This isn't about Covid-19 per se but I want to post a question here about a personal dilemma I'm facing. This forum has a lot of knowledgeable folks so I thought I'd ask for your opinions.
I just had oral surgery today (surgical implant posts installed) and I was prescribed a post-surgery antibiotic. There is some conjecture that antibiotics can leave you more susceptible to the flu and was wondering if the risks of taking it in this Covid-19 environment might be greater than the potential benefit. Any thoughts?
@Balrog99: Definitely take your antibiotics. You are far more likely to get sick from a recent surgery because you didn't take your antibiotics than you to get sick from the flu because you took the antibiotics and they might impact your resistance. The flu is a longer-term but lower-level risk; the risk of infection from the surgery is near-term but very high.
Right now, the exposed and damaged tissues in your mouth are the bigger danger.
@Balrog99: Definitely take your antibiotics. You are far more likely to get sick from a recent surgery because you didn't take your antibiotics than you to get sick from the flu because you took the antibiotics and they might impact your resistance. The flu is a longer-term but lower-level risk; the risk of infection from the surgery is near-term but very high.
Right now, the exposed and damaged tissues in your mouth are the bigger danger.
That was my thought too, but then I substituted 'Covid-19' for 'flu' and seeing as that virus is going, well for want of a better word, viral, it made me think about probabilities. My mind goes into full-on spreadsheet mode when probabilities and statistics are involved! Antibiotics do suppress your immune system, especially the benefits your gut bacteria provide.
@Balrog99 To add onto what @semiticgod already advised. Both COVID and infection will land you in a hospital. Which is the worst place to be to avoid COVID at this point. Infection is a big deal, and the only reason its less dangerous than COVID, is that you aren't really gonna catch it from someone else or pass it on yourself (barring bizarre circumstances). Untreated infections (especially the kind that can arise from surgery) WILL kill eventually.
@Balrog99 To add onto what @semiticgod already advised. Both COVID and infection will land you in a hospital. Which is the worst place to be to avoid COVID at this point. Infection is a big deal, and the only reason its less dangerous than COVID, is that you aren't really gonna catch it from someone else or pass it on yourself (barring bizarre circumstances). Untreated infections (especially the kind that can arise from surgery) WILL kill eventually.
@Arvia already set me straight (privately). I'll take my meds like a good boy now... ?
What puzzles me is the rumour that taking antibiotic medicine makes you more susceptible to catching a disease as this is the first time I've heard such a thing. Now as far as I've heard that makes no sense. The only possible impact (other than possible allergic reaction), that I know of, is it should kill bacteria in your body. This may well impact the "friendly" bacteria in your gut. But that's about all.
What puzzles me is the rumour that taking antibiotic medicine makes you more susceptible to catching a disease as this is the first time I've heard such a thing. Now as far as I've heard that makes no sense. The only possible impact (other than possible allergic reaction), that I know of, is it should kill bacteria in your body. This may well impact the "friendly" bacteria in your gut. But that's about all.
TR
There are findings that the friendly bacteria in your gut are part of the early-warning system your body uses to fight disease. I've read a little about it so was just wondering if other people knew more about it than me and could apprise me of the relative risk of taking indiscriminate antibiotics during a pandemic.
Well the only other negative thing about taking antibiotics is building disease resistant bacteria. From what little I know, not finishing a prescribed course of antibiotics also helps bacteria to become resistant.
Well the only other negative thing about taking antibiotics is building disease resistant bacteria. From what little I know, not finishing a prescribed course of antibiotics also helps bacteria to become resistant.
TR
Which is why I asked the question before I started the course!
Well the only other negative thing about taking antibiotics is building disease resistant bacteria. From what little I know, not finishing a prescribed course of antibiotics also helps bacteria to become resistant.
TR
Other than the potential effect on gut bacteria, NHS advice includes the following:
"Very rarely, antibiotic treatment will cause a drop in the blood count, including the numbers of white cells that fight infection. This corrects itself when the treatment is stopped."
I think the relevant phrase there is "Very rarely". So unless you've had problems with antibiotics before @Balrog99, it is probably wise to take the medicine.
(Here's some good info from a UC Berkeley professor to his students)
Nick's Covid Advice for CS161: Prepare to go to ground now
As you know, I've been following COVID very closely and trying to keep students informed of the situation. And although I'm not an epidemiologist, my research includes the computer equivalents. We are about to enter a very, very dark December and you should all prepare now.
As a reminder, COVID is an airborne pathogen but requires a significant challenge dose to be infected. Airborne/aerosol means it is carried around in particles with roughly the size and behavior of smoke. Worse, asymptomatic but infected individuals spread the virus very effectively. Talking and singing spread more particles than just breathing. This is why mask wearing is so critical: even the most basic cloth mask acts as a fairly effective filter for these particles when you breath out.
So imagine an infected person is smoking a joint. For a pathogen like measles, if you smell the joint and were unvaccinated you'd be infected. With COVID, you need a contact high. This is why outdoors is so much safer than indoors, fleeting contact is far less significant than sustained contact, and why restaurants, bars, and family gatherings are such effective spreaders. A bar, especially in winter, is a literal COVID hot-box.
It is also important to understand the risk. For most University students the risk you face if you are infected with COVID is in roughly the same ballpark as joining a fraternity. But it is a very different story for your parents: Even in the 40-50 year old range a COVID infection has a roughly 0.5% fatality rate when the hospital systems are well functioning, and this can drastically increase with both age and if the hospital system is overloaded. Unless you are a sociopath, you would probably feel badly if, say, your wedding lead directly to 7 deaths.
At the same time, we are all suffering from COVID fatigue and claustrophobia. We want this to end. The good news is it will, soonish. The timeline for widespread vaccinations in the spring is looking good, not just the Pfizer vaccine but others in the pipeline, and one of the few things the Administration has gotten right is building the distribution infrastructure now and agreeing to buy now large amounts of vaccine when it becomes available.
But with that background, the US is about to enter a crisis even worse than the first wave.
Cases have doubled in a little more than 10 days, the hospitals are already as full as they were in the first wave, and the US is proceeding like nothing is wrong. United just added over 1400 flights for Thanksgiving. At the same time the healthcare system is already breaking down: El Paso now has 10 refrigerated trucks serving as a temporary morgue while the state of Texas is suing to overturn local restrictions designed to reduce the spread! Worse, hospitalizations lag cases by about a week and deaths by two weeks. And yet a good 30% of the country thinks that masks are some plot to corrupt our precious bodily fluids.
This third wave is twice as many cases as the second (the first wave doesn't count for this comparison because the testing regime was too weak then). That second wave had an average daily death toll of over 1000/day. So as a nation we will be lucky if there is only one more doubling of the rate of new infections and a month of 2000-3000 dead each day: substantially more than the first wave. But with the Thanksgiving holiday coming up, we are looking at a very dark December as so many are actively ignoring the pandemic.
So what to do?
It is time to effectively "go to ground", prepare to shelter in place for the next couple of months like the initial lockdown. If you are with your parents, stay there. But if you aren't, do not return home unless they get sick: this includes both Thanksgiving and the Christmas holiday. Don't dine indoors, don't work out indoors, don't meet anyone outside your household indoors. And spread the word to your family and those you love.
Thanksgiving-time shopping is going to be particularly perilous. Grocery shop for the next two weeks now to avoid the pre-Thanksgiving mobs at the stores. When you do go out, try to wear one of the disposable blue procedure masks rather than just a cloth mask: procedure masks do offer some level of incoming protection. The N95s you got for the fires are not appropriate as they have breather valves, if you wear one of those, wear a cloth or blue-disposable over it.
If your parents or relatives want you home for the holidays, reply that you love them too much to risk it. If they press further, say something like "I give you a bowl of 200 M&Ms. One will kill you. One will cripple you. Everyone over 40 gets to eat one if we have a family gathering. Grandma needs to eat 5. That is what happens if someone brings Covid to the family gathering."
It is going to be a dark end to a dark year. But there is light ahead. The multiple vaccine candidates are looking very very good, the distribution system is in place, and Pfizer alone is gearing up for a billion+ doses in the next several months and Pfizer is not the only one. So to end on a happy note, with high confidence my office hours in Fall 2021 will allow me to wait for people to show up in person rather than over zoom.
I just read an article from the AP about people in the rural midwest not being concerned even though they are aware the surge is happening there. It was striking just how much "I" and "me" was referred to in the article. These people have absolutely no concept or care for others whatsoever, or they are completely ignorant as to how this thing works. Either way, I don't particularly give a shit. I don't care what happens to them anymore. But it's, in most cases, someone else who is going to die for their selfishness. And there is a complete moral or mental block about it.
I just read an article from the AP about people in the rural midwest not being concerned even though they are aware the surge is happening there. It was striking just how much "I" and "me" was referred to in the article. These people have absolutely no concept or care for others whatsoever, or they are completely ignorant as to how this thing works. Either way, I don't particularly give a shit. I don't care what happens to them anymore. But it's, in most cases, someone else who is going to die for their selfishness. And there is a complete moral or mental block about it.
I know the way these people think because I grew up with them and in many ways I am one. Personally I wear my mask because I'd hate to infect somebody else, but I'm not afraid of the virus.
I just read an article from the AP about people in the rural midwest not being concerned even though they are aware the surge is happening there. It was striking just how much "I" and "me" was referred to in the article. These people have absolutely no concept or care for others whatsoever, or they are completely ignorant as to how this thing works. Either way, I don't particularly give a shit. I don't care what happens to them anymore. But it's, in most cases, someone else who is going to die for their selfishness. And there is a complete moral or mental block about it.
I know the way these people think because I grew up with them and in many ways I am one. Personally I wear my mask because I'd hate to infect somebody else, but I'm not afraid of the virus.
Yes, and that's great and all, but the ND health care system is about to crash, and it doesn't care if people are afraid or not:
I just read an article from the AP about people in the rural midwest not being concerned even though they are aware the surge is happening there. It was striking just how much "I" and "me" was referred to in the article. These people have absolutely no concept or care for others whatsoever, or they are completely ignorant as to how this thing works. Either way, I don't particularly give a shit. I don't care what happens to them anymore. But it's, in most cases, someone else who is going to die for their selfishness. And there is a complete moral or mental block about it.
I know the way these people think because I grew up with them and in many ways I am one. Personally I wear my mask because I'd hate to infect somebody else, but I'm not afraid of the virus.
I just read an article from the AP about people in the rural midwest not being concerned even though they are aware the surge is happening there. It was striking just how much "I" and "me" was referred to in the article. These people have absolutely no concept or care for others whatsoever, or they are completely ignorant as to how this thing works. Either way, I don't particularly give a shit. I don't care what happens to them anymore. But it's, in most cases, someone else who is going to die for their selfishness. And there is a complete moral or mental block about it.
I know the way these people think because I grew up with them and in many ways I am one. Personally I wear my mask because I'd hate to infect somebody else, but I'm not afraid of the virus.
Man. That's nuts some of those quotes.
It's utterly amazing how people treat this like it's akin to overcoming a fear of heights by riding a roller coaster. This has nothing to do with bravery or personal growth. "If I just go out to restaurants more without a mask, that'll show the virus who the boss is". We're fundamentally too stupid as a country to face this.
Made as quick a trip as possible to the local Dollar Store on my lunch break. 4 employees, NONE wearing masks despite a sign outside requiring customers to. The other two customers wearing ones with it not covering their nose. That settles it for me. I'm having everything mailed or delivered until this subsides.
I just read an article from the AP about people in the rural midwest not being concerned even though they are aware the surge is happening there. It was striking just how much "I" and "me" was referred to in the article. These people have absolutely no concept or care for others whatsoever, or they are completely ignorant as to how this thing works. Either way, I don't particularly give a shit. I don't care what happens to them anymore. But it's, in most cases, someone else who is going to die for their selfishness. And there is a complete moral or mental block about it.
I know the way these people think because I grew up with them and in many ways I am one. Personally I wear my mask because I'd hate to infect somebody else, but I'm not afraid of the virus.
Man. That's nuts some of those quotes.
It's utterly amazing how people treat this like it's akin to overcoming a fear of heights by riding a roller coaster. This has nothing to do with bravery or personal growth. "If I just go out to restaurants more without a mask, that'll show the virus who the boss is". We're fundamentally too stupid as a country to face this.
Made as quick a trip as possible to the local Dollar Store on my lunch break. 4 employees, NONE wearing masks despite a sign outside requiring customers to. The other two customers wearing ones with it not covering their nose. That settles it for me. I'm having everything mailed or delivered until this subsides.
Just stopped by a party store to pick up some beer for ? Sunday. Everybody, customer and employee alike, wore masks. It's really weird hearing about how other states are reacting. Maybe I'm just too close to a major city (Detroit) to see the rural effects...
Wearing a mask while staffers are forced to be there less than 6 feet away from you is too much to ask for the GOP. There are masked staffers below the GOP senator. He should wear a mask for their protection. He refuses.
Yikes. One day after Whitmer announced her shutdown orders things here in my Michigan neighborhood have changed dramatically. Granted my viewpoint is limited, but the party store I've been going to might be a microcosm. Whereas almost everybody, customers and workers, wore masks just two days ago, today was quite busy there and me and one other guy were the only customers wearing masks. Also, only about half of the workers were wearing them. Apparently, Americans really don't like being told what to do. I'm starting to wonder if Biden making masks mandatory might be a disaster. I wish I was kidding...
Edit: I think I'm going to do my Thanksgiving grocery shopping at midnight.
@Balrog99 "Americans really don't like being told what to do. I'm starting to wonder if Biden making masks mandatory might be a disaster. I wish I was kidding..."
The alternative is that this never ends. People acted the same way during the big Flu pandemic, and masks had to be enforced by police.
Yikes. One day after Whitmer announced her shutdown orders things here in my Michigan neighborhood have changed dramatically. Granted my viewpoint is limited, but the party store I've been going to might be a microcosm. Whereas almost everybody, customers and workers, wore masks just two days ago, today was quite busy there and me and one other guy were the only customers wearing masks. Also, only about half of the workers were wearing them. Apparently, Americans really don't like being told what to do. I'm starting to wonder if Biden making masks mandatory might be a disaster. I wish I was kidding...
Edit: I think I'm going to do my Thanksgiving grocery shopping at midnight.
Again, where was this contingent of rebels ripping off their shirt and shoes every time they entered a gas station to prove how they weren't going to be "told what to do"?? Why doesn't everyone just drive 90 mph on the freeway?? Ignore stop signs, use the crosswalk while traffic is going full speed in both directions??
I have a problem with authority too, this isn't that. It's wearing a mildly annoying cloth covering over your face so you don't start a chain of events that kills someone. Why do we have to treat half the population like toddlers to get them to do the bare minimum necessary to combat this?? Would they like a cookie and a gold star as well?? It's gonna be at LEAST another month before the vaccine starts to roll out in limited supply. The vaccine itself is in two parts, and the immunity takes about 28 days total to kick in. We have a near crisis situation in the short-term, and we are having to spend time wondering if we need to be doing reverse psychology on emotionally stunted morons.
Apathy? We have demonstrations after demonstrations in different cities here in Germany against the "oppression" due to the pandemic regulations, all without masks or minimum distance and with a lot of rioting against the police. I do sympathize that the "lockdown light" is nonsensical in some places (schools are open normally without even masks inside the classroom, but in the afternoon the kids are supposed to play with other kids of only one other household etc.), but those people do see themselves not only as opposition but as resistance, and they do compare theselves with the resistance against the Nazi regime! While marching with Ultrarights!
We have a saying in German: I can't even eat as much as I would like to vomit. Sorry for the language.
EDIT: @smeagolheart my post wasn't really a reply to yours or meant to contradict it in any way, sorry if this came accross as such.
@Arvia in the school of my kids it's "Mask everywhere including outside during break but not during classes". Classes are as full as normal, no chance to keep the required minimum distance. And to only meet people of one other household during free time is as far as I know government regulation for whole Germany currently.
Comments
I just had oral surgery today (surgical implant posts installed) and I was prescribed a post-surgery antibiotic. There is some conjecture that antibiotics can leave you more susceptible to the flu and was wondering if the risks of taking it in this Covid-19 environment might be greater than the potential benefit. Any thoughts?
Right now, the exposed and damaged tissues in your mouth are the bigger danger.
That was my thought too, but then I substituted 'Covid-19' for 'flu' and seeing as that virus is going, well for want of a better word, viral, it made me think about probabilities. My mind goes into full-on spreadsheet mode when probabilities and statistics are involved! Antibiotics do suppress your immune system, especially the benefits your gut bacteria provide.
@Arvia already set me straight (privately). I'll take my meds like a good boy now... ?
Having looked online I can find no reference to such a rumour except in relation to experiments on mice relating to tropical fevers such as Dengue fever. The nearest I came was on the WHO's Coronavirus disease (COVID-19) advice for the public: Mythbusters web page.
TR
There are findings that the friendly bacteria in your gut are part of the early-warning system your body uses to fight disease. I've read a little about it so was just wondering if other people knew more about it than me and could apprise me of the relative risk of taking indiscriminate antibiotics during a pandemic.
TR
Which is why I asked the question before I started the course!
Other than the potential effect on gut bacteria, NHS advice includes the following:
"Very rarely, antibiotic treatment will cause a drop in the blood count, including the numbers of white cells that fight infection. This corrects itself when the treatment is stopped."
TR
Nick's Covid Advice for CS161: Prepare to go to ground now
As you know, I've been following COVID very closely and trying to keep students informed of the situation. And although I'm not an epidemiologist, my research includes the computer equivalents. We are about to enter a very, very dark December and you should all prepare now.
As a reminder, COVID is an airborne pathogen but requires a significant challenge dose to be infected. Airborne/aerosol means it is carried around in particles with roughly the size and behavior of smoke. Worse, asymptomatic but infected individuals spread the virus very effectively. Talking and singing spread more particles than just breathing. This is why mask wearing is so critical: even the most basic cloth mask acts as a fairly effective filter for these particles when you breath out.
So imagine an infected person is smoking a joint. For a pathogen like measles, if you smell the joint and were unvaccinated you'd be infected. With COVID, you need a contact high. This is why outdoors is so much safer than indoors, fleeting contact is far less significant than sustained contact, and why restaurants, bars, and family gatherings are such effective spreaders. A bar, especially in winter, is a literal COVID hot-box.
It is also important to understand the risk. For most University students the risk you face if you are infected with COVID is in roughly the same ballpark as joining a fraternity. But it is a very different story for your parents: Even in the 40-50 year old range a COVID infection has a roughly 0.5% fatality rate when the hospital systems are well functioning, and this can drastically increase with both age and if the hospital system is overloaded. Unless you are a sociopath, you would probably feel badly if, say, your wedding lead directly to 7 deaths.
At the same time, we are all suffering from COVID fatigue and claustrophobia. We want this to end. The good news is it will, soonish. The timeline for widespread vaccinations in the spring is looking good, not just the Pfizer vaccine but others in the pipeline, and one of the few things the Administration has gotten right is building the distribution infrastructure now and agreeing to buy now large amounts of vaccine when it becomes available.
But with that background, the US is about to enter a crisis even worse than the first wave.
Cases have doubled in a little more than 10 days, the hospitals are already as full as they were in the first wave, and the US is proceeding like nothing is wrong. United just added over 1400 flights for Thanksgiving. At the same time the healthcare system is already breaking down: El Paso now has 10 refrigerated trucks serving as a temporary morgue while the state of Texas is suing to overturn local restrictions designed to reduce the spread! Worse, hospitalizations lag cases by about a week and deaths by two weeks. And yet a good 30% of the country thinks that masks are some plot to corrupt our precious bodily fluids.
This third wave is twice as many cases as the second (the first wave doesn't count for this comparison because the testing regime was too weak then). That second wave had an average daily death toll of over 1000/day. So as a nation we will be lucky if there is only one more doubling of the rate of new infections and a month of 2000-3000 dead each day: substantially more than the first wave. But with the Thanksgiving holiday coming up, we are looking at a very dark December as so many are actively ignoring the pandemic.
So what to do?
It is time to effectively "go to ground", prepare to shelter in place for the next couple of months like the initial lockdown. If you are with your parents, stay there. But if you aren't, do not return home unless they get sick: this includes both Thanksgiving and the Christmas holiday. Don't dine indoors, don't work out indoors, don't meet anyone outside your household indoors. And spread the word to your family and those you love.
Thanksgiving-time shopping is going to be particularly perilous. Grocery shop for the next two weeks now to avoid the pre-Thanksgiving mobs at the stores. When you do go out, try to wear one of the disposable blue procedure masks rather than just a cloth mask: procedure masks do offer some level of incoming protection. The N95s you got for the fires are not appropriate as they have breather valves, if you wear one of those, wear a cloth or blue-disposable over it.
If your parents or relatives want you home for the holidays, reply that you love them too much to risk it. If they press further, say something like "I give you a bowl of 200 M&Ms. One will kill you. One will cripple you. Everyone over 40 gets to eat one if we have a family gathering. Grandma needs to eat 5. That is what happens if someone brings Covid to the family gathering."
It is going to be a dark end to a dark year. But there is light ahead. The multiple vaccine candidates are looking very very good, the distribution system is in place, and Pfizer alone is gearing up for a billion+ doses in the next several months and Pfizer is not the only one. So to end on a happy note, with high confidence my office hours in Fall 2021 will allow me to wait for people to show up in person rather than over zoom.
Is this the article?
https://apnews.com/article/iowa-south-dakota-coronavirus-pandemic-nebraska-north-dakota-bf7197b284401dea8b779cfa764dfab2
I know the way these people think because I grew up with them and in many ways I am one. Personally I wear my mask because I'd hate to infect somebody else, but I'm not afraid of the virus.
Yes, and that's great and all, but the ND health care system is about to crash, and it doesn't care if people are afraid or not:
https://www.valleynewslive.com/2020/11/14/nurses-say-nds-response-to-covid-19-is-a-dumpster-fire/
Man. That's nuts some of those quotes.
It's utterly amazing how people treat this like it's akin to overcoming a fear of heights by riding a roller coaster. This has nothing to do with bravery or personal growth. "If I just go out to restaurants more without a mask, that'll show the virus who the boss is". We're fundamentally too stupid as a country to face this.
Made as quick a trip as possible to the local Dollar Store on my lunch break. 4 employees, NONE wearing masks despite a sign outside requiring customers to. The other two customers wearing ones with it not covering their nose. That settles it for me. I'm having everything mailed or delivered until this subsides.
Our President has not attended a coronavirus task force meeting in five months and is literally doing nothing to fight the disease.
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-hasnt-attended-coronavirus-task-force-meeting-in-5-months-report-2020-11
Just stopped by a party store to pick up some beer for ? Sunday. Everybody, customer and employee alike, wore masks. It's really weird hearing about how other states are reacting. Maybe I'm just too close to a major city (Detroit) to see the rural effects...
https://www.newsweek.com/south-dakota-nurses-tweets-about-covid-positive-patients-who-dont-believe-virus-go-viral-1547727
Edit: I think I'm going to do my Thanksgiving grocery shopping at midnight.
The alternative is that this never ends. People acted the same way during the big Flu pandemic, and masks had to be enforced by police.
Again, where was this contingent of rebels ripping off their shirt and shoes every time they entered a gas station to prove how they weren't going to be "told what to do"?? Why doesn't everyone just drive 90 mph on the freeway?? Ignore stop signs, use the crosswalk while traffic is going full speed in both directions??
I have a problem with authority too, this isn't that. It's wearing a mildly annoying cloth covering over your face so you don't start a chain of events that kills someone. Why do we have to treat half the population like toddlers to get them to do the bare minimum necessary to combat this?? Would they like a cookie and a gold star as well?? It's gonna be at LEAST another month before the vaccine starts to roll out in limited supply. The vaccine itself is in two parts, and the immunity takes about 28 days total to kick in. We have a near crisis situation in the short-term, and we are having to spend time wondering if we need to be doing reverse psychology on emotionally stunted morons.
We have a saying in German: I can't even eat as much as I would like to vomit. Sorry for the language.
EDIT: @smeagolheart my post wasn't really a reply to yours or meant to contradict it in any way, sorry if this came accross as such.