Very conflicted on the primaries being held today. What happened in Ohio (the governor cancelling it despite the Supreme Court saying no) is a possible precedent for November. But everyone MUST remember this fact. Barring an election, the incumbent does not just get to hold office in perpetuity. Trump's authority without another election behind him ends on January 20, 2021 at noon. He is, with no question, completely without power at that point.
Pretty sure there will be questions on January 20, 2021 at noon if he decides he's not going to do the right thing.
Biden is set to win all of the contests being held today. Ohio postponed, but based on all available data - would have also been a pretty easy win for Biden. Florida is an absolute landslide.
The contest is over. Sanders has lost. I think he should bow out for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is related to COVID. I also believe that the longer he stays in the running and gets run over by Biden, the more of a disservice he is doing progressives.
If Biden gets the idea that he doesnt need progressives in his coalition, he'll tack away from courting their vote through policy changes. Furthermore - in order to continue to strike a contrast with Sanders, Biden will take moderate positions. Some Sanders attacks will only entrench Biden in the moderate position, rather than pull him to the left.
Sanders from this point forward should proceed with 2 objects in mind: Helping to ensure the progressive policies are in part of the Biden platform, and helping to ensure that Trump doesnt win reelection.
Disagree. Biden is and has always been a moderate. He's a Republican.
Now, he's just blatantly lying now about his past record. And for some reason this approach is working? Not sure why people are blindly voting for this guy. Fuck Biden. Bernie's still the best candidate and should not bow out.
By staying in he's got a couple concessions already hasn't he? Biden adopted Warren's plan for student loans right? Biden has a terrible track record constantly says dumb stuff and just handing him the nomination is dumb. He should not be the nominee. Why should he be the nominee? He's awful. "People like him". Who? Why? He's nothing.
The Biden is a republican argument is and always has been a facile one. Moderate does not make him a republican. This argument has and continues to cost Bernie Bro’s their credibility. This argument is the same as when conservatives tried to say Ibama was a socialist.
Biden wasn’t explicitly anti single payer until the debate. So much for only pulling him to the left.
Isn’t it weird how Warren dropped out, and it’s her plan he is adopting?
My aunt runs a hair salon in the smallest of small towns. She has been ordered to shut down for the rest of the month. She sent me a text this morning. They're comfortably middle-class. She sounds terrified about the financial implications. I don't really know what to tell her. The financial packages that are going to have to be passed are going to be the bare minimum needed for people to survive. We may be looking at 20-35% unemployment. That's not a recession, that's a depression. This isn't a drill.
As for corporate bailouts, as has been said, citizens are constantly told to save for emergencies, otherwise they are irresponsible. But apparently Delta and Boeing aren't required to have liquid assests that extend beyond one week, and they need tens of billions of dollars. This entire thing is a house of cards. It's not real. This virus is revealing nearly everything about American society is bullshit.
I heard they're going to be getting emergency money to everybody a'la what Yang proposed. The number is even the same, ~ $1k/month. Subsistence level but not insignificant, especially with rent, mortgage and tax payments on hold. I wouldn't be surprised if car payments are put off for a while too. Hang in there!
The Biden is a republican argument is and always has been a facile one. Moderate does not make him a republican. This argument has and continues to cost Bernie Bro’s their credibility. This argument is the same as when conservatives tried to say Ibama was a socialist.
Biden wasn’t explicitly anti single payer until the debate. So much for only pulling him to the left.
Here's the thing Joe Biden has been in politics for a LONG time. When you say stuff like this it's easy to check and see that this is not true. And as has mentioned by Bernie but is falling on deaf ears Biden takes a lot of money (millions) from the healthcare lobbyists. He's not going to do the right thing. He's going to do what he's paid to do which coincides with his lifelong conservative beliefs.
See - you’re making a fundamental mistake. It’s a simple one, based in perspective:
Everyone who isn’t a progressive isn’t automatically a republican. Is Biden less progressive than Sanders? Yes. Is Biden more conservative that Sanders? Yes. Is Biden a Republican? No. Is Biden a conservative with respect to the US electorate or government? No.
Not everyone who disagrees with Sanders is a conservative republican from the 1980s. Obama wouldn’t satisfy all of those criteria - and he’s literally the most progressive president in US history (president, not nominee). Obama isn’t a republican.
This is just as misguided as those who argued that Obama was a socialist. It’s the same.
He isn’t siphoning votes off Bernie. Sanders is done. Legitimately, Biden could suspend all campaign related events and adds and still best Bernie. It’s over. He’s trying to make common ground with progressives.
Edit2 - Sanders is reported “assessing” his campaign. Hopefully it’s code for suspending it.
See - you’re making a fundamental mistake. It’s a simple one, based in perspective:
Everyone who isn’t a progressive isn’t automatically a republican. Is Biden less progressive than Sanders? Yes. Is Biden more conservative that Sanders? Yes. Is Biden a Republican? No. Is Biden a conservative with respect to the US electorate or government? No.
Not everyone who disagrees with Sanders is a conservative republican from the 1980s. Obama wouldn’t satisfy all of those criteria - and he’s literally the most progressive president in US history (president, not nominee). Obama isn’t a republican.
This is just as misguided as those who argued that Obama was a socialist. It’s the same.
He isn’t siphoning votes off Bernie. Sanders is done. Legitimately, Biden could suspend all campaign related events and adds and still best Bernie. It’s over. He’s trying to make common ground with progressives.
Edit2 - Sanders is reported “assessing” his campaign. Hopefully it’s code for suspending it.
Those positions that Bernie has are the right ones.
Check out Joe Biden The burden of a 40-year career: Some of Joe Biden’s record doesn’t age well
-Biden opposed school busing for desegregation in the 1970s.
- He voted for a measure aimed at outlawing gay marriage in the 1990s.
- He is an ally of the banking and credit card industries.
- He chaired the 1991 Clarence Thomas hearings and attacked Anita Hill and the sexual harassment allegations she raised. Look at Clarence Thomas' career, Joe was wrong.
- He backed crime legislation that many blamed for helping fuel an explosion in prison populations. He eulogized Sen. Strom Thurmond (R-S.C.), who rose to prominence as a segregationist.
- He backed the Iraq war. https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-biden-senate-record-controversies-20190318-story.html
Why should Joe Biden be handed the nomination? Just look at him, he's terrible. He should not be the nominee. He's your creepy handsy uncle and he's mentally not all there.
Ok you want to talk Obama. He ran as a progressive, but once he got into office he was a moderate. Obamacare was Romneycare. He bailed out people. He didn't prosecute people. He drone striked the hell out of people. He was the deporter in chief. Very right wing. He could be a Republican - if Republicans weren't so far right as to be in cuckoo land. Sanders is and has always been left wing. He is where the Democratic party SHOULD be - working for people.
It's totally misguided that people are like "just give up, it's Biden." Why's it Biden? Have you seen Biden? Biden sucks. Look at him. Is he better than Trump? Yeah, but the bar is incredibly low. That doesn't mean Biden is good. What issue that Joe Biden has voted on the right side of ever can you? Maybe there is. Joe Biden is threatening to beat up elderly men and keeps telling people to vote for Trump. This is the guy you guys want to hand the nomination to? His son is in some fake scandal invented by Republicans in a thing that Trump was impeached over. This will be brought up - remember how hillary's emails were all over the election? Trump will be able to easily run to the left of Biden on some issues.
Here's audio recording from Lev Parnas of Trump saying the only presidential candidate he hoped Hillary would not pick to be her VP was Bernie Sanders.
This is the last time I’m going to respond to you on this topic because you’re repeating yourself over and over again. They aren’t counter points to my argument at all - and I’m not disagreeing with the vast majority of them.
I’m not saying Biden is better than Sanders. I’m not saying Biden was right. That isn’t the discussion we are having. I don’t care about any of that because it is, at this point, completely immaterial.
No one handed Biden anything. He is winning primaries in landslides. He will be the nominee not because he’s better than Sanders, but because he will win more delegates because people have voted for him overwhelmingly. Full stop - Bernie isn’t going to win because people won’t vote for him.
Biden’s stances at those times were within the scope of the party platform of the Democratic Party - ergo, he is a Democrat. Obama ran as a progressive, and governed somewhere between a moderate and progressive agenda. He also was not a Republican.
At the moment I just find these inter-party arguments kind of rote and meaningless. There is a US Naval Medical ship heading to New York harbor because they are likely going to need every single one of it's extra 1000 beds. Medical workers all over the country are saying "we're bracing for impact, we know it's coming, but we're not sure the public understands".
That said, the primaries should have been postponed. Those people should not have been out yesterday. But Biden won OVERWHELMINGLY. I don't think Sanders won a single county in Florida. This crisis, for whatever reason, did nothing to help him even given his positions on Medicare for All. Even though I doubt it would have mattered, anyone who watched the debate came away with the idea that Biden was focused on the crisis in the moment, and Bernie was focused on the aftermath. We aren't in the aftermath. We aren't even done with the top of the first inning.
This is the last time I’m going to respond to you on this topic because you’re repeating yourself over and over again. They aren’t counter points to my argument at all - and I’m not disagreeing with the vast majority of them.
I’m not saying Biden is better than Sanders. I’m not saying Biden was right. That isn’t the discussion we are having. I don’t care about any of that because it is, at this point, completely immaterial.
No one handed Biden anything. He is winning primaries in landslides. He will be the nominee not because he’s better than Sanders, but because he will win more delegates because people have voted for him overwhelmingly. Full stop - Bernie isn’t going to win because people won’t vote for him.
Biden’s stances at those times were within the scope of the party platform of the Democratic Party - ergo, he is a Democrat. Obama ran as a progressive, and governed somewhere between a moderate and progressive agenda. He also was not a Republican.
@smeagoiheart is correct that Bernie is the only candidate that is a 'true' Democrat. He's also right that the Republicans are in Cuckooland. I think he's also right that establishment Democrats are 'Republucan Light'. Where you're correct is that, for whatever reason, the public will not vote for Bernie. What I don't understand is, why the Hell is it Biden? It just smacks of another FU from the same folks that brought us Hillary in '16...
You're about the see the phrase "eat the rich" become ALOT more prevalent. And frankly, at a certain point, it's impossible to criticize that sentiment. So much of this seems like the death knell of hyper-capitalism:
Not that it matters, but 10 minutes ago, the stock market just fell below where it was when Trump was sworn-in. So it turns out using the Dow Jones as your personal scorecard was not, in fact, a solid plan after all. Which is why no other President ever did so. But he'll probably skate on that too like he does everything else.
We keep being told that widespread testing is right around the corner. Trump is saying it again right now. At this point it's like Lucy and the football. There is no evidence of it from actual medical facilities and states. They've been using this line for weeks and no matter what they say, it still isn't true. He keeps saying he "inherited" a mess from Obama. Interesting. First of all, we now have reporting that the outgoing Obama team ran through a scenario with the incoming Trump team about how to respond to a pandemic. For another, whatever you "inherited", you had 3 years to change. Which of course they did. For the worse.
This is the last time I’m going to respond to you on this topic because you’re repeating yourself over and over again. They aren’t counter points to my argument at all - and I’m not disagreeing with the vast majority of them.
I’m not saying Biden is better than Sanders. I’m not saying Biden was right. That isn’t the discussion we are having. I don’t care about any of that because it is, at this point, completely immaterial.
No one handed Biden anything. He is winning primaries in landslides. He will be the nominee not because he’s better than Sanders, but because he will win more delegates because people have voted for him overwhelmingly. Full stop - Bernie isn’t going to win because people won’t vote for him.
Biden’s stances at those times were within the scope of the party platform of the Democratic Party - ergo, he is a Democrat. Obama ran as a progressive, and governed somewhere between a moderate and progressive agenda. He also was not a Republican.
@smeagoiheart is correct that Bernie is the only candidate that is a 'true' Democrat. He's also right that the Republicans are in Cuckooland. I think he's also right that establishment Democrats are 'Republucan Light'. Where you're correct is that, for whatever reason, the public will not vote for Bernie. What I don't understand is, why the Hell is it Biden? It just smacks of another FU from the same folks that brought us Hillary in '16...
These are my points too.
Maybe I wouldn't even say Bernie is a 'true' Democrat though, moderate and most Democrats are center right. Bernie is a leftist where the Dems should be (and where conservative media pretends they are) but not the reality. Bernie represents what the left should be doing, the Democrat party is not left. But they should be so like you say below...
Where you're correct is that, for whatever reason, the public will not vote for Bernie. What I don't understand is, why the Hell is it Biden? It just smacks of another FU from the same folks that brought us Hillary in '16...
Why indeed that's what I'm asking. And it seems this is a tough and terrible question for some reason.
This is the last time I’m going to respond to you on this topic because you’re repeating yourself over and over again. They aren’t counter points to my argument at all - and I’m not disagreeing with the vast majority of them.
I’m not saying Biden is better than Sanders. I’m not saying Biden was right. That isn’t the discussion we are having. I don’t care about any of that because it is, at this point, completely immaterial.
No one handed Biden anything. He is winning primaries in landslides. He will be the nominee not because he’s better than Sanders, but because he will win more delegates because people have voted for him overwhelmingly. Full stop - Bernie isn’t going to win because people won’t vote for him.
Biden’s stances at those times were within the scope of the party platform of the Democratic Party - ergo, he is a Democrat. Obama ran as a progressive, and governed somewhere between a moderate and progressive agenda. He also was not a Republican.
Can't we have a reasonable discussion? I have no problem with what you are saying on the points. I'm questioning - why Biden?
Bernie would win if people would quit just assuming well "let's just hand it to Biden" which is what the media is telling people to do and what people have convinced themselves to do. Why? Look at Biden. Yes I'm saying the same points because there's no refuting them. This is the democratic primary, you pick the best candidate. That person is not Biden.
I’m not saying Biden is better than Sanders. I’m not saying Biden was right. That isn’t the discussion we are having. I don’t care about any of that because it is, at this point, completely immaterial.
"He will be the nominee not because he’s better than Sanders", then why vote for him "overwhelmingly"? I really don't get it. This must be the collectivism that mathsorceror was complaining about.
"Biden’s stances at those times were within the scope of the party platform of the Democratic Party". They should not have been. Yes Biden's a Democrat of course, he's just been wrong about things and the Democratic party has been wrong too. Bernie Sanders has not been wrong. There's two choices. Why is Biden being handed the nomination through reinforced media bias, right wing attacks (from the right wing AND Joe Biden), and "well just he gets votes so lets vote for him" attitude.
This belongs more in the covid threat maybe. I don't have a problem with NBA players being tested. Everyone should be tested, that's the failure of the Trump administration. That and not working to get enough medical equipment across the nation, telling governors to fend for themselves.
This belongs more in the covid threat maybe. I don't have a problem with NBA players being tested. Everyone should be tested, that's the failure of the Trump administration. That and not working to get enough medical equipment across the nation, telling governors to fend for themselves.
The point is that plenty of people who ARE sick are driving to hospitals and being told they aren't able to test them because they aren't in an at risk group. It's fairly clear that these NBA teams are getting instantaneous access to the tests. Where are they for everyone else??
As for more economic impact, look at these fucking unemployment claim numbers. Ho-ly shit:
I fundamentally disagree that establishment Democrats are Republican light. Almost literally every part of Clinton’s platform was anathema to Republicans.
Keeping ACA - Anathema
Acknowledging and dealing with Climate Change - Anathema
Raising Taxes - Anathema
Improving social safety net - Anathema
Letting Dreamers stay - Anathema
Paying for some or all of university - Anathema
Pathway to citizenship - Anathema
I could go on. I won’t. These are moderate stances by the Democrat party. They are all non starters for Republicans.
About “Why Biden” - I don’t have anything for you. The Democratic electorate isn’t as progressive as we all want. There are people in that electorate who are scared of Sanders. My brother is one of them. He’s pretty progressive, and doesn’t like Sanders at all.
With the "Chinese Virus" labeling taking off on the right, I'll make a deal with them. You can use this term if you agree that, if you get sick, no Asian-American doctor or nurse is obligated to help you. If not, fuck off.
This belongs more in the covid threat maybe. I don't have a problem with NBA players being tested. Everyone should be tested, that's the failure of the Trump administration. That and not working to get enough medical equipment across the nation, telling governors to fend for themselves.
The point is that plenty of people who ARE sick are driving to hospitals and being told they aren't able to test them because they aren't in an at risk group. It's fairly clear that these NBA teams are getting instantaneous access to the tests. Where are they for everyone else??
As for more economic impact, look at these fucking unemployment claim numbers. Ho-ly shit:
I fundamentally disagree that establishment Democrats are Republican light. Almost literally every part of Clinton’s platform was anathema to Republicans.
Keeping ACA - Anathema
Acknowledging and dealing with Climate Change - Anathema
Raising Taxes - Anathema
Improving social safety net - Anathema
Letting Dreamers stay - Anathema
Paying for some or all of university - Anathema
Pathway to citizenship - Anathema
I could go on. I won’t. These are moderate stances by the Democrat party. They are all non starters for Republicans.
About “Why Biden” - I don’t have anything for you. The Democratic electorate isn’t as progressive as we all want. There are people in that electorate who are scared of Sanders. My brother is one of them. He’s pretty progressive, and doesn’t like Sanders at all.
Somewhat fair enough. In general, just because republicans, who are overall extreme far right, are against the most minimal progress doesn't mean that Biden's positions are left wing. But yes a lot of those things you listed, from Clinton, are good positions.
Biden's about incrementalism, not totally letting people die in the streets while giving almost everything to corporations. His whole career has been basically caving in to whatever Republicans tell him to do. At any rate being to the left of Republicans doesn't mean he's not right wing.
Him arguing against medicare for all using republican talking points and lies was totally disgusting. He was lying. Either he knew it and did it anyway or he's just wrong. This is not a good sign for someone running for president to do. Sure, we're so numb from Trump that "only" lying about your record and misrepresenting something that the most minimal of research shows to be factually incorrect is not good.
His positions on climate change, what are they? Do we know? Pretty non-existent right? Climate change is as big a challenge as covid-19 (though not as IMMEDIATE it's been a huge problem every year the past few years just in smaller doses). The scope of what we gotta do to tackle this requires that we take it as seriously as a heart attack. That's not Joe Biden either of course.
Maybe I wouldn't even say Bernie is a 'true' Democrat though, moderate and most Democrats are center right. Bernie is a leftist where the Dems should be (and where conservative media pretends they are) but not the reality. Bernie represents what the left should be doing, the Democrat party is not left. But they should be so like you say below...
If you want a purist party in order to pressure the government with a 'clean' conscience then by all means form a new party and follow Sanders' agenda. If you want a party that can win power directly though then it's pretty clear a broader church is required. Personally I think that's a good thing. The tendency for some of Sanders' followers to treat others as idiots or traitors does not suggest to me that a government led by him would be any more of a unifying force than Trump has been - and you don't need to look past the front page of any newspaper to see the problems that can cause.
Bernie would win if people would quit just assuming well "let's just hand it to Biden" which is what the media is telling people to do and what people have convinced themselves to do.
Your view of the impact of the media narrative is unconvincing. In the early stages of the democratic debates the narrative very clearly set Biden as the one to beat (hence Trump's desire to create dirt on him). Clearly that narrative was not that persuasive though as Biden performed poorly in the early primaries - to an extent that the media narrative switched to almost writing him off. However, once again that new narrative did not reflect the voting in South Carolina or succeeding primaries.
I would suggest that a far more important factor than the media narrative has been political alliances. Biden appears to have benefited greatly from the endorsement by Clyburn - but part of the reason that was so effective was that many moderate voters were already concerned about Sanders. That's not just because of his political agenda, but also his inability to maintain alliances - even with Warren who's so close politically to him. Though I have sympathy with much of his agenda and think he has good personal integrity, if I were a US voter I would have grave concerns about Sanders' ability to get his policies into practice - and even more concern about his ability to do that without increasing political partisanship.
Not quoting because the posts just become gigantic:
I agree Biden is an incrementalist. This tends to be the operational attitude of anyone who isn’t in the extreme wings of the party. I don’t agree that he is by any means “right wing”. It may look that way to you because you are far to the left, ideologically - and lack the perspective to see that he shares more in common with Sanders than he does with any congressional republican. That’s not a dig at you or anything, just my honest assessment.
Biden came out against Fracking, and said he wants back into the Paris accord. Are those milquetoadt positions? Absolutely yes. However, if Bernie hits him too hard from the left on the Green New Deal, then Biden is less likely to incorporate elements of it into his platform.
Lastly - I think @Grond0 last paragraph is exactly right. Sanders has great, great policies - but hasn’t won anything. It’s not being stolen from him, it is precisely his own failure to broaden his coalition and create common ground that has now twice killed his candidacy. Voters see that, and react accordingly.
Not quoting because the posts just become gigantic:
I agree Biden is an incrementalist. This tends to be the operational attitude of anyone who isn’t in the extreme wings of the party. I don’t agree that he is by any means “right wing”. It may look that way to you because you are far to the left, ideologically - and lack the perspective to see that he shares more in common with Sanders than he does with any congressional republican. That’s not a dig at you or anything, just my honest assessment.
Biden came out against Fracking, and said he wants back into the Paris accord. Are those milquetoadt positions? Absolutely yes. However, if Bernie hits him too hard from the left on the Green New Deal, then Biden is less likely to incorporate elements of it into his platform.
Lastly - I think @Grond0 last paragraph is exactly right. Sanders has great, great policies - but hasn’t won anything. It’s not being stolen from him, it is precisely his own failure to broaden his coalition and create common ground that has now twice killed his candidacy. Voters see that, and react accordingly.
All right well thanks for laying it out despite saying you were done you could look past that. I see some of what you are saying. I appreciate the perspective. The Democratic party doesn't represent people these days. Sanders is aiming to represent people. There aren't enough of them right now and that needs to change but how do you overcome citizens united with the party funded by billionaires and corporate interests. Sure they're better than Republicans on those issues but that doesn't make them good.
Yes, Biden has more in common with Sanders than just about any Republican. You know what I'd say about that so I won't (but they're far... etc .
I'm not left wing.
I've lived in other countries, the Netherlands and Italy, and my views are not left wing. It's America that the overton window is screwed way the hell up. Sanders would be a moderate in most countries. He'd probably be a moderate in Canada.
Medicare for All is not a radical idea in any other western nation. It's frustrating that people think Biden, who has clearly adopted right wing positions for his career and argued for right wing policies and given in to right wing messaging his whole career, is kind of considered the moderate.
Yeah - it just seemed like we were taking past each other rather than to each other. Sorry if that bit seemed combative.
I do recognize that Sanders isn’t super left wing in the world at large. When I talk about him relative to Biden, I’m speaking only of US politics.
I also agree that plenty of his policy positions are not nearly good enough. I want them to improve. I also want him in over Trump. Those two goals can align, but not always.
This belongs more in the covid threat maybe. I don't have a problem with NBA players being tested. Everyone should be tested, that's the failure of the Trump administration. That and not working to get enough medical equipment across the nation, telling governors to fend for themselves.
The point is that plenty of people who ARE sick are driving to hospitals and being told they aren't able to test them because they aren't in an at risk group. It's fairly clear that these NBA teams are getting instantaneous access to the tests. Where are they for everyone else??
As for more economic impact, look at these fucking unemployment claim numbers. Ho-ly shit:
My work told us to apply for EI if this goes past 2 weeks. We’re still employed, we’re just getting zero hours. I think that is probably what is happening here.
I also don’t expect small businesses owners to pay out of pocket when they as well do not have any income coming in.
The Act contains three major sections. The first authorizes the President to require businesses to sign contracts or fulfill orders deemed necessary for national defense. The second authorizes the President to establish mechanisms (such as regulations, orders or agencies) to allocate materials, services and facilities to promote national defense. The third section authorizes the President to control the civilian economy so that scarce and/or critical materials necessary to the national defense effort are available for defense needs.
The Act also authorizes the President to requisition property, force industry to expand production and the supply of basic resources, impose wage and price controls, settle labor disputes, control consumer and real estate credit, establish contractual priorities, and allocate raw materials towards national defense.
I've lived in other countries, the Netherlands and Italy, and my views are not left wing. It's America that the overton window is screwed way the hell up. Sanders would be a moderate in most countries. He'd probably be a moderate in Canada.
Judging by the voting patterns of Italy, your social views would be considered so left wing as to be unelectable there, but just fine in the Netherlands. It's really not the case that America is some right wing anomaly, especially given the fact that the "far right" in many of the more traditionally left wing European countries are experiencing more growth and support than they have in decades, with traditional parties scrambling to keep them out of power.
If this and the cash payments go through, I will consider the handling of the situation a partial success. It had a terrible beginning but in the end they did more for people than I can see any recent past administration doing.
If the Senate blocks cash payments, I don't think I could ever support them again, and I don't say that lightly.
Let's see how long it takes for this to become the Trump is Hitler, the US is Nazi Germany and we're all going to die from global warming unless we stop driving, heating our houses and having kids thread again...
Curious how every generation for as far back as recorded civilisation has their characteristic doomsday scenarios and Chicken Littles/Lickens running hither and thither as they do in Luskan.
On the other side of the Electrum piece, my Sargeant didn't believe me when I suspected malign conspiratorial forces behind the Neverwintan wailing death. Thankfully Lord Nasher believed me.
If this and the cash payments go through, I will consider the handling of the situation a partial success. It had a terrible beginning but in the end they did more for people than I can see any recent past administration doing.
If the Senate blocks cash payments, I don't think I could ever support them again, and I don't say that lightly.
The two-month delay (to this hour) on testing is going to cause the unnecessary deaths of 10s of thousands of people. It is WHY the entire economy is basically having to shut down. Because we have no idea where the virus is. The checks and suspension of these actions (though not payments themselves) HAVE to happen because there is no other choice. But I see the game now. There is no evidence any other Administration wouldn't have to take the same steps just to make sure people can continue living on a sustenance level. But they wouldn't have let it get here in the first place.
He has convinced 30% of the country it isn't even a threat for the last 3+ weeks. He was offered MILLIONS of test kits in January and declined them. And now that the entire thing is literally falling apart, we are offering PRAISE?? Do not kid yourself, we aren't even to the second batter in the top of the first inning yet. This thing hasn't even STARTED yet. Of course Trump doesn't have a problem with sending out checks. His entire modus operandi is to create a crisis and then pretend he fixed it. Only this time it's gonna be 400,000 dead senior citizens. This isn't a mortgage bubble. It's a global pandemic.
As for the Senate, the only 8 votes against the initial aide package today in the Senate were Republicans. The only 40 votes against it in the House were Republicans. Mitch McConnell delayed it for at least 5 days for no discernible reason whatsoever. And watch how much money slips to "hotels" (i.e. Trump's own pocket), airlines and god knows what else at the same time, with no stipulations.
We haven't even gotten into how many businesses will never re-open, how many jobs will never be gone back to, the depression and inevitable suicides from what is going to likely be a period of on and off social isolation that may last the rest of the year. Again, this isn't 2008. This is 1929 mixed with 1918.
Comments
Pretty sure there will be questions on January 20, 2021 at noon if he decides he's not going to do the right thing.
Disagree. Biden is and has always been a moderate. He's a Republican.
Now, he's just blatantly lying now about his past record. And for some reason this approach is working? Not sure why people are blindly voting for this guy. Fuck Biden. Bernie's still the best candidate and should not bow out.
By staying in he's got a couple concessions already hasn't he? Biden adopted Warren's plan for student loans right? Biden has a terrible track record constantly says dumb stuff and just handing him the nomination is dumb. He should not be the nominee. Why should he be the nominee? He's awful. "People like him". Who? Why? He's nothing.
Biden wasn’t explicitly anti single payer until the debate. So much for only pulling him to the left.
Isn’t it weird how Warren dropped out, and it’s her plan he is adopting?
My aunt runs a hair salon in the smallest of small towns. She has been ordered to shut down for the rest of the month. She sent me a text this morning. They're comfortably middle-class. She sounds terrified about the financial implications. I don't really know what to tell her. The financial packages that are going to have to be passed are going to be the bare minimum needed for people to survive. We may be looking at 20-35% unemployment. That's not a recession, that's a depression. This isn't a drill.
As for corporate bailouts, as has been said, citizens are constantly told to save for emergencies, otherwise they are irresponsible. But apparently Delta and Boeing aren't required to have liquid assests that extend beyond one week, and they need tens of billions of dollars. This entire thing is a house of cards. It's not real. This virus is revealing nearly everything about American society is bullshit.
Here's the thing Joe Biden has been in politics for a LONG time. When you say stuff like this it's easy to check and see that this is not true. And as has mentioned by Bernie but is falling on deaf ears Biden takes a lot of money (millions) from the healthcare lobbyists. He's not going to do the right thing. He's going to do what he's paid to do which coincides with his lifelong conservative beliefs.
During the Feb. 7 Democratic presidential debate, former Vice President Joe Biden once again questioned the price tag of “Medicare for All,”
Turns out he was lying there.
https://khn.org/news/does-medicare-for-all-cost-more-than-the-entire-budget-biden-says-so-but-numbers-say-no/amp/
July 2019 - Biden is against single payer
https://apnews.com/6245d9ac166d4dd9a66dd017306a048b
Oct 2019 - Biden’s Attacks on Medicare for All Undermine the Entire Democratic Agenda
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/10/biden-attack-medicare-for-all-warren-sanders-democratic-debate.html
Yes it is weird. Because he obviously doesn't support these types of positions. He's pandering and trying to siphon off votes from Bernie.
Everyone who isn’t a progressive isn’t automatically a republican. Is Biden less progressive than Sanders? Yes. Is Biden more conservative that Sanders? Yes. Is Biden a Republican? No. Is Biden a conservative with respect to the US electorate or government? No.
Not everyone who disagrees with Sanders is a conservative republican from the 1980s. Obama wouldn’t satisfy all of those criteria - and he’s literally the most progressive president in US history (president, not nominee). Obama isn’t a republican.
This is just as misguided as those who argued that Obama was a socialist. It’s the same.
He isn’t siphoning votes off Bernie. Sanders is done. Legitimately, Biden could suspend all campaign related events and adds and still best Bernie. It’s over. He’s trying to make common ground with progressives.
Edit2 - Sanders is reported “assessing” his campaign. Hopefully it’s code for suspending it.
Those positions that Bernie has are the right ones.
Check out Joe Biden
The burden of a 40-year career: Some of Joe Biden’s record doesn’t age well
-Biden opposed school busing for desegregation in the 1970s.
- He voted for a measure aimed at outlawing gay marriage in the 1990s.
- He is an ally of the banking and credit card industries.
- He chaired the 1991 Clarence Thomas hearings and attacked Anita Hill and the sexual harassment allegations she raised. Look at Clarence Thomas' career, Joe was wrong.
- He backed crime legislation that many blamed for helping fuel an explosion in prison populations. He eulogized Sen. Strom Thurmond (R-S.C.), who rose to prominence as a segregationist.
- He backed the Iraq war.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-biden-senate-record-controversies-20190318-story.html
Why should Joe Biden be handed the nomination? Just look at him, he's terrible. He should not be the nominee. He's your creepy handsy uncle and he's mentally not all there.
Ok you want to talk Obama. He ran as a progressive, but once he got into office he was a moderate. Obamacare was Romneycare. He bailed out people. He didn't prosecute people. He drone striked the hell out of people. He was the deporter in chief. Very right wing. He could be a Republican - if Republicans weren't so far right as to be in cuckoo land. Sanders is and has always been left wing. He is where the Democratic party SHOULD be - working for people.
It's totally misguided that people are like "just give up, it's Biden." Why's it Biden? Have you seen Biden? Biden sucks. Look at him. Is he better than Trump? Yeah, but the bar is incredibly low. That doesn't mean Biden is good. What issue that Joe Biden has voted on the right side of ever can you? Maybe there is. Joe Biden is threatening to beat up elderly men and keeps telling people to vote for Trump. This is the guy you guys want to hand the nomination to? His son is in some fake scandal invented by Republicans in a thing that Trump was impeached over. This will be brought up - remember how hillary's emails were all over the election? Trump will be able to easily run to the left of Biden on some issues.
Here's audio recording from Lev Parnas of Trump saying the only presidential candidate he hoped Hillary would not pick to be her VP was Bernie Sanders.
I’m not saying Biden is better than Sanders. I’m not saying Biden was right. That isn’t the discussion we are having. I don’t care about any of that because it is, at this point, completely immaterial.
No one handed Biden anything. He is winning primaries in landslides. He will be the nominee not because he’s better than Sanders, but because he will win more delegates because people have voted for him overwhelmingly. Full stop - Bernie isn’t going to win because people won’t vote for him.
Biden’s stances at those times were within the scope of the party platform of the Democratic Party - ergo, he is a Democrat. Obama ran as a progressive, and governed somewhere between a moderate and progressive agenda. He also was not a Republican.
That said, the primaries should have been postponed. Those people should not have been out yesterday. But Biden won OVERWHELMINGLY. I don't think Sanders won a single county in Florida. This crisis, for whatever reason, did nothing to help him even given his positions on Medicare for All. Even though I doubt it would have mattered, anyone who watched the debate came away with the idea that Biden was focused on the crisis in the moment, and Bernie was focused on the aftermath. We aren't in the aftermath. We aren't even done with the top of the first inning.
@smeagoiheart is correct that Bernie is the only candidate that is a 'true' Democrat. He's also right that the Republicans are in Cuckooland. I think he's also right that establishment Democrats are 'Republucan Light'. Where you're correct is that, for whatever reason, the public will not vote for Bernie. What I don't understand is, why the Hell is it Biden? It just smacks of another FU from the same folks that brought us Hillary in '16...
Not that it matters, but 10 minutes ago, the stock market just fell below where it was when Trump was sworn-in. So it turns out using the Dow Jones as your personal scorecard was not, in fact, a solid plan after all. Which is why no other President ever did so. But he'll probably skate on that too like he does everything else.
We keep being told that widespread testing is right around the corner. Trump is saying it again right now. At this point it's like Lucy and the football. There is no evidence of it from actual medical facilities and states. They've been using this line for weeks and no matter what they say, it still isn't true. He keeps saying he "inherited" a mess from Obama. Interesting. First of all, we now have reporting that the outgoing Obama team ran through a scenario with the incoming Trump team about how to respond to a pandemic. For another, whatever you "inherited", you had 3 years to change. Which of course they did. For the worse.
These are my points too.
Maybe I wouldn't even say Bernie is a 'true' Democrat though, moderate and most Democrats are center right. Bernie is a leftist where the Dems should be (and where conservative media pretends they are) but not the reality. Bernie represents what the left should be doing, the Democrat party is not left. But they should be so like you say below...
Why indeed that's what I'm asking. And it seems this is a tough and terrible question for some reason.
Can't we have a reasonable discussion? I have no problem with what you are saying on the points. I'm questioning - why Biden?
Bernie would win if people would quit just assuming well "let's just hand it to Biden" which is what the media is telling people to do and what people have convinced themselves to do. Why? Look at Biden. Yes I'm saying the same points because there's no refuting them. This is the democratic primary, you pick the best candidate. That person is not Biden.
"He will be the nominee not because he’s better than Sanders", then why vote for him "overwhelmingly"? I really don't get it. This must be the collectivism that mathsorceror was complaining about.
"Biden’s stances at those times were within the scope of the party platform of the Democratic Party". They should not have been. Yes Biden's a Democrat of course, he's just been wrong about things and the Democratic party has been wrong too. Bernie Sanders has not been wrong. There's two choices. Why is Biden being handed the nomination through reinforced media bias, right wing attacks (from the right wing AND Joe Biden), and "well just he gets votes so lets vote for him" attitude.
This belongs more in the covid threat maybe. I don't have a problem with NBA players being tested. Everyone should be tested, that's the failure of the Trump administration. That and not working to get enough medical equipment across the nation, telling governors to fend for themselves.
The point is that plenty of people who ARE sick are driving to hospitals and being told they aren't able to test them because they aren't in an at risk group. It's fairly clear that these NBA teams are getting instantaneous access to the tests. Where are they for everyone else??
As for more economic impact, look at these fucking unemployment claim numbers. Ho-ly shit:
Keeping ACA - Anathema
Acknowledging and dealing with Climate Change - Anathema
Raising Taxes - Anathema
Improving social safety net - Anathema
Letting Dreamers stay - Anathema
Paying for some or all of university - Anathema
Pathway to citizenship - Anathema
I could go on. I won’t. These are moderate stances by the Democrat party. They are all non starters for Republicans.
About “Why Biden” - I don’t have anything for you. The Democratic electorate isn’t as progressive as we all want. There are people in that electorate who are scared of Sanders. My brother is one of them. He’s pretty progressive, and doesn’t like Sanders at all.
Every single waitress/waiter and busboy in every state that has shut down 'dining in', is now unemployed. That's a Hell of a lot of people...
Somewhat fair enough. In general, just because republicans, who are overall extreme far right, are against the most minimal progress doesn't mean that Biden's positions are left wing. But yes a lot of those things you listed, from Clinton, are good positions.
Biden's about incrementalism, not totally letting people die in the streets while giving almost everything to corporations. His whole career has been basically caving in to whatever Republicans tell him to do. At any rate being to the left of Republicans doesn't mean he's not right wing.
Him arguing against medicare for all using republican talking points and lies was totally disgusting. He was lying. Either he knew it and did it anyway or he's just wrong. This is not a good sign for someone running for president to do. Sure, we're so numb from Trump that "only" lying about your record and misrepresenting something that the most minimal of research shows to be factually incorrect is not good.
His positions on climate change, what are they? Do we know? Pretty non-existent right? Climate change is as big a challenge as covid-19 (though not as IMMEDIATE it's been a huge problem every year the past few years just in smaller doses). The scope of what we gotta do to tackle this requires that we take it as seriously as a heart attack. That's not Joe Biden either of course.
Your view of the impact of the media narrative is unconvincing. In the early stages of the democratic debates the narrative very clearly set Biden as the one to beat (hence Trump's desire to create dirt on him). Clearly that narrative was not that persuasive though as Biden performed poorly in the early primaries - to an extent that the media narrative switched to almost writing him off. However, once again that new narrative did not reflect the voting in South Carolina or succeeding primaries.
I would suggest that a far more important factor than the media narrative has been political alliances. Biden appears to have benefited greatly from the endorsement by Clyburn - but part of the reason that was so effective was that many moderate voters were already concerned about Sanders. That's not just because of his political agenda, but also his inability to maintain alliances - even with Warren who's so close politically to him. Though I have sympathy with much of his agenda and think he has good personal integrity, if I were a US voter I would have grave concerns about Sanders' ability to get his policies into practice - and even more concern about his ability to do that without increasing political partisanship.
I agree Biden is an incrementalist. This tends to be the operational attitude of anyone who isn’t in the extreme wings of the party. I don’t agree that he is by any means “right wing”. It may look that way to you because you are far to the left, ideologically - and lack the perspective to see that he shares more in common with Sanders than he does with any congressional republican. That’s not a dig at you or anything, just my honest assessment.
Biden came out against Fracking, and said he wants back into the Paris accord. Are those milquetoadt positions? Absolutely yes. However, if Bernie hits him too hard from the left on the Green New Deal, then Biden is less likely to incorporate elements of it into his platform.
Lastly - I think @Grond0 last paragraph is exactly right. Sanders has great, great policies - but hasn’t won anything. It’s not being stolen from him, it is precisely his own failure to broaden his coalition and create common ground that has now twice killed his candidacy. Voters see that, and react accordingly.
All right well thanks for laying it out despite saying you were done you could look past that. I see some of what you are saying. I appreciate the perspective. The Democratic party doesn't represent people these days. Sanders is aiming to represent people. There aren't enough of them right now and that needs to change but how do you overcome citizens united with the party funded by billionaires and corporate interests. Sure they're better than Republicans on those issues but that doesn't make them good.
Yes, Biden has more in common with Sanders than just about any Republican. You know what I'd say about that so I won't (but they're far... etc
I'm not left wing.
I've lived in other countries, the Netherlands and Italy, and my views are not left wing. It's America that the overton window is screwed way the hell up. Sanders would be a moderate in most countries. He'd probably be a moderate in Canada.
Medicare for All is not a radical idea in any other western nation. It's frustrating that people think Biden, who has clearly adopted right wing positions for his career and argued for right wing policies and given in to right wing messaging his whole career, is kind of considered the moderate.
I do recognize that Sanders isn’t super left wing in the world at large. When I talk about him relative to Biden, I’m speaking only of US politics.
I also agree that plenty of his policy positions are not nearly good enough. I want them to improve. I also want him in over Trump. Those two goals can align, but not always.
My work told us to apply for EI if this goes past 2 weeks. We’re still employed, we’re just getting zero hours. I think that is probably what is happening here.
I also don’t expect small businesses owners to pay out of pocket when they as well do not have any income coming in.
More power.
*************
As far as me leaving....yeah, right. Make me.
Judging by the voting patterns of Italy, your social views would be considered so left wing as to be unelectable there, but just fine in the Netherlands. It's really not the case that America is some right wing anomaly, especially given the fact that the "far right" in many of the more traditionally left wing European countries are experiencing more growth and support than they have in decades, with traditional parties scrambling to keep them out of power.
If the Senate blocks cash payments, I don't think I could ever support them again, and I don't say that lightly.
Curious how every generation for as far back as recorded civilisation has their characteristic doomsday scenarios and Chicken Littles/Lickens running hither and thither as they do in Luskan.
On the other side of the Electrum piece, my Sargeant didn't believe me when I suspected malign conspiratorial forces behind the Neverwintan wailing death. Thankfully Lord Nasher believed me.
The two-month delay (to this hour) on testing is going to cause the unnecessary deaths of 10s of thousands of people. It is WHY the entire economy is basically having to shut down. Because we have no idea where the virus is. The checks and suspension of these actions (though not payments themselves) HAVE to happen because there is no other choice. But I see the game now. There is no evidence any other Administration wouldn't have to take the same steps just to make sure people can continue living on a sustenance level. But they wouldn't have let it get here in the first place.
He has convinced 30% of the country it isn't even a threat for the last 3+ weeks. He was offered MILLIONS of test kits in January and declined them. And now that the entire thing is literally falling apart, we are offering PRAISE?? Do not kid yourself, we aren't even to the second batter in the top of the first inning yet. This thing hasn't even STARTED yet. Of course Trump doesn't have a problem with sending out checks. His entire modus operandi is to create a crisis and then pretend he fixed it. Only this time it's gonna be 400,000 dead senior citizens. This isn't a mortgage bubble. It's a global pandemic.
As for the Senate, the only 8 votes against the initial aide package today in the Senate were Republicans. The only 40 votes against it in the House were Republicans. Mitch McConnell delayed it for at least 5 days for no discernible reason whatsoever. And watch how much money slips to "hotels" (i.e. Trump's own pocket), airlines and god knows what else at the same time, with no stipulations.
We haven't even gotten into how many businesses will never re-open, how many jobs will never be gone back to, the depression and inevitable suicides from what is going to likely be a period of on and off social isolation that may last the rest of the year. Again, this isn't 2008. This is 1929 mixed with 1918.