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Theism - The feel in your head

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  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 9,556
    edited December 2018
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

    When you understand there was a pre-jewish Canaanite Pantheon many things in the Old Testament become suddenly clearer.

    Post edited by mlnevese on
    FinneousPJ
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    Yup. But this is deeply distasteful to a fairly large number of Christians- the idea that the God of the Bible came out of other faiths, along with the idea that the God of the Bible may have come from some other faith. Because, to them, this makes them seem "wrong". How, I have no idea, but there you go.

    mlneveseFinneousPJ
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,433
    If you believe in a unique Christian God, with no connection with other faiths, I'm not quite sure how you reconcile that with worshiping on Sun-day ...

    FinneousPJ
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,161
    It gets even more interesting of how apparently some dude's birthday was cleverly switched from September all the way to December's winter solstice. Reason being the latter polytheistic celebration had more PR potential for the church.

    FinneousPJThacoBell
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    LadyRhian said:

    Yup. But this is deeply distasteful to a fairly large number of Christians- the idea that the God of the Bible came out of other faiths, along with the idea that the God of the Bible may have come from some other faith. Because, to them, this makes them seem "wrong". How, I have no idea, but there you go.

    The weird thing is you only have to read the bible! I guess they don't.

    It gets even more interesting of how apparently some dude's birthday was cleverly switched from September all the way to December's winter solstice. Reason being the latter polytheistic celebration had more PR potential for the church.

    In many European languages we somehow managed to preserve the word Jul, I guess in German as well.

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,161
    edited December 2018

    In many European languages we somehow managed to preserve the word Jul, I guess in German as well.

    In all Germanic languages, to be more precise. Jul, Jül, Yule, Jól, Joel, Jõulud are all words of pre-Christian influence. Needless to say it doesn't stop there. Slavic polytheism has its own midwinter celebration as well: Koliada, Karačun, Kračun, Korochun and Crăciun being some words used for it.

    FinneousPJmlnevese
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    As an aside the winter solstice this year will be on Sat 22nd.

  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 5,186
    LadyRhian said:

    And the "Let us create man in our image", which implies more than one deity Plus, my knowledge that God used to have a wife name Asherah, and the Bible mentions"Asherah Poles"...

    Fundamentalists conveniently write this one off as the only time in the entire Old Testament that the Trinity is implied. God was talking to himself in other words...

    mlneveseFinneousPJ
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,846
    I'm guessing that the "our" word is akin to the royal "we" occasionally used by kings and queens. Higher figures in various languages have used plural forms to describe themselves.

    FinneousPJArtonaThacoBell
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    edited December 2018
  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 881
    I always figured it was God talking to his angels.

    FinneousPJ
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,739
    edited December 2018
    Its almost as if a unversal cretor being has influence in more than one culture.

    @LadyRhian Which Bible are you reading? I don't a wife of God being mentioned anywhere.

    *EDIT*

    I don't a wife? I swear, my ability to type is getting worse and worse.

    Post edited by ThacoBell on
    FinneousPJBalrog99Kamigoroshi
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,161
    ThacoBell said:

    Its almost as if a unversal cretor being has influence in more than one culture.

    @LadyRhian Which Bible are you reading? I don't a wife of God being mentioned anywhere.

    *EDIT*

    I don't a wife? I swear, my ability to type is getting worse and worse.

    Don't worry, my reading skills are also getting rusty. What with me reading your post about some universal cretin and automatically thinking of Noober.

    *sigh* I'm getting old...

    FinneousPJThacoBell
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    ThacoBell said:

    Its almost as if a unversal cretor being has influence in more than one culture.

    @LadyRhian Which Bible are you reading? I don't a wife of God being mentioned anywhere.

    *EDIT*

    I don't a wife? I swear, my ability to type is getting worse and worse.

    Who is Asherah? Or, perhaps, what is asherah?1 The Hebrew means “happy” or “upright” and some suggest “(sacred) place.” The term appears 40 times in the Hebrew Bible, usually in conjunction with the definite article “the.” The definite article in Hebrew is similar to English in that personal names do not take an article. For example, I am Ellen, not the Ellen. Thus it is clear that when the definite article is present that it is not a personal name, but this does not eliminate the possibility of it being a category of being (i.e., a type of goddess). There are only eight cases where the term appears without an article or a suffix—suffixes in Hebrew can be used to express possession, e.g., “his,” “their,” etc. Interestingly, the plural of the term, asherim, occurs in both masculine and feminine forms.
    This diversity of grammar leads to the two questions at the beginning of this article: Who is Asherah? What is asherah? The reference may be to a particular goddess, a class of goddess or a cult symbol used to represent the goddess. It is sometimes difficult to distinguish what meaning is intended (cf. Judges 3:7).

    This goddess is known from several other Ancient Near Eastern cultures.2 Sometimes she is known as “Lady Asherah of the Sea” but could be taken as “She who walks on the sea.” As Athirat, a cognate name for Asherah, she is mother of 70 children (this relates to the Jewish idea of the 70 guardian angels of the nations). Arguments have been made that Asherah is a figure in Egyptian, Hittite, Philistine and Arabic texts. Egyptian representations of “Qudshu” (potentially the Egyptian name for Asherah) show her naked with snakes and flowers, sometimes standing on a lion. Whether this should be interpreted as Asherah is contested and thus should be viewed with caution. Another suggestion is Asherah is also the Hittite goddess Asertu, who is married to Elkunirsa, the storm god (she is often viewed in connection with the regional storm god).

    As Athirat in Arabian inscriptions there is a possibility that she is seen as a sun goddess (this is perhaps a connection in Ugaritic literature as well). In Phoenician, she is the mother goddess, which is different from Astarte, the fertility goddess; there is some debate regarding a confusion of the two relating to 1 Kings 18:19. In Akkadian, she might be Asratum, the consort of Amurru (chief deity of early Babylon). The connection is made because the Akkadian kingship (early 14th century B.C.E.) takes the title “servant of Asherah.”
    As the point where three of the world’s major religions converge, Israel’s history is one of the richest and most complex in the world. Sift through the archaeology and history of this ancient land in the free eBook Israel: An Archaeological Journey, and get a view of these significant Biblical sites through an archaeologist’s lens.
    The Ugaritic texts provide the most insight into the goddess. Ras Shamra (located on the Syrian coast) texts, discovered in 1929, portray her as Athirat, the wife of El. Their sexual encounter produces dusk (Shalim) and dawn (Shahar), among others. Her relationship with Baal is complicated, and it is suggested that Baal has killed large numbers of her children.3 In these texts, she intercedes with El to get Baal a palace, after Anat’s (his “sister” and her “daughter”) request is refused. She supplies a son to reign after Baal descends into the netherworld. The relationship is further complicated by debates as to whether she is the mother of Baal or his consort or both. The idea of her being a consort comes from later Phoenician sources, where scholars have associated Asherah with Tinnit. Yet, the connections are tentative, and many scholars question the association. A hypothesis also suggests that Baal usurped El’s position and also took his consort, Asherah, which would make the relationship very oedipal.

    Asherah or asherim refer to more than just the person of the deity. These terms are often, especially in the Biblical texts, used for consecrated poles. These poles represent living trees, with which the goddess is associated. Some scholars believe that asherim were not poles, but living trees (like the one depicted on the Tanaach Cult Stand). The poles were either carved to look like trees or to resemble the goddess (this could also be reflected in the numerous pillar figurines found throughout Israel). Remains of these poles are determined by postholes and rotted timber, which resulted in differently hued soil. There is great debate as to whether the cult symbol lost its ties to Asherah (and became a religious symbol on its own without the worshippers knowing anything about the goddess who originated it) or is seen as a representation of Asherah herself (similar to the way the cross is a representation of Jesus to Christians).
    The relationship between Asherah and Israel is a complicated one.4 Does the text refer to the goddess or her symbol?5 Jeroboam and Rehoboam fostered Asherah worship (1 Kings 14:15, 23). Worship of Asherah was highly encouraged by Jezebel, with the presence of 400 prophets who held a place in the court of her husband King Ahab (1 Kings 18:19). Worship of Asherah is given as a reason for deportation (2 Kings 17:10,16). Attempts to eradicate the worship were made by Asa, Josiah, Jehoshaphat, Hezekiah and Gideon (Exodus 34:13-14; Deuteronomy 7:5; Judges 6:25-30; 1 Kings 15:13/2 Chronicles 15:16; 2 Kings 23:4,7/2 Chronicles 34:3,7; 2 Kings 21:7/2 Chronicles 33:3,19; 2 Chronicles 19:3; 2 Kings 18:4). However, devotion to the cult symbol remained (Isaiah 27:9; Jeremiah 17:1; Micah 5:14). It is particularly interesting that objections to Asherah are found mostly in Deuteronomistic literature, rather than in the prophets. In both cases, the authors are much more concerned about the worship of Baal rather than Asherah.

    image
    This inscription found on a pithos at Kuntillet ‘Ajrud (similar to an inscription found at Khirbet el-Qom) refers to “Yahweh and his Asherah.” This has led some scholars to believe that in popular religion Asherah was understood to be the wife of Yahweh, much the same as she under her cognate Athirat was considered to be the wife of El. Photo: Courtesy Dr. Ze’ev Meshel and Avraham Hai/Tel Aviv University Institute of Archaeology.

    Grond0mlnevese
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,739
    @LadyRhian So, the concept of the goddess comes from OTHER cultures and religions. The context of the biblical text is that Asherah was either a foreign goddess or a cult. I don't see how this means the Chrisitan God has/had a wife.

  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    The Christian God is Yahweh. Yahweh and his Asherah, like it says in the inscription...

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,739
    An inscription that has nothing to do with the Bible. Asherah was a deity from another religion. You may as well say that Bastet was Shiva's wife.

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,161
    With the difference that the Abrahamic god is also from another religion. And that Asherah was of the same pantheon as said pre-God god. Gotta love that editing magic.

  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    edited December 2018
    Pretty much. And how can Yahweh not be God when he is referred to as God in the Bible? God also absorbed El into himself, with terms like "El Shaddai" Meaning, literally, "God of the Breasts" or "God of comfort" (as the breast comforts an infant).

    Incidentally, Jews refer to God not by his name, but a word which means "The name". Ha-shem, or Hashem.
    Yahweh and Jehovah are both based around the tetragrammeton YHVH of JHVH combined with the actual name of God "Adonai" (actually just the vowels).

    So yes, God had a wife. And Adam had 2 according to the Jewish scriptures. One that was created in Genesis 1;2:4 (Male and Female created he them), and the second in Genesis 2 (which contradicts the order in which things were created in Genesis 1). The Genesis 1 wife was Lillith and according to Jewish stories, she refused to be subservient to Adam, as they were equally old and created at the same time, therefore, they were equals. But since she wouldn't obey, she left, or was thrown out of the garden (tales vary), leaving God to have to make another wife from Adam's side, aka, Eve. (and that, only after trying Adam with all the animals in the garden, according to the Bible)

    mlnevese
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,161
    Am I the only one who has troubles figuring out what Eve really was? A clone of Adam? His daughter-wife? Or a female version of himself? The latter possibility is an especially morbid, yet fascinating thought.

  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    edited December 2018
    Well then, ask yourself where the wives of Adam's sons came from. Cain, Abel and Seth. No sisters mentioned, so where did their wives come from? And remember, again, according to the Bible, they are the only people on earth...

    No joke, one Christian told me they got it on with their sisters but it wasn't a sin because God hadn't declared it one yet. Ewww. Incest!

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,161
    The incest part isn't actually that disturbing. But impregnating yourself? Yikes!

  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,069
    @LadyRhian - I don't think there is said in Bible that God did not create any more humans after Adam and Eve. ;)

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    Well, this thread took a strange turn. "What Eve really was?" Isn't the question, "Was Eve really?"

    ArtonaKamigoroshimlnevese
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,161
    edited December 2018

    Isn't the question, "Was Eve really?"

    That's one of those questions only the book authors can really answer.

    What we can do, however, is to research our bodies for clues of our past. This video on this topic here is rather fascinating:

  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    Artona said:

    @LadyRhian - I don't think there is said in Bible that God did not create any more humans after Adam and Eve. ;)

    According to Christians I've talked to, he didn't. We are all descended from Adam and Eve. Thus, the questions...

  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,069
    According to Christians I've talked to, he didn't. We are all descended from Adam and Eve. Thus, the questions...


    I'm sure those Christians wouldn't also agree with statement, that God had a wife, so there you go. ;)
    But really, I encountered two explanations - one is that first human were more perfect than we are and incest wouldn't result in any deformation of children and wasn't "wrong". It started being wrong when humans degenerated due to sin - hence, among other things, shorter livespan (after all Adam was 930 years old when he died). Second one says that God created other people, and son's of Adam taken their daughter as wives. So we are descended from A & E, but not only from them.
    This is, obviously, if we agree that we believe in that sort of things. :)

  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,069
    Fair enough. Me neither.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,739
    @LadyRhian Um no. None of what you mention of God havinga wife, or Adam having 2 is anywhere in the Bible. You are confusing multiple different religions. There is a very large difference between Middle Eastern polytheism and Chrisitan canon.

This discussion has been closed.