Doom. British voters don't tend to like Johnson all that much, but they seem to dislike Corbyn much more. Most especially in the seats that Labour needed to win. More votes will have been cast for parties that oppose Brexit but the British electoral system will not reflect that. On the bright side Johnson may be strong enough that he can ignore some of the loonies in his party, but it will probably be a hard few years for the poor, the disabled, immigrants, and so many other minorities. There will be many struggles from here... and the question of whether future elections will also be fought with disinformation techniques that electoral laws do not restrict adequately.
Since disinformation techniques benefited the conservatives they will of course not want to restrict future disinformation.
Same thing happened in the US Republicans don't want fair elections or any restrictions on lying. They benefit from conspiracy theories and lies and ignorance.
This is a another sad day for freedom and democracy.
We told you guys not to drive the car off the cliff, but ya did anyway.... Good luck.
I don't understand how you can say this is a bad day for democracy. It's a bad day for your philosophy but the people spoke. That's what democracy is. People have the right to 'not' agree with you and it's still democracy...
It’s the disinformation part, not the ideology part that is an issue.
I’ll give a nice shiny example:
Trump said that he would build a wall along the US/Mexico border and make sure Mexico pays for it.
Awesome, people bought that line. People can agree or disagree how effective a wall be. That there is the politics of it and something that can be debated where where a majority opinion (or whatever democracy passes for where these discussions happen) wins the argument and that policy gets to be put into place.
Now if Trump said he would build a wall along the Mexican border by diverting funds allocated to the US military to build it, and diverting congresses (another elected body) approval, (the reality that happened), how many people who supported its construction would still be supporting it?
It’s these types of misinformation, these deceivements (and Brexit had it’s fair share of these when it was being voted on), that allow politicans like Trump to get what they want (a wall) regardless of the costs involved and the deception that these politicians use (my campaign promise was to build a wall, so the people who voted for me want a wall built regardless) and continue to use and point to, to get what they want regardless of the actual “will” of the people.
Doom. British voters don't tend to like Johnson all that much, but they seem to dislike Corbyn much more. Most especially in the seats that Labour needed to win. More votes will have been cast for parties that oppose Brexit but the British electoral system will not reflect that. On the bright side Johnson may be strong enough that he can ignore some of the loonies in his party, but it will probably be a hard few years for the poor, the disabled, immigrants, and so many other minorities. There will be many struggles from here... and the question of whether future elections will also be fought with disinformation techniques that electoral laws do not restrict adequately.
Since disinformation techniques benefited the conservatives they will of course not want to restrict future disinformation.
Same thing happened in the US Republicans don't want fair elections or any restrictions on lying. They benefit from conspiracy theories and lies and ignorance.
This is a another sad day for freedom and democracy.
We told you guys not to drive the car off the cliff, but ya did anyway.... Good luck.
I don't understand how you can say this is a bad day for democracy. It's a bad day for your philosophy but the people spoke. That's what democracy is. People have the right to 'not' agree with you and it's still democracy...
It’s the disinformation part, not the ideology part that is an issue.
I’ll give a nice shiny example:
Trump said that he would build a wall along the US/Mexico border and make sure Mexico pays for it.
Awesome, people bought that line. People can agree or disagree how effective a wall be. That there is the politics of it and something that can be debated where where a majority opinion (or whatever democracy passes for where these discussions happen) wins the argument and that policy gets to be put into place.
Now if Trump said he would build a wall along the Mexican border by diverting funds allocated to the US military to build it, and diverting congresses (another elected body) approval, (the reality that happened), how many people who supported its construction would still be supporting it?
It’s these types of misinformation, these deceivements (and Brexit had it’s fair share of these when it was being voted on), that allow politicans like Trump to get what they want (a wall) regardless of the costs involved and the deception that these politicians use (my campaign promise was to build a wall, so the people who voted for me want a wall built regardless) and continue to use and point to, to get what they want regardless of the actual “will” of the people.
That's only true if the deceived were unaware of the deception or even care that they were deceived. I would argue that the 'deception' just gave them an excuse to vote the way they really wanted too anyway.
There is a fundamental question about the degree to which some people know they are being lied to... and still vote for those politicians. That's one of the unnerving things for me, because if parties are not expected to fulfill their manifesto promises then one reaches the question of what the act of voting actually means, once there are fewer and fewer restrictions upon the executive. In this election people seem to have been more voting against certain things than for them. Manifestos become thinner and thinner, slogans become simpler, negative campaigning about personalities becomes dominant so there is less policy to attack. There is a little more to democracy than voting, it also needs the support of a variety of institutions that populism tends to weaken e.g. the judiciary.
That's only true if the deceived were unaware of the deception or even care that they were deceived. I would argue that the 'deception' just gave them an excuse to vote the way they really wanted too anyway.
This makes literally no sense to me at all. How can anyone defend disinformation in politics? It has, quite literally, boggled my mind.
Even in the circumstance that 100% of all people voted the way they would have had the information been 100% truthful (which, incidentally, we have anecdotal evidence that this is NOT true) - it still makes no sense as a defense of lying/misinformation. They were already apparently all going to vote that way, so why lie?
That's only true if the deceived were unaware of the deception or even care that they were deceived. I would argue that the 'deception' just gave them an excuse to vote the way they really wanted too anyway.
They were already apparently all going to vote that way, so why lie?
Simple, clean conscience. Besides, both sides stretch the truth to serve their purposes. It's just that one person in particular is not even really bothering to hide it anymore.
The Liberals are backing themselves into a 'righteousness' corner now and even further alienating the very people they used to represent by characterizing them as ignorant, and scumbags. Yeah that's how you win folks over. Good luck with that...
Doom. British voters don't tend to like Johnson all that much, but they seem to dislike Corbyn much more. Most especially in the seats that Labour needed to win. More votes will have been cast for parties that oppose Brexit but the British electoral system will not reflect that. On the bright side Johnson may be strong enough that he can ignore some of the loonies in his party, but it will probably be a hard few years for the poor, the disabled, immigrants, and so many other minorities. There will be many struggles from here... and the question of whether future elections will also be fought with disinformation techniques that electoral laws do not restrict adequately.
Since disinformation techniques benefited the conservatives they will of course not want to restrict future disinformation.
Same thing happened in the US Republicans don't want fair elections or any restrictions on lying. They benefit from conspiracy theories and lies and ignorance.
This is a another sad day for freedom and democracy.
We told you guys not to drive the car off the cliff, but ya did anyway.... Good luck.
I don't understand how you can say this is a bad day for democracy. It's a bad day for your philosophy but the people spoke. That's what democracy is. People have the right to 'not' agree with you and it's still democracy...
By voting this way they are voting against their interests, hence they will lose freedom and democracy.
And healthcare.
For what? The freedom to be lied to even more brazenly. Same thing conservative elites want all over the world - corporate greed.
I mean, take this for what it's worth, but the results of this are clear: one side was lying about nearly everything, and one side was telling the truth. The only conclusion to draw from that is that it is more advantageous to lie, and that lying ALWAYS benefits the person who is lying. Mark Twain knew this over a hundred years ago. There isn't any way to combat total bad-faith actors. The only thing that can stop them is when things literally start to fall apart around them. This is also reason 5,722 of why Facebook has turned into a absolute fucking disaster of epic proportions. Massive amounts of people get their news EXCLUSIVELY from a social media site that has absolutely no standards whatsoever, whose head has said flat-out he has no problem with people spreading purposeful lies on his platform.
So, I mean, don't tell me people aren't dumb and ignorant in general. Without going into detail, I see it on a mass scale on a daily basis. I don't know how some people even manage to tie their own shoes. I'm more and more shocked the world even functions at all. I can barely stand in a grocery store checkout line with more than 5 people in it without shaking my head at something that is said:
That's only true if the deceived were unaware of the deception or even care that they were deceived. I would argue that the 'deception' just gave them an excuse to vote the way they really wanted too anyway.
This makes literally no sense to me at all. How can anyone defend disinformation in politics? It has, quite literally, boggled my mind.
Even in the circumstance that 100% of all people voted the way they would have had the information been 100% truthful (which, incidentally, we have anecdotal evidence that this is NOT true) - it still makes no sense as a defense of lying/misinformation. They were already apparently all going to vote that way, so why lie?
Because these people have no problem stomping on others to get their way. They don't care about Democracy, truth, or the right thing. Only what they want which is whatever lie their strongman tells them they should be fighting for.
This is how Jews ended up in gas chambers. Conservative Christians went along with it because this attitude: "I don't care, I'm getting what I want".
Simple, clean conscience. Besides, both sides stretch the truth to serve their purposes. It's just that one person in particular is not even really bothering to hide it anymore.
The Liberals are backing themselves into a 'righteousness' corner now and even further alienating the very people they used to represent by characterizing them as ignorant, and scumbags. Yeah that's how you win folks over. Good luck with that...
Oh no. You've completely and utterly misunderstood me. Please look at my post, I did not (in any way, shape or fashion) suggest who is lying or why they're lying. So any argument that "Both sides do it!" is completely inapplicable. I havent made this about liberals vs conservatives. I'm 100% against disinformation in all politics, on any side. Your arguments seem to say "Eh. Why not?" - which is... unbelievable? You dont mind be totally lied to, so long as you were already going to vote for whomever you vote for?
Who *wants* to be lied to?
Clean conscience doesnt make sense. Do people who lie have a clean conscience? The opposite is true.
Also, for the record, any argument that begins with "Well, both sides do it" is pretty sophomoric. Very "Mom, he hit me first!"
That's only true if the deceived were unaware of the deception or even care that they were deceived. I would argue that the 'deception' just gave them an excuse to vote the way they really wanted too anyway.
This makes literally no sense to me at all. How can anyone defend disinformation in politics? It has, quite literally, boggled my mind.
Even in the circumstance that 100% of all people voted the way they would have had the information been 100% truthful (which, incidentally, we have anecdotal evidence that this is NOT true) - it still makes no sense as a defense of lying/misinformation. They were already apparently all going to vote that way, so why lie?
Because these people have no problem stomping on others to get their way. They don't care about Democracy, truth, or the right thing. Only what they want which is whatever lie their strongman tells them they should be fighting for.
This is how Jews ended up in gas chambers. Conservative Christians went along with it because this attitude: "I don't care, I'm getting what I want".
What? That is total bullshit. Conservative Christians got what, exactly? They bought into protection from Communism (which was just as aggressive and violent as the Nazis in 1920's and 30's Germany) and that's it. They didn't want to kill Jews then anymore than they do now...
What's going to be interesting is because of the results in Scotland, they are almost certainly going to want to leave the UK, which they will be denied. Don't try square your head around the glaring hypocrisy of being in favor of Brexit but NOT being in favor of Scotland being able to strike out on their own because of it. I've come to realize the hypocrisy is the main feature of modern western conservatism. It's all about being able to act one way while insisting other people aren't allowed to.
That's only true if the deceived were unaware of the deception or even care that they were deceived. I would argue that the 'deception' just gave them an excuse to vote the way they really wanted too anyway.
This makes literally no sense to me at all. How can anyone defend disinformation in politics? It has, quite literally, boggled my mind.
Even in the circumstance that 100% of all people voted the way they would have had the information been 100% truthful (which, incidentally, we have anecdotal evidence that this is NOT true) - it still makes no sense as a defense of lying/misinformation. They were already apparently all going to vote that way, so why lie?
Because these people have no problem stomping on others to get their way. They don't care about Democracy, truth, or the right thing. Only what they want which is whatever lie their strongman tells them they should be fighting for.
This is how Jews ended up in gas chambers. Conservative Christians went along with it because this attitude: "I don't care, I'm getting what I want".
What? That is total bullshit. Conservative Christians got what, exactly? They bought into protection from Communism (which was just as aggressive and violent as the Nazis in 1920's and 30's Germany) and that's it. They didn't want to kill Jews then anymore than they do now...
Hitler told them they were being invaded by Jews and gypsies and promised to make Germany great again. Conservatives loved that strength and as long as they got what they wanted turned a blind eye as they lost their democracy. They thought Hitler was lying but everybody lies so it's okay.
A full on pardon for Micah Schoettle, 41, who was convicted last year of raping a 9-year-old child in Kenton County and sentenced to 23 years in prison,
And
Bevin pardons a KY man convicted of beheading a woman and stuffing her in a barrel
Kentucky voters, *THIS* is what your elected trump republicans believe justice should look like. You like that?
Leave your kids at home when traveling through or to Kentucky (or Alabama for that matter).
There's also the wealthy family of a convicted murderer donated to Nevin's campaign and even threw him campaign fundraisers (obvious quid pro quo) in order to get a different violent felon released. I think this is perhaps the core point here: Matt Bevin isn't just a sore loser, risking people's lives because he's petty; he's also getting paid to do it by wealthy Republicans.
That's only true if the deceived were unaware of the deception or even care that they were deceived. I would argue that the 'deception' just gave them an excuse to vote the way they really wanted too anyway.
This makes literally no sense to me at all. How can anyone defend disinformation in politics? It has, quite literally, boggled my mind.
Even in the circumstance that 100% of all people voted the way they would have had the information been 100% truthful (which, incidentally, we have anecdotal evidence that this is NOT true) - it still makes no sense as a defense of lying/misinformation. They were already apparently all going to vote that way, so why lie?
Because these people have no problem stomping on others to get their way. They don't care about Democracy, truth, or the right thing. Only what they want which is whatever lie their strongman tells them they should be fighting for.
This is how Jews ended up in gas chambers. Conservative Christians went along with it because this attitude: "I don't care, I'm getting what I want".
What? That is total bullshit. Conservative Christians got what, exactly? They bought into protection from Communism (which was just as aggressive and violent as the Nazis in 1920's and 30's Germany) and that's it. They didn't want to kill Jews then anymore than they do now...
Hitler told them they were being invaded by Jews and gypsies and promised to make Germany great again. Conservatives loved that strength and as long as they got what they wanted turned a blind eye as they lost their democracy. They thought Hitler was lying but everybody lies so it's okay.
Yep, that about sums it up. Sure does fit right in there with your worldview.
How convenient that there's no mention of the socialists/communists and their violence as contributing factors nor the abject failure of the Weimar Republic, nor the idiotic shortsightedness of the vengeful victors of WW1 and the Versailles Treaty. It's all about Conservative Christains and their desire to make a profit and kill people. How did I not see that before???
That's only true if the deceived were unaware of the deception or even care that they were deceived. I would argue that the 'deception' just gave them an excuse to vote the way they really wanted too anyway.
This makes literally no sense to me at all. How can anyone defend disinformation in politics? It has, quite literally, boggled my mind.
Even in the circumstance that 100% of all people voted the way they would have had the information been 100% truthful (which, incidentally, we have anecdotal evidence that this is NOT true) - it still makes no sense as a defense of lying/misinformation. They were already apparently all going to vote that way, so why lie?
Because these people have no problem stomping on others to get their way. They don't care about Democracy, truth, or the right thing. Only what they want which is whatever lie their strongman tells them they should be fighting for.
This is how Jews ended up in gas chambers. Conservative Christians went along with it because this attitude: "I don't care, I'm getting what I want".
What? That is total bullshit. Conservative Christians got what, exactly? They bought into protection from Communism (which was just as aggressive and violent as the Nazis in 1920's and 30's Germany) and that's it. They didn't want to kill Jews then anymore than they do now...
Hitler told them they were being invaded by Jews and gypsies and promised to make Germany great again. Conservatives loved that strength and as long as they got what they wanted turned a blind eye as they lost their democracy. They thought Hitler was lying but everybody lies so it's okay.
Yep, that about sums it up. Sure does fit right in there with your worldview.
How convenient that there's no mention of the socialists/communists and their violence as contributing factors nor the abject failure of the Weimar Republic, nor the idiotic shortsightedness of the vengeful victors of WW1 and the Versailles Treaty. It's all about Conservative Christains and their desire to make a profit and kill people. How did I not see that before???
Well maybe you've got blinders on, that's why you can't see it. I didn't say they wanted to kill people, sure some did but most just turned a blind eye to it because it wasn't affecting them personally.
Hey look Trump thinks he's going to run for a third term in 2024 and has name for Republican Governor Mike Huckabee, father of former White House propagandist Sarah Huckabee Sanders, to his 2024 team.
That's only true if the deceived were unaware of the deception or even care that they were deceived. I would argue that the 'deception' just gave them an excuse to vote the way they really wanted too anyway.
This makes literally no sense to me at all. How can anyone defend disinformation in politics? It has, quite literally, boggled my mind.
Even in the circumstance that 100% of all people voted the way they would have had the information been 100% truthful (which, incidentally, we have anecdotal evidence that this is NOT true) - it still makes no sense as a defense of lying/misinformation. They were already apparently all going to vote that way, so why lie?
Because these people have no problem stomping on others to get their way. They don't care about Democracy, truth, or the right thing. Only what they want which is whatever lie their strongman tells them they should be fighting for.
This is how Jews ended up in gas chambers. Conservative Christians went along with it because this attitude: "I don't care, I'm getting what I want".
What? That is total bullshit. Conservative Christians got what, exactly? They bought into protection from Communism (which was just as aggressive and violent as the Nazis in 1920's and 30's Germany) and that's it. They didn't want to kill Jews then anymore than they do now...
Hitler told them they were being invaded by Jews and gypsies and promised to make Germany great again. Conservatives loved that strength and as long as they got what they wanted turned a blind eye as they lost their democracy. They thought Hitler was lying but everybody lies so it's okay.
Yep, that about sums it up. Sure does fit right in there with your worldview.
How convenient that there's no mention of the socialists/communists and their violence as contributing factors nor the abject failure of the Weimar Republic, nor the idiotic shortsightedness of the vengeful victors of WW1 and the Versailles Treaty. It's all about Conservative Christains and their desire to make a profit and kill people. How did I not see that before???
Well maybe you've got blinders on, that's why you can't see it. I didn't say they wanted to kill people, sure some did but most just turned a blind eye to it because it wasn't affecting them personally.
Hey look Trump thinks he's going to run for a third term in 2024 and has name for Republican Governor Mike Huckabee, father of former White House propagandist Sarah Huckabee Sanders, to his 2024 team.
This is all good too right. Who cares, it's my team right.
I'm just saying there were far more factors than you seem to think. The comparison of Trump to Hitler is ludicrous and diminishes your arguments to all but those who already agree with you. I know you don't see it so I'm wasting my breath...
"There is no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialism - by vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide."
Communist Party- Stalin.
National Socialist German Workers' Party- Hitler.
Let's play 'Who can spot the exact same fucking thing but people are just too proud to see it' game.
That's only true if the deceived were unaware of the deception or even care that they were deceived. I would argue that the 'deception' just gave them an excuse to vote the way they really wanted too anyway.
This makes literally no sense to me at all. How can anyone defend disinformation in politics? It has, quite literally, boggled my mind.
Even in the circumstance that 100% of all people voted the way they would have had the information been 100% truthful (which, incidentally, we have anecdotal evidence that this is NOT true) - it still makes no sense as a defense of lying/misinformation. They were already apparently all going to vote that way, so why lie?
Because these people have no problem stomping on others to get their way. They don't care about Democracy, truth, or the right thing. Only what they want which is whatever lie their strongman tells them they should be fighting for.
This is how Jews ended up in gas chambers. Conservative Christians went along with it because this attitude: "I don't care, I'm getting what I want".
What? That is total bullshit. Conservative Christians got what, exactly? They bought into protection from Communism (which was just as aggressive and violent as the Nazis in 1920's and 30's Germany) and that's it. They didn't want to kill Jews then anymore than they do now...
Hitler told them they were being invaded by Jews and gypsies and promised to make Germany great again. Conservatives loved that strength and as long as they got what they wanted turned a blind eye as they lost their democracy. They thought Hitler was lying but everybody lies so it's okay.
Yep, that about sums it up. Sure does fit right in there with your worldview.
How convenient that there's no mention of the socialists/communists and their violence as contributing factors nor the abject failure of the Weimar Republic, nor the idiotic shortsightedness of the vengeful victors of WW1 and the Versailles Treaty. It's all about Conservative Christains and their desire to make a profit and kill people. How did I not see that before???
Well maybe you've got blinders on, that's why you can't see it. I didn't say they wanted to kill people, sure some did but most just turned a blind eye to it because it wasn't affecting them personally.
Hey look Trump thinks he's going to run for a third term in 2024 and has name for Republican Governor Mike Huckabee, father of former White House propagandist Sarah Huckabee Sanders, to his 2024 team.
This is all good too right. Who cares, it's my team right.
I'm just saying there were far more factors than you seem to think. The comparison of Trump to Hitler is ludicrous and diminishes your arguments to all but those who already agree with you. I know you don't see it so I'm wasting my breath...
Literally nothing I could say would change your mind and that's my point. Trumpism is a cult exactly like Nazis were in a cult.
And all my points were 100% accurate. The settlement for WW1 was unfair and used by Hitler as an issue to overcome to make Germany great again before the crippling treaty of Versailles and its' aftermath.
Trump wants to run for a third term and people are farting around as Democracy is dying.
So Trump can win without an election? Democracy is dying because somebody you don't agree with 'might' try for a 3rd term before he even wins a second? I'm not seeing it. What I am seeing is total desperation by a party who's popularity seems to be a lot less than we were led to believe. It can't possibly be that at least some of their policies are unpopular, it has to be that crude, ignorant people are being deceived. That way they don't have to examine themselves at all...
Trump said that he would build a wall along the US/Mexico border and make sure Mexico pays for it.
Awesome, people bought that line. People can agree or disagree how effective a wall be. That there is the politics of it and something that can be debated where where a majority opinion (or whatever democracy passes for where these discussions happen) wins the argument and that policy gets to be put into place.
Now if Trump said he would build a wall along the Mexican border by diverting funds allocated to the US military to build it, and diverting congresses (another elected body) approval, (the reality that happened), how many people who supported its construction would still be supporting it?
It’s these types of misinformation, these deceivements (and Brexit had it’s fair share of these when it was being voted on), that allow politicans like Trump to get what they want (a wall) regardless of the costs involved and the deception that these politicians use (my campaign promise was to build a wall, so the people who voted for me want a wall built regardless) and continue to use and point to, to get what they want regardless of the actual “will” of the people.
That sounds like a typical election promise all politicians make, and then fail to actually deliver. People are naturally idiots unless proven otherwise, so it's hard to blame them for believing things will go smoothly.
But I love how it always counts as earnest miscalculation when done by a candidate you support, and as deceitful misinformation when done by someone you oppose
Trump wants to run for a third term and people are farting around as Democracy is dying.
So Trump can win without an election? Democracy is dying because somebody you don't agree with 'might' try for a 3rd term before he even wins a second? I'm not seeing it...
And you don't see your sides assaults on freedom - the press, religion, the military, basic facts and reality, democracy, voting rights. The unending corruption and self dealing.
The Democratic party gets the most votes. It is literally more popular.
That's only true if the deceived were unaware of the deception or even care that they were deceived. I would argue that the 'deception' just gave them an excuse to vote the way they really wanted too anyway.
This makes literally no sense to me at all. How can anyone defend disinformation in politics? It has, quite literally, boggled my mind.
Even in the circumstance that 100% of all people voted the way they would have had the information been 100% truthful (which, incidentally, we have anecdotal evidence that this is NOT true) - it still makes no sense as a defense of lying/misinformation. They were already apparently all going to vote that way, so why lie?
Because these people have no problem stomping on others to get their way. They don't care about Democracy, truth, or the right thing. Only what they want which is whatever lie their strongman tells them they should be fighting for.
This is how Jews ended up in gas chambers. Conservative Christians went along with it because this attitude: "I don't care, I'm getting what I want".
What? That is total bullshit. Conservative Christians got what, exactly? They bought into protection from Communism (which was just as aggressive and violent as the Nazis in 1920's and 30's Germany) and that's it. They didn't want to kill Jews then anymore than they do now...
Hitler told them they were being invaded by Jews and gypsies and promised to make Germany great again. Conservatives loved that strength and as long as they got what they wanted turned a blind eye as they lost their democracy. They thought Hitler was lying but everybody lies so it's okay.
Yep, that about sums it up. Sure does fit right in there with your worldview.
How convenient that there's no mention of the socialists/communists and their violence as contributing factors nor the abject failure of the Weimar Republic, nor the idiotic shortsightedness of the vengeful victors of WW1 and the Versailles Treaty. It's all about Conservative Christains and their desire to make a profit and kill people. How did I not see that before???
Well maybe you've got blinders on, that's why you can't see it. I didn't say they wanted to kill people, sure some did but most just turned a blind eye to it because it wasn't affecting them personally.
Hey look Trump thinks he's going to run for a third term in 2024 and has name for Republican Governor Mike Huckabee, father of former White House propagandist Sarah Huckabee Sanders, to his 2024 team.
This is all good too right. Who cares, it's my team right.
I'm just saying there were far more factors than you seem to think. The comparison of Trump to Hitler is ludicrous and diminishes your arguments to all but those who already agree with you. I know you don't see it so I'm wasting my breath...
Literally nothing I could say would change your mind and that's my point. Trumpism is a cult exactly like Nazis were in a cult.
And all my points were 100% accurate. The settlement for WW1 was unfair and used by Hitler as an issue to overcome to make Germany great again before the crippling treaty of Versailles and its' aftermath.
The situation in Germany of the 1930's is absolutely nothing like 2019 America. Name one thing that's similar other than your hatred of Trump and the Republican party. We have it far too good in this country to reach the depths of despair and desperation that led to Hitler.
As an aside, I'm still not convinced that Trump will win in 2020 but it's really disheartening that it now seems like he has a chance. I put that directly on the Democratic Party overestimating the significance of winning one partial branch of the government. A month ago I was all for impeaching Trump but I really think this whole process was completely bungled and now I wish it had never happened.
Trump wants to run for a third term and people are farting around as Democracy is dying.
So Trump can win without an election? Democracy is dying because somebody you don't agree with 'might' try for a 3rd term before he even wins a second? I'm not seeing it...
And you don't see your sides assaults on freedom - the press, religion, the military, basic facts and reality, democracy, voting rights. The unending corruption and self dealing.
The Democratic party gets the most votes. It is literally more popular.
I see it. I'm not blind. I also see a very ineffective way of combating it that's just entrenching people. Pelosi was outplayed by her own party zealots who wanted impeachment. I think it was a very bad move but I'm not sure she had a choice because of our shitty two party dynamic. We're all being led by the noisy, rigid, uncompromising extremists and it's getting us nowhere.
. We're all being led by the noisy, rigid, uncompromising extremists and it's getting us nowhere.
And that's how Nazis, Communists, Jihadists and Antifas and Alt-righters are born. The rest of us are just along for the ride, till we get sick of them.
Trump wants to run for a third term and people are farting around as Democracy is dying.
So Trump can win without an election? Democracy is dying because somebody you don't agree with 'might' try for a 3rd term before he even wins a second? I'm not seeing it...
And you don't see your sides assaults on freedom - the press, religion, the military, basic facts and reality, democracy, voting rights. The unending corruption and self dealing.
The Democratic party gets the most votes. It is literally more popular.
I see it. I'm not blind. I also see a very ineffective way of combating it that's just entrenching people. Pelosi was outplayed by her own party zealots who wanted impeachment. I think it was a very bad move but I'm not sure she had a choice because of our shitty two party dynamic. We're all being led by the noisy, rigid, uncompromising extremists and it's getting us nowhere.
Right, because I'm sure you and every other conservative would have thought it was hunky dory if Barack Obama, in the Summer of 2015, was caught withholding money approved by Congress to go to an ally, but held it up until he was assured there would be an announcement of an investigation of Mitt Romney's son. Then disappeared the transcript of said phone call into a super-secret server never to be seen again, and then flat-out REFUSED to produce witnesses and documents to Congress.
Fine. Let's make this the new normal. Everything is fair game. No rules whatsoever. There is literally nothing anything anyone can do that is out of bounds. Except we all KNOW the moment the tables turned, you and everyone else on that side of the aisle would immediately flip your position. I swear to god, if Nixon was President now instead of 1974, Watergate would have been a fart in the wind.
You seem to be of this belief that since you ASSUME everyone is equally corrupt, you seem to somehow appreciate someone who actually IS that corrupt and admits it is somehow novel or putting themselves above the fray. Which is sort of like saying shooting someone in the middle of an Arby's at lunchtime when the restaurant is full is more pure and noble than strangling someone in an alley and hiding their body in the trunk. Both are murder, yet somehow admitting to it is some sort of inoculation from the consequences.
The reason there isn't any movement or news on impeachment is because Trump already fucking admitted to exactly what he is accused of in the truncated transcript they DID release. The argument isn't that it didn't happen, the argument from the right is that it is perfectly fine to do ANYTHING because "fuck those liberals". As long as a Democrat or Progressive somewhere is upset, then something has been accomplished.
Your solution is to let it go to the election. That is the damn point. He was trying to MATERIALLY INFLUENCE the next election with taxpayer money by blackmailing a foreign government with OUR money to secure HIS reelection all while ostensibly subjecting Joe Biden's son, an American citizen, to a legal situation in a country that does NOT offer the protections afforded to American citizens under our constitution. Never mind the contempt of Congress or the 10 instances of blatant obstruction in the Mueller report, or the fact that he is a walking conflict of interest taking bribes at every one of his properties around the globe. The whole POINT of him trying to force Ukraine to investigate Biden was to make the 2020 election not fair and tilted in his favor, again, using MY and everyone else's money as the payoff in a bribery scam.
Comments
It’s the disinformation part, not the ideology part that is an issue.
I’ll give a nice shiny example:
Trump said that he would build a wall along the US/Mexico border and make sure Mexico pays for it.
Awesome, people bought that line. People can agree or disagree how effective a wall be. That there is the politics of it and something that can be debated where where a majority opinion (or whatever democracy passes for where these discussions happen) wins the argument and that policy gets to be put into place.
Now if Trump said he would build a wall along the Mexican border by diverting funds allocated to the US military to build it, and diverting congresses (another elected body) approval, (the reality that happened), how many people who supported its construction would still be supporting it?
It’s these types of misinformation, these deceivements (and Brexit had it’s fair share of these when it was being voted on), that allow politicans like Trump to get what they want (a wall) regardless of the costs involved and the deception that these politicians use (my campaign promise was to build a wall, so the people who voted for me want a wall built regardless) and continue to use and point to, to get what they want regardless of the actual “will” of the people.
That's only true if the deceived were unaware of the deception or even care that they were deceived. I would argue that the 'deception' just gave them an excuse to vote the way they really wanted too anyway.
This makes literally no sense to me at all. How can anyone defend disinformation in politics? It has, quite literally, boggled my mind.
Even in the circumstance that 100% of all people voted the way they would have had the information been 100% truthful (which, incidentally, we have anecdotal evidence that this is NOT true) - it still makes no sense as a defense of lying/misinformation. They were already apparently all going to vote that way, so why lie?
Simple, clean conscience. Besides, both sides stretch the truth to serve their purposes. It's just that one person in particular is not even really bothering to hide it anymore.
The Liberals are backing themselves into a 'righteousness' corner now and even further alienating the very people they used to represent by characterizing them as ignorant, and scumbags. Yeah that's how you win folks over. Good luck with that...
By voting this way they are voting against their interests, hence they will lose freedom and democracy.
And healthcare.
For what? The freedom to be lied to even more brazenly. Same thing conservative elites want all over the world - corporate greed.
So, I mean, don't tell me people aren't dumb and ignorant in general. Without going into detail, I see it on a mass scale on a daily basis. I don't know how some people even manage to tie their own shoes. I'm more and more shocked the world even functions at all. I can barely stand in a grocery store checkout line with more than 5 people in it without shaking my head at something that is said:
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/
Because these people have no problem stomping on others to get their way. They don't care about Democracy, truth, or the right thing. Only what they want which is whatever lie their strongman tells them they should be fighting for.
This is how Jews ended up in gas chambers. Conservative Christians went along with it because this attitude: "I don't care, I'm getting what I want".
Oh no. You've completely and utterly misunderstood me. Please look at my post, I did not (in any way, shape or fashion) suggest who is lying or why they're lying. So any argument that "Both sides do it!" is completely inapplicable. I havent made this about liberals vs conservatives. I'm 100% against disinformation in all politics, on any side. Your arguments seem to say "Eh. Why not?" - which is... unbelievable? You dont mind be totally lied to, so long as you were already going to vote for whomever you vote for?
Who *wants* to be lied to?
Clean conscience doesnt make sense. Do people who lie have a clean conscience? The opposite is true.
Also, for the record, any argument that begins with "Well, both sides do it" is pretty sophomoric. Very "Mom, he hit me first!"
What? That is total bullshit. Conservative Christians got what, exactly? They bought into protection from Communism (which was just as aggressive and violent as the Nazis in 1920's and 30's Germany) and that's it. They didn't want to kill Jews then anymore than they do now...
Hitler told them they were being invaded by Jews and gypsies and promised to make Germany great again. Conservatives loved that strength and as long as they got what they wanted turned a blind eye as they lost their democracy. They thought Hitler was lying but everybody lies so it's okay.
Among them
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2019/12/12/bevin-pardons-man-convicted-raping-nky-9-year-old-calls-trial-sloppy/4407249002/
A full on pardon for Micah Schoettle, 41, who was convicted last year of raping a 9-year-old child in Kenton County and sentenced to 23 years in prison,
And
Bevin pardons a KY man convicted of beheading a woman and stuffing her in a barrel
https://www.kentucky.com/news/politics-government/article238320918.html
Kentucky voters, *THIS* is what your elected trump republicans believe justice should look like. You like that?
Leave your kids at home when traveling through or to Kentucky (or Alabama for that matter).
There's also the wealthy family of a convicted murderer donated to Nevin's campaign and even threw him campaign fundraisers (obvious quid pro quo) in order to get a different violent felon released. I think this is perhaps the core point here: Matt Bevin isn't just a sore loser, risking people's lives because he's petty; he's also getting paid to do it by wealthy Republicans.
https://www.newsweek.com/outgoing-kentucky-governor-pardons-convicted-killer-family-donated-1476894
Yep, that about sums it up. Sure does fit right in there with your worldview.
How convenient that there's no mention of the socialists/communists and their violence as contributing factors nor the abject failure of the Weimar Republic, nor the idiotic shortsightedness of the vengeful victors of WW1 and the Versailles Treaty. It's all about Conservative Christains and their desire to make a profit and kill people. How did I not see that before???
Well maybe you've got blinders on, that's why you can't see it. I didn't say they wanted to kill people, sure some did but most just turned a blind eye to it because it wasn't affecting them personally.
Hey look Trump thinks he's going to run for a third term in 2024 and has name for Republican Governor Mike Huckabee, father of former White House propagandist Sarah Huckabee Sanders, to his 2024 team.
This is all good too right. Who cares, it's my team right.
I'm just saying there were far more factors than you seem to think. The comparison of Trump to Hitler is ludicrous and diminishes your arguments to all but those who already agree with you. I know you don't see it so I'm wasting my breath...
Communist Party- Stalin.
National Socialist German Workers' Party- Hitler.
Let's play 'Who can spot the exact same fucking thing but people are just too proud to see it' game.
Literally nothing I could say would change your mind and that's my point. Trumpism is a cult exactly like Nazis were in a cult.
And all my points were 100% accurate. The settlement for WW1 was unfair and used by Hitler as an issue to overcome to make Germany great again before the crippling treaty of Versailles and its' aftermath.
So Trump can win without an election? Democracy is dying because somebody you don't agree with 'might' try for a 3rd term before he even wins a second? I'm not seeing it. What I am seeing is total desperation by a party who's popularity seems to be a lot less than we were led to believe. It can't possibly be that at least some of their policies are unpopular, it has to be that crude, ignorant people are being deceived. That way they don't have to examine themselves at all...
But I love how it always counts as earnest miscalculation when done by a candidate you support, and as deceitful misinformation when done by someone you oppose
And you don't see your sides assaults on freedom - the press, religion, the military, basic facts and reality, democracy, voting rights. The unending corruption and self dealing.
The Democratic party gets the most votes. It is literally more popular.
The situation in Germany of the 1930's is absolutely nothing like 2019 America. Name one thing that's similar other than your hatred of Trump and the Republican party. We have it far too good in this country to reach the depths of despair and desperation that led to Hitler.
As an aside, I'm still not convinced that Trump will win in 2020 but it's really disheartening that it now seems like he has a chance. I put that directly on the Democratic Party overestimating the significance of winning one partial branch of the government. A month ago I was all for impeaching Trump but I really think this whole process was completely bungled and now I wish it had never happened.
Trump will win again, He is the chosen one.
I see it. I'm not blind. I also see a very ineffective way of combating it that's just entrenching people. Pelosi was outplayed by her own party zealots who wanted impeachment. I think it was a very bad move but I'm not sure she had a choice because of our shitty two party dynamic. We're all being led by the noisy, rigid, uncompromising extremists and it's getting us nowhere.
And that's how Nazis, Communists, Jihadists and Antifas and Alt-righters are born. The rest of us are just along for the ride, till we get sick of them.
Ugghhh, you sound like my Dad!
Personally, I thought the Messiah would have better hair...
Right, because I'm sure you and every other conservative would have thought it was hunky dory if Barack Obama, in the Summer of 2015, was caught withholding money approved by Congress to go to an ally, but held it up until he was assured there would be an announcement of an investigation of Mitt Romney's son. Then disappeared the transcript of said phone call into a super-secret server never to be seen again, and then flat-out REFUSED to produce witnesses and documents to Congress.
Fine. Let's make this the new normal. Everything is fair game. No rules whatsoever. There is literally nothing anything anyone can do that is out of bounds. Except we all KNOW the moment the tables turned, you and everyone else on that side of the aisle would immediately flip your position. I swear to god, if Nixon was President now instead of 1974, Watergate would have been a fart in the wind.
You seem to be of this belief that since you ASSUME everyone is equally corrupt, you seem to somehow appreciate someone who actually IS that corrupt and admits it is somehow novel or putting themselves above the fray. Which is sort of like saying shooting someone in the middle of an Arby's at lunchtime when the restaurant is full is more pure and noble than strangling someone in an alley and hiding their body in the trunk. Both are murder, yet somehow admitting to it is some sort of inoculation from the consequences.
The reason there isn't any movement or news on impeachment is because Trump already fucking admitted to exactly what he is accused of in the truncated transcript they DID release. The argument isn't that it didn't happen, the argument from the right is that it is perfectly fine to do ANYTHING because "fuck those liberals". As long as a Democrat or Progressive somewhere is upset, then something has been accomplished.
Your solution is to let it go to the election. That is the damn point. He was trying to MATERIALLY INFLUENCE the next election with taxpayer money by blackmailing a foreign government with OUR money to secure HIS reelection all while ostensibly subjecting Joe Biden's son, an American citizen, to a legal situation in a country that does NOT offer the protections afforded to American citizens under our constitution. Never mind the contempt of Congress or the 10 instances of blatant obstruction in the Mueller report, or the fact that he is a walking conflict of interest taking bribes at every one of his properties around the globe. The whole POINT of him trying to force Ukraine to investigate Biden was to make the 2020 election not fair and tilted in his favor, again, using MY and everyone else's money as the payoff in a bribery scam.
The middle of the road is filled with nothing but the color yellow and road-kill.