure and standing army look foolish and incompetent.
    Grond0ThacoBellm7600Isewein
  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 773
    edited December 2020
    Fighting in your underwear or with clothing gaps is a viable option. But if you want to wear heavy plate then feel free to do so all day in stealth mode without getting tired
    m7600
  • m7600m7600 Member Posts: 318
    Here's another one. Dragons like to sleep in piles of gold coins. This is always presented as something natural. But those coins had to be manufactured by someone: humans, elves, dwarves, etc. So there's nothing "natural" about this behavior that dragons have. It's kind of similar to how rodents like cheese. There's nothing "natural" about it, cheese doesn't grow on trees, it has to be made. Rodents in the wild eat fruits, worms, etc.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Coins may just be the "modern" equivalent for dragons. A lot of the older stories about dragons indicate that they have soft undersides, and laying in the hoard all the time embeds the coins and whatever else in them and acts as a sort of armor. Before coins, dragons would probably have used rocks, probably favoring for decorative variations, or even digging up uncut gems for use.
    m7600semiticgoddess
  • m7600m7600 Member Posts: 318
    Merfolk typically use tridents as their weapon of choice. Generally these are depicted as being made of metal. Sometimes they also wear metal armor. How do they make these things, if blacksmithing is impossible underwater?
    semiticgoddessThacoBell
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,366
    m7600 wrote: »
    Merfolk typically use tridents as their weapon of choice. Generally these are depicted as being made of metal. Sometimes they also wear metal armor. How do they make these things, if blacksmithing is impossible underwater?

    They loot sunken galleys? Just a thought...
    m7600semiticgoddess
  • m7600m7600 Member Posts: 318
    This one is more about RPGs than fantasy as a genre: when you kill a monster like a skeleton, it usually drops gold. But if the skeleton didn't have any bags or pouches, where did it stash the gold?
    semiticgoddessThacoBell
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Skeletons should either be super fast or super weak.

    A human skeleton is about 20 pounds wet and 10 pounds dry. If an undead critter is reduced to a skeleton, it should be able to run at inhuman speeds and jump like a cricket, because it's so lightweight. If skeletons only have the strength to move their 10-20 pound frame just as fast as a 150-200 pound living human, then they should be pathetically weak and unable to carry weapons that are so heavy.

    A skeleton would also need footwraps or shoes to have any real traction on the ground. A realistic skeletal undead would be a springy, skittery spider monkey of a monster that could only comfortably wield small weapons.
    m7600Grond0ThacoBell
  • m7600m7600 Member Posts: 318
    Not to mention the fact that they don't have muscles or ligaments, but they still move like a human being would. I supposed this could be explained by a "necromantic energy" that animates the skeleton.
    semiticgoddessThacoBell
  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 957
    m7600 wrote: »
    Not to mention the fact that they don't have muscles or ligaments, but they still move like a human being would. I supposed this could be explained by a "necromantic energy" that animates the skeleton.

    tendons join muscle to bone (and thus essential to articulation). Ligaments join bone to bone.
    m7600
  • m7600m7600 Member Posts: 318
    Another one about RPGs: shopkeepers have an infinite supply of gold for buying the extremely expensive magical items that you sell them. This never upsets the general economy in any way. There is never an inflation, nor does currency ever loose its value.

    Though I do have to mention that in Baldur's Gate 1 there's a character in Beregost that complains that adventurers always disrupt the economy by selling the stuff that they find in dungeons.
    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @m7600 While you're 100% right, it is kind of stupid. I HATE it when merchants in games have limited money. "I just carried 400lbs of armor and weapons here, and you only 200 gold!?"
    energisedcamelm7600Zaxares
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    @m7600 While you're 100% right, it is kind of stupid. I HATE it when merchants in games have limited money. "I just carried 400lbs of armor and weapons here, and you only 200 gold!?"

    Can I just ask what a merchant is going to do with 400 lbs of armour and weapons and why should he purchase them off of you or any other dungeon delving do-gooder?

    There obviously isn’t a market for them anymore as you massacred the alleged threats in the areas to obtain them.
    m7600
  • m7600m7600 Member Posts: 318
    deltago wrote: »
    Can I just ask what a merchant is going to do with 400 lbs of armour and weapons and why should he purchase them off of you or any other dungeon delving do-gooder?

    There obviously isn’t a market for them anymore as you massacred the alleged threats in the areas to obtain them.

    I like that you used the term "alleged" there. Imagine being a simple Ochre Jelly, happily crawling around the cave that you feel is your home, blissfully unaware that sentient beings think that you're a monster. Then some jack-ape adventurers invade your cave, you try to defend yourself as best as you can, but it's not enough. On top of that, they loot all of the cool shiny stuff that you had.
    Balrog99WarChiefZeke
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,325
    m7600 wrote: »
    Imagine being a simple Ochre Jelly, happily crawling around the cave that you feel is your home, blissfully unaware that sentient beings think that you're a monster. Then some jack-ape adventurers invade your cave, you try to defend yourself as best as you can, but it's not enough. On top of that, they loot all of the cool shiny stuff that you had.

    In fairness though, Ochre Jellies have 0 Intelligence. They can't even conceive of the concept of "treasure". ;) To an ooze, their Life Flowchart kinda goes like this: "You find something! > Eat/envelop it! > Look for something else!"
    m7600 wrote: »
    Another one about RPGs: shopkeepers have an infinite supply of gold for buying the extremely expensive magical items that you sell them. This never upsets the general economy in any way. There is never an inflation, nor does currency ever loose its value.

    As ThacoBell mentioned above, some RPGs do have a gold limit. I remember constantly running into the gold limit in NWN1/2, and boy is it irritating! XD Fair point on how all the humongous amounts of wealth adventurers bring back into town not massively devaluing the local currency though.

    On dragons and gold coins, I actually watched this really fun animated fantasy movie as a kid called "The Flight of Dragons". In it, it explains that dragons sleep on piles of gold coins because gold is actually a very soft metal, and because dragons tend to ignite conventional bedding due to small flame bursts, they instead opt to sleep on soft metals, with gold being preferred. It doesn't say what the dragons used to use before humans came along to start minting coins; maybe the dragons just got by sleeping on the ground or on mud and river pebbles. (Hey, who says humanoids have to be the only race who went through a primitive phase? ;) )
    Balrog99ThacoBellm7600DrHappyAngry
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    I'm so glad that I'm not the only person who remembers Flight of Dragons.
    m7600Zaxares
  • UlshUlsh Member Posts: 17
    To add to the unlimited gold discussion: I always thought it weird how a merchant in some backwater village in the middle of nowhere would gladly accept shelling out gold enough to buy a small kingdom for magical artifacts that he most likely would never be able to "move".

    "Fiery Axe of Godslaying +6 you say, adventurer? Why, I'll give you 40000 shiny gold pieces for it!"
    *Thinking to self* "Sucker! I can sell this to Noober the Farmhand for thrice that!"
    m7600semiticgoddess
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 3,822
    Although some aspects of the system make more sense ...

    "More gnoll halberds? Look, I've already got more halberds in stock than I'll probably ever sell. Still, the metal's decent. I'll give you their scrap value. 2 gold each. Deal?"
    m7600semiticgoddess
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