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Which class do you think is the best Mage Killer?

124

Comments

  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 513
    Something else
    Yes, vanilla a F/M is fine, but so is almost everything else since the AI is rubbish outside of SoD (good work devs by the way). But can you really call something a good magekiller if it can only kill rubbish mages?

    Rik_KirtaniyaRVNS
  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 96
    Something else
    Neverused said:

    Yes, vanilla a F/M is fine, but so is almost everything else since the AI is rubbish outside of SoD (good work devs by the way). But can you really call something a good magekiller if it can only kill rubbish mages?

    I can if it can kill every mage in the game with ease and consistently. And quickly. Hence my comment several times: once consistency is confirmed, only speed matters.

    Then if you start talking mods, litterally anything can happen, so this debate would make as much sense as a 5-legged red sadness with explosions.

    chimaera
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 513
    Something else
    Except I am highly, highly questioning consistency. SCS is a very common mod people run, and I don't want to give other people reading this thread the false impression that a F/M is actually going to have an easy time vs a SCS Mage. Heck, even vs a Vanilla Lich you have major, major issues since Breach doesn't even WORK vs them outside of an SCS component. You have to survive 4 rounds of a full arcane spellcaster's wrath and then 4 rounds per however many other contingency PfMW's he has before you can touch him with weapons.

    I'd call a F/M great at killing crappy mages, good at killing good mages if the player plays perfectly, and just as bad as everyone else at killing good mages if the player does not play perfectly.

    Rik_KirtaniyaRVNS
  • RVNSRVNS Member Posts: 252
    Druid or Shaman
    I have to agree with @Neverused on this. Vanilla mages might as well be exp flavored jerky. They are about as potent as bag of kittens versus a tarrasque.

    I think you can't really judge by vanilla as this is really a poor representation of what a high level mage is actually and should be represented by.

  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 96
    edited August 10
    Something else
    I'm sorry, then if mods are considered, here is my assessment of the F/M for this thread:

    I use a mod that gives to the F/M 20 spells a day of each level, and all enemy mages in the game are immune to anything that does not come from a F/M.
    I now claim that F/M is the best at killing mages. Hell, he is the only who can.

    ...
    ...

    No, sorry, no mods, only vanilla. You want to reach the majority of players? I can assure you that the VAST majority of players play vanilla. Those who have mods, especially scs or ascension, know the game very well. They also know exactly what their mods are doing. So do not worry, they won't be lost here.
    If you want to discuss best mage killer with scs, feel free to do so, but please create another thread to avoid confusion for the 95% of the players who do not.
    So, no mods. Vanilla. If you consider mods, obviously of course everything changes! That is precisely what mods are for!!!
    @RVNS it is your right to think mages are not well represented in vanilla, and I am sure many share your opinion. But vanilla, by definition, is not depicting them as how they could/should be, but as how they actually really are. Now many other players would actually say the other way around: that mages vanilla are too powerful (especially compared to other classes). And will seek mods that fix that! Hence the "no mod" policy. Frankly, guys, if you want this thread to be focused on mods rather than vanilla, then just say so, I'll withdraw from everything I said. And I won't take part in the discussions as it is only going to be a big Teletubbies WTF.



    Now regarding vanilla and the fact that in some situations F/M may not be the best.
    Yes, you are correct. In some cases, F/M will require extra time to get the job done. It is rare, but it happens. You are 100% correct. In the meantime, the F/M is virtualy invincible, as he has his own spells. So killing is still safe and consistent, just not as fast. So if we evaluate the entire playthrough, I believe F/M are best. I never pretended they were ALWAYS the best.

    As I said numerous times (just read the thread), it is situational and sometimes another class will do better. Typical classes include Inquisitors, assassins, F/T, M/T etc.
    In vanilla, this has always been my answer, and will be until proven otherwise (i.e. show me another class consistent at killing mages that would be overall faster).

    I hope this clarifies... because apparently numerous other posts of mine earlier were not clear enough, and I apologise if there was confusion.

    dunbar
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 6,247
    Druid or Shaman
    @ArchGhost "Thieves are not item dependent to kill mages, especially if multiclassed with spellcasters. it's the most mechanically OP class in the game with items, yes, but it doesn't need them to pull off mage kills."

    So, how exactly does a thief kill a mage without items? You can trap them I suppose, but what about True Sight? There is the blind trick, but thats more of an engine exploit more than a game encouraged tactic. And of course multiclasses don't have the same issue. Anything multiclassed with mage won't use the same tactics in battle. I specifically mentioned, "thieves" for a reason.

    RVNS
  • RVNSRVNS Member Posts: 252
    Druid or Shaman
    @Durmir46

    I enjoy hearing your opinion and your thoughts. If you would not like to include mods that is fine for the sake of discussion.

    I have stated in previous posts that even in vanilla I find the druid to still be superior to a fighter mage in terms of ability to safely and efficiently dispose of a mage.

    My point was that even in higher difficulties and with commonly used mods that the druid still holds up as a much more viable option. This is my opinion of course. just as it is yours that the f/m is your go to.

    I am not trying to dissuade you from your answer or even take away from your answer. I do not however agree that in game high level mages make good representations of their counter parts due to poor AI in vanilla.

    Durmir46
  • StummvonBordwehrStummvonBordwehr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 342
    Inquisitor
    Thanks everybody for the abundance of insightful advice - and for still keeping it civil o:) .

    The question asked is this thread, is what we think individually is the best way to kill mages.

    I admit that the many insightful and clever ways to bring down mages, are inspiring. But I still think that taking some counter measures, and then beating the mage with a stick is the best way to take him down. Obviously not the most efficient, but I think its the best way - for me at least.

    RVNSDurmir46BorekZaghoul
  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 96
    Something else

    Thanks everybody for the abundance of insightful advice - and for still keeping it civil o:) .

    The question asked is this thread, is what we think individually is the best way to kill mages.

    I admit that the many insightful and clever ways to bring down mages, are inspiring. But I still think that taking some counter measures, and then beating the mage with a stick is the best way to take him down. Obviously not the most efficient, but I think its the best way - for me at least.

    That's a very good point, tbh, and the reason why I still leave the door open to the inquisitor. My only worry with him is the critical miss from the dispel and the lack of protection against said mages. Offensively, inquisitors are better than F/M against mages, as their dispel will land and remove everything in well over 97% of cases, opening the way to crack open a skull like a walnut.

    @RVNS regarding the representation of the mages, my personal opinion is half-way: on the one hand I believe they should benefit from a much better AI (if I had access to all the spells they have access to, I would most certainly use them differently to say the least... :# ). However I also do think that currently, high level mages are just completely OP compared to other classes. Which can be solved in two different ways: make finding and learning new spells a lot harder, so you actually need effort and resources in a way that you cannot afford more than a few different spells per level (to balance with sorcerers, reduce the amount of spells they can innately learn; do not modify number of spells a day); OR straight remove a number of spells from the game, such as Time Stop (just leave it to some of the nastiest enemies to add some flavour of uniqueness to them), chain contingency, Spell Trigger, most HLAs, half the defensive spells, and nerf some offensive spells such as skull traps, ADHW, etc. If you do that and give them a better AI, then you get a balanced, realistic representation of mages.
    Then I can see why druids could be better mage killers in mods: they really need a boost in vanilla, so I assume this is provided in mods. In vanilla, they are low damage dealers, average buffers, they are fairly squishy and they are 100% replaceable. I would love to see more druid-specific spells, nature-oriented, such as a 1-target entangle with -5 penalty to saving throws and that deals damage, that would go through defenses; I would love to see a ultimate Beast Call summon similar to a Pit Fiend but that obeys you fully; I would love to see some Poisonous Gust, that launches a wave of poison at the ennemy, blinding them temporarily, poisoning them and reducing their saving throws for a short time; I would love to see shapeshifts that are actually great, like dragons (would have to be balanced) or Greater Wyverns. Etc. But in vanilla... There are actually mages they won't kill, or with tremendous effort, time and probably luck and/or cheese.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 564
    Something else
    My Fighter/Thief says "My class." and then facepalms.

    Yeah, I know, he gets some crazy ideas from time to time...

    RVNSStummvonBordwehrborntodie
  • SkatanSkatan Member Posts: 3,217
    edited August 10
    Druid or Shaman
    I am crap at fighting high level mages and usually end up using low-level spells and some minor cheese to take them out (like spamming webs which is my usual way of defeating ie Davearon at low levels in BG1). I find vanilla mages difficult at times and have never played the SCS. I still have trouble fighting the "secret" hideout in BG2 where you get the staff of magi for example. So with this said this might sound really stupid, but would a clerics summon fire blade work to attack through PFMW? It says in the description it does not count as a magic weapon and if you play a F/C dwarf you should get negative saves to protect your from most attacks that require saves and still be able to attack 10 times per round with HLA's or at least 3 APR without HLA's. Kinda the same as using the throwing daggers of poison (unecnhanted) though those should be blocked by PFmissiles.

    Playing a C/M (illusionist) gnome now and I find the synergy of a chosen magic school working with the cleric domains to be a really good combo. What would be the best clerical spells to use vs pure mages that could benefit from a mage school of choice if you went with a dualclassed mage to cleric or a keepered multiclassed C/M with a mage school? We all know of the doom+gm combo etc, but I am not sure that works vs really brutal mages in SCS since you still have to strip their defenses and a MC with it's lower levels of mage might be worse.

    Anyways, just some random thoughts.

    Being crappy I think an avenger is a good magekiller for someone like we me since they get web and can spam that and IE, fire seeds, nymphs, etc. So I voted druid for this kit.

    RVNSStummvonBordwehr
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 608
    Something else
    @Skatan
    You don't need to wait until getting hlas or 10 apr to take on vanilla mages in BG2. Try insect plague (and creeping doom against liches) cast on a friendly target, it really is that good.

    Your gnome should get a bonus as an illusionist, so the blindness spell will be harder to resist for the enemies. It is a great disabler at lower levels. When an enemy is blinded, they have a very narrow sight radius, so as long as you don't engage them in melee, they will just stand there.

    And at least in the original game - though perhaps the ee improved them? - the enemy mages weren't that good at dealing with the mustard jelly from the polymorph self spell.

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 6,247
    Druid or Shaman
    @Durmir46 "Then I can see why druids could be better mage killers in mods: they really need a boost in vanilla, so I assume this is provided in mods. In vanilla, they are low damage dealers, average buffers, they are fairly squishy and they are 100% replaceable."

    You keep saying Druids are poor damage dealers, but I don't see it. Creeping Doom, their high level summons, and Fire Seeds can dish out some serious damage. And thats not even getting into HLAs. Do you want to explain what makes them bad at dealing damage?

    Rik_Kirtaniya
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,493
    Skatan said:

    Playing a C/M (illusionist) gnome now and I find the synergy of a chosen magic school working with the cleric domains to be a really good combo. What would be the best clerical spells to use vs pure mages that could benefit from a mage school of choice if you went with a dualclassed mage to cleric or a keepered multiclassed C/M with a mage school? We all know of the doom+gm combo etc, but I am not sure that works vs really brutal mages in SCS since you still have to strip their defenses and a MC with it's lower levels of mage might be worse.

    Clerics have fewer spells than mages which directly affect targets. Some good ones are in the enchantment school, e.g. hold or domination. Another interesting choice would be evocation to give things like flame strike, blade barrier and sunray a boost.

  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 96
    edited August 11
    Something else
    ThacoBell said:

    @Durmir46 "Then I can see why druids could be better mage killers in mods: they really need a boost in vanilla, so I assume this is provided in mods. In vanilla, they are low damage dealers, average buffers, they are fairly squishy and they are 100% replaceable."

    You keep saying Druids are poor damage dealers, but I don't see it. Creeping Doom, their high level summons, and Fire Seeds can dish out some serious damage. And thats not even getting into HLAs. Do you want to explain what makes them bad at dealing damage?

    This is the very first time I read CD and Fire Seeds are good damage dealers, so what about the other way around: YOU explain me how 36 damage over 3 seconds (CD) or 9 damage per round on average (Fire seeds) compete against proper damage dealing abilities? Especially since you are gonna deal that damage until the end of the game, while everyone else keeps progressing...

    Fighters: take a lvl15 fighter, 18/92 STR, with a +3 axe (and a shield, I would not want to lose you here) and 5 pips in axe. with nothing else, he is already gonna dish 55.5 damage per round. Now if you make him use potion of speed or some abilities (or bonuses from kit), that means at lvl15 (quite early in the game), a fighter is already gonna deal around 2 to 3 times your damage.

    Mages: a lvl15 mage/sorcerer casting a skull trap to ya face will deal 52.5 damage, half if you save. That is just a skull trap. Lvl3 spell. Only one, cast instantly. Send 2 in a Minor spell sequencer or 4 in a spell trigger. Do the maths. Now consider the damage increases by 3.5 per level of the mage. And again, that is only a lvl3 spell. Do not get me started on ADHW and HLAs, but it is not necessary. I will not mention spells that downright kill enemies regardless of HP, including those with no saving throws and no MR, because then it's cheating ;)

    Thief: a lvl15 backstab with a +3 staff is gonna woop a 42.5 with a low STR thief (and obviously garbage equipment), instantly, and it is already comparable to 6 secs of your CD+fire seeds. I do not want to mention traps here, because the numbers can quickly become crazy, and I want to prove the point with low crap (lvl 15 fighter with 1 weapon and crap equipment, lvl 3 arcane spell, shit thief with lame equipment etc.)

    I could go on but I think you get the idea. So please, demonstrate to me how CD and Fire Seeds make the druid a good damage dealer. It is litterally one of the lowest damage dealers in the game. And the fact that he does not get better at this over time is a worry to say the least. Druids are not damage dealers, they are supporters who stay behind, cast a couple of buffs and summon a thing or two. This is their role. If you rely on them for damage dealing, the game is going to last forever...


    EDIT: again, I understand the love for druids, but people have to stay objective. They do not fly, they do not fart meteors, they do not have kamehamehas, they do not launch nuclear missiles from their eyes. They are not good damage dealers, they are not consistent nor quick at killing mages, they are squishy, etc. They are a support class. That is what they do.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,493
    @durmir46 you're not making a fair comparison. A druid has multiple ways of causing damage, not just one. With a mage rendered helpless by an insect plague the druid could then:
    - attack with the summon(s) that were used to deliver the insect plague in the first place.
    - use further spells or item attacks if necessary (which it normally wouldn't be).
    - attack with melee weapons or missiles such as darts of wounding.
    All those would be happening at the same time, meaning almost any mage's life would be very short - and, unlike a fighter, the druid would be vulnerable to spells cast in that period.

    Fire seeds are not primarily used as a damage dealer, but for tactical purposes, e.g. to deliver effects like assassin poison or wizard slayer spell failure against creatures that are protected against weapon attacks and spells.

    ThacoBellRik_Kirtaniya
  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 96
    Something else
    Grond0 said:

    @durmir46 you're not making a fair comparison. A druid has multiple ways of causing damage, not just one. With a mage rendered helpless by an insect plague the druid could then:
    - attack with the summon(s) that were used to deliver the insect plague in the first place.
    - use further spells or item attacks if necessary (which it normally wouldn't be).
    - attack with melee weapons or missiles such as darts of wounding.
    All those would be happening at the same time, meaning almost any mage's life would be very short - and, unlike a fighter, the druid would be vulnerable to spells cast in that period.

    Fire seeds are not primarily used as a damage dealer, but for tactical purposes, e.g. to deliver effects like assassin poison or wizard slayer spell failure against creatures that are protected against weapon attacks and spells.

    I was mostly answering to @ThacoBell who said Fire Seeds and Creeping Doom are great damage dealing spells.

    Now tbh, summons from the druid really don't deal much damage (rarely more than a 10 per round). Druids do not have many damaging spells, and they are usually lacklusting. Melee is not an option unless you are dual/multi with a fighter and even ranged is underwhelming, mostly because of the proficiency restrictions, poor THAC0 and low APR.
    You can try to make everything happen at once, which will require much preparation, last only a short time and would still be vastly inferior to specialised fighters, mages or thieves.

    Thing is, druids were designed as a support class, and it is really what they are. I believe it is actually unfair to compare their damage to classes that were designed to deal massive amounts of it. This is why I would prefer a thousand times to read "druids are good supporters" than "druids are good damage dealers". It would be like saying "sorcerers are great melee fighters". Sure, you can do something around that, using Staff of the Magi, proper buffs and such. But it is simply not true, sorcerers are poorly equipped for melee fight, the same way druids are not equipped for damage dealing: it is not their primary role. If they can top some damage to what the rest of the team deals, it is great and probably helpful, but you would not rely on your druid to deal the damage.

  • borntodieborntodie Member Posts: 51
    edited August 11
    Something else
    It is probably better to look at a fighter>druid dual if killing speed is really an issue. The weird druid xp curve makes them exceptionally easy to finish a dual with. Of course the fighter will have a kit too. Wizard slayer was already mentioned for SCS, but for vanilla I'd say berserker is better if you want a character who excels at killing mages through the whole trilogy, right from level 1 on.

    Durmir46
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 2,572
    edited August 11
    Inquisitor
    I voted Inquisitor because they're pretty awesome mage killers in a party. Playing with Keldorn has proven that to me time and time again.

    For a solo run I think that Bounty Hunter might be the best though with all the traps. I have a BH in SOD right now at 12th level and I'm amazed at the power and versatility he has. I plan on bringing him to BG2 and dualing him to mage at level 14 (don't want Maze traps but want the most thief abilities). With dispel illusion, stealth and traps on top of mage spells he should be pretty well equipped to take on any mage!

    Anybody try Shadowdancer as mage killer? With the right items that could be interesting...

    Durmir46Grond0Rik_KirtaniyaAerakar
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,493
    Durmir46 said:

    Grond0 said:

    @durmir46 you're not making a fair comparison. A druid has multiple ways of causing damage, not just one. With a mage rendered helpless by an insect plague the druid could then:
    - attack with the summon(s) that were used to deliver the insect plague in the first place.
    - use further spells or item attacks if necessary (which it normally wouldn't be).
    - attack with melee weapons or missiles such as darts of wounding.
    All those would be happening at the same time, meaning almost any mage's life would be very short - and, unlike a fighter, the druid would be vulnerable to spells cast in that period.

    Fire seeds are not primarily used as a damage dealer, but for tactical purposes, e.g. to deliver effects like assassin poison or wizard slayer spell failure against creatures that are protected against weapon attacks and spells.

    I was mostly answering to @ThacoBell who said Fire Seeds and Creeping Doom are great damage dealing spells.

    Now tbh, summons from the druid really don't deal much damage (rarely more than a 10 per round). Druids do not have many damaging spells, and they are usually lacklusting. Melee is not an option unless you are dual/multi with a fighter and even ranged is underwhelming, mostly because of the proficiency restrictions, poor THAC0 and low APR.
    You can try to make everything happen at once, which will require much preparation, last only a short time and would still be vastly inferior to specialised fighters, mages or thieves.

    Thing is, druids were designed as a support class, and it is really what they are. I believe it is actually unfair to compare their damage to classes that were designed to deal massive amounts of it. This is why I would prefer a thousand times to read "druids are good supporters" than "druids are good damage dealers". It would be like saying "sorcerers are great melee fighters". Sure, you can do something around that, using Staff of the Magi, proper buffs and such. But it is simply not true, sorcerers are poorly equipped for melee fight, the same way druids are not equipped for damage dealing: it is not their primary role. If they can top some damage to what the rest of the team deals, it is great and probably helpful, but you would not rely on your druid to deal the damage.
    I think @ThacoBell was saying that Fire Seeds and Creeping Doom could kill mages quickly, rather than that they were great damage dealing spells. Those 2 spells on their own would do 90+ damage within 3 rounds and not many mages will survive that ;).

    The original premise of the thread is which class is the best mage killer. If you're using the capabilities of a party then it doesn't really matter what your class is, so it seems sensible to me to consider the capabilities of a solo character. We're also talking about killing mages and they don't typically have particularly good AC. That means that druids (with the second best THAC0 after warriors) have an easy time hitting - so melee is indeed a perfectly good option against them (and druids can use Belm to give APR a boost in BG2). When you add in attacks by summons (a single fire elemental would average about 20 damage per round), mages will struggle to survive even 2 rounds after being hit by a single Creeping Doom.

    ThacoBellRik_KirtaniyaAerakar
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 6,247
  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 96
    edited August 11
    Something else
    Grond0 said:

    Durmir46 said:

    Grond0 said:

    @durmir46 you're not making a fair comparison. A druid has multiple ways of causing damage, not just one. With a mage rendered helpless by an insect plague the druid could then:
    - attack with the summon(s) that were used to deliver the insect plague in the first place.
    - use further spells or item attacks if necessary (which it normally wouldn't be).
    - attack with melee weapons or missiles such as darts of wounding.
    All those would be happening at the same time, meaning almost any mage's life would be very short - and, unlike a fighter, the druid would be vulnerable to spells cast in that period.

    Fire seeds are not primarily used as a damage dealer, but for tactical purposes, e.g. to deliver effects like assassin poison or wizard slayer spell failure against creatures that are protected against weapon attacks and spells.

    I was mostly answering to @ThacoBell who said Fire Seeds and Creeping Doom are great damage dealing spells.

    Now tbh, summons from the druid really don't deal much damage (rarely more than a 10 per round). Druids do not have many damaging spells, and they are usually lacklusting. Melee is not an option unless you are dual/multi with a fighter and even ranged is underwhelming, mostly because of the proficiency restrictions, poor THAC0 and low APR.
    You can try to make everything happen at once, which will require much preparation, last only a short time and would still be vastly inferior to specialised fighters, mages or thieves.

    Thing is, druids were designed as a support class, and it is really what they are. I believe it is actually unfair to compare their damage to classes that were designed to deal massive amounts of it. This is why I would prefer a thousand times to read "druids are good supporters" than "druids are good damage dealers". It would be like saying "sorcerers are great melee fighters". Sure, you can do something around that, using Staff of the Magi, proper buffs and such. But it is simply not true, sorcerers are poorly equipped for melee fight, the same way druids are not equipped for damage dealing: it is not their primary role. If they can top some damage to what the rest of the team deals, it is great and probably helpful, but you would not rely on your druid to deal the damage.
    I think @ThacoBell was saying that Fire Seeds and Creeping Doom could kill mages quickly, rather than that they were great damage dealing spells. Those 2 spells on their own would do 90+ damage within 3 rounds and not many mages will survive that ;).

    The original premise of the thread is which class is the best mage killer. If you're using the capabilities of a party then it doesn't really matter what your class is, so it seems sensible to me to consider the capabilities of a solo character. We're also talking about killing mages and they don't typically have particularly good AC. That means that druids (with the second best THAC0 after warriors) have an easy time hitting - so melee is indeed a perfectly good option against them (and druids can use Belm to give APR a boost in BG2). When you add in attacks by summons (a single fire elemental would average about 20 damage per round), mages will struggle to survive even 2 rounds after being hit by a single Creeping Doom.

    I agree the topic is precisely who can kill mages the fastest, hence my focus on CD and Fire Seeds aforementioned (I decided to disregard summons because summons cannot attack mages under their protective spells).
    First of, you cannot consistently kill mages with CR or IP, because it does not bypass MR, and many mages have pretty high MR (as soon as the Underdark with the drows). And these mages will simply kill you because you cannot protect against them.
    Second of, almost every single decent mage in SoA+ has contingencies that will protect against everything else than CD and Fire seeds shot at a pet nearby. Hence my focus on these 2 spells, that together will deal lower damage than any of the three classes I just mentioned.
    Finally, several enemy mages in the game, MR or not, will start with time stop. Druids cannot prevent that, because IP and CD simply do not travel fast enough to reach the mage before Time Stop is released, and there is little chance you would survive it.

    But even if the druid manages to land it and proceeds to killing the mage, CD lasts only 3 rounds (and takes half a round to cast again), dealing a total of 36 damage. Fire Seeds deal 9 damage per round, for a total of 67 damage over 3 rounds on average (how did you get to 90+?), which is not enough to finish off most mages, forcing to recast CD during the third round (because if you wait for 3 rounds to be over, the mage can cast and you're most likely dead), therefore losing you chance at shooting another seed (so you would actually deal 58 damage over 3 rounds), and considering the numbers it is going to require almost another entire 3 rounds against most mages in ToB at least.
    6 rounds minimum to kill mages, and being unable to kill many mages in the game with no cheese, does not qualify to any title in mage killing, in my book at least. Per round, you would be dealing 21 damage on average with CD and Fire Seeds, this is vastly inferior to most classes.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 6,247
    edited August 11
    Druid or Shaman
    @Durmir46 "First of, you cannot consistently kill mages with CR or IP"

    Yes you can. I've killed HUNDREDS of mages this way without them ever being able to retaliate. Your claim is objectively false.

    Rik_Kirtaniya
  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 96
    edited August 11
    Something else
    ThacoBell said:

    @Durmir46 "First of, you cannot consistently kill mages with CR or IP"

    Yes you can. I've killed HUNDREDS of mages this way without them ever being able to retaliate. Your claim is objectively false.

    I am not surprised you did not read my posts, but please do so before replying these... things.
    Consistently = all of them at minimal risk. Hope this helps when you read the thread to understand points made earlier.
    This is becoming tiring, I'll be honest. I understand, I get it: you love druids. Everything else pales in comparison to your eyes. Hell, Ao is probably a druid himself for all we know. Can we now go back to the topic and analyse this? I love these threads because I usually learn a lot, so please let us keep it civil and let us consider each others' arguments before coming in like a wrecking ball (dang, now I have this poor excuse for music in my head).

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 608
    edited August 11
    Something else
    @Durmir46
    You claim that you can't consistently defeat mages with druidic spells, yet this is not my experience and it doesn't seem to be the experience of other players in this thread. At which point it might be more the matter of your playstyle than that of druidic powers, because most of the tough battles in BG2 actually give the player the advantage.

    Liches (except for maybe two) have to crawl out of the sacrophagus first, before they can cast time stop. The twisted rune goes through their sparkly show before they attack. The guarded compound conveniently waits at the top of the stairs. And by the time a solo character lands in the Underdark, they will likely be at ToB levels. A solo druid will be summoning elemental princes then.

    ThacoBellRik_Kirtaniya
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 6,247
    Druid or Shaman
    Durmir46 said:

    ThacoBell said:

    @Durmir46 "First of, you cannot consistently kill mages with CR or IP"

    Yes you can. I've killed HUNDREDS of mages this way without them ever being able to retaliate. Your claim is objectively false.

    I am not surprised you did not read my posts, but please do so before replying these... things.
    Consistently = all of them at minimal risk. Hope this helps when you read the thread to understand points made earlier.
    This is becoming tiring, I'll be honest. I understand, I get it: you love druids. Everything else pales in comparison to your eyes. Hell, Ao is probably a druid himself for all we know. Can we now go back to the topic and analyse this? I love these threads because I usually learn a lot, so please let us keep it civil and let us consider each others' arguments before coming in like a wrecking ball (dang, now I have this poor excuse for music in my head).
    Ad Hominem attacks do not bolster your argument.

    Rik_KirtaniyaContemplative_Hamster
  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 96
    Something else
    chimaera said:

    @Durmir46
    You claim that you can't consistently defeat mages with druidic spells, yet this is not my experience and it doesn't seem to be the experience of other players in this thread. At which point it might be more the matter of your playstyle than that of druidic powers, because most of the tough battles in BG2 actually give the player the advantage.

    Liches (except for maybe two) have to crawl out of the sacrophagus first, before they can cast time stop. The twisted rune goes through their sparkly show before they attack. The guarded compound conveniently waits at the top of the stairs. And by the time a solo character lands in the Underdark, they will likely be at ToB levels. A solo druid will be summoning elemental princes then.

    And summons will not go through mages' defenses. Only 3 or 4 liches in the game crawl out of sarcophagus and they are not targetable in the meantime, TR are not attackable until they attack themselves, etc. If you are talking about placing yourself, then you are meta-gaming, which is exactly what someone in this thread told me was abusive. And even if you don't, you still have many, many mages with high MR (and therefore that will purely ignore CD and IP) and liches that will straight attack you. How do you pass them? Answer: mages with high MR = reload until it lands; liches = scrolls. This does not register as "consistent".

    The reason why "other players" have had a different experience is precisely because they have always been in a team before.
    IP and CR do not go through to all mages in the game. This is a fact, cold and harsh. Try to play a druid solo, and you will realise this very quickly. The perk of being in a team is that other characters can make up for each other's weaknesses.

    Druids cannot be consistent at mage killing, this is game mechanics, not playstyle. And for the mages they can kill, it may require them a lot of time. There are reasons why the vast majority of players disagree with the statement "druids are the best mage killers in the game".

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 608
    Something else
    @Durmir46
    The point is you can cast the insects on a friendly target and it will spread. It's not more or less metagaming than using spell immunity to counter trap the soul. At which point, both the f/m and the druid lose against the dwarven berserker, who just hits the rage button and lifts the mace.

    As for the many, many mages with magic resistance... Considering your previous posts in this thread on liches (where you suggested to use lower resistance for their non-existent mr) it sounds like you might mistake buffs for actual resistance.

  • Durmir46Durmir46 Member Posts: 96
    edited August 11
    Something else
    Grond0 said:

    Durmir46 said:

    I agree the topic is precisely who can kill mages the fastest, hence my focus on CD and Fire Seeds aforementioned (I decided to disregard summons because summons cannot attack mages under their protective spells).
    First of, you cannot consistently kill mages with CR or IP, because it does not bypass MR, and many mages have pretty high MR (as soon as the Underdark with the drows). And these mages will simply kill you because you cannot protect against them.
    Second of, almost every single decent mage in SoA+ has contingencies that will protect against everything else than CD and Fire seeds shot at a pet nearby. Hence my focus on these 2 spells, that together will deal lower damage than any of the three classes I just mentioned.
    Finally, several enemy mages in the game, MR or not, will start with time stop. Druids cannot prevent that, because IP and CD simply do not travel fast enough to reach the mage before Time Stop is released, and there is little chance you would survive it.

    But even if the druid manages to land it and proceeds to killing the mage, CD lasts only 3 rounds (and takes half a round to cast again), dealing a total of 36 damage. Fire Seeds deal 9 damage per round, for a total of 67 damage over 3 rounds on average (how did you get to 90+?), which is not enough to finish off most mages, forcing to recast CD during the third round (because if you wait for 3 rounds to be over, the mage can cast and you're most likely dead), therefore losing you chance at shooting another seed (so you would actually deal 58 damage over 3 rounds), and considering the numbers it is going to require almost another entire 3 rounds against most mages in ToB at least.
    6 rounds minimum to kill mages, and being unable to kill many mages in the game with no cheese, does not qualify to any title in mage killing, in my book at least. Per round, you would be dealing 21 damage on average with CD and Fire Seeds, this is vastly inferior to most classes.

    I agree with you that this thread is getting tiring, so this will be my last post on it. Please note the following:
    - mages with magic resistance can be a problem for some classes, but the powerful summons available to druids can make light work of them without the druid himself ever having to even show himself (though that will take a bit more time).
    - if a mage does have contingencies most classes will take time to get through them and thus give the mage more of an opportunity to retaliate. That's not the case against a druid, i.e. while a fighter may kill a mage in about the same time as a druid in the absence of something like a PfMW contingency, with the contingency the druid is clearly quicker (as well as safer).
    - 90+ damage was assuming only the use of CD and fire seeds over a 3 round period. CD in the first round does 36 damage over that period, CD in the second round does 24 damage and CD in the 3rd round 12 damage. Obviously those spells cast in the second and third rounds would continue to do damage after that - except that the mage will be dead before they get the chance. I quoted that figure as you stated that those 2 spells did very limited damage, so I was demonstrating that they would do more than enough damage to kill mages even in a short period. I did also put in my post that it would be much more usual to just use a single insect spell and kill the mage before that wore off without the need for further spells.
    - as I've said repeatedly, insect spells can be cast on summons from well outside sight range of any enemy. Once the spell has been cast the summon can move close to the targeted enemy (you can use farsight for that to make absolutely sure the mage has no opportunity to target your druid). The chance of a targeted mage completing a time stop spell before his casting is shut down by that type of attack is 0%.
    - you've said a lot about how good mages and fighter/mages are at killing mages and I don't think anyone is arguing against that. However, you've also said a lot about how poor druids are, despite repeated comments from a number of players explaining why that's not the case. That suggests that you have much more limited experience of actually playing the game with druids than with mages - perhaps you might want to try one of those in your next play through ;).
    Indeed you are correct, I am not as familiar with druids as with the rest.
    I did not know that CD would deal that much damage, and it is certainly not clear in the description of the spell, that seem to mention only 36 damage over the entire course of 3 rounds. But again, I can't really say I am familiar with using this spell, and many descriptions are not accurate, due to patches, bugs etc. (woopies, 3 summons = 3 CD! got it. Loads of preparation, but that's fair.)
    I am not sure how a druid can pass a mage with MR and contingencies (that would keep summons at bay), only Fire Seeds remain, that really only deal 9 damage per round on average.

    I fully take your point on IP on summons. I did not have this in mind when I replied in my previous post (I lost it somewhere as I was taking into account before, but not anymore obviously), and I have no excuse as you indeed said that before. I can only apologise and I can understand your frustration (I have felt the same a few times myself on other points).

    My interrogations and challenges are really just to try to understand better, so I apologise if this was understood in any other way. I do that in many games I play. I like a bit of powergaming once in a while, and challenging claims is an excellent way to learn something and want to try something new. In my line of work (IRL), challenging experts is my day-to-day job and if there is one thing I have learnt along the years is that it is not because several people, even experienced ones, tell you the same thing, that it cannot be rightfully challenged. Makes every day a new and interesting day ;). And it drives innovation!

    @chimaera tbh I have never tried to solo a lich (solo is still something I need to do, and someone in another thread was making great case of the F/M/T, I might give it a try), so I cannot say 100% sure what works and what does not. My spell triggers are usually "general", rather than specific for 1 or 2 battles (I am a lazy slacker), so I just cast whatever is in my spell trigger. The rest of the team is enough to make short work of the lich. I therefore have never really noticed whether Lower Resistance is helping or not. And YES, I have a lot to learn, and YES I am looking forward to learning it! :). As I said, I already learnt a lot in this thread and I am sure it will continue! Baldur's Gate is a fantastic and simply huge game, notably because it draws on a universe decades old that updates/enriches itself over time, making for very complete, intricate rules, combos, and wonders.

    semiticgodGrond0Rik_KirtaniyaStummvonBordwehr
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