I voted "Yes and I think I'll skip it", but that is because there is no option for "Yes, for now at least".
Here is my reasoning.
Linear play, myriad of Bugs and broken mods:
This is the big one. Others below make me worried about this story and future stories beamdog develops - hopefully we have a more open minded world - but this one make me worried on the quality of the game.
A linear RPG is boring - BGI and BGII are exciting and interesting due to interesting side quests, open world. Heck, I play at least once or twice per year since they launched the originals and my favorite part is Act I & II of BGII. I add a ton of mods to my game to have the biggest amount of content possible with various alternatives.
So a very linear game story seems boring - specially so if they don't give many ways to complete quests or RP choices - and broken mods just make me sad.
So this ends up being the big reason I hold back on buying the game, I want to let the storm of the other issues pass so I can learn better on how these issues stand and, with respect to bugs and broken mods, at least have that fixed.
Now to the controversy:
The trans character:
I have absolutely 0 problems with adding diversity in the game - this, might I add, is nothing new to D&D or to ton of games. Heck D&D tabletop is, in essence, all about open roleplaying with a lot of diversity as the guy that wrote FR even came out and said (which I agree 100%) - who here never played tabletop as a different gender, belief or inclination needs to branch out their RP!
My issue with this character - and hopefully this appears that now will be addressed - is that adding a character that sticks out as a sore thumb, has a completely unrealistic dialogue and then, when the topic gets out of hand with actually interesting reviews / comments being dismissed as bigot by devs, the devs also come out and say in a ton of public media "that this is only one line of text out of thousands" - meaning - irrelevant.
Good job, now not only the devs put a target on that community by putting them on the spot (without a good NPC to stand on), when that community faces the crossfire the devs created the devs toss them to the lions and wash their hands of it saying that character/text is nothing important.... just shameful....
What the devs could have done and would be much appreciated in my view, would be to include this diversity - if the idea is to bring attention to this part of the character - with depth and in a thought provoking manner (with roleplay possibility).
E.g., add a quest that involves the player having the option to travel with an NPC to break a gender change spell for some reason another person ask. The PC then gets the chance to learn and sympathize with the NPC, gets to see more depth of the character, the player then has the chance to discover that the spell was done by choice and now the player has the dilemma of breaking the spell as requested (for some reason the quest giver would want the spell broken regardless of the NPC's choice) or helping the NPC stand by its choice. Both choices having good and bad consequences (guess what, a lot similar to how real life really is in these cases) - so as to be a bit thought provoking. (Think of Witcher 3 and how every choice has a good/bad side to it in that game and, thus, really makes you think on the difficulty of that choice).
In my view, if you want to add diversity so people will have a more open mind, then the right way is to make people think about and understand the issue/dilemma, not shove down their throat what you think they should think and feel otherwise you will only create bickering - so if at the end of the day someone goes and thinks they should break the spell (example above) let them or if think they should help the NPC stand by its choice let them.
You are not here to teach your moral views, you are here to entertain and, perhaps, provide a thought provoking experience. (Witcher 3 was brilliant in this)
Minsc "one liner":
Completely unnecessary to add fuel to an internet discussion with a lot of controversy. Just spitefulness of the writers.
Glad this is being removed.
"Baldur's Gate is sexist":
Here is a relevant problem. BGI & BGII had a lot of strong female characters, had a lot of weak female characters, strong male characters and weak male characters - your PC could even be a strong female character or a strong male character. The game had jokes on characters of both sexes (Hey, have the devs ever played BGII with Edwin and done his BGII personal quest??).
Also, with a good community mod (romance disregards race and gender) you could open all romanceable NPCs to any inclination.
The games also have, more importantly, a big array of diverse personalities.
The developers coming out and saying that they think the game is sexist because they personally dislike a personality of a few hand picked characters is blatant prejudice in my view.
The devs are essentially saying that no person in the world can act or think like that (i.e., think different than the devs) otherwise they are "sexist" / "bigots" / etc.
In my line of work I regularly meet several people of various walks of life and choices, and always get to know at least a bit of their personalities - and this may shock certain devs, but yes, some people act like Safana (less the murder - most of the time) or as Jaheira, or as Aerie, or as Viconia (again less murder - most of the time), or as Anomen, or as Edwin, etc.
Their personalities and beliefs do not necessarily make them "weak", "sexist", a "tool for men/patriarchal society" or anything of the sort. That is who they are, their personalities.
There is no right or wrong to a person personality or beliefs - there is only a wrong when we use our personality and beliefs as an excuse to be disrespectful / harmful to others.
The fact that the devs have decided that it is best to go out of their way to reduce the different personalities in the game so as to bring them in line with how the devs think people should "think and act" is really wrong in my view and I am sad that the developers support this one sided view and, dare I say, bigoted view "100%".
(At least that is what I gather from Trent's comment "we stand behind all our developers 100%")
This, sadly, is not recognized at all in Trent's post and makes me worried on how future stories will likely be more shallow because of this....
I'm basically still on the fence myself when it comes to buying SoD. Member Rody up here in the quote worded most of my worries better than I could myself.
I would like to add some things myself:
- The game was apparently released while it was still riddled with bugs, even game-breaking ones. That's a big no-no for me, and I'm not going to spend my money on that. - Jaheira has no voiced lines, and since she is one of my favourite characters, I'm really disappointed in this. Also the fact that Amber Scott apparently called her a 'nagging wife' felt a bit like a punch in the gut for me. Did she even play the game herself? - Safana's character got rewritten because apparently she can't have her own personality which was deemed 'sexist' by a team which contains people who have worked on the BG series before. Why they now suddenly go out of their way to call BG 'sexist' while that really isn't the case eludes me fully. - Poor portrayal of what could potentially be an interesting transgender character - Poor handling of the team on the backlash (Amber Scott's reply and Trent's own comments can be called amateuristic, to say the least) - Why did Minsc have to have a line referring to the GamerGate community? That's just throwing oil on the fire. Minsc is a popular character, however that doesn't mean he's gotta be abused for it. - As Rody pointed out, apparently the game is very linear and you can't revisit locations. This really breaks immersion for me. I loved travelling all over the map in the two BG games, especially BG 1 - I remember there being several issues with the enhanced editions of the game when they were released too, hence I'm holding off for a while until everything's fixed and patched in this expansion - I've heard the villain of this game is a Mary Sue. I'm not certain whether this is true, but I'll add it nonetheless - Apparently the writing also isn't up to expectations, according to some. But that's something I'll have to see for myself, I guess.
So yeah, lots of things which are really putting me in doubt when it comes to buying this expansion. Usually I'm not THAT critical when it comes to games, but I'm making an exception for the Baldur's Gate series since they have always held a special place in my heart. I think I'm not the only one. The BG series are something you handle with care, and the devs should've been more aware of that. Releasing something riddled with glitches and bugs hence leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth. Never underestimate the value of Q&A, guys.
Yes. The game has such controversial, liberal, toxic political-correctness that I had my purchase of the game refunded. In fact, I have gone so far to block Beamdog and all of their titles on Steam, and this could very well be my last communication on a Beamdog forum or on one of their associated pages.
I find a number of the characters to be offensive, and the belief of Beamdog that all Baldur's Gate games prior to Siege of Dragonspear are sexist to be absolutely ridiculous. Stop applying California/Berkeley level left-wing extremist views of today to a medieval fantasy GAME. As if that weren't enough, inviting some of the original voice actors back only to have them reference real-world politics is revolting.
Beamdog: I've purchased every Enhanced Edition that you made. I was here on the forums while Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition was a ways off from being released. I've purchased your games for my friends, and while I did not enjoy or heavily use any of the new content, I enjoyed the Enhanced Editions quite a bit.
You've gone too far, and I hope that you learn that someday. Taking the Baldur's Gate series and creating an expansion that is little more than a pro-refugee, pro-liberal game that is now weaponized by the LGBT is sickening, offensive, and wrong. I'd like to thank Trent Osner and Amber Scott for their roles in adding "Socio-political weapon" to the genre of Baldur's Gate. *sigh*
EDIT: Yes, I am well aware that this post will be removed and I will likely be banned for expressing my opinion and not being a liberal. That is, afterall, how the "tolerant left" operates. Take care, everyone.
man is it 2016 again? i still like how beamdog is still getting the blame for that safana comment when it was a writer that no longer works there that said that.
Perhaps its left hanging for us iOS and Android users to pick up on. We totally missed the fun of 2016...
I guess that since the cats out of the bag again, I might as well add: I was kind of upset when I learned that:
there are no new tomes or manuals in SoD.... total bummer dudes
Otherwise an awesome game.
The whole NPC drama kind of went over ny head - cause I always play solo and dont talk to NPC unless its quest related. I dont think beamdog has og had any special agenda - besides making money.
Trying to see what it was all about I spent 5 minuttes trying to get the NPC to say something offensive - you really have to look hard for it to appear. So I think the whole deal is significantly toned down in the new patches - try it for your selves.
But inthe end of day, the way I see it: there is new content - huzzah!! pieces of it isnt to your liking? Thankfully we have an ever vigilant and productive modding community that can alter your game any way you fancy.
So there is an NPC you dont like -> Mod it. So there are no
tomes/manuals
-> mod it. Left wing conspiracy - mod it Lack of left wing conspiracy - mod it Anything else - mod it.
I dont need everything to suit me, but most have to and most do in SoD. The things I miss, mods will take care off. So here is hoping Beamdog will make more for me to buy - come get my money
I don't see why it's so important to dig up a thread that's been dead for 2 years. It's not like every side of this debate hasn't been discussed a hundred times already. I've lost count of the number of "SoD controversy" threads, and they never accomplish anything but make people angry at each other.
I mean, the first few threads, way back in the day, had some substantive discussion in them. I think they were worth having. But in all the other, later threads, it's just people saying the exact same things over and over and over again. How many times do we have to have the same argument when we already know it's not going to go anywhere? I have my own opinions about the controversy, but honestly, after so much time, it's just irritating and boring at this point.
We already know this thread has no future.
We already know there's nothing new to say anymore.
We already know what each side believes.
We already know this subject makes people angry at each other.
It's been 2 years. Let's just let it die and move on with our lives.
EDIT: Yes, I am well aware that this post will be removed and I will likely be banned for expressing my opinion and not being a liberal. That is, afterall, how the "tolerant left" operates. Take care, everyone.
No, this won't be removed, and you won't be banned for it. The post doesn't break any rules.
EDIT: Yes, I am well aware that this post will be removed and I will likely be banned for expressing my opinion and not being a liberal. That is, afterall, how the "tolerant left" operates. Take care, everyone.
No, this won't be removed, and you won't be banned for it. The post doesn't break any rules.
Good decision. Although I would leave it for another reason altogether. It should stand so people can understand the mentality behind 'the controversy' Sometimes people deserve to be given enough rope to hang themselves . . .
Completely rational reaction to a game where one minor character mentions they are trans if you decide to ask a series of optional questions. Sane. Balanced. Reasonable. Well done!
decent review. kinda sad how bad of a player he is (i almost can't look at it) but it's a fair representation of how probably a majority of people play.
also: "i assume imoen training to become a mage is a big deal" ...massive deal. much deal. 1x magic missile
Comments
I would like to add some things myself:
- The game was apparently released while it was still riddled with bugs, even game-breaking ones. That's a big no-no for me, and I'm not going to spend my money on that.
- Jaheira has no voiced lines, and since she is one of my favourite characters, I'm really disappointed in this. Also the fact that Amber Scott apparently called her a 'nagging wife' felt a bit like a punch in the gut for me. Did she even play the game herself?
- Safana's character got rewritten because apparently she can't have her own personality which was deemed 'sexist' by a team which contains people who have worked on the BG series before. Why they now suddenly go out of their way to call BG 'sexist' while that really isn't the case eludes me fully.
- Poor portrayal of what could potentially be an interesting transgender character
- Poor handling of the team on the backlash (Amber Scott's reply and Trent's own comments can be called amateuristic, to say the least)
- Why did Minsc have to have a line referring to the GamerGate community? That's just throwing oil on the fire. Minsc is a popular character, however that doesn't mean he's gotta be abused for it.
- As Rody pointed out, apparently the game is very linear and you can't revisit locations. This really breaks immersion for me. I loved travelling all over the map in the two BG games, especially BG 1
- I remember there being several issues with the enhanced editions of the game when they were released too, hence I'm holding off for a while until everything's fixed and patched in this expansion
- I've heard the villain of this game is a Mary Sue. I'm not certain whether this is true, but I'll add it nonetheless
- Apparently the writing also isn't up to expectations, according to some. But that's something I'll have to see for myself, I guess.
So yeah, lots of things which are really putting me in doubt when it comes to buying this expansion. Usually I'm not THAT critical when it comes to games, but I'm making an exception for the Baldur's Gate series since they have always held a special place in my heart. I think I'm not the only one. The BG series are something you handle with care, and the devs should've been more aware of that. Releasing something riddled with glitches and bugs hence leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth. Never underestimate the value of Q&A, guys.
I find a number of the characters to be offensive, and the belief of Beamdog that all Baldur's Gate games prior to Siege of Dragonspear are sexist to be absolutely ridiculous. Stop applying California/Berkeley level left-wing extremist views of today to a medieval fantasy GAME. As if that weren't enough, inviting some of the original voice actors back only to have them reference real-world politics is revolting.
Beamdog: I've purchased every Enhanced Edition that you made. I was here on the forums while Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition was a ways off from being released. I've purchased your games for my friends, and while I did not enjoy or heavily use any of the new content, I enjoyed the Enhanced Editions quite a bit.
You've gone too far, and I hope that you learn that someday. Taking the Baldur's Gate series and creating an expansion that is little more than a pro-refugee, pro-liberal game that is now weaponized by the LGBT is sickening, offensive, and wrong. I'd like to thank Trent Osner and Amber Scott for their roles in adding "Socio-political weapon" to the genre of Baldur's Gate. *sigh*
EDIT: Yes, I am well aware that this post will be removed and I will likely be banned for expressing my opinion and not being a liberal. That is, afterall, how the "tolerant left" operates. Take care, everyone.
Played it and loved it like 2 years ago mate.
I guess that since the cats out of the bag again, I might as well add: I was kind of upset when I learned that:
The whole NPC drama kind of went over ny head - cause I always play solo and dont talk to NPC unless its quest related. I dont think beamdog has og had any special agenda - besides making money.
Trying to see what it was all about I spent 5 minuttes trying to get the NPC to say something offensive - you really have to look hard for it to appear. So I think the whole deal is significantly toned down in the new patches - try it for your selves.
But inthe end of day, the way I see it:
there is new content - huzzah!!
pieces of it isnt to your liking?
Thankfully we have an ever vigilant and productive modding community that can alter your game any way you fancy.
So there is an NPC you dont like -> Mod it. So there are no
Left wing conspiracy - mod it
Lack of left wing conspiracy - mod it
Anything else - mod it.
I dont need everything to suit me, but most have to and most do in SoD. The things I miss, mods will take care off. So here is hoping Beamdog will make more for me to buy - come get my money
I mean, the first few threads, way back in the day, had some substantive discussion in them. I think they were worth having. But in all the other, later threads, it's just people saying the exact same things over and over and over again. How many times do we have to have the same argument when we already know it's not going to go anywhere? I have my own opinions about the controversy, but honestly, after so much time, it's just irritating and boring at this point.
We already know this thread has no future.
We already know there's nothing new to say anymore.
We already know what each side believes.
We already know this subject makes people angry at each other.
It's been 2 years. Let's just let it die and move on with our lives.
Completely rational reaction to a game where one minor character mentions they are trans if you decide to ask a series of optional questions. Sane. Balanced. Reasonable. Well done!
also: "i assume imoen training to become a mage is a big deal" ...massive deal. much deal. 1x magic missile