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All you wanted to know about the next Beamdog's project

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  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    rapsam2003 wrote: »
    Why Unreal, of all things...? *sigh*
    Because Beamdog will go broke if they continue to use game engines that lack modern software tools.

    That's a given. What I'm asking is why Unreal specifically? Unity is far more cross platform friendly and offers solid modding potential. Both things not commonly found in Unreal-based games.

    Timbo0o0o0ThacoBellkanisatha
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    Unity really isn't that much easier to mod, actually. /shrug

    spacejawsButtercheese
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    Sure is. Ridiculously so at that, thanks to the Unity Mod Manager. Even Linux and Mac users can mod Unity-based games such as Pathfinder: Kingmaker on the fly. Modding Unreal on the other hand is nothing short of a nightmare. Especially when you're not on Windows.

  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited December 2019
    Sure is. Ridiculously so at that, thanks to the Unity Mod Manager. Even Linux and Mac users can mod Unity-based games such as Pathfinder: Kingmaker on the fly. Modding Unreal on the other hand is nothing short of a nightmare. Especially when you're not on Windows.
    The sheer fact that you have to use the Unity Mod Manager means it's not "easier to mod". You need an external tool, NOT created by the game creator, therefore it's not easier to mod.

    In fact, even the Infinity Engine games aren't "easy to mod". Without the modding tools that players have created and improved over two decades, mods on those games would be few and far between. It stands as a testament to the quality and to the community that mods for some of our favorite games are still being developed even today.

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    In that case it's even easier to do, actually. Obsidian's PoE games have official mod support and were all created in Unity, for instance. Game creators are able to support modding just fine, if they desire to do so during development. Unofficial modding via the Unity Mod Manager however still is ridiculously easy from a consumer point of view. Cant't get easier than drag 'n dropping, honestly. Even NwN modding is more complicated than that. And as you know, that game had official mod support.

    My question for Beamdog still stands.

  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited December 2019
    It's NOT easier if an external program had to be created to even make modding possible! Someone had to code Unity Mod Manager.
    Obsidian's PoE games have official mod support and were all created in Unity, for instance.
    This is factually incorrect. Developing mods for the PoE games requires an external tool created by a Third Party: Unity Mod Manager.


    As for your "question", seems more like whining than a question, and we both know you aren't going to get an answer. Also, if you think modding Unreal Engine is more difficult, I'd have to say you're naive at this point: https://wiki.unrealengine.com/Modding:_Adding_mod-support_to_your_Unreal_Engine_4_project -- Amazingly, you'll find an external tool isn't necessary. Only the Unreal Engine is, and Unreal Engine is free.

    I would hazard a guess the real reason Unreal Engine was chosen had NOTHING to do with mods, and everything to do with the technical comparisons: https://www.pluralsight.com/blog/film-games/unreal-engine-4-vs-unity-game-engine-best || https://www.gamedesigning.org/engines/unity-vs-unreal/

    Post edited by rapsam2003 on
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    rapsam2003 wrote: »
    Developing mods for the PoE games requires no external tool created by a Third Party: see tutorial Modding Basic Concepts.
    Fixed your post, no need to thank me. Developers have been able to grand official mod support for their games via Assetbundles ever since Unity 5 with its first-party Editor came out. And Unity is free for individuals - making Unity Editor the perfect modding tool for developers and modders alike. It being more user-friendly for non-Windows users is also welcome in my book.

    Quite frankly, the only real advantagement Unreal has over Unity nowadays is that Epic throws their weight in money around, acting as a sponsor for game studios of all sizes. If they agree to prioritize their Epic Store over other storefronts, that is. Which would be more of a demerit in Beamdog's case, I reckon. Since this would literally be a thorn in Beamstore's side.

    The biggest downside of Unreal of course is that developers are vastly more limited in bringing their game to other platforms: Unreal 4 currently supports 12 platforms, whereas Unity as of now supports 25 platforms and is still steadily expanding. As I previously said, Unreal is tremendously lacking in cross platform versatility in comparison to its rival engine.

    MirandelThacoBellkanisatha
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited December 2019
    rapsam2003 wrote: »
    Developing mods for the PoE games requires no external tool created by a Third Party: see tutorial Modding Basic Concepts.
    Fixed your post, no need to thank me.
    That wasn't something Obsidian even had to create for modding. That's a basic feature of PoE that one of their developers is giving a tutorial on. But hey, you keep thinking you're clever. I suspect you actually don't understand half of these things, but you do you do.

    For example, Unreal uses C++, which makes it incredibly portable. The "12 vs. 25" platforms thing is just a marketing line, realistically. Developers are really only going to make games for about 5 or 6 different devices anyway.

    Of course, another big thing you keep ignoring is Unreal allows creation of fully 3D games, whereas Unity games tend to be isometric. You can make fully 3D games in both, but it's easier to do it in Unreal.

    Finally, at the end of the day, no gaming company asks first, "Can we support creation of mods?" That's extra that comes later.
    Quite frankly, the only real advantagement Unreal has over Unity nowadays is that Epic throws their weight in money around, acting as a sponsor for game studios of all sizes. If they agree to prioritize their Epic Store over other storefronts, that is. Which would be more of a demerit in Beamdog's case, I reckon. Since this would literally be a thorn in Beamstore's side.
    I highly doubt Beamdog is in a position to be picky at this point. They were beat out on the making of Baldur's Gate 3, and it's unlikely that WotC is awarding any new D&D games to Beamdog right now. Fact is, beggers can't be choosers. That's another reason to use Unreal: https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/release -- It's free, and you pay Epic Games royalties.

    Oh, and here's a nice little tidbit from the above URL that should put all your worries to rest, if your qualm actually is modding Unreal Games:
    If you wish to release a mod editor for your game, please contact your Epic account rep.
    In other words, Unreal is very aware that many companies want their Unreal Engine-based games to be moddable, and there's a process for doing that.

    Post edited by rapsam2003 on
  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,769
    spacejaws wrote: »
    Looking forward to Black Pits 3 being a 1v1 Forgotten Realms fighting game to rival Soulcalibur and Tekken.

    Edit* Just to make clear this is not a sarcastic post. I would love this lol

    I'm looking forward to the FPS where we play as a german shepard that shoots lasers out of its eyes. Beamdog!

    spacejawsmlneveseQuartzButtercheese
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,152
    BillyYank wrote: »
    spacejaws wrote: »
    Looking forward to Black Pits 3 being a 1v1 Forgotten Realms fighting game to rival Soulcalibur and Tekken.

    Edit* Just to make clear this is not a sarcastic post. I would love this lol

    I'm looking forward to the FPS where we play as a german shepard that shoots lasers out of its eyes. Beamdog!

    How did you discover the sec... I mean nahhh it wouldn't have commercial appeal. :)

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,213
    edited December 2019
    BillyYank wrote: »
    spacejaws wrote: »
    Looking forward to Black Pits 3 being a 1v1 Forgotten Realms fighting game to rival Soulcalibur and Tekken.

    Edit* Just to make clear this is not a sarcastic post. I would love this lol

    I'm looking forward to the FPS where we play as a german shepard that shoots lasers out of its eyes. Beamdog!

    Personally if we ever went the shooter route I'd love to see a new Nanosaur game.

    mlnevesetbone1
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,152
    If Beamdog ever goes the shooter route one of the characters should be Boo with a flamethrower... just saying... :)

    elminsterThacoBell
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited December 2019
    Maurvir wrote: »
    Ultimately, however, I fault WoTC for being jerks with licensing. Sure, I get the desire to not license AD&D to every Tom, Dick, and Harry; but I feel that, given the situation, they could be a bit more accommodating here. Maybe give Beamdog a second shot at a new game, based on a more obscure bit of lore, as a way of showing what they can do when they aren't hemmed in on both sides by existing games. There are tons of stories that rarely get told in this setting that would be awesome on this engine.
    Beamdog could easily have chosen to create a story using the 5th Edition ruleset and lore. Instead, they tried to make an unneeded game for AD&D2 lore that, frankly, was already complete. I don't blame WotC for Beamdog's choices. SoD didn't sell as well as WotC or Beamdog expected it to, so WotC (unsurprisingly) refused to give Beamdog a contract to make BG3. The reasons why SoD didn't sell are irrelevant. What matters is, Beamdog failed to show WotC that they could make a game and sell it well!

    At the end of the day, it's about business...

    Quartz
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,851
    edited December 2019
    Maurvir wrote: »
    It's a shame that the company was so put off by that complete BS that there will likely never be another IE based game made again. All that wonderful technology that they added in SoD, with amazing effects and improved AI - all down the toilet because knuckleheads couldn't fathom the idea of a transgender NPC.
    @Maurvir I agree with the vast majority of your post, and very much appreciate your contribution, but I will disagree that the backlash was all because of Mizhena. It certainly played a part in the trollish review-bombing that happened, yes, but even if you look at purely professional reviews... Metacritic says the average critic review for SoD is 77, compared to BGII's 95 and BG1's 91. That's a staggering difference. Age is a slight factor I'm sure, but it isn't a huge factor because while the series has always been mechanically great, its technology wasn't earth-shattering at the time. (Its size and scope was decently large for the time compared to now, I'll concede that.)

    On top of that, a gander through non-professional reviews is pretty telling as well. You have a few idiots crying about Mizhena, yeah, but there's a whole lot more people complaining about bugs and the writing as a whole. (Personally, I never encountered significant bugs, but I gotta say I find the writing varies wildly between great and awful; it's bizarre.)

  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 922
    It is, but my point remains. Beamdog felt that they needed the Baldur's Gate universe to gain traction, and they were probably right. I know I had never heard of them before, and it's likely that a stand-alone game wouldn't have made the front page anywhere.

    That said, I suspect there is still money to be made in IE based games because they can be played on nearly anything. My ancient Android tablet can play them well. Maybe Beamdog doesn't get BG3, but a steady stream of lesser known tales that can be played on everything from PCs to Switches? That seems like something profitable.

    I do agree, though, any future projects should probably skip straight to the current rule set.

    Quartz
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited December 2019
    Maurvir wrote: »
    That said, I suspect there is still money to be made in IE based games because they can be played on nearly anything. My ancient Android tablet can play them well. Maybe Beamdog doesn't get BG3, but a steady stream of lesser known tales that can be played on everything from PCs to Switches? That seems like something profitable.
    Why does the fact that Beamdog created ports of IE games for multiple platforms also mean IE games are profitable?


    To be blunt, I don't even want Beamdog to use D&D at this point. I want them to do something like what Obsidian has done, where they have their own RPG, with their own world, their own classes, their own races, etc. They need to get a Kickstarter fundraiser going, imho.

    kanisathaQuartzBlackbɨrd
  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 922
    rapsam2003 wrote: »
    Maurvir wrote: »
    That said, I suspect there is still money to be made in IE based games because they can be played on nearly anything. My ancient Android tablet can play them well. Maybe Beamdog doesn't get BG3, but a steady stream of lesser known tales that can be played on everything from PCs to Switches? That seems like something profitable.
    Why does the fact that Beamdog created ports of IE games for multiple platforms also mean IE games are profitable?


    To be blunt, I don't even want Beamdog to use D&D at this point. I want them to do something like what Obsidian has done, where they have their own RPG, with their own world, their own classes, their own races, etc. They need to get a Kickstarter fundraiser going, imho.

    To be honest, I agree with you on that one. I was just thinking about that on my way home from work - how nice it would be for Beamdog to create their own RPG where they could implement real moral ambiguity, deep and winding storylines that actually intertwine, a reputation system that tracks what your characters do, a modern AI, and game mechanics not created in the 1970's. The trick is getting people to try a completely new property, even if it's amazing.

    Now, I know IE is getting awfully old at this point, and maybe it's the wrong platform, BUT have you seen the worthless crap that is mobile gaming? The EE versions of BG are unbelievably rare in that respect, and I think a proper game, with over 100+ hours of content, would sell like hotcakes on both app stores. Which means sticking with the isometric format - since most mobile devices can't credibly handle first person perspective games yet.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    SoD was totally needed. There's a lot of blank space between BG1 and 2, and the shift has always been incredibly jarring.

    StummvonBordwehrZaghoulRedRodent
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    edited December 2019
    SoD wasn't a bad add-on. But it wasn't particularly good either. "Mixed" would be the best description for it imho. As a whole, I regard it to be similarly in quality and importance to ToB. Maybe slightly worse than that, since I was not a fan of the whole crusade plot idea. Just as I am not exactly a fan of the choosen Adventure Path of Owlcat's next cRPG: Wrath of the Righteous

    Quartz
  • spacejawsspacejaws Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 370
    edited December 2019
    To be fair to Beamdog the largest request I would see on this forum was specifically to fill that gap. It was a natural grey point in the story and people for years have wanted to know how A lead to C.

    I still love i. I feel people are way to critical on every piece of dialogue and enjoy jumping to point at the misteps when it also has some really great highs and obvious showcasing of improving talent when you look at the development of new content in BG1EE(which I enjoy but does have some rough edges, narrativly and mechanically, particularly Neeras quest for me) culminating in SoD which is leagues above.

    Would have love to have seeb where that trend could have lead within Forgotten Realms settings. Still looking forward to Beamdogs 3D Fighter tho.

    semiticgoddessThacoBellRedRodent
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Oh heck yeah. I'm a sucker for narratives that pit you against some kind of an ultimate evil. I'm really a Paladin at heart.
    Good for you. Now you finally have a reason to check out at least one of Owlcat's games. :)
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    I will never understand how someone could honestly like the BG series, but not like SoD. SoD has so many mechanical improvements over BG, without removing the BG spirit, along with some of the best npcs in the series. Are people just THAT blinded by 20 year old nostaliga?
    I don't think that's the really case, actually. Just like how there are many people liking the base games, but not felt the same way for ToB all those years ago. And the number of folks not loving that expansion isn't exactly small on this forum either. It all comes down to personal taste. Nothing more, nothing less. I for one don't have strong feelings for SoD either way: it was "okay", just that.

    Quartz
  • elmurdocelmurdoc Member Posts: 17
    For me SoD was good, in the same level of ToB, with some good news things, but my main problems was two things:

    First the ending: I really dont like to be force to a specific ending with some different flavor, like after everything we do, you`re guilty, no trials, no investigation, just runaway, that feels dumb and rush.

    Second: I understand that SoD has to be between 1 and 2, but why it has to end at the beginning of two? Why not create a story between this two games without touching the timeline?

    Trying to connect SoD with the beginning of SoA i think it was a mistake, they were less free this way, i dont know why but it really butters me.

    QuartzJuliusBorisov
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,285
    To me, the worst thing about SoD is the appearance and meddlings of the hooded man. It may seem to tie in with the sequel but has no ties to the actual SoD plot and only distracts from the storyline doing the antagonist story no justice. This also results in a forced ending that just does not work for me.
    The second worst thing is that the motives of the main antagonist is so unclear until the end that I seriously wonder why the collective could not simply let them do whatever they want.

    Both are not written as elegantly as the Sarevok saga that leaves hints all over the world but I am guessing that is due to the linearity of SoD more than any of the writing itself.

    KamigoroshiQuartz
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