God PLEASE NO 3D. Some games just aren't good in 3D. It would change the entire game, you might as well make a different game. This talk of moving forward into the age of 3d is also completely misguided. Just because 3d came out after isometric doesn't mean it's better. Plus a lot of people here are saying 3d as in first person 3d like oblivion, morrowind, etc. Personally I would hate to play a game like SC, WC, supreme commander.... rts genre in any other view than isometric.
Besides isometric views have evolved also, do not forget improved GUI which is extremely important, but we all know that most isometric games now are also 3d modeled even if it is to their detriment (some look cartoony).
If I wanted to play another elder scrolls then I would buy elder scrolls, I can't see me controlling a party member of 8 characters effeciently in first person viewpoint, maybe from some god like viewpoint that is farther out than 3rd person but I still would bet my house against it coming out right.
As far as the comment about "If I wanted to use my imagination I would read a book". That's just silly. RPG's themselves (at least good ones) are stories themselves. BG has one of the best (my personal favorite) storylines in the game. Not only was the storyline good but the way the storyline was revealed to you is very important. If you played that game through in a different viewpoint you would find the level of immersion in the story to change quite a bit, some people possibly for the better but I'm willing to bet 90% or more would find out that it would not be as entertaining.
The elder scrolls games and for that matter any 3rd/first person view game has never been able to match the storyline presence of games like BG for storylines involving a larger group of people because the viewpoint just doesn't give you the constant presence of those characters in the same way.
I'll probably never be able to explain it fully, needless to say I would be so very sad if this happened. Very sad indeed.
I think one of the major factors for choosing isometric would be the battlefield overview. Heck, even overview in general!
I have played some 3D games (and to a certain extent enjoyed them) but the lack of overview that is proved in 2D isometric always bugs me. I'm always irritated that I can't have complete control over my party and battlefield.
yeah i dont mind a little 3d rendering and shading as well as improved graphical details, as long as they keep the 2d fixed isometric view. it seems to suit this kind of gameplay well
Baldur's Gate is not a 2D game in the traditional sense. The game assets were created in 3D, the lighting placed exactly where they wanted it, and then everything was "baked" into 2D files. This was done because the level of detail in BG would not have been possible in 3D at the time. Now it is.
I say 3D isometric is more in keeping with the original intent.
I think too, that in the future 3D can be good, but at the moment 2D is superior. I considerd the most of the maps in 2D in BG, IWD and PT as real art. I didnt see anything like this in 3D (Skyrim is another thing).
Building that kind of art in 3D would be awesome (on a big screen even Skyrim showed empty spaces when you looked over the planes from a hill for example).
Even NWN looked not bad, it seriously failed the terminus "Art". I also see that 3D getting better (and for Skyrim it works fine (i really love that game)) but it is expensive as hell.
If 3D looks the same as 2D from the same position in isoperspectiv and it would only be twice as expensive to do, then go for it. If more then twice expensive, then let it be.
That said I still think 3D background would be fine, but I think a fixed perspective is best for a party-based rpg. As soon as you have to start controlling the camera, things get awkward. I always felt this way in NWN - things just get in the way. I've said elsewhere around here that, as much as I love detailed 3D games, I never felt in BG like I really wanted to see behind a wall or around a corner.
I agree entirely with this. Games like Baldur's Gate, the early Fallout games, Arcanum were all made in such a way that you don't need a zoom or rotate camera function. In many ways I like not being able to view my character up close, I like their features to remain fairly blurred and letting them be filled in with my imagination. In almost every single RPG that gives you all those appearance choices I go through all the options... and not like any of them.
In NWN and Dragon Age I always have to rotate the camera but only a few seconds later I have to rotate it again because the battlefield has changed and a wall is now blocking my view.
The only cool aspect would be that the same top down view could be watch from multiple sides, so i can look down upon things from a different angle, being able to see a battle from multiple angles.
When I think of today's 3d, I think of Skyrim When I think of today's 2d, I think of Dungeon Siege III
Even with some faults, I, as a player, felt more emerged in Skyrim than I did in DS3. I also feel adopting 3d technology will cater to more eye candy fans than 2d.
Also think of how many people you control (what's the party size) in Skyrim, DS3 or BG2. Now think again, what kind of game you want BG3 to be.
Feeling immersed in a game has little to do with its isometric perspective, but rather how good it is. That depends on a lot of things: writing, graphics, audio etc., and a 2d game can have graphics as good as a 3d game.
Didn't vote because I don't know what the hell a "3d top-down" view is. Sounds a lot like what is traditionally considered 2d to me.
Feeling immersed in a game has little to do with its isometric perspective, but rather how good it is. That depends on a lot of things: writing, graphics, audio etc., and a 2d game can have graphics as good as a 3d game.
Didn't vote because I don't know what the hell a "3d top-down" view is. Sounds a lot like what is traditionally considered 2d to me.
I'm not quite sure what the OP means either, but I'm hoping that they will make BG 3 in 3D, but with a fixed isometric viewpoint, what BG 1 and BG 2 would have been like, had the computer power been able to handle it at the time. Everything in the BG saga was made in 3D modeling software, and then rendered into 2D images, if the tech had been able to render in real time at back then, it most certainly would have been a 3D game with a fixed isometric viewpoint.
Not like NWN, I wouldn't want to fiddle with camera angles. However I'm intrigued by the idea proposed above, with the option of, say, 3 different viewpoints, all isometric but from different sides. Don't know if it will be feasible or even useful, but maybe worth exploring.
I agree that being able to zoom in close up would ruin the immersion in the game, as no 3D game I've ever played had good looking faces. Not Skyrim, nor any other game I've ever played. Animating facial features convincingly and in great detail is still out of reach for current tech. Also, it would require far too much work, for very little benifit for the actual gameplay.
@UnseeyingEye, you know that we will have control over the camera in this BG EE, do you? (we can exactly zoom for example)
Sure, and I look forward to that, but we won't be able to zoom close enough to see faces, nor fiddle with camera angles. The feature is mainly being implemented so higher resolution screens will work better, so we won't be controlling what looks like small ants. Also, it'll be a very important feature on the iPad version.
The one thing that I can't make up my mind on is having a rotating camera. There are advantages about rotating the camera but at the same time it's nice having it locked so you can entirely let go of the idea of having to rotate the camera, and just place the game.
Camera freedom will be based in the kind of map developed, we don't need to stick with the tecnologies already made for 3D maps, there's time after all until they start the BG3 project.
I dont want it to be like DA, but I don't get the hate for 3D? If it was still angled in an isometric view, I don't think 3D would hurt. Doesn't BG already have some 3D effects?
I don't know. The overall quality of Baldur's Gate is not defined solely by its graphics. On the other hand, graphics beside contributing to the overall result, were part of the gameplay, which, in turn, plays a huge role on any game - new or old.
That said, I feel that new 3D RPG's are kinda "cold", their graphics not being...intimate enough. I mean they're good and polished and all, but they don't feel like RPG's. The ME series felt more like an action game series to me. Same for Dragon Age and The Witcher (even though I loved that particular game). I feel that the pre-rendered 2D background suits the genre better. And the genre should be a party-driven adventure with rich characterization and in-party dynamics framed by the adventure plot and the challenges presented by it.
Please make this in 2D. I don't need face expressions. Because it's a fantasy game, some players should have also fantasy on their own to get their protagonists moods. I don't need to view their face to see their mood, if the story and atmosphrere is great. The Combat in 2D makes also more fun for me than in 3D. Dragon Age for example was a great disappointment for me.
Only make a lovely 2D setting with own painted backgrounds. That would also spare a lot of time in technical issues and places the focus where it belongs in a good single rpg: A good atmosphere, nice characters and a good story.
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Besides isometric views have evolved also, do not forget improved GUI which is extremely important, but we all know that most isometric games now are also 3d modeled even if it is to their detriment (some look cartoony).
If I wanted to play another elder scrolls then I would buy elder scrolls, I can't see me controlling a party member of 8 characters effeciently in first person viewpoint, maybe from some god like viewpoint that is farther out than 3rd person but I still would bet my house against it coming out right.
As far as the comment about "If I wanted to use my imagination I would read a book". That's just silly. RPG's themselves (at least good ones) are stories themselves. BG has one of the best (my personal favorite) storylines in the game. Not only was the storyline good but the way the storyline was revealed to you is very important. If you played that game through in a different viewpoint you would find the level of immersion in the story to change quite a bit, some people possibly for the better but I'm willing to bet 90% or more would find out that it would not be as entertaining.
The elder scrolls games and for that matter any 3rd/first person view game has never been able to match the storyline presence of games like BG for storylines involving a larger group of people because the viewpoint just doesn't give you the constant presence of those characters in the same way.
I'll probably never be able to explain it fully, needless to say I would be so very sad if this happened. Very sad indeed.
I have played some 3D games (and to a certain extent enjoyed them) but the lack of overview that is proved in 2D isometric always bugs me. I'm always irritated that I can't have complete control over my party and battlefield.
I say 3D isometric is more in keeping with the original intent.
I considerd the most of the maps in 2D in BG, IWD and PT as real art. I didnt see anything like this in 3D (Skyrim is another thing).
Building that kind of art in 3D would be awesome (on a big screen even Skyrim showed empty spaces when you looked over the planes from a hill for example).
Even NWN looked not bad, it seriously failed the terminus "Art". I also see that 3D getting better (and for Skyrim it works fine (i really love that game)) but it is expensive as hell.
If 3D looks the same as 2D from the same position in isoperspectiv and it would only be twice as expensive to do, then go for it. If more then twice expensive, then let it be.
In NWN and Dragon Age I always have to rotate the camera but only a few seconds later I have to rotate it again because the battlefield has changed and a wall is now blocking my view.
you simply cannot get the intricate level of Detail that for example Baldurs Gate 2 had, in 3D.
Now think again, what kind of game you want BG3 to be.
Didn't vote because I don't know what the hell a "3d top-down" view is. Sounds a lot like what is traditionally considered 2d to me.
Everything in the BG saga was made in 3D modeling software, and then rendered into 2D images, if the tech had been able to render in real time at back then, it most certainly would have been a 3D game with a fixed isometric viewpoint.
Not like NWN, I wouldn't want to fiddle with camera angles.
However I'm intrigued by the idea proposed above, with the option of, say, 3 different viewpoints, all isometric but from different sides.
Don't know if it will be feasible or even useful, but maybe worth exploring.
I agree that being able to zoom in close up would ruin the immersion in the game, as no 3D game I've ever played had good looking faces. Not Skyrim, nor any other game I've ever played.
Animating facial features convincingly and in great detail is still out of reach for current tech.
Also, it would require far too much work, for very little benifit for the actual gameplay.
The feature is mainly being implemented so higher resolution screens will work better, so we won't be controlling what looks like small ants.
Also, it'll be a very important feature on the iPad version.
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That said, I feel that new 3D RPG's are kinda "cold", their graphics not being...intimate enough. I mean they're good and polished and all, but they don't feel like RPG's. The ME series felt more like an action game series to me. Same for Dragon Age and The Witcher (even though I loved that particular game).
I feel that the pre-rendered 2D background suits the genre better. And the genre should be a party-driven adventure with rich characterization and in-party dynamics framed by the adventure plot and the challenges presented by it.
Only make a lovely 2D setting with own painted backgrounds. That would also spare a lot of time in technical issues and places the focus where it belongs in a good single rpg: A good atmosphere, nice characters and a good story.
Never change an epic game...
best regards