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Wellyn's ghost and a paladin

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Comments

  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 126
    Is it even possible to beat the game with mundane weapons? There are so many creatures that require an enchanted weapon of some sort to even hit them. That's why near the bottom of a certain tower, the developers had to supply some mundane weapons - they knew you wouldn't have any by then.

    Arvia
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,421
    i always carry them with me, are really useful against mages protected by pfmw, but...
    usually in the poverty runs the player use enchanted weapons he obtain trough spells to fight, the mundane staff is allowed cause there are enemies that can not be beaten with enchanted weapons.
    it has also to be told that to beat the game very few kills are really needed, you can skip that tower and many other quests and in the main plot only few enemies have really to die, you can skip a lot of battles.
    anyway i would say that a not caster can not beat the game, not even the soa part, using only a staff, as the vampire you have to kill is immune to non enchanted weapons.

  • DurenasDurenas Member Posts: 505
    Arvia wrote: »
    @Khyron This sounds interesting but it's not how I want to play my character right now. Maybe after several frustrated playthroughs as a "real" paladin. I'm still too idealistic about changing the world. Give me another decade maybe...

    The Grey Guards sound like the paladins got themselves a Section 31 🤔

    Edit: Of course I killed him. Though I feel bad because he tried to flee. But struggling conscience is no excuse to neglect duty. And then my notebook died, too. Great.

    The thing is, Good and Evil are real physical concepts in D&D, not just moral choices. As a paladin, violently opposing evil is just part of the job.

    BelgarathMTH
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 330
    edited April 13
    @Durenas What about the "lawful" part? The way you put it, my paladin should walk into the Copper Coronet, cast Detect Evil and slaughter that nameless nobleman who is sitting there drinking a beer, just because he glows red? Without any justifying reason or authorization?
    I don't think so.

    Edited: auto complete is annoying... sorry.

    ZaghoulBelgarathMTH
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 736
    Paladins usually adhere to the laws of their god, rather than the laws of society, so extrajudicial killings without confirming any evil deeds isn't unheard of.

    For the most part though I agree you should need more than "Detect Evil" to kill somebody. Most of the gods are more specific in their crusade than that. They compel you to hunt criminals or the undead or monsters or any number of specific things, but they don't generally compel you to just run around killing anything that pings red.

    ThacoBellBelgarathMTHArviaDurenas
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,421
    edited April 13
    keldorn kills viconia if they remain in the party too long for the very reason that she "glows red", she is a drow so inherently evil. but is good comrade with korgan that glows red as well...
    i don't have any clue about the F.R. lore outside the bg2 game, but from what i have learned playing the ellistrae's song mod it is not true that the drows are inherently evil and is also not true that good and evil are physical concepts not related to moral choices, the whole story of ellistrae and her mission as minor deity is an evidence that even an "evil race" like the drows has a choice, or at least its members have a choice. the alignment is physical in the sense that it can be detected, but is subjected to the choice and can change. and also in the game, mods excluded, we have more then 1 example. anomen, viconia and mr tob can make a choice and change their alignments.

    edit: @Arvia as you like so much the rp side of the game i really suggest you that mod, you can possibly give it a try someday.
    an other mod that is really interesting rp wise is the keto npc mod, keto is a female bard that has a personal sidequest that is all about rp and choices, that she has to make with the help of charname, i don't remember a sigle battle added by that mod.

  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 591
    Because somebody is evil with detect evil, its not a reason to kill her. The paladins only judge and kill because of evil deeds not evil thoughts. The only exception is a race of always evil allignement.

    ArviaBelgarathMTH
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,421
    edited April 13
    the drow race is not one of those, viconia drizzt and the ellistrae followers prove it.
    should i assume that keldorn should fall after killing viki? as far as he know she has not done evil deeds, and she is not member of a always evil race, so according with what you tell he is only an assassin, guilty of racist prejudice, he deserves to fall...

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 736
    As you point out, he kills her because she's a drow. His criteria is more specific than the detect evil spell can provide. He lets other evil people pass by untouched.

    His god hates drow, so he kills drow. It's also an illustration of the fact that even the "good" gods in The Realms don't necessarily exemplify moral perfection. Mortal Servants of the gods are but pieces in a cosmic game of chess, killing and dying just to earn their God some advantage against opposing gods.


    At the end of the day, however he might couch his actions in morality, all they truly come down to is that Viconia is a creation of Lolth, and a servant of Shar, and by killing her Keldorn's god has removed one of their pieces from the board.

    gorgonzola
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    May I remind everybody of Phandalyn in Baldur's Gate I who casts Detect Evil on your party and attacks you if your group is harboring even a single evil person?
    (and your reputation drops if you defend yourself)

    Good and evil are real things in D&D. That is the reason why Holy Smite works. Yes, you can change your alignment, but it is a painful process and not just a simple choice. (Chaos and Law are real things in much the same way)
    Viconia is provably evil, and she talks of murder.
    I think through all the beings that I have killed, and I do not think I have ever felt remorse for any of them. Why should I? They deserved what they received, were in my way, or were simply weak.
    By my own morals, that is no good reason to kill her. But in a world where Evil is a tangible thing and where you know that her faith gives power to an evil God too, I can understand why Keldorn cuts her down.

    ArviagorgonzolaBelgarathMTHBalrog99
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 736
    Phandalyn is not the norm. Though he's not unheard of either.

    More power to you if that's what you're roleplaying, but to say that's all a paladin is or can be is a bit much.

    There's usually more to being a paladin than running around killing everything that pings your evil scanning ability, if only because people like a bit more customizability in their character than that.

    Arviagorgonzola
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 736
    No one's arguing that Viconia isn't evil, but that's not why he killed her, because he doesn't react that same way to other evil characters.

    gorgonzola
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,574
    Chronicler wrote: »
    No one's arguing that Viconia isn't evil, but that's not why he killed her, because he doesn't react that same way to other evil characters.

    Its not just because she is a drow. Keldorn very vocally admires Drizzt. If I recall correctly, Keldorn is one if the npcs that pushes you to rescue Viconia when she is about to be burned at the stake as well. Note that Viconia is not only actually evil, but also a follower of Shar, one the most evil deities in the setting. Attempted to to end all light and life at least once. Has tried to murder Selune and Mystra multiple times. And her only allies among the deities are the oh so lovable Talona and Cyric. Keldorn does not hate Viconia because she is a drow, he hates Viconia because she is evil and acts as such, as well as serves one of the biggest evils in the realms.

    Balrog99Ammar
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 736
    edited April 13
    Eh, we're never told which god Korgan worships to my knowledge but you could say pretty much all that same stuff about him. Edwin too, though I wouldn't be surprised if he's godless, with his plans of achieving immortality.

    It's a persistent theme with Keldorn too. The other companion he'll kill is the vampire. Which once again, yes she's evil, but so are lots of people. His criteria is more specific than "evil".

    Edit: Forgot, he'll also kill the half orc demon worshipper and oddly enough Anomen if he fails his quest. Even though in Anomen's case he's chaotic neutral, and specifically wouldn't ping red if he scanned him.

    Post edited by Chronicler on
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 736
    Worth bringing Mazzy into the discussion too.

    A lot of people hold that Keldorn is a dissection of the problems inherent in the classic paladin archetype. His whole thing is basically that he's always conflicted with himself. Can't take two steps without being torn between his duty to his god or his duty to his home, between what's good and what's lawful, between one law and another.

    Where under this school of thought Mazzy is held up as the ideal of what a Paladin should be. Mazzy has a coherant ideology, a god she agrees with, she is a single-minded vehicle of justice with none of Keldorn's wishy washy hesitation.

    Oddly enough, Mazzy didn't conflict with any of the evil companions in the original games, though she does conflict with Hexxat in the enhanced editions. Haven't tried grouping them together to see how exactly that conflict pans out. Overall though she seems more willing to accept unsavory company so long as we're unified under a single (just) cause for the moment.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,421
    Chronicler wrote: »
    Mazzy is held up as the ideal of what a Paladin should be. Mazzy has a coherant ideology, a god she.............
    but naturally she is not a paladin, she is not human, while the paladin, whose house is less then 1 hour from the headquarter of the order has no time to visit his wife and family, cause he has to do more noble and important things. what? probably brag with the esquires and talk about the good old times with his fellow paladins as every time i drop into the order's headquarter i find him there, he is never in mission...

    so goes the world, both in the game and in the real life :D

    Chronicler
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 736
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    Chronicler wrote: »
    Mazzy is held up as the ideal of what a Paladin should be. Mazzy has a coherant ideology, a god she.............
    but naturally she is not a paladin, she is not human, while the paladin, whose house is less then 1 hour from the headquarter of the order has no time to visit his wife and family, cause he has to do more noble and important things. what? probably brag with the esquires and talk about the good old times with his fellow paladins as every time i drop into the order's headquarter i find him there, he is never in mission...

    so goes the world, both in the game and in the real life :D

    Beamdog, by the way, seems to be much laxer with the class/race restrictions for their NPC's than the originals.

    They'll introduce Half Orc Blackguards and Wild Mages. There's that dwarven lich, who at a bare minimum knows arcane magic after he becomes a lich.

    Kind of wish they'd change the restrictions in the player creation screen accordingly. We've established a universe where half orcs can be paladins. I shouldn't have to mod the game to make one anymore.

    gorgonzola
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,574
    Chronicler wrote: »
    Eh, we're never told which god Korgan worships to my knowledge but you could say pretty much all that same stuff about him. Edwin too, though I wouldn't be surprised if he's godless, with his plans of achieving immortality.

    It's a persistent theme with Keldorn too. The other companion he'll kill is the vampire. Which once again, yes she's evil, but so are lots of people. His criteria is more specific than "evil".

    Edit: Forgot, he'll also kill the half orc demon worshipper and oddly enough Anomen if he fails his quest. Even though in Anomen's case he's chaotic neutral, and specifically wouldn't ping red if he scanned him.

    Keldorn is going off of more than just, "This person is evil." You can see it in his interactions with other evil characters. Edwin is all bluster and never really does anything "evil" in Keldorn's presence. Same goes for Korgan, but replace "bluster" with "loves a fight." Viconia is easily the most evil companion out of all the vanilla BG2 npcs.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 736
    edited April 14
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Chronicler wrote: »
    Eh, we're never told which god Korgan worships to my knowledge but you could say pretty much all that same stuff about him. Edwin too, though I wouldn't be surprised if he's godless, with his plans of achieving immortality.

    It's a persistent theme with Keldorn too. The other companion he'll kill is the vampire. Which once again, yes she's evil, but so are lots of people. His criteria is more specific than "evil".

    Edit: Forgot, he'll also kill the half orc demon worshipper and oddly enough Anomen if he fails his quest. Even though in Anomen's case he's chaotic neutral, and specifically wouldn't ping red if he scanned him.

    Keldorn is going off of more than just, "This person is evil." You can see it in his interactions with other evil characters. Edwin is all bluster and never really does anything "evil" in Keldorn's presence. Same goes for Korgan, but replace "bluster" with "loves a fight." Viconia is easily the most evil companion out of all the vanilla BG2 npcs.

    Korgan does not "Love a fight". He is not some harmless bar brawler. He loves to kill, and has no compunctions about whether his killings are justified or not.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 736
    If anything he's way more evil than Viconia.

    Viconia killed once on the surface, allegedly the only people she killed were her rapists. Korgan kills professionally, constantly, gleefully. He'll kill anybody if you pay him a nickel.

    gorgonzola
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 736
    edited April 14
    Either way though, we seem to agree that Keldorn doesn't just go around killing anybody who scans evil, so we should probably move the rest of this to a new thread.

    Edit: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/75139/most-evil-companion

    Made a thread.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,574
    edited April 14
    Chronicler wrote: »
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Chronicler wrote: »
    Eh, we're never told which god Korgan worships to my knowledge but you could say pretty much all that same stuff about him. Edwin too, though I wouldn't be surprised if he's godless, with his plans of achieving immortality.

    It's a persistent theme with Keldorn too. The other companion he'll kill is the vampire. Which once again, yes she's evil, but so are lots of people. His criteria is more specific than "evil".

    Edit: Forgot, he'll also kill the half orc demon worshipper and oddly enough Anomen if he fails his quest. Even though in Anomen's case he's chaotic neutral, and specifically wouldn't ping red if he scanned him.

    Keldorn is going off of more than just, "This person is evil." You can see it in his interactions with other evil characters. Edwin is all bluster and never really does anything "evil" in Keldorn's presence. Same goes for Korgan, but replace "bluster" with "loves a fight." Viconia is easily the most evil companion out of all the vanilla BG2 npcs.

    Korgan does not "Love a fight". He is not some harmless bar brawler. He loves to kill, and has no compunctions about whether his killings are justified or not.

    Can you list any instance of Korgan going on a wanton slaughter that sets him apart from any of the other companions? I can't think of a single instance in game where he actually starts a fight. Heck, if we couldn't see his alignment in game, a new player might think him chaotic good after seeing his disgust at the slavers.

    EnialusMeliamne
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 736
    He's literally running a mercenary business when you meet him.

    Once you recruit him into the party obviously he doesn't kill anybody unless you push the button, same as every other companion, but he's pretty clear and open about what he does.

    Heck, you might apply the same reasoning to Viconia. She doesn't do anything unless you tell her to. Leave all her spell slots empty and she stops praying to her god.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,574
    Chronicler wrote: »
    He's literally running a mercenary business when you meet him.

    Once you recruit him into the party obviously he doesn't kill anybody unless you push the button, same as every other companion, but he's pretty clear and open about what he does.

    Heck, you might apply the same reasoning to Viconia. She doesn't do anything unless you tell her to. Leave all her spell slots empty and she stops praying to her god.

    So, what makes a mercenary business evil? Heck even good aligned charnames do mercenary work. No matter what you do, Viconia calls on the name of her god and has many scripted dialogues encouraging evil acts.

    Heck, worshipping and actively serving the only goddess in the settign who not only wants to wipe out ALL LIFE IN THE UNVERSE and has make attempts to do so in the past, makes Viconia more evil than almost anyone else on its own. Full stop.

    Arvia
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 736
    You claimed he "Just loves a fight". As if all he does is punch it out with people nonlethally.

    When I pointed out that he doesn't love to fight, he loves to kill, you claimed that his killings are no different from the good characters, who go about killing for justice.

    When I pointed out that he does not kill for justice, but rather for money, you moved the goalpost again to "What's wrong with that?"

    Gee, I don't know, what is wrong with that? How about you tell me why you've repeatedly tried to frame it as if that is not the case?

    gorgonzola
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 330
    edited April 14
    @Chronicler I'm obviously prejudiced in favour of Keldorn, I recognize that. But I think the way he is torn between duties, between lawful and good, is exactly what makes him credible. It would be very scary if the most powerful holy warriors never questioned their motives.
    100% sure about their godly authorization and never doubting? That would put a paladin on the same level as a fanatical terrorist and suicide bomber.
    Mazzy is much younger and has less experience, of course she has less doubts.

    As to his family, now that's a little unfair, of course he is always found at the order's headquarters, as an NPC he couldn't possibly be programmed to randomly be found either there or at home or away on campaign.
    His wife may have a point, but she knew what she was getting into.
    That is by the way one of the reasons why the catholic church doesn't allow their priests to marry. It's hard to be a good husband and father while being a father to the whole parish at the same time.
    I have a good friend who is married to an orthodox priest, has 7 children and lives in a country where she doesn't even really speak the language. She is convinced that he has found his calling and she supports him although she rarely sees him.
    And what about the many military families?(anyone here?)
    I don't say that I would like to live that way, and I'm a mother myself so I can sympathise with Maria a little, but you make choices in life and then you have to bear the consequences. It would be unfair to blame the one who was involved, because the choice was still hers, to marry a man whose first and foremost duty was to his service.

    (I apologise for editing so much. Can't switch off auto complete and it keeps jumping between languages)

    BelgarathMTH
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 801
    @Arvia
    Keldorn also knew what he was getting into when he fathered children. The point is that you can't apply the same logic to his daughters. How do you think a child would feel when their father is back from campaign, yet instead of spending time with them, stays at the paladin headquarters and doesn't even bother visiting them? It's a very uncaring, if not downright cruel thing to do as a parent. We are not talking here about some insurmountable effort; he is not a squire and could ask for a free afternoon to spend time with family. The order has other paladins stationed in Athkatla.

    That, and his attempts to buddy up to Korgan. Ok, so Vicky is evil and should be killed, but you'll compliment the evil dwarf who is very upfront about enjoying murder and torture? Suuure.

    gorgonzola
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,574
    edited April 14
    Chronicler wrote: »
    You claimed he "Just loves a fight". As if all he does is punch it out with people nonlethally.

    When I pointed out that he doesn't love to fight, he loves to kill, you claimed that his killings are no different from the good characters, who go about killing for justice.

    When I pointed out that he does not kill for justice, but rather for money, you moved the goalpost again to "What's wrong with that?"

    Gee, I don't know, what is wrong with that? How about you tell me why you've repeatedly tried to frame it as if that is not the case?

    No, I made a comparison between his actual in-game actions. I did NOT compare philosophies. There is no time in game where Korgan's bloodthirst causes him to start an unnecessry fight outside of your control. The actual ACTS of violence that he enacts are no different in scale from the actions of every other npc in the game. If you really want to make an argument for Korgan being more evil than Viconia, you will have to somehow make universal xenocide somehow look better than a violent dwarf who is disgusted by hurting children and slavery (something that Viconia is completely indifferent to.)

    @Arvia I don't think Keldorn has an excuse for abandoning his family. Your standard paladin order seems to be pretty heavily based on the early Catholic church. One of the major beliefs of/traditons of the church is that marriage is seen as a promise to God to protect and support your family. Keldorn failing to do so can very easily be seen as failure of that duty. He took an oath at his wedding that he has willfully ignored.

    gorgonzola
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