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  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,159
    megamike15 wrote: »
    beamdog in general seems bad at writing evil npcs. notice besides returning characters they did not make 1 new evil npc for sod.

    Though it was 2 evil, 1 good, 1 neutral in BG 2.

    Most people agree that Hexxat did not work that well - especially when she bantered with the vanilla NPCs.

    I think Raasad and Dorn are written well enough. Neera is sort of ok, but a bit over the top.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    megamike15 wrote: »
    beamdog in general seems bad at writing evil npcs. notice besides returning characters they did not make 1 new evil npc for sod.

    I paritally agree? BG1 Dorn was very well done, but they kinda, hmm, went a different direction for BG2.

    Balrog99Ardul
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,280
    Ammar wrote: »
    megamike15 wrote: »
    beamdog in general seems bad at writing evil npcs. notice besides returning characters they did not make 1 new evil npc for sod.

    Though it was 2 evil, 1 good, 1 neutral in BG 2.

    Most people agree that Hexxat did not work that well - especially when she bantered with the vanilla NPCs.

    I think Raasad and Dorn are written well enough. Neera is sort of ok, but a bit over the top.

    I think that Neera is pleasant but her quests are written poorly , specially the whole red wizard thing. If I were Beamdog I would written their npcs in a similar way that popular npc mods are written, where the npc interacts well with the game,the protagonist and existing quests while having just a couple of quests of their own ,so it doesnt make you feel like playing that character is like playing a different game.

    I don't remember Neera or Rasaad mention Dorn or the iron shortage even once in Bg1/Bg2 , and that contributes to the idea that theyre playing their own game.

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,716
    Dorn's BG2 writing apparently was made by the same author of Mojo Jojo (Powerpuff Girls). At least both sound the same.

    Dorn in BG1 is ok, nothing great. I feel the same about Hexxat; don't know where all the hate comes from (but an option to save Clara would be awesome).

    Hephernaan is so cartoonish evil that makes me want to laugh.

    Even the original ones are not great. They stick with the idea that evil = crazy. IIRC, except for Viconia all the evil NPCs are some kind of lunatic.

    DJKajuruAerakar
  • HalfOrcBeastmasterHalfOrcBeastmaster Member Posts: 284
    @Raduziel You forgot Kagain. He's pretty level-headed.

    That aside, I think that Alora should have been the default single-class thief. Being that she was stuck in Chapter 5, by which time the game was more than halfway over and you had probably done the lion's share of thief work with Imoen, Montaron, Coran or Safana, she never really gets a chance to shine. She's fun and bubbly and the single best thief in the game, and I think she could really have benefited from a chance to show off her skills in a whole new campaign. Sure with Glint around I guess it would be a little repetitive, but considering who they chose to be the default party thief instead, who the hell would you rather bring?

    Also, I would really like if Beamdog would add an Evil Dwarf Fighter to Siege of Dragonspear. Make him a Neutral Evil Dwarven Defender, call him Kaigiern (KAE-GERN) and give him High Mastery in Axes, plus three points in Two-Weapon Fighting. That way we could say each campaign has an Evil Dwarf Fighter, (note his name is similar to both Kagain and Korgan) we'd have a party tank to replace Minsc if we wanted to bring Edwin from the start and have someone to give equipment that benefits Dwarves (the Helmet of Dumathoin and the Lucky Boots, which give +2 Constitution and +3 to saving throws respectively). And yet another option for the Evil party. Wins all around.

    Aerakar
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,245
    edited March 2019
    Sleazy? He's just a normal musician...

    Balrog99
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    lroumen wrote: »
    Sleazy? He's just a normal musician...

    I wasn't aware kidnapping and extortion was so common in the music industry...

    megamike15HalfOrcBeastmasterWise_Grimwald
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,245
    edited March 2019
    If the groupie comes willingly, it is not a kidnapping case but a domestic dispute.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    lroumen wrote: »
    If the groupie comes willingly, it is not a kidnapping case but a domestic dispute.

    And the ransom?

  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    As a fan of Wildean one-liners (seriously, I read Dorian Grey pretty much entirely for more of Lord Henry's jokes), I'll admit some affection for Eldoth on those grounds. Also, he can use wands, which are kind of OP in BG1. SOD should probably have done more with him, seeing how they made Skie an important character and all. I may have missed it, but did we ever hear what happened to him?

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,280
    Abi_Dalzim wrote: »
    As a fan of Wildean one-liners (seriously, I read Dorian Grey pretty much entirely for more of Lord Henry's jokes), I'll admit some affection for Eldoth on those grounds. Also, he can use wands, which are kind of OP in BG1. SOD should probably have done more with him, seeing how they made Skie an important character and all. I may have missed it, but did we ever hear what happened to him?

    Gladly , the NPC project shows Skie getting gradually desiluded by Eldoth , so even though it ain't canon it does help you see her own independent self in SoD.

    Raduziel
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    DJKajuru wrote: »
    Gladly , the NPC project shows Skie getting gradually desiluded by Eldoth , so even though it ain't canon it does help you see her own independent self in SoD.

    I get that end of the equation, but this still doesn't tell me what happened to Eldoth after the two fell out.

  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,245
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    lroumen wrote: »
    If the groupie comes willingly, it is not a kidnapping case but a domestic dispute.

    And the ransom?
    I'm sure the Duke considers it payment for grievances given the spoiled behaviour of his daughter to anyone.

  • HalfOrcBeastmasterHalfOrcBeastmaster Member Posts: 284
    Abi_Dalzim wrote: »
    DJKajuru wrote: »
    Gladly , the NPC project shows Skie getting gradually desiluded by Eldoth , so even though it ain't canon it does help you see her own independent self in SoD.

    I get that end of the equation, but this still doesn't tell me what happened to Eldoth after the two fell out.

    I think I saw a line about how he dumped her to go chase another woman. Don't know for sure though.

    Come to think of it, Skie would have been a good candidate for default party thief as well. Just give her a ring that prevents her from dying, making her teleport back to camp. They did it with Imoen in BGII right? Y'know, the belt she had in Irenicus' dungeon?

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    Abi_Dalzim wrote: »
    DJKajuru wrote: »
    Gladly , the NPC project shows Skie getting gradually desiluded by Eldoth , so even though it ain't canon it does help you see her own independent self in SoD.

    I get that end of the equation, but this still doesn't tell me what happened to Eldoth after the two fell out.

    When you first run into her in SoD, there is a dialogue option to ask about Eldoth. I've never taken it though, my charname never mets her in BG1 so they wouldn't know about him.

  • MyragMyrag Member Posts: 292
    This might be unpopular opinion I feel but I like LoB and I think it is the sole reason I got back to BG after 5 years of absence. I don't mind that the difficulty curve is not well balanced either and neither do I mind that some classes are not well suited for LoB.

    semiticgoddess
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,716
    I think that LoB is a missed opportunity.

    When it was first announced I thought that it would be a sum of more enemies + better AI + kind of enemy scaling with level.

    But it is just a bucketload of HPs to everyone.

    ThacoBell
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,780
    Legacy of Bhaal mode doesn't just give extra HP to enemies!

    It also gives them +12 to all class levels, +5 THAC0, +5 to saving throws (currently bugged), +1 APR, and, as of the most recent update, -11 AC.

    Oh, and enemies deal double damage.

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,716
    semiticgod wrote: »
    Legacy of Bhaal mode doesn't just give extra HP to enemies!

    It also gives them +12 to all class levels, +5 THAC0, +5 to saving throws (currently bugged), +1 APR, and, as of the most recent update, -11 AC.

    Oh, and enemies deal double damage.

    Potatoes, potatoes.

    Works as a inexplicable buff from a lazy DM anyway.

    I could respect a pack of vampiric wolves trying to ambush me. I can't respect a ninja grey wolf who needs a tank to be put down.

    I've tried LoB just to be fair with my critique and on top of all the nonsense everything gets so bloody boring.

    Same missed opportunity goes for Story Mode.

    I know that there are people out there who loves this kind of stuff, but this definitely is not my cup of tea.

    semiticgoddesssarevok57
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,780
    @Raduziel: That was the joke, actually. I wanted to highlight all the other crazy bonuses they tacked on to it.

    LoB mode is really only fun with certain parties or certain strategies, and those strategies tend to involve avoiding most of the fights in the game. Some folks like wrestling with LoB Sarevok, but no one will put up with fighting LoB kobolds if they can help it.

    Raduziel
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,510
    edited March 2019
    sorry for crashing the party everyone but someone made a post about Shar-Teel and her evilness and what not, so here i am typing for everything that i've got and when i went to go post comment, the discussion disappeared like a fart in the wind

    so with that being said, i want to say this post actually makes sense in this discussion because it talks about opinions/unpopular ones and this one is what EVIL actually is, so im just going to leave my 3 cents here, and crawl back into the darkness like i usually do on these forums, so here was my shpeal and after this slight detour you chums can go back to your original programming :)

    if Shar-Teel was an honorable evil warrior she would be lawful evil

    to me a chaotic evil character/creature is something that does what they want, when they want to do it

    also, intelligence i think comes into play with this as well

    dumber creatures ( INT of 9 or less ) in theory don't really come up with complex ideas or sophisticated ways of doing things, so usually when less intelligent creatures are chaotic evil, its more of the; doing what they want when they want to do it sort of thing

    now creatures with higher INT might revel more in their chaos, and they perhaps like watching those under them suffer ( demons for example ) and they can come up with malevolent ways of doing so

    and then creatures in the middle INT wise perhaps just have a thirst for power, they believe they are above the rest and they should get what they want when they want it

    now with Shar-Teel from what i recall she has high INT ( around 14 or so ) but low WIS ( around 7 or so ) so this actually can play into the "evil" part quite well, she's quick on the draw when it comes to thinking, but she doesn't learn from her actions, although with that higher INT she doesn't really seem to much at all involved with coming up with schemes, mostly because the original devs didn't think this hard about her character and a lot of joinable characters in BG 1 or pretty shallow when it comes to character development and most of this is by pure speculation

    although, when you listen to Shar-Teel's banter, she even states that she loves blood shed and if it bleeds she can kill it, and when she gets a compliment from a female she even states that flattery will get you no where

    so by that, she basically seems to hate everyone and everything, which perfectly matches a chaotic evil type attitude

    for me, in my DnD campaign that i have right now ( you start at level 1 and there is enough adventure to grow to level 5 ) the way on how i do evil creatures is thus ( for the most part ):

    lawful evil;
    these are "disciplined" baddies, baddies that will follow orders and don't care what their orders are, and if a "boss" type creature had this alignment it is very possible they they will follow the law and not break rules ever, BUT if they can find a loop hole in the system that can best tailor to their needs, then they will do so with no hesitation, in my opinion, smart evil creatures would be this alignment, because other creatures can rely on a lawful evil creature, knowing that they aren't just a wild card that is going to do whatever they damn will please, and with a lawful evil creature, you aren't going to get backstabbed from a surprise source out of no where, they creatures will warn you ahead of time, so usually my more intelligent boss baddies or "soldier/mercenary" creatures are lawful evil

    neutral evil;
    neutral evil creatures to me are creatures that are much more reserved and kind of keep to themselves but have malevolent natures, they do what they wish, at the expense of others, but they don't do it for the thrill that a chaotic evil creature would and laws and regulations don't mean anything to them whatsoever, if a neutral evil character has a goal, they will do whatever is necessary to accomplish it, if they need to burn down a village to get an ancient artifact from a priest lets say, they don't care if people live or die, it was just a quick and easy way to get what they need, in fact in the same scenario, a neutral evil creature would threaten to burn the village down if they don't give them the artifact, and once he got it, he would be on his way, while a chaotic evil creature would burn it down anyway, although the neutral evil character is not afraid to cause collateral damage if necessary, in fact Jon Irenicus is a perfect example of Neutral Evil, all he cares about is power, and he will do anything it takes to get it, but with that, he doesn't go out of his way to make others suffer because that procrastinates his goal, he would rather kill quickly and get filth out of the way, while a chaotic evil creature would rather have them suffer first of even continue to suffer

    chaotic evil:
    as i basically already said, this alignment is usually for dumb evil monsters because either a) there are no rules in their world and they do what they wish when they wish or b) if they are intelligent they are usually the most malevolent creatures wanting nothing more than making the universe suffer to their power, now on the higher power end of things ( stronger creatures ) they see themselves as above all else, and that the world should succumb to them, they make the rules and they do as they wish, and if anyone or anything objects; destroy it, i made a chaotic evil character in DnD once, the only character out of our group of friends from 20 years of PnP that became epic, Dracke the Barbarian, an 8'2" tall half-orc that had the blood of a god through his veins ( hence the reason why he was so tall, but had no other special abilities other than the fact that he was considered a large creature ) and chaos was in his viens, he welcomed chaos, he wanted to see the world burn, he wanted his power to grow, he wanted to become an unstoppable force of mass destruction, but after awhile of practically destroying the material plane, solars and angels got involved and Dracke become older and wiser, and more *focused* on his power, so when he became Epic he was involved with a council of Solars that he must change his ways or else Dracke would be hunted down for the rest of his life from the champions of good ( and even though he has killed dozens, if not 100s of divine champions, he may eventually get overwhelmed, although at this point it was more of a bluff on the Solars' end because his power was so great, even Solars were becoming equals ) so anyways, the trial was over and Dracke became Chaotic Neutral instead, but with that being said, being nice is still something he is no good at, but his lust for bloodshed has become more focused, only powerful creatures is who he is concerned about, and he will challenge anyone that gets in his way, and if he has to save a city or a plane of existence to do so, so be it, although he won't openly commit evil acts, but he doesn't object to them either

    now in the campaign im making, there is going to be one chaotic evil intelligent creature, its going to be a half-orc/half-dragon/half-fiend now i know this sounds silly, but i do have a story on how this is actually possible, actually in fact this story is the whole reason why this creature is chaotic evil;
    it is the time of the demons, and their plan it to expand their army on to the material plane but they need, someone to lead their armies on the material plane to fight against the fiends of the 9 hells, should they succeed, then the 9 hells will be wiped out

    so the most unholy of rituals will be done with "perfect - genetic - breeding" a black dragon polymorphed into a human fornicates with an orc of full demonic ancestry to create a create of absolute wickedness, but also can have the form of an accepted creature on the material plane ( magical items hide the true lineage of this creature so he just looks like a normal half-orc ) with this ritual complete, this half-orc will grow and be taught the ways on how to lead the armies of the material plane to the 9 hells, so this half-orc will grow up to become a leader of the most prominent city of the "material plane" and that is Silver City ( the capital city in my campaign who's riches would rival even Sigil ) once this half-orc has full control over this city then the plan of taking over the material plane can start

    the back story to this back story is that on the dragon side, the dragon is a financial partner with one of 2 noble houses in Silver City ( one being evil, one being neutral ) so this dragon is associated with the evil side, but tires of having to "share the wealth" sort of speak, so the dragon's plan is to be involved with the ritual to help the demons make their champion so then the dragon can corrupt the demon's champion to help further it's goals of wiping out their partners and it's competition to become the wealthiest creature of the material plane and basically rule the material plane since it would hold much of the plane's wealth, and then the demons would be forced to "work for the dragon" but the demons know of this, and have used the dragon's lust for wealth to easily get the dragon to assist them in their plans, while the demons not giving a slightest damn on the dragon's desires, and will likely no doubt kill the dragon at the opportune time for its ignorance

    so lots of evil scheming going on everywhere sort of speak

    but the joke is on everyone involved because of the mix of abyssal and draconic powers flowing through his veins, his mind has become complete corrupt, with some much magical wickedness he instead wants to destroy all the players involved for making him what he is; an abomination pretty much ( not the actual template from the epic players handbook, but just the definition of it ) and it angers him greatly that his sole purpose is to be someone else's puppet, so with that internal rage he plans to betray everyone and use his extreme powers to become a god, and destroy anything that deems itself dragon or demon or even devil and he will stop at nothing to do so, but the kicker is, he acts like he is "lawful good" and he has items on that hide his true appearance and his true alignment so the PCs won't be the wiser, so when the players hit Silver City they will have no idea whats going on, since the half-orc will be playing victim to all the craziness that will be going down

    although, the half-orc never fulfills this prophecy because the characters will stop him at level 19 ( he is the 2nd last boss fight of the non epic campaign )

    rather ironic actually, the characters will not know in the non-epic part what the true reason of this half-orc's existence was about, all they will know is that he is actually the evil one, and he is building an army to start genocide

    and now this gives me the perfect idea for the beginning of the epic game where the PCs actually find out what was truly going on the whole time and they will have to battle the "demon lord" dude that was involved with all this tom foolery

    so yeah, long story short, this is another way on how you can justify and evil character

    PS: i think LoB is kind of lame, boring and unbalanced for the BG series and i refer to it as: Legacy of LOL mode

    AerakarBelgarathMTH
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,613
    Sarevok is chaotic evil. I consider him the archetype of high intelligence chaotic evil. Chaotic evil doesn't have to equal chaotic stupid, although sometimes it works out that way with the low intelligence version.

    Montresor_SPThacoBellsarevok57Aerakar
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    When you first run into her in SoD, there is a dialogue option to ask about Eldoth. I've never taken it though, my charname never mets her in BG1 so they wouldn't know about him.

    I did take that. It didn't give me any answers either.

    ThacoBell
  • shabadooshabadoo Member Posts: 304
    edited March 2019
    LE is the epitome of a boss baddie. They might have said they wouldn't hurt you...But they never said their henchmen wouldn't. It's like dealing with djinn or sphinx. You have to pay very close attention to the details.

    Edit: and yes even a backstab by surprise source. You might get the "do it or else" warning, but the or else could happen blatantly in your face or by complete surprise. After all, they are going to show loyalty to those loyal to them.

    sarevok57
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,280
    Another example of smart evil os Artemis Entreri. Based on the Icewind Dale book trilogy , Artemis' lawful evil reflects two things : he fulfills his assassination jobs as ordered (lawful) but he also seems to enjoy what he does to his victims , in fact he loves being feared by others .

    ThacoBellsarevok57
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,273
    Sarevok is chaotic evil. I consider him the archetype of high intelligence chaotic evil. Chaotic evil doesn't have to equal chaotic stupid, although sometimes it works out that way with the low intelligence version.

    For me he has always been NE. He does what he does for his own personal gain, not to sow chaos for chaos sake. Personally I think CE is used on way, way to many characters and creatures where NE would be more applicable.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,280
    Skatan wrote: »
    Sarevok is chaotic evil. I consider him the archetype of high intelligence chaotic evil. Chaotic evil doesn't have to equal chaotic stupid, although sometimes it works out that way with the low intelligence version.

    For me he has always been NE. He does what he does for his own personal gain, not to sow chaos for chaos sake. Personally I think CE is used on way, way to many characters and creatures where NE would be more applicable.

    I think that the difference betweeb a NE character and Sarevok is the fact that Charname's brother enjoys every single death he inflicts , which indicates that he would gladly start a war even if it weren't necessary to do so.

    sarevok57
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