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Is Sandrah Saga worth it?

2

Comments

  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 477
    Ardanis said:

    I can only judge by those very same snippets. I think people are expecting and demanding too much from a damn mod, and those lines aren't even that much different from vanilla BGs.

    I would argue about the last statement. Even vanilla BG1 (anything later is so above it can not be compared at all) had banters incomparable by quality to cited by any parameter from grammar to content.

    And though I agree - a mod is a mod, don't like it - do not install it, but the installation is not a simple process, so, opinions are important here. Even harsh one (which still attract attention, btw). Comparisons (and dialogs/banters examples) are especially useful, so you know what to expect, who to expect.

    Isewein
  • BrokenkatanaBrokenkatana Member Posts: 19
    @Arthas
    I don't know if I'd call his stance neutral, since he was posting online two days ago saying "Beamdogs are selling air" and calling them a "crook business". While suggesting "People are really stupid supporting them". Well... maybe chaotic neutral?

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 2,969
    I remember playing Tortured Souls many years ago and having lots and lots of fun. It added new content without intruding too much with the original story. Sure they do take you to kara tur, but I dont remember is taking hours and hours to complete that quest and the unarmored combat was really cool. Also, I remember that the new Irenicus' lines were well written. Also, the new Npc was balanced s2

    StummvonBordwehr
  • ArdanisArdanis Member, Developer Posts: 1,440
    Arthas said:

    Did you like TS?

    You could tell at a glance it was a mod. A pretty good one, though, if a bit imbalanced, compared to other big mods of the old (TDD, SoS, CtB). The only big one I played more than once, which says something.
    Mirandel said:

    Even vanilla BG1 (anything later is so above it can not be compared at all) had banters incomparable by quality to cited by any parameter from grammar to content.

    You sure it's not just nostalgia talking? Better - yeah, but incomparable...

  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 477
    Ardanis said:


    Mirandel said:

    Even vanilla BG1 (anything later is so above it can not be compared at all) had banters incomparable by quality to cited by any parameter from grammar to content.

    You sure it's not just nostalgia talking? Better - yeah, but incomparable...
    Sure. Objectively better: grammar-wise, subject-wise, length-wise, relativeness-to-the-game-wise. Incomparably. I do not say it was good (!) but better than that. Guess, even when a professional is bad at something, he is still better than bad amateur - at least he knows how to use technical aspects of the trade.

    ThacoBell
  • ArdanisArdanis Member, Developer Posts: 1,440


    The Sandrah dialogue is barf-worthy for how she puts words in the mouths of other modders that always inevitably end with some variation of "well, I grudgingly allow that you are the coolest chick in Faerun." The license Roxanne takes with others' creations is ironic considering she objected to my mod that gives the player an option to edit the stats of NPCs, Level1NPCs-style. She claimed I was attacking her creative control over her characters by giving players the option to modify them. :confused:

    My bad, never mind then :)

  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,011
    edited January 8

    The license Roxanne takes with others' creations is ironic considering she objected to my mod that gives the player an option to edit the stats of NPCs, Level1NPCs-style. She claimed I was attacking her creative control over her characters by giving players the option to modify them.

    LOL
    There's not much more to say to that. Considering the "crossmod" she wrote for my Ajantis (BGII!) - after spening great care to design his romance as a thin line between "he is devoted to his duties and would not look at a woman twice" and "but the Bhaalspawn PC is too impressive not to be noticed" she made him happily falling for her Mary Sue NPC up to the point where he is content with a threesome kind of thing. So, "barf" puts it nicely. And I just learned it's not removed but still publicly available, if one knows where to look. :|
    But yeah, making it possible to change STATS is so much attacking the creative control of an NPC - how could you, @subtledoctor.

    StummvonBordwehrThacoBellbrunardoIsewein
  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 2,806
    edited January 8
    It's very clear that Roxanne knows very little of the NPCs with which she writes crossmod for. Dialogues with Sirene suggest she has Abyssal heritage when it's mentioned multiple times in her friendship that it's Infernal. Drake's tone is horribly out of character and in no way shows the jaded cynic he's supposed to appear as. Isra uses 'thee' and 'thou' (incorrectly, I might add) and ends up soundling more like Saerileth than Isra, even though one can see she clearly does not do so within reading the first two minutes of her dialogue. The list goes on... and on... and on.

    Thank goodness she hasn't touched Aura... given her orientation, I am horrified at imagining the sort of bilge that would result from crossmod being attempted there.

    ThacoBell
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 1,454
    edited January 8
    the thee and thuo thing should not even happen if she read imoen's banter with elminster in bg 1 npc project :p.

    even touching isra in general with out permission should be a criminal offense in the modding community, as she is one of the best...yes i'm kinda a fanboy.

  • theacefestheacefes Member Posts: 81
    edited January 8
    I'm fine with crossmod for my flagship mod...I encourage it even.


    (100% aware this doesn't contribute to the conversation. Play ShadowHand instead if you want a big mod. Hell, finish it for me.)

    Artona
  • rockyracoonrockyracoon Member Posts: 2
    Hey, i just wanted to thank everyone for your replies, i really wasn't expecting such feedback!

    After reading all the stuff concerning Roxanne... just... wow. I was aware of some of the drama but i never imagined it was this big. It reminds me of that classic infamous fan fic of Harry Potter which introduced a new character who was a sexy super powerfull emo vampire who would have sex with just about everyone in the school. It was so bad and cringe inducing that it achieved legendary status.

    I think i will stay as far away from the mod as possible, i cannot bring myself to endure such bad writing...UNLESS there is any benefit in having the mod installed without using Sandrah or doing any of his quests, like the sort of big mod "merge" @Mirandel mentioned.

    I feel like this could have been THE MOD that set the bar for everything else. The project itself has an incredible potential, but needs a HEAVY rework in the writing departament.

    ThacoBellbrunardo
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,556
    Haha that's surprisingly apt. "Sandrah Saga, the 'My Immortal' of Baldur's Gate modding!" I'm kinda disappointed in myself for not thinking of it myself.

    rockyracoonMirandel
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 864
    In all seriousness, if you truly want to experience Baldur's Gate masochism none of the mods mentioned in this thread will do. They're too good (or not bad enough, if you're feeling cynical). No what you want is try the Planar Sphere mod. When you'll finally find yourself face to face with Melanthium, one of the most bullshit characters ever made for a video game, you'll reach enlightenment.

    Mirandel
  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 2,806
    Oh that mod is hilarious. Actually when Roxanne converted the mod to EE she completely removed the main quest with no option to add it back in. She claims it’s supposedly because it was over the top but the real reason is obvious.
    The fact that the big bad of the mod butchers a bunch of FR characters including Elminster and Khelben and steals Mystra’s divinity completely spits upon Sandrah Saga’s ‘lore’ and we can’t have that

    She also removed the Scroll of Kaza which lets the user turn into a Lich, which was one of the more unique things the mod had. Thanks, Roxanne.

    KuronaMirandelbrunardoThacoBell
  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 769
    edited January 8
    Kurona said:

    In all seriousness, if you truly want to experience Baldur's Gate masochism none of the mods mentioned in this thread will do. They're too good (or not bad enough, if you're feeling cynical). No what you want is try the Planar Sphere mod. When you'll finally find yourself face to face with Melanthium, one of the most bullshit characters ever made for a video game, you'll reach enlightenment.

    Haha. That was on my long modlist after going through the BWP and pulling a list of mods that sound interesting. Because of that there's about half a dozen small obscure mods I'll be using when I get to BG2EE in my current run.

    Anyways, it got taken off after reading up on the mod. My notes in my spreadsheet say "Skipping, because fuck that noise."

    The next mod was to be Spellhold Gauntlet. My notes on skipping are "The fuck was I thinking?"

    Those are the only two that have such colorful notes, however. After those two, was to be Tales of the Deep Garden, and my note is "Have to give the creator respect for wanting more RP, but eh, I really don't want to go so far out".

  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 864
    @AionZ Woah I didn't know that. Regardless of the mod's quality this is in really poor taste. I mean, what if someone released a gutted version of her mod, only without Sandrah herself? I can bet she would be outraged.

  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,011
    @Kurona Several of her EET-versions of the mods she put up on her site have changes in them. That's what makes it so difficult to use her updates for the official releases.

    Also, I am not sure it's known that her "SoD Banter Restoration" mod introduces a line in the SoD end cutscene stating it was Mae'Var doing the kidnapping. This is added content, not original game content. Roxanne first added it to her "EET Fixpack" [sic!] she took down again after others and I intervened that it doesn't incluse fixes but tweaks. Now she smuggled it into a tweak mod that really doesn't have to do anything with it.

    KuronaMirandelbrunardoThacoBell
  • ArthasArthas Member Posts: 690
    edited January 8

    Kurona said:

    In all seriousness, if you truly want to experience Baldur's Gate masochism none of the mods mentioned in this thread will do. They're too good (or not bad enough, if you're feeling cynical). No what you want is try the Planar Sphere mod. When you'll finally find yourself face to face with Melanthium, one of the most bullshit characters ever made for a video game, you'll reach enlightenment.

    The next mod was to be Spellhold Gauntlet. My notes on skipping are "The fuck was I thinking?"

    Those are the only two that have such colorful notes, however. After those two, was to be Tales of the Deep Garden, and my note is "Have to give the creator respect for wanting more RP, but eh, I really don't want to go so far out".
    To be honest, I liked Spellhold Gauntlet. It makes you skip the boring challenges inside that annoying labirinth. I would use it always, but some npc mods actually include content inside that damn maze (see Yvette) and that means that you are bound to experience that pointless dungeon again and again.

    Mantis37
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,689
    Kurona said:

    Regardless of the mod's quality this is in really poor taste. I mean, what if someone released a gutted version of her mod, only without Sandrah herself? I can bet she would be outraged.

    Ha ha, I thought about doing just that. (The mod's on Github I think, anyone can fork it and mess with it.) Replace Sandrah's sprite with an invisible creature, and replace sll her dialogue with blank lines, so you can still play the mod but she ends up being a weird figment of Charname's imagination, as he goes around mumbling to himself. But I have neither the time nor the meanspiritedness to create such a thing...

    Ludwig_IIbrunardoStummvonBordwehrSumSineRegno
  • southfla79southfla79 Member Posts: 149
    AionZ said:

    Oh that mod is hilarious. Actually when Roxanne converted the mod to EE she completely removed the main quest with no option to add it back in. She claims it’s supposedly because it was over the top but the real reason is obvious.

    The fact that the big bad of the mod butchers a bunch of FR characters including Elminster and Khelben and steals Mystra’s divinity completely spits upon Sandrah Saga’s ‘lore’ and we can’t have that

    She also removed the Scroll of Kaza which lets the user turn into a Lich, which was one of the more unique things the mod had. Thanks, Roxanne.
    What mod is this from? The liche thing?

    brunardo
  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 769

    Kurona said:

    Regardless of the mod's quality this is in really poor taste. I mean, what if someone released a gutted version of her mod, only without Sandrah herself? I can bet she would be outraged.

    Ha ha, I thought about doing just that. (The mod's on Github I think, anyone can fork it and mess with it.) Replace Sandrah's sprite with an invisible creature, and replace sll her dialogue with blank lines, so you can still play the mod but she ends up being a weird figment of Charname's imagination, as he goes around mumbling to himself. But I have neither the time nor the meanspiritedness to create such a thing...
    This does remind me of someone posting the idea once that it cold be RP'ed that the Bhaalspawn had gone through a mental breakdown, and there was no Imoen in BG2.
    Arthas said:

    Kurona said:

    In all seriousness, if you truly want to experience Baldur's Gate masochism none of the mods mentioned in this thread will do. They're too good (or not bad enough, if you're feeling cynical). No what you want is try the Planar Sphere mod. When you'll finally find yourself face to face with Melanthium, one of the most bullshit characters ever made for a video game, you'll reach enlightenment.

    The next mod was to be Spellhold Gauntlet. My notes on skipping are "The fuck was I thinking?"

    Those are the only two that have such colorful notes, however. After those two, was to be Tales of the Deep Garden, and my note is "Have to give the creator respect for wanting more RP, but eh, I really don't want to go so far out".
    To be honest, I liked Spellhold Gauntlet. It makes you skip the boring challenges inside that annoying labirinth. I would use it always, but some npc mods actually include content inside that damn maze (see Yvette) and that means that you are bound to experience that pointless dungeon again and again.
    Well, now its partly because I intend on taking Yvette. Didn't know about needing the regular for Yvette.

    But mainly I was looking to beef up the general challenge. Several mods will do that, and one is going to add to the combat stats of ALL critters.

    After looking at what was in the gauntlet, I was like "nah, this is overkill" when combined with everything else.

    I don't mind going through normal Spellhold dungeon. I also don't mind going through Chateau Irenicus repeatedly.

  • brunardobrunardo Member Posts: 508
    Thats not a bad idea @subtledoctor if you could change the sprite/dialog and then it may be playable...also guessing it would not be a good idea to combine saerilith mod & sandra on the same playthrough...barf city?

  • ArdanisArdanis Member, Developer Posts: 1,440
    Someone did make Improved Anvil Lite back in the day, so...

    That said, while Sikret had earned the scorn he had received, by virtue of being a combative authoritarian jerk, I haven't seen a trace of such in Roxanne, who's been mostly proactive and helpful. Even if you take into account the seeming lack of adherence to unspoken rules of ethics within the scene. To say I'm deeply disappointed by the reaction of community I've been part of for over a decade is an understatement. I don't like the word "toxic" because it's been so stained with the smear of political correctness, but otherwise its new meaning is aptly fitting.

    Also what's the problem with Saerileth? If I had to pick an NPC mod for a new BG playthrough (a highly unlikely thing, but who knows), I'd pick her in favor of any other which with scientific precision tries to be respective of the game, of the other mods, of FR lore blah blah blah.

  • UlbUlb Member Posts: 248
    Ardanis said:

    Even if you take into account the seeming lack of adherence to unspoken rules of ethics within the scene. To say I'm deeply disappointed by the reaction of community I've been part of for over a decade is an understatement. I don't like the word "toxic" because it's been so stained with the smear of political correctness, but otherwise its new meaning is aptly fitting.

    I admit reading this thread I also felt a bit bad for Roxanne (I'd be willing to bet she's still reading here on the forums). I don't think there is any malice or ill will behind her actions and every time I've communicated with her in the past she has been very helpful and friendly.
    On the other hand, I totally get why people like Jastey are upset. She's put great effort into her mods and seeing them hastily and with far less care or understanding beeing (ab)used to "fatten up" someone elses mod in some frankensteinish manner is bound to cause some ire.

    In the end Roxanne has opened herself up to this sort of direct criticism by doing what she did and as long as things don't tilt towards pure hate, I think threads like this one are healthy for the community, as an outlet and as a form of community expression.
    Ardanis said:


    Also what's the problem with Saerileth? If I had to pick an NPC mod for a new BG playthrough (a highly unlikely thing, but who knows), I'd pick her in favor of any other which with scientific precision tries to be respective of the game, of the other mods, of FR lore blah blah blah.

    I honestly think that Saerileth would be a lot better received if it wasn't for the terrible, terrible English VO (and of course the whole 14 year old thing.)

    The mod has (or had) a top notch German VO with a sweet and fitting voice and I remember quite enjoying it when I played it back in the day. Of course I was 16 or 17 back then so her age was a none issue.

    Using it on your very first play-through would of course ruin the game. Using it for a Paladin play-through after you've just led your sadistic, murdering assassine Bhaalspawn to godhood, it's a decent mod.

    (Side note on the creepy factor: Romancing Aerie, an abused ex-slave, who is clearly not a mentally fully formed adult is also creepy..)

    StummvonBordwehrIsewein
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,689
    edited January 9
    Ardanis said:

    while Sikret had earned the scorn he had received, by virtue of being a combative authoritarian jerk, I haven't seen a trace of such in Roxanne, who's been mostly proactive and helpful. Even if you take into account the seeming lack of adherence to unspoken rules of ethics within the scene. To say I'm deeply disappointed by the reaction of community I've been part of for over a decade is an understatement. I don't like the word "toxic" because it's been so stained with the smear of political correctness, but otherwise its new meaning is aptly fitting.

    Honestly I have to disagree. People (like me) have chastised her for her seeming double-standard about how modders should work together, but that amounts to criticism, which I think is fair game. People have also poked fun of the discovered predilection for having large conversations with multiple alts, but honestly she brings that on herself by having large conversations with multiple alts. I haven't seen much in the way of actual toxic behavior. I think her decision to sequester herself from the big modding sites was an overreaction and kind of silly. I and many others have said she would be welcome to rejoin the community. She wasn't banned or anything.

    (Note my own reaction to her mods dialogue logically suggested that it is superior to the Game of Thrones... if that's toxic I don't know how to be non-toxic :lol: )
    Ardanis said:

    Also what's the problem with Saerileth? If I had to pick an NPC mod for a new BG playthrough (a highly unlikely thing, but who knows), I'd pick her in favor of any other which with scientific precision tries to be respective of the game, of the other mods, of FR lore blah blah blah.

    Yeah Saerileth almost always finds a place in my install order. (Of course I have never "romanced" her but then I've never engaged in any in-game romance with any NPC, so I can't really speak to that aspect of the mod.)

  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 477
    Ardanis said:


    Also what's the problem with Saerileth? If I had to pick an NPC mod for a new BG playthrough (a highly unlikely thing, but who knows), I'd pick her in favor of any other which with scientific precision tries to be respective of the game, of the other mods, of FR lore blah blah blah.

    Ulb said:


    I honestly think that Saerileth would be a lot better received if it wasn't for the terrible, terrible English VO (and of course the whole 14 year old thing.)
    ...
    Using it on your very first play-through would of course ruin the game. Using it for a Paladin play-through after you've just led your sadistic, murdering assassine Bhaalspawn to godhood, it's a decent mod.


    Yeah Saerileth almost always finds a place in my install order. (Of course I have never "romanced" her but then I've never engaged in any in-game romance with any NPC, so I can't really speak to that aspect of the mod.)

    Today I learned a lot about acquainted taste...

    ThacoBell
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 864
    Ulb said:

    (Side note on the creepy factor: Romancing Aerie, an abused ex-slave, who is clearly not a mentally fully formed adult is also creepy..)

    The creepiest BG romance will always be Viconia. I know I said this several times but I don't care, it needs repeating! The world must be made aware of how creepy this romance is!

    (insert more !)

    ThacoBell
  • RVNSRVNS Member Posts: 279
    I feel like either way the discussion has mostly stepped away for the original post . This has become a bashing of the modder which whether, justified or not, is certainly not the original question asked( I have been guilty of it as well) . To offer feedback is one thing and being critical of the mod is certainly in line since the post was asking for opinions .

    However, it has certainly devolved from the original question asked, becoming more about Roxanne and less about the mod in question. I take there is more than enough here for the OP to form their thoughts without us airing dirty laundry everywhere.

    cmorgan
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,689
    Mirandel said:

    Ardanis said:


    Also what's the problem with Saerileth? If I had to pick an NPC mod for a new BG playthrough (a highly unlikely thing, but who knows), I'd pick her in favor of any other which with scientific precision tries to be respective of the game, of the other mods, of FR lore blah blah blah.

    Ulb said:


    I honestly think that Saerileth would be a lot better received if it wasn't for the terrible, terrible English VO (and of course the whole 14 year old thing.)
    ...
    Using it on your very first play-through would of course ruin the game. Using it for a Paladin play-through after you've just led your sadistic, murdering assassine Bhaalspawn to godhood, it's a decent mod.


    Yeah Saerileth almost always finds a place in my install order. (Of course I have never "romanced" her but then I've never engaged in any in-game romance with any NPC, so I can't really speak to that aspect of the mod.)

    Today I learned a lot about acquainted taste...
    You get to go to Sigil!

    Although, now that I think about it, it occurs to me that in my favorite part of the mod, Saerileth is not in your party... so I guess that says something about the character :lol:

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