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Is Sandrah Saga worth it?

13

Comments

  • ArdanisArdanis Member Posts: 1,736
    edited January 2019


    (Note my own reaction to her mods dialogue logically suggested that it is superior to the Game of Thrones... if that's toxic I don't know how to be non-toxic :lol: )

    Wasn't really referring to you. Like I mentioned earlier if your barf issue was due to double standards, then sure :)

    I'm not above poking fun at other people - in fact I often enjoy doing so, - and certainly don't intend to white knight for somebody else. It's just, and this thread is not the only place, that some people really seem to have taken this situation way more seriously than it deserves.
    Mirandel said:


    Today I learned a lot about acquainted taste...

    Keep going, you're on a good track ;)

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,716
    Had a little issue with Roxanne. She added Deities of Faerun to her megamod tool without asking permission to do so.

    Thanks to a very weird bug experimented by one player I've discovered this altered version, otherwise I would probably never know about it.

    Posted on the megamod thread asking the mod to be removed and everything was solved in 10 minutes tops.

    StummvonBordwehrAcifer
  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,183
    edited January 2019
    Raduziel said:

    Had a little issue with Roxanne. She added Deities of Faerun to her megamod tool without asking permission to do so.

    It'd be easier to count the mods she did get consent for. If there even are any, besides her own that is.

    Granted, I didn't have as much of an issue with the idea of her install tool until after she started changing all the mod links to a personal Dropbox hub.

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,519
    i felt very un easy about her being the one to post the first official non beta version of Ascension. i have no idea if she added anything as i have not gone through it yet.

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,716
    AionZ said:

    Raduziel said:

    Had a little issue with Roxanne. She added Deities of Faerun to her megamod tool without asking permission to do so.

    It'd be easier to count the mods she did get consent for. If there even are any, besides her own that is.

    Granted, I didn't have as much of an issue with the idea of her install tool until after she started changing all the mod links to a personal Dropbox hub.
    Honestly, if it wasn't for the bug I wouldn't care. The more people playing DoF, the better.

    The real problem is that as a WIP, I don't think DoF is ready for a megamod tool due to its constants updates (well, when it happened it was constant).

    But yeah, I do understand people who get pissed off, especially those who made NPCs/quests mods.

  • LordSithLordSith Member Posts: 7
    edited March 28
    Hi,
    I will answer shortly because I just spent 450 hours in a full BG-EET game with as main point, Sandrah. (spoiler: i coudln't be short. ... I spent 50 days playing it, so for me it was not "a little thing" in which i devoted not much time. I had a lot to say)

    And if I noticed things which are good, my final answer would be: don't play it if you like BG for what BG is, that is the story of the Child of Bhaal. If you are fine with disgressions and side-stories stories which become the main one and your just being their side-story, then sure go with it: it is HUGE.

    It brings so many mods together and make them feel like one big orld.

    The main and central reason I want to give is: I played a evil assassin and wanted to become a god, because it's more fun, from depart. But i soon felt I wouldn't been able.

    But I couldn't. There is (not sure yet, still discussing with mod author) no option for that. Either I'm a good god, either not a god. I cannot be a evil god.
    I even modded the thing from what I thought was an error in script... and Roxanne said to me it is an obsolete route (where you become a evil god and Mystra, sandrah and Elminster go to fight => i couldn't fight)).

    The fact that I felt forced to play like Sandrah wanted is what nailed the coffin for me. I hated that ending and much of the interactions with Sandrah. And i spent 450 hours trying to find everything i could but my final opinion is clear in this post: not a mod for me. And probably not a mod for anyone playing BG for what BG is about.



    After that main point (which is the strongest now, since I spent the whole day fixing many bugs - not done by Sandrah, I want to give credit where credit is due: compared to other mods, this mod is NOT bugged at all.) there are a lot.

    I'll quote (shortly) 3:
    - overpower. EG Sandrah has3 items with immunity to timestop at some point. EG: at the end of the game, my Sandrah had 150 innate powers per day. EG. at some points, she gained so much power she could heal the whole party at wish without cooldown. THAT IS BORING AS HELL.
    She has a DRAGON SUMMONING from the end of BG1.

    -> + her AI. Her AI overwrites ANYTHING you say. You want to 1vs1 a lich? she will play without your order.
    You want to move between traps but are hurt? her ai makes her come heal you. ... And trigger all the traps on her way. (Remember the temple of amaunator in BG2? you get my point.)

    (+ the AI of the familiars, same deal with "auto-attack" when you must do a 1vs1 mandatory fight )

    - PC and Sandrah's familiar : the wolf and the panter often appear on your character. you need to resort to ctrl+j to progress. Sometimes during a fight, they will appear on your character, you will not see, and you will die not moving, and not understanding why your precious charname remains in the center of the fight altough you urge him to move.

    It's not directly Sandrah, but it's what made me lose my time the most.

    - She is ALWAYS right. You can't end the game without being in agreement. See what I wrote before: I wanted to become a god of murder? the mod decided I couldn't. (And then, since it's probably not possible, and yet I did it, was stuck in cutscene mod without end...)
    That also means SHE KNOWS everything. She knows the plot from day 1. She spoiled BG1 ("you are a child of Bhaal!" when we learn that Sarevok is probably one...) and 2 (from the chapter 1 of BG2 when she says "Irenicus => isn't he an elf? oh maybe they exiled him") or something like that.

    There are 0 npc who disagree with her.

    Even Irenicus in the LONGER ROAD, you know, THE Irenicus, the NPC who is hard as hell to not have betraying you (imo)... is her best friend from banter 2 when he says something like "you never lied to me Sandrah"... NOOOOOOOOO.

    Edwin was in love with her (EDWIN!)
    Viconia was her best friend and lover for sometimes.

    She had 3-4 lovers in team (Sharteel, Branwen, Viconia, Ajanis but i dropped him quickly).
    The only NPc in team who said "shut up" to her is Tenya.

    Well, you get my pointt.

    There are other things:
    -> cheap things
    -> cheats in Sandrah Ai (easy resurrection from day 1, easy heal when charname is in danger, with no importance from distance or whatever)
    -> Mystra is preparing Sandrah to become a god from day one. But who cares? not me. It was obvious since our meeting and since the first day she acquired a random power by changing map.
    -> she acquires innate power /thac0bonus/hp/CON points each time a npc join or leave the team.
    -> she gains XP randomly
    -> she acquires power randomly due to time or map. You can go to a map, and when you enter "Sandrah gains a power".

    Seriously, do not play this if you want to play the Bhaal child story.

    In my previous modded BGEET game, in 2017, I knew it and didn't try the mod (which was, from memory, not yet complete at the time I installed my modded game)

    If you play this, know that you are not the main character. That is essential to enjoy. You are one of Sandrah boy/girlfriend and she takes you with her in HER adventure.

    I played for 450 hours because I like the amount of banters, what was written. But i played it once (and only the "BGEET full experience", which is very good, no question, but not the follow up as god (see what I wrote about being evil and god) nor the "time of trouble revisited" because I don't want a story where Charname is not the main hero) and will never again. That's sad.

    I would have greatly more enjoyed the mod if it was Sandrah joins Charname and not "SANDRAH THE FUTURE GODDESS meddles in charname story and then hijack the team for her needs".



    After i'd like to say something: some people here complain against Roxanne. I don't care for those issues with her.

    I have had her counselling me for more than 1 month. She was always present and helping. I may dislike Sandrah, and I explicitly said many things about what is written here on her forum. Never had she refrained me from speaking, and neither did she stop bringing me help.

    So maybe she did mistakes, or things not "right". I really don't care and I would urge people to stop those little useless ego-fights but since I don't know the whole story, i just stated my opinion about that.

    She helped me a lot, fixed a lot of issue.

    BGEET is a wonderful tool and brings a lot more than just Sandrah saga. So i'd like people to be wise and distinguish between those two things.


    ---
    to conclude: if at the end, i was able to become an evil god like I planned; and fight (and win) against Mystra, Sandrah and Elminster, i would have said the mod is not bad but it has problem.

    But I understand the author wouldn't want to put her creation (which is the very definition of a Mary Sue as already explained in other posts) in a situation where it is killed. I guess that. That's author appeal.
    But that is also why the mod was a disappointment for me.

    I guess that explanation is at the root of ALL my criticism towards the mod, except the familiar bug, which is, from what I understand, not the mod fault but BGEE recent update which destroyed something in relation to pathfinding. Helas, the mod creates the creatures and if you can put the wolf away, the panther is always with you (even ctrl+y do not kill it anymore, and if it is "killed" it reappears on the character it is attached to).

    Edit: sorry for language mistakes, English is not my prime language.

    Post edited by LordSith on
    evildevil97Timbo0o0o0
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,901
    Its just an extended Mary Sue fanfic.

    megamike15
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,519
    and before someone says " isnt that the case for alot of npc mods?'

    most of the good npc mods fit into the setting.


    it's nice having a new punching bag for bad npc mods. saerileth has been beaten to the ground.

    ThacoBell
  • Belegur01Belegur01 Member Posts: 5
    As someone with no particular axe to grind, I'll give my opinion on the Sandrah mods.

    To say Sandrah is a Mary Sue character is to say that the Pope's a Catholic. Charname shouldn't be a supporting character in their own story, but that's what it boils down to , especially when you get to the latter parts. This really should have been a total conversion of the base game that didn't involve the Bhaalspawn saga at all - there's more than enough content for it. And if you think I'm exaggerating the Mary Sue-ness of the character, I'm going to give a spoiler. She manipulates and outwits Ao. Even if you have the most basic knowledge of Forgotten Realms lore, you'd see the ludicrousness of this.

    That said, I don't hate the mod. I think it's great if you're in to the power-gaming mindset, where the PC is the baddest MF in the whole setting - as I tend to be. The EET install tool is also invaluable for those of us who saw the Big World Setup tool as a perfect one-stop installer, and can't get into Project Infinity because it's complicated and not intuitive. If you want to have the largest mega mod install possible, then it's a hell of a lot easier, even though the lack of a level 50 rules pack in EE means you max out your levels before you've seen all the possible content.

    A mod of this size and complexity means the author spent a lot of time on it. I can gloss over minor grammatical errors, because, goodness knows, you see enough of those in the big mods anyway. Unfortunately, with the 6 character hard limit, there is literally no space for any Bioware NPC but Imoen towards the end of TOB if you take all the optional Sandrah mod quests and NPCs. This tends to lower the role-playing value because the new NPCs don't have much content in the latter parts of the game.

    If you don't gravitate towards a mega-mod installation, then I would suggest to look elsewhere, because the Sandrah mod is geared towards that.

    StummvonBordwehrTimbo0o0o0
  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,183
    This mod has a ton of issues that go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay past just being a megamod/Mary Sue character.

    ThacoBell
  • NiziNiziNiziNizi Member Posts: 70
    AionZ wrote: »
    This mod has a ton of issues that go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay past just being a megamod/Mary Sue character.


    In my opinion, it just have to be more polished, some things corrected, improved. Some things removed (not content, just some not really necessary "feautures").

    I'm just about to start my new EET run, including this mod, and I will fill very detailed report to Roxanne in end, with goal on further improving mod. Although I lack time to game at full pace due to work on some speficic modding, I will try my best.

    Can you please state some of these issues?

    As I can see, for whatever reason, people tend to just throw critique, trying only to find bad things. Other mods are perfect maybe? Care to try to look on positive side? As, IMO, indeed there is ton of content of that mod I enjoy to play (and if that end up improved, it would be perfect). I have yet to see another mod which bring and extend game content to such degree.

    Another thing. When reading some posts, person who did not play mod, would clearly conclude that main character is Sandrah, not your game character. Is that really so? Why I never get that feeling instead? I play my game and progress just fine, and don't see problem if I have to complete quests, and additionally play content which one NPC in party brings.

    What is point of modding if we have to see expanding game as bad thing? Polishing/improving things, are completelly different thing, and I agree it have to be done (not saying mod is low quality, just, from my standard of expectation, it can be improved further).

    So, what is really problem to have NPC which have its importance in game also? Not just NPC whose maximum range is to follow you and start few dialoques in game.

    People exaggerate, catching on few things they personally do not like. That is what I truly belive.

    Not pointing now at person I'm quoting (I have no idea of your expirience with this mod), but also I have feeling that some people around did not even play mod, yet they jump into wagon where same mantra is repeated - because they hear it from others who are spreading hatred - and lets be fully direct and go straight to point and source - hatred started by some "big names" - so, lets not have our own opinion.. well.. maybe I'm going to be a little cool if I follow them.
    My advice to such would be to create opinion only on facts, proper arguments and direct personal expirience, not going by line of least resistance. Be it mod, game, or real life, in other instances also.

    I will, at least, give my best to participate and urge on Roxanne on further mod improvements, as I really want to see it shine, because such big mod and expanding game deserve best quality. But I will also additionally spark my motivation out of spite. Because I see unfair propaganda. So, best thing to beat haters is to raise own quality - leaving them without possibility to catch to any arguments. In the end, it benefit everybody.


    About post above this : "even though the lack of a level 50 rules pack in EE means you max out your levels before you've seen all the possible content."
    Maybe I don't understand. Are you referring to additional XP you can get from EET, when many mods are installed, leading to much faster character progress? If you mean that, you have component to reduce XP, because of that reason. If you mean something else please let me know and understand.

  • StummvonBordwehrStummvonBordwehr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 909
    edited July 27
    @NiziNizi
    The problem is that many parts of the Sandrah saga has been put into the mod against the will and wishes of the one who created these parts/mods

    Some of the authors of these parts/mods have explicitly asked not to be a part of the Sandrah saga - without success.

    If the Sandrah saga and its author ever would make amends and get acceptance of the other authors - everything would be alright. There are others mods with dialogue of lesser quality, railroaded or incoherent plot and excessively overpowered loot - and they still have their fans. Count me amongst those.

    I for one love overpowered loot and would absolutely love to play the Sandrah saga - when every contributor to the mod has accepted the changes and handling of their intellectual property in the Sandrah saga. Until then I steer clear and advice everyone else to do the same. Discussing content and quality is not on the agenda.

  • NiziNiziNiziNizi Member Posts: 70
    edited July 28
    Mod is indeed ambitious, as well as providing extremely wide content.

    Can you state more detailed what is so godawful designed, writen, etc.? Godawful is pretty heavy word, so back up it equal fact, if you insist on that.

    +3 long sword at beginning of game? Fact I can't deny. But in a heavily modded game, you have anyway ton of such, even more powerful items (two areas distant). And you also have way harder encounters, which you would hardly beat using vanilla weapons and items, only at your disposal.

    It seems that it boils down to thing some does people, for whatever reasons get crazy when game start to differ from vanilla. There is indeed such players. So fine, if for someone all imporant is to "follow exact rules" than do not install EET, mods, and play vanilla games in 2020.
    Luckily, not everyone thinks so.

    Egotistical, self-centered, self-important creator's ego - this seems as personal insult and offense to someone. What really could provoke someone to step down to using such words?

    As I said directly, it comes from deeper source.

    "shameless theft of other peoples' intellectual property". Now, what this allegedly accusation, have to do with people, and players, asking is PLAYING mod worth it? They have to care for such topics, accusations, and relations between modders?

    Wait really, what some of you guys are trying, at first indirectly, is to force players (who are just interested in gaming) to somehow feel guilty for playing a mod? That is forcing your own interest/hatred on others, which you have no right to do. You can, but why anyone would really care?

    And now, such behaviour lasting some time leads you to feel more relaxed on such propaganda, so you can directly (not indirectly, hypocritically, at first try) try to put pressure on potential players, and spread hatred propaganda?
    Good thing is, it did not required long time to get confession that this injecting of offtopic in thread, is actually based on personal interest, hatred, and following crap started by some "big names". Well exposed.
    "Until then I steer clear and advice everyone else to do the same. Discussing content and quality is not on the agenda.", require nothing more to add.

    I read somewhere one time something like "ohhhhhhh, she deared to give Irenicus a dialoque line including Sandrah". What game would look like if all additional interaction is somehow forbidden? Whats the point of it? From my playing point of view, as long as she improve and expand content, that is only I care. And she does exactly that. If she update some not maintaned mod, fixes it, adapted it to EET, make it usable to players, I see nothing wrong with it, actually opposite.

    If some of people are pretending to be judges and moralists, than I could ask why same people said nothing, way before these allegedly accusations pop up, when clearly unjust, false, never proven, etc., propaganda against author of this mod started (that is another accusation, complete different from this one you try to spread, made exactly to dishonor her - and imagine - it was of course never proven). By turning back on such community (ones which participated and supported that), and by making available most friendly EET installer, and at same time put hard work on expanding and improving game - she did right move! Instead of going down on their level.

    So, to say she have to seek acceptance of some persons.. maybe same persons who participated in starting all unjust crap - it would not be move one person who respect herself would do.

    I did put some time and read these forums where that crap started. It is so clearly that it is mounted hypocritical game against her. If accusations where really true, she would get warned, and afterwards banned. That never happened. Instead of take action dictated by forum rules, people who participated in that crap only put big effort in trying to embarrass and dishonour her, which, btw., what clear goal of all of that from beginning.
    Of course one normal person would just leave - and by creating everything she done afterwards, it just proved her value (opposed to what some smartasses expected). At same time, people who started that crap, ended by schizophrenic and paranoid endless topics accusing each other "you are her". I don't know would I call it funny or poor.
    On top of that, moderators there started banning some guys, who was already members from long time ago, on schizophrenic and paranoid accusation of "being her". Banning people who did not commit breaking of forum rules nor insulted anyone, while at same time moderatos did same, using pretty insulting words. It speaks for itself clearly. These mods, in my eyes, are disgrace and should resign, instead of acting as forum is their own courtyard. And most important - NEVER PROVIDED ANY PROOFS.

    And now, I have to belive such people? And more worse, to belive people who probably even do not know of this, instead they just heard hatred propaganda from "big names" so they continue to spread it further. Making legal thread going offtopic and putting pressure and "requesting" players not to play game and mod, because of their own false beliefs and interest.

    So, finally, now you have story of the other side.

    I indeed disgrace myself by going down on this level of posts, but I do not regret, I'm not doing it because of you actually, I'm doing it for gamers and players. And it is shame this is happening in one of biggest mods thread.


    Now when we finally cleared why offtopic propaganda is involved in one thread about one BG mod:
    First, I would advise last posters to reassess from where your words and propaganda comes. Is it really your belief as witness, or you are spreading propaganda on behalf of someone behind.
    Second, claiming some things as facts to neutral people who is only interested in playing, while providing zero evidence, is dishonorably. And to claim any allegedly facts would ask also to claim responsibility. And why all of that crap would interest one gamer in end?
    Third. As forcing offtopic by blaming mod creator by offtopic facts.... leads to simply conclusion that, if you are so interested in your speech, than make thread exactly about it. Don't spam mod thread.


    When someone are playing moralist, person should be careful not to end exposed as false moralist after all.


    You can post all day technical things related to game and mod, and it would be beneficial, and I hope that modder will use any input, be it positive or negative, to further improve mod.
    But next posts which consist spreading lies, hatreds, involiving "deeper motives behind" which have nothing with game actually, I will report same moment.


    However, I would be happy to go on-topic.

  • SkitiaSkitia Member Posts: 591
    edited July 28
    I'll take this one on to help it go on-topic. Bit of a long answer.

    Is Sandrah Saga worth it?

    The Answer varies, like with any mod. It is, despite it's criticisms and flaws, a passion project. Making a mod by yourself is very difficult. And it should be understood that many players do not check a mod to see if it has anything stolen, but if they can install it without issue and it has what they are looking for in its listed contents. They're looking for something new and fresh above all.

    As a modder, I have downloaded and perused through its files (I have done this for almost every NPC mod I could find.). It's a useful resource to see how some things work, though I'm not fond of the reply style in dialogue, I prefer my ++'s. I would personally play it if I did an EET playthrough, purely for understanding it's relationship to EET and what you could do with it, and if any of my own mods are bugged in an EET playthrough. So if you are a modder, I would say it is worth looking at the files at least for research and understanding. You don't need to play it for that.

    If you care about ethics however, then I would not recommend this mod. As others said, they did use other people's mods without asking.

    This is an odd thing to bring up, in a way, the entire point of a MoD requires resources that you don't really ask to use, and are entirely at the liberty of the game creators. If Beamdog said "No, you can't do this", then I would have to take my mod down. If I took resources from Fire Emblem and Intelligent Systems said no, I'd have to remove every voice asset I used in my mod. So there can be a fair argument that if one is just writing original code/lines for X fan character, such could be okay unless the creator says NO. I wouldn't care if my characters had crossmod written for them without asking. But I would be miffed if my work was re-uploaded and directly used. This is what Sandrah did in some cases. And while she removed some, others persist and that stings. It is completely understandable for someone to refuse to download the mod and ask others to not play it for this reason alone.

    If you like playing big mods, and the above isn't an issue, then you will probably like the Sandrah Saga. It's enormous and allows you to play Baldur's Gate in an entirely different way. That it goes through the entire saga and adds things after it isn't something that is really replicated anywhere else.

    If you are looking for good writing, look elsewhere. I'm going to stress, making a mod is hard, especially alone. You can be good at the design part, the writing part, the programming part, the art, or the audio part, but good luck being good at all of that. Writing isn't the modder's strongsuit. Sandrah is definitely the fitting definition of a Marysue. Hers definitely feels the creation of what a teenager might make. It has about that writing strength. It might sound harsh, but she is basically, from my analysis of the writing, that self-insertion for the teenage girl. The main character in parts, almost worships them, and there isn't much variation in response. I would uneducatedly guess this was a late highschool/early college project, and they started around that age range.

    As for story, maybe? There are interesting story bits and quests. I can see some players enjoying it and others finding it too much. On their sexuality...they get around a bit. Nothing wrong with sleeping around, but it should contribute something interesting to explore in their character. Also, they shouldn't do the Mystra *and* the Elminister angle. One or the other (And they still have other super unique background additions that could be cut out as well). Too many unique snowflake details makes a very poor character.

    My specific advice to them would be to give Sandrah flaws. Make her real. If you are going to give her something like Elminster's daughter, what are the flaws of this? Does she resent him? Idealize him?

    If I were going to do this, I would have them *wrongly* think they are Elminister's daughter, be arrogant about it, almost like an Anomen. Have them discover the truth and have it rip apart their world. <CHARNAME> could tell them they are still a great mage or cleric, or just laugh at them down because hey, they were so arrogant and egotistical, and now they got their comeuppance. But that's my editor's suggestion.

    The character needs less special features so it can focus on its story-beats and play off of them. You don't want too much, this is a supporting character in the end. In the end though...a mod is above all, for the maker. If they are happy with it, then they are happy with it. But if they want more widespread appeal, it could use some tweaks, some more serious than others.

    No modder is perfect. Even modders I label my favorite have their flaws. I would say Roxanne's flaws are definitely around developing a character, and that would be my advice to focus on.

    My answer to the question amounts to: I would download it myself, for research. But I would not recommend it to anyone because of the thievery.

    CaedwyrIseweinStummvonBordwehrTimbo0o0o0
  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,534
    Skitia wrote: »
    I'll take this one on to help it go on-topic. Bit of a long answer.

    Is Sandrah Saga worth it?

    The Answer varies, like with any mod. It is, despite it's criticisms and flaws, a passion project. Making a mod by yourself is very difficult. And it should be understood that many players do not check a mod to see if it has anything stolen, but if they can install it without issue and it has what they are looking for in its listed contents. They're looking for something new and fresh above all.

    As a modder, I have downloaded and perused through its files (I have done this for almost every NPC mod I could find.). It's a useful resource to see how some things work, though I'm not fond of the reply style in dialogue, I prefer my ++'s. I would personally play it if I did an EET playthrough, purely for understanding it's relationship to EET and what you could do with it, and if any of my own mods are bugged in an EET playthrough. So if you are a modder, I would say it is worth looking at the files at least for research and understanding. You don't need to play it for that.

    If you care about ethics however, then I would not recommend this mod. As others said, they did use other people's mods without asking.

    This is an odd thing to bring up, in a way, the entire point of a MoD requires resources that you don't really ask to use, and are entirely at the liberty of the game creators. If Beamdog said "No, you can't do this", then I would have to take my mod down. If I took resources from Fire Emblem and Intelligent Systems said no, I'd have to remove every voice asset I used in my mod. So there can be a fair argument that if one is just writing original code/lines for X fan character, such could be okay unless the creator says NO. I wouldn't care if my characters had crossmod written for them without asking. But I would be miffed if my work was re-uploaded and directly used. This is what Sandrah did in some cases. And while she removed some, others persist and that stings. It is completely understandable for someone to refuse to download the mod and ask others to not play it for this reason alone.

    If you like playing big mods, and the above isn't an issue, then you will probably like the Sandrah Saga. It's enormous and allows you to play Baldur's Gate in an entirely different way. That it goes through the entire saga and adds things after it isn't something that is really replicated anywhere else.

    If you are looking for good writing, look elsewhere. I'm going to stress, making a mod is hard, especially alone. You can be good at the design part, the writing part, the programming part, the art, or the audio part, but good luck being good at all of that. Writing isn't the modder's strongsuit. Sandrah is definitely the fitting definition of a Marysue. Hers definitely feels the creation of what a teenager might make. It has about that writing strength. It might sound harsh, but she is basically, from my analysis of the writing, that self-insertion for the teenage girl. The main character in parts, almost worships them, and there isn't much variation in response. I would uneducatedly guess this was a late highschool/early college project, and they started around that age range.

    As for story, maybe? There are interesting story bits and quests. I can see some players enjoying it and others finding it too much. On their sexuality...they get around a bit. Nothing wrong with sleeping around, but it should contribute something interesting to explore in their character. Also, they shouldn't do the Mystra *and* the Elminister angle. One or the other (And they still have other super unique background additions that could be cut out as well). Too many unique snowflake details makes a very poor character.

    My specific advice to them would be to give Sandrah flaws. Make her real. If you are going to give her something like Elminster's daughter, what are the flaws of this? Does she resent him? Idealize him?

    If I were going to do this, I would have them *wrongly* think they are Elminister's daughter, be arrogant about it, almost like an Anomen. Have them discover the truth and have it rip apart their world. <CHARNAME> could tell them they are still a great mage or cleric, or just laugh at them down because hey, they were so arrogant and egotistical, and now they got their comeuppance. But that's my editor's suggestion.

    The character needs less special features so it can focus on its story-beats and play off of them. You don't want too much, this is a supporting character in the end. In the end though...a mod is above all, for the maker. If they are happy with it, then they are happy with it. But if they want more widespread appeal, it could use some tweaks, some more serious than others.

    No modder is perfect. Even modders I label my favorite have their flaws. I would say Roxanne's flaws are definitely around developing a character, and that would be my advice to focus on.

    My answer to the question amounts to: I would download it myself, for research. But I would not recommend it to anyone because of the thievery.

    And that is the kind of very sensitive review I would recommend to anyone. Great analysis, @Skitia!

    CaedwyrAdam_en_tiumIseweinTimbo0o0o0
  • MothorMothor Member Posts: 114

    Sandrah is joy.

    Sandrah is life.

    Skitia wrote: »
    I'll take this one on to help it go on-topic. Bit of a long answer.

    Is Sandrah Saga worth it?

    The Answer varies, like with any mod. It is, despite it's criticisms and flaws, a passion project. Making a mod by yourself is very difficult. And it should be understood that many players do not check a mod to see if it has anything stolen, but if they can install it without issue and it has what they are looking for in its listed contents. They're looking for something new and fresh above all.

    As a modder, I have downloaded and perused through its files (I have done this for almost every NPC mod I could find.). It's a useful resource to see how some things work, though I'm not fond of the reply style in dialogue, I prefer my ++'s. I would personally play it if I did an EET playthrough, purely for understanding it's relationship to EET and what you could do with it, and if any of my own mods are bugged in an EET playthrough. So if you are a modder, I would say it is worth looking at the files at least for research and understanding. You don't need to play it for that.

    If you care about ethics however, then I would not recommend this mod. As others said, they did use other people's mods without asking.

    This is an odd thing to bring up, in a way, the entire point of a MoD requires resources that you don't really ask to use, and are entirely at the liberty of the game creators. If Beamdog said "No, you can't do this", then I would have to take my mod down. If I took resources from Fire Emblem and Intelligent Systems said no, I'd have to remove every voice asset I used in my mod. So there can be a fair argument that if one is just writing original code/lines for X fan character, such could be okay unless the creator says NO. I wouldn't care if my characters had crossmod written for them without asking. But I would be miffed if my work was re-uploaded and directly used. This is what Sandrah did in some cases. And while she removed some, others persist and that stings. It is completely understandable for someone to refuse to download the mod and ask others to not play it for this reason alone.

    If you like playing big mods, and the above isn't an issue, then you will probably like the Sandrah Saga. It's enormous and allows you to play Baldur's Gate in an entirely different way. That it goes through the entire saga and adds things after it isn't something that is really replicated anywhere else.

    If you are looking for good writing, look elsewhere. I'm going to stress, making a mod is hard, especially alone. You can be good at the design part, the writing part, the programming part, the art, or the audio part, but good luck being good at all of that. Writing isn't the modder's strongsuit. Sandrah is definitely the fitting definition of a Marysue. Hers definitely feels the creation of what a teenager might make. It has about that writing strength. It might sound harsh, but she is basically, from my analysis of the writing, that self-insertion for the teenage girl. The main character in parts, almost worships them, and there isn't much variation in response. I would uneducatedly guess this was a late highschool/early college project, and they started around that age range.

    As for story, maybe? There are interesting story bits and quests. I can see some players enjoying it and others finding it too much. On their sexuality...they get around a bit. Nothing wrong with sleeping around, but it should contribute something interesting to explore in their character. Also, they shouldn't do the Mystra *and* the Elminister angle. One or the other (And they still have other super unique background additions that could be cut out as well). Too many unique snowflake details makes a very poor character.

    My specific advice to them would be to give Sandrah flaws. Make her real. If you are going to give her something like Elminster's daughter, what are the flaws of this? Does she resent him? Idealize him?

    If I were going to do this, I would have them *wrongly* think they are Elminister's daughter, be arrogant about it, almost like an Anomen. Have them discover the truth and have it rip apart their world. <CHARNAME> could tell them they are still a great mage or cleric, or just laugh at them down because hey, they were so arrogant and egotistical, and now they got their comeuppance. But that's my editor's suggestion.

    The character needs less special features so it can focus on its story-beats and play off of them. You don't want too much, this is a supporting character in the end. In the end though...a mod is above all, for the maker. If they are happy with it, then they are happy with it. But if they want more widespread appeal, it could use some tweaks, some more serious than others.

    No modder is perfect. Even modders I label my favorite have their flaws. I would say Roxanne's flaws are definitely around developing a character, and that would be my advice to focus on.

    My answer to the question amounts to: I would download it myself, for research. But I would not recommend it to anyone because of the thievery.



    Sandrah is not THAT (errr...) bad but it would be better if Sandrah was even more Mary Sue. :dizzy:

    Like Sarevok after seeing her begs for a chance for atonement, Irenicus starts crying in fear, Lord Ao asking Sandrah if she would agree to listen to his request...

    All that while making Sandrah screw dozens of guys as Charname's only options in dialogue to that are "Whimper" and *sadface*.

    Then Sandrah orders Mystra to make Charname a Chosen of Mystra out of pity (Sandrah is already more powerful than Ao).

    It would be perfect comedy. :)

    Gorion's ward: I'm so happy that life has blessed me with being Lady Sandrah's occasional ****buddy while she saves the world over and over again.

    ThacoBellIseweinRik_KirtaniyaMirandel
  • NiziNiziNiziNizi Member Posts: 70
    If you can try to be even more dramatical, please try your best (for best results, my advice, try to multiply drama). Not sure if you are doing good enough :D

    Seem like Sandrah really makes people feel jealous, regarding both in-game, and now well known outside game reasons.

  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,786
    Well, the mod surely gets you going, as it seems. I wish I had such a fangirlboy!

    Rik_Kirtaniya
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,901
    Hahahhaha jealousy is certainly not the reason. You wanna know drama? Drama is making multiple alt accounts just to praise your own work, because no one else will. Now THAT'S drama.

    Rik_KirtaniyaMirandel
  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,183
    jastey wrote: »
    Well, the mod surely gets you going, as it seems. I wish I had such a fangirlboy!
    No. No thank you. I like actual, logical, literate human beings. They make me feel like I'm doing things right.

    Rik_KirtaniyaThacoBellMirandel
  • NiziNiziNiziNizi Member Posts: 70
    Accusing, falsely, another person (mod creator), for allegedly using alt account to praise (which is offtopic btw.), while at same time few of you are attempting hard on "in between party" discussion to cover each other's non argumented spam. And attempting to be funny also adds up :D

    Seems like you are the ones who are speaking way more than that "alt accounts".

    It indeed says something about you. For me it means nothing, but I'm glad other players have no problem to see past these cheap tricks, who btw., not lack in numbers and interest in mod.

  • NiziNiziNiziNizi Member Posts: 70
    jastey wrote: »
    Well, the mod surely gets you going, as it seems. I wish I had such a fangirlboy!

    Not so much, I would be happy to have more time for playing, but I try at least to take some time on it.

    However, I hope you will be also be the one who find my work interesting, upon release.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,901
    @NiziNizi Are you saying Roxxanne never made any alt accounts?

    Rik_Kirtaniya
  • NiziNiziNiziNizi Member Posts: 70
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    @NiziNizi Are you saying Roxxanne never made any alt accounts?

    I can't know things I can't see or get direct proof. "Proof" which accusers never provided. Instead used whole thing to construct campaing against Roxanne, and when you take a deeper look into it, is seem pretty opposite. As I explained in previous longer posts, one very good indication of this fact is this - she never get banned nor sanctioned in any way, but only gets blamed in public (which is not place to resolve such things). It is clear that was real goal of people who started accusations, but never proved anything.

    And even if that is true, that has exactly nothing to do with mod content (as well as this thread). If she break some forum rule, than let mods and admins deal with it (properly, not taking chance to open threads solely to dishonor person). From my poinf of view, it looks like this - she break something somewhere? Well, great, I simply do not care. It is almost same if you say "hey she did this/that in her life". Her personal things, her problem, zero connection with game and mod.

    And even if we imagine that proof exist and you prove that to me rock solid, it would have zero importance to me - I'm simply not obligated to care.

    Again, if anyone have doubts and tend even a little to belive in such claims, I suggest these people to read my previous posts. I won't waste time to provide facts and clear visible indications twice.

  • Glam_VrockGlam_Vrock Member Posts: 277
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,519
    i had this feeling nizi was an alt due to how hostile they were being. looks like i was right.

    Rik_KirtaniyaIseweinThacoBellFlashburn
  • StummvonBordwehrStummvonBordwehr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 909
    edited July 30
    @Skitia
    I am glad you took your time. It was an interesting read, and I enjoyed it. So thank you


    Another alt and another Roxanne alt ban. Man what a let down.

    Funny thing, I still have some vague hope that reason and responsibility hits Roxanne (my hopes taking a serious dent after reading the forum today... but well one can always hope...).

    Caedwyr
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