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Pathfinder : Kingmaker

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  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,057
    edited March 31
    Anyone here soloed the game?





    I watched this video and now wanna do a solo run.
    Anyone here made a solo run?
    Does the turn based mod works well with multiple summons AND modded classes like Arcanist?
    Should i go Arcanist(mod) or Sorcerer?

  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,511
    Anyone here soloed the game?





    I watched this video and now wanna do a solo run.
    Anyone here made a solo run?
    Does the turn based mod works well with multiple summons AND modded classes like Arcanist?
    Should i go Arcanist(mod) or Sorcerer?

    Mods are working just fine with TB. I don't play Arcanist myself, but I installed Call of the Wild and a Touch of Magic and both are working as intended. I don't use summons that much, so I can't comment if multiple summons are allowed. I only used summon lesser elemental couple of times and wasn't that much impressed. As for which class to chose, I've chosen Sage Sorcerer and I'm really pleased with the performance. He's my main offensive caster, and he's doing his job flawlessly. I was disappointed at the beginning for not noticing Sage Sorcerer cannot take Dragon Disciple prestige class, but now I got over it and enjoying my charname.

    Here's, what I think, a perfect party for me (with a small caveat):

    Charname -> He's a sage sorcerer, and he's my main offensive caster. I tried to pick various types of spells, not limiting myself to only damage dealing ones and it turned out interesting. I can employ various different tactics.

    Valerie -> this is the only party member I'm not fully pleased with. She's very competent fighter, but I'm disappointed with the damage she deals. How do you guys propose to develop her to inflict slightly more damage. Compared to Amiri she's a bit of a lackluster in this regard. I now she's defensive type of fighter, but I need her to do a bit more damage. She's using long sword and a heavy shield in my game.

    Amiri -> a monster, her crits can do over 50 damage. I love her. She's now still using her default sword, but I can't wait I find something better.

    Ekundayo -> oh boy, this guy and his dog are both OP. It's unbelievable. I love it! Doggy can trip almost everyone with each hit! And Ekun can shot three times! This is a beast, truly.

    Tristan -> very competent cleric, my main healer and support caster. Very good choice.

    Octavia -> she's my second offensive caster and a thief. I've made her Arcane Trickster and I'm happy with her performance.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,057
    Cahir wrote: »
    Anyone here soloed the game?





    I watched this video and now wanna do a solo run.
    Anyone here made a solo run?
    Does the turn based mod works well with multiple summons AND modded classes like Arcanist?
    Should i go Arcanist(mod) or Sorcerer?

    Mods are working just fine with TB. I don't play Arcanist myself, but I installed Call of the Wild and a Touch of Magic and both are working as intended. I don't use summons that much, so I can't comment if multiple summons are allowed. I only used summon lesser elemental couple of times and wasn't that much impressed. As for which class to chose, I've chosen Sage Sorcerer and I'm really pleased with the performance. He's my main offensive caster, and he's doing his job flawlessly. I was disappointed at the beginning for not noticing Sage Sorcerer cannot take Dragon Disciple prestige class, but now I got over it and enjoying my charname.(...)

    Sorry for nitpick, your answer is perfect in every regard except summons. Most people who says that PF:KM has weak summons try to summon generally only one low level creature. Animate dead and Creeping doom are amazing. Summon monster with agumented summoning and superior summoning feats too.

    Being a Dhampir(mod) and having a cleric who can mass channel negative energy is a amazing way to heal you and any undead created by animate dead and create greater undead minions. Looks like each summoned skeleton is CR 6, be able to create 4~6 CR 6 monsters with a tier 3/4 spell is so amazing. Most games made summoning far weaker than P&P but this game made summoning much stronger. Note that this undeads are immune to cold, so you can nuke enemies with cone of cold while your minions are safe.

    Creeping doom summons 5 Swarms of deadly insects that can make the enemy do a lot of FORT saver or be poisoned and if the enemy doesn't have AoE attacks, he will have a really hard time. Summon monster who can summon soul eaters(if the char is evil) can lower enemy WIS, reducing their WILL saves vs nasty spells like feeblemind and phantasmal killers(that some summons can also use if i remember correctly)

    Here is i using a lot of summons

  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,511
    @SorcererV1ct0r I didn't say PF:K has weak summons in general it's that this one particular summon I've used so far did not help me much during fights. I didn't try other summoning spells though, so I may be yet positively surprised. Summon monster III summons couple of extraplanar dogs if I'm not mistaken. If those dogs will be even half as good as Ekun's dog, count me in 😁Also need to try Animate dead, since Tristan has it. Those skeletal warriors I fought in Old Sycamore were pretty though.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 20,946
    The game practically screams at you not to rest at the place where Smoulderbourn appears. I haven't done that fight in any recent playthrough.

    Wererats is another where you have numerous clues that you are about to face some very dangerous and intelligent foes. It's not even a particularly difficult fight once you put some basic defences in place.

    Is there an unknown algorithm to figure out the clues mean you're about to face an enemy requiring level 5 or more to be able to tackle? Maybe you can figure out the clues mean more than basic unlucky adventurers suffering their fate? I mean, come on. Do dead bodies mean you don't have a chance? Maybe they could if you knew the bodies belonged to really experienced adventurers.
    Cahir wrote: »
    looked like a regular cave.

    Yep, this is the core of it. To me, all those places look like regular locations. Yes, dead bodies! What of them. This in no way can let you know you're supposed to fight THAT difficult foe.

    People are extremely used to handholding RPG games/Dungeon Masters

    What does "handholding" even mean? To me, it sounds like when the game is holding the player's hand. You know, by requesting the player to git gud, reload and come back later.

  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 592
    Even the Crag Linnorm cave is surrounded by bones on the outside and inside.

    Those are your warnings. It doesn't mean they are not doable encounters. But it means don't whinge that the game is unfair if you got your ass whupped, because the clues were there that there was something dangerous ahead.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,057
    (...)

    What does "handholding" even mean? To me, it sounds like when the game is holding the player's hand. You know, by requesting the player to git gud, reload and come back later.

    No, only that exploration of newer places needs to feel dangerous and you should't fight everything that moves

    Look to Dark Souls 1. IF you after the tutorial decide to go on catacombs, you will have a hard time unless you are extremely good. On Gothic 2, you should't fight Orcs on chapter 2. You should run from then towards the objective. You can fight then if you are good but is not a good idea. On M&M VII, one of the starting quests is to pick a item from the Dragon's Cave. You don't fight the dragon, you pick the item and run. Klauth if not weakened is extremely hard on nwn1. On ToEE, some elemental nodes can be a pain in the **** and some encounters on the first floor too. On Fallout New Vegas, you can encounter Deathclaws on the beginning of the game and have no chance against then

    You can dislike it, hate it but this is not a problem.

    Note that most of this very harsh encounters are optional on pathfinder kingmaker. Most old school RPG's are more about being immersive and dangerous worlds to live and explore and less about just being games. IF you go to uncharted lands, you can find nothing, find harsh challenges or finding amazing things. It makes perfectly sense. The idea of level scaling, that takes out all satisfaction of overpowering your enemy and the tension of being far weaker is something extremely recent on modern games.

    PsicoVic
  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,511
    Even the Crag Linnorm cave is surrounded by bones on the outside and inside.

    Those are your warnings. It doesn't mean they are not doable encounters. But it means don't whinge that the game is unfair if you got your ass whupped, because the clues were there that there was something dangerous ahead.

    I don't whinge about game beeing unfair. Just stating the fact that cave where this powerful linnorm lives looks totally unremarkable. It's not, you know, Firkraag's lair, where I felt from the very beginning that there is something powerful and dangerous living there. I just didn't know what it was during my first playthrough. Here, I just *stumbled* on a boss just like that. In BG2 you don't stumble upon a boss by accident.

    But I'm not complaining, I'll return later and will kick this wyrm's ass. 😁

    JuliusBorisov
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 20,946
    edited March 31
    @SorcererV1ct0r It's very unfair to compare games of different subgenres in this regard. In Fallout NV you can just, you know, turn back and run. As in any first-person real-time game. Dark Souls is THE game about the player trying again and again after getting killed. It started the whole genre.

    In M&M games exploration is THE key. You can explore stuff, see enemies from afar, and just turn back and go away. ALWAYS. And you can kill that dragon, even on Lvl 1. Just as in BG, where you have hundreds of ways to kill Drizzt while you're still Lvl 1, or fight Kangaxx just the soonest you can. This is the combat approach I adore. This is the approach I like the most. It's the opposite of what we have in P:K.

    When you have to git gud, that's not a similar exploration. That's giving the player the meta knowledge. It's the exploration of the player, not the character you're playing. In the same way the player can read a guide which will tell them to visit this location only upon reaching a certain level.

    If anything, the timed main questline is anything other than an exploration booster.

    When you have to overpower the enemy it's not a challenge. It's very similar to grinding - you have to do something else to be able to do this or that encounter.
    Even the Crag Linnorm cave is surrounded by bones on the outside and inside.

    Those are your warnings. It doesn't mean they are not doable encounters. But it means don't whinge that the game is unfair if you got your ass whupped, because the clues were there that there was something dangerous ahead.

    Yeah, so you're saying the character (not the player) should constantly run away and never attempt anything. See, this is where our views on games differ in a maximum way: I always imagine what the character will do, how they will react. Not the player, the character. How those bones around the cave or a few bodies next to a campfire saying: this fight is for your 30th playing hour, not the 15th, - makes me like the design, I really don't know.

    @Cahir is so spot on that in P:K you just stumble on a OP enemy. And you keep doing that again and again.

    I wasn't happy about the Adra Dragon in PoE. But P:K shows that dungeon was done much better: everything kinda screams there: the boss will be brutal. What is screaming that way in P:K - I don't know. Our party beat there freaking boss of the dungeon: Tartuk (additional questions asked why it was so easy), it beat freaking kings and queens (of local creatures), and yet it goes down to a single wisp. Our party can kick Stag Lord's ass, and yet it goes down to 3 wererats.

    BelgarathMTHAdam_en_tiumBallpointMansarevok57
  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,511
    @SorcererV1ct0r It's very unfair to compare games of different subgenres in this regard. In Fallout NV you can just, you know, turn back and run. As in any first-person real-time game. Dark Souls is THE game about the player trying again and again after getting killed. It started the whole genre.

    In M&M games exploration is THE key. You can explore stuff, see enemies from afar, and just turn back and go away. ALWAYS. And you can kill that dragon, even on Lvl 1. Just as in BG, where you have hundreds of ways to kill Drizzt while you're still Lvl 1, or fight Kangaxx just the soonest you can. This is the combat approach I adore. This is the approach I like the most. It's the opposite of what we have in P:K.

    When you have to git gud, that's not a similar exploration. That's giving the player the meta knowledge. It's the exploration of the player, not the character you're playing. In the same way the player can read a guide which will tell them to visit this location only upon reaching a certain level.

    If anything, the timed main questline is anything other than an exploration booster.

    When you have to overpower the enemy it's not a challenge. It's very similar to grinding - you have to do something else to be able to do this or that encounter.
    Even the Crag Linnorm cave is surrounded by bones on the outside and inside.

    Those are your warnings. It doesn't mean they are not doable encounters. But it means don't whinge that the game is unfair if you got your ass whupped, because the clues were there that there was something dangerous ahead.

    Yeah, so you're saying the character (not the player) should constantly run away and never attempt anything. See, this is where our views on games differ in a maximum way: I always imagine what the character will do, how they will react. Not the player, the character. How those bones around the cave or a few bodies next to a campfire saying: this fight is for your 30th playing hour, not the 15th, - makes me like the design, I really don't know.

    @Cahir is so spot on that in P:K you just stumble on a OP enemy. And you keep doing that again and again.

    I wasn't happy about the Adra Dragon in PoE. But P:K shows that dungeon was done much better: everything kinda screams there: the boss will be brutal. What is screaming that way in P:K - I don't know. Our party beat there freaking boss of the dungeon: Tartuk (additional questions asked why it was so easy), it beat freaking kings and queens (of local creatures), and yet it goes down to a single wisp. Our party can kick Stag Lord's ass, and yet it goes down to 3 wererats.

    Oh yeah, the Ancient Will-o-wisp and 2 war wisps encounter was brutal. If not el-magnifico Ekundoyo I would be doomed.

    Julius is right, you should feel that boss fight is the the pinnacle of all fights. It shouldn't be overshadowed by some random skirmishes and encounters. It's flawed design to me. But I don't feel it as much problematic as maybe it is for Julius, because I modified the game to my liking. The game has really great potential, but it's a flawed gem. There are too many little things that I don't like, that I can't enjoy the game in it's vanilla state. But I feel Owlcat will do their homework for second game and won't repeat the same mistakes.

    JuliusBorisovBelgarathMTH
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,057
    edited March 31
    "When you have to overpower the enemy it's not a challenge. It's very similar to grinding - you have to do something else to be able to do this or that encounter."

    Correct me if i an wrong, but on DOS2 you don't also spend a lot of time trying to find better gear since most stuff, including spell damage, damage to enemy armor/magicl armor and try to overpower the enemy? At least on PF:KM you don't progress "only on numbers" and your chars has individuality. From summoning a weak summon that lasts 1/2 rounds to summoning Thanadaemons(same CR of a adult red dragon - 13) or a army of soul eaters is a huge progression. New offensive spells like Ice prison, control spells like sirroco, bloodline unique abilities like Incorporeal form(undead sorc), is extremely more interesting than just inflate some numbers.

    When my kineticist learned how to make walls of his elements and then deadly earth, was a epic improvement. And note that there are a lot of enemies that you can't overpower. Spawn of Rovagug even at lv cap is extremely hard.
    ur party can kick Stag Lord's ass, and yet it goes down to 3 wererats.

    Don't underestimate your enemies. Stag Lord is just a bandit chief. You are in a cursed land where the "veil' between the real world and the first world(fey world) is much weaker. A lot of natural creatures like OwlBears are far stronger on PFKM than on P&P. and any enemy that can sneak attack, CC or summon is a high priority target on pfkm.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 20,946
    "When you have to overpower the enemy it's not a challenge. It's very similar to grinding - you have to do something else to be able to do this or that encounter."

    Correct me if i an wrong, but on DOS2 you don't also spend a lot of time trying to find better gear since most stuff, including spell damage, damage to enemy armor/magicl armor and try to overpower the enemy?

    No, that's totally a wrong impression about that game, in my opinion. You can go full naked there, - you need only skills, scrolls, food and potions. Your in-combat actions, positioning and everything that you would call strategy are the keys to successfully play D:OS 2.

    Not sure what you call individuality in this context. Characters as personalities? D:OS has them. Characters as unique builds? D:OS has those as well. I can't comment about high-level spells you mention, I just didn't get there.

    I never felt, neither in D:OS 1 or D:OS 2 that those were the games about inflating numbers. Assassin's Creed: Odyssey is about inflating numbers, not D:OS.

    But this is not about D:OS.

    My overall impression about P:K is very similar to @Cahir 's: "The game has really great potential, but it's a flawed gem. There are too many little things that I don't like, that I can't enjoy the game in its state." It's just that I don't want to start using mods because I'm discouraged by the game design. And the more I play it, the clearer those flaws are.

    SorcererV1ct0rBelgarathMTHAdam_en_tium
  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,525
    "When you have to overpower the enemy it's not a challenge. It's very similar to grinding - you have to do something else to be able to do this or that encounter."

    Correct me if i an wrong, but on DOS2 you don't also spend a lot of time trying to find better gear since most stuff, including spell damage, damage to enemy armor/magicl armor and try to overpower the enemy?

    No, that's totally a wrong impression about that game, in my opinion. You can go full naked there, - you need only skills, scrolls, food and potions. Your in-combat actions, positioning and everything that you would call strategy are the keys to successfully play D:OS 2.

    Not sure what you call individuality in this context. Characters as personalities? D:OS has them. Characters as unique builds? D:OS has those as well. I can't comment about high-level spells you mention, I just didn't get there.

    I never felt, neither in D:OS 1 or D:OS 2 that those were the games about inflating numbers. Assassin's Creed: Odyssey is about inflating numbers, not D:OS.

    But this is not about D:OS.

    My overall impression about P:K is very similar to @Cahir 's: "The game has really great potential, but it's a flawed gem. There are too many little things that I don't like, that I can't enjoy the game in its state." It's just that I don't want to start using mods because I'm discouraged by the game design. And the more I play it, the clearer those flaws are.

    I find I get my ass handed to me way more often in the D:OS games than Kingmaker. The first one being so much worse than the second and kingmaker combined. The D:OS games require even more meta-knowledge of the correct order to do things, like walk down the wrong path, boom half your party's dead before you can even get an action off. There were a lot less encounters like that for me in Kingmaker. Sure they were there, but not to the frequency of D:OS or even D:OS2.

    I don't see why everyone's putting such a huge emphasis on walking into an encounter and getting slaughtered. Just reload your damn game, that's why the saves are there. The same thing happened to me at least as often in D:OS2, and to a much more ridiculous degree in the first one, it's no different between the different games.

    I find I'm having to constantly update my gear in D:OS2, way more than Kingmaker. You have to do it at least every couple of levels, no gear lasts. At least it's better than in Assassin's Creed: Odyssey, where you have to do it every damn level. It would be nice if they had some way to upgrade your existing gear instead of having to buy all new stuff, though.

    Also for the Cragg Linnorm, take a look at the no reload run @BelgarathMTH did before he gave up. He crept up, spotted the thing, inspected it and chose not to engage it. It's also not anywhere on the scale that Firkraag was. The fight's pretty much trivialized with 2 spells. If you can't kill it due to lack of cold iron, it'd be on the ground and you could get away from it at that point.

  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,511
    "When you have to overpower the enemy it's not a challenge. It's very similar to grinding - you have to do something else to be able to do this or that encounter."

    Correct me if i an wrong, but on DOS2 you don't also spend a lot of time trying to find better gear since most stuff, including spell damage, damage to enemy armor/magicl armor and try to overpower the enemy?

    No, that's totally a wrong impression about that game, in my opinion. You can go full naked there, - you need only skills, scrolls, food and potions. Your in-combat actions, positioning and everything that you would call strategy are the keys to successfully play D:OS 2.

    Not sure what you call individuality in this context. Characters as personalities? D:OS has them. Characters as unique builds? D:OS has those as well. I can't comment about high-level spells you mention, I just didn't get there.

    I never felt, neither in D:OS 1 or D:OS 2 that those were the games about inflating numbers. Assassin's Creed: Odyssey is about inflating numbers, not D:OS.

    But this is not about D:OS.

    My overall impression about P:K is very similar to @Cahir 's: "The game has really great potential, but it's a flawed gem. There are too many little things that I don't like, that I can't enjoy the game in its state." It's just that I don't want to start using mods because I'm discouraged by the game design. And the more I play it, the clearer those flaws are.

    I find I get my ass handed to me way more often in the D:OS games than Kingmaker. The first one being so much worse than the second and kingmaker combined. The D:OS games require even more meta-knowledge of the correct order to do things, like walk down the wrong path, boom half your party's dead before you can even get an action off. There were a lot less encounters like that for me in Kingmaker. Sure they were there, but not to the frequency of D:OS or even D:OS2.

    I don't see why everyone's putting such a huge emphasis on walking into an encounter and getting slaughtered. Just reload your damn game, that's why the saves are there. The same thing happened to me at least as often in D:OS2, and to a much more ridiculous degree in the first one, it's no different between the different games.

    I find I'm having to constantly update my gear in D:OS2, way more than Kingmaker. You have to do it at least every couple of levels, no gear lasts. At least it's better than in Assassin's Creed: Odyssey, where you have to do it every damn level. It would be nice if they had some way to upgrade your existing gear instead of having to buy all new stuff, though.

    Also for the Cragg Linnorm, take a look at the no reload run @BelgarathMTH did before he gave up. He crept up, spotted the thing, inspected it and chose not to engage it. It's also not anywhere on the scale that Firkraag was. The fight's pretty much trivialized with 2 spells. If you can't kill it due to lack of cold iron, it'd be on the ground and you could get away from it at that point.

    I don't play no-reload, so I figured I'll try to beat him while I'm here. No luck. I've had high hopes I'll defeat him, because I managed to survive one or two CR15-16 encounters with my 8-9 level party, but this one was one tough bastard.

    I put emphasis on this aspect of the game, because I've had huge expectations regarding P:K, so it's natural that I'm pointing out things that I don't like in a more passionate way than usual. And since it's supposed to be one of BG spiritual successors, I'm comparing it to well... BG2.

    JuliusBorisov
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,057
    edited March 31
    Talking about update gear, my MC (dhamipr blood arcanist - modded) got Necromancer's Staff on Vordakai's tomb and i an using the same staff, almost 100 hours later, going to face Spawn of Rovagug... +3 weapon on every undead that you create is a huge bonus. I din't fond any better staff yet.

    Except some metamagic rods and a figurine that allow me to summon a Ancient Wyvern and a cloak that increases by one point per dice some of my spells. I found a rod who increases necromancy DC by 2 points but i an not using since it only works for spells up to tier 6, so it can't increase my Finger of Death DC.

    For melee warriors, incorruptible Petal dealing increased 2d6 sonic damage and having +5 enhancement is so powerful. 3 attacks per round dealing 15-34 damage or 45-102 damage per round. I plan to use legendary proportions, holy aura, haste, stoneskin, and everything on this and on my archer, while my casters deal with the Spawn of Rovagug's minions. Since he has 36 SR if i remember correctly. A lv 20 sorcerer with greater spell penetration has only 40% of chance on hitting him with any spell who allow SR.

  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,525
    Cahir wrote: »
    I don't play no-reload, so I figured I'll try to beat him while I'm here. No luck. I've had high hopes I'll defeat him, because I managed to survive one or two CR15-16 encounters with my 8-9 level party, but this one was one tough bastard.

    I put emphasis on this aspect of the game, because I've had huge expectations regarding P:K, so it's natural that I'm pointing out things that I don't like in a more passionate way than usual. And since it's supposed to be one of BG spiritual successors, I'm comparing it to well... BG2.

    Just have both resist/protection from fire, communal up with one or 2 more protection from fire communals in reserve, since those only absorb so much damage and one party member with a cold iron weapon and you should be good. Throw in your standard buffs like haste, prayer, etc. Spread your party out a bit so the fire blast won't hit your mages/rear guard. It'll try to shoot the fire at the ones that have engaged it in melee, so if you move your back row off to the sides it'll miss them. Whoever engages it first, should also be fighting defensively and have good AC.

    Somebody asked about getting Val to do more damage. She's mainly intended as a tank, but there's some feats you can take to start pushing her damage up. Weapon Specialization's a no-brainer. Penetrating Strike and Greater Penetrating strike will eventually get her damage up (not so much increase damage, but ignore damage resistance), but you need 11/16 fighter levels to get them. So if you want more damage on her, keep her a pure fighter. She also has enough charisma to pull of dazzling display if you put points into persuasion. Not a damage thing, but something else to make her useful.

  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,321
    My 2 cents: "Just reload" is not a good answer to poor encounter design.

    Now - I'm not saying all of the encounters previously mentioned are bad in design, but the idea that reloading as a tool to mitigate design isnt a good one.

    I also really appreciate the idea that some of those "The clues were right there!" folks miss out on the fact that those clues, in and of themselves, do not tell a new player to avoid doing something. In many cases, they're an incentive to figure out what's going on. When I see a burned corpse by the Old Sycamore Tree, my first instinct isnt "Whoa. Better not see what that's about!". It's to go over and investigate.

    If the game wants to ward me off from doing something like that, then the clues need to be far more obvious - something like my companions chiming in to say "I dont think this is a good idea. I have a really bad feeling about camping here".

    The clues given to that encounter could be identical to the bandits you fight on the other side of the tree. The alchemist could be the one who burned the body. That bandit encounter is right on par with where the player is supposed to be at that time.

    JuliusBorisovCahir
  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,525
    My 2 cents: "Just reload" is not a good answer to poor encounter design.

    Now - I'm not saying all of the encounters previously mentioned are bad in design, but the idea that reloading as a tool to mitigate design isnt a good one.

    I also really appreciate the idea that some of those "The clues were right there!" folks miss out on the fact that those clues, in and of themselves, do not tell a new player to avoid doing something. In many cases, they're an incentive to figure out what's going on. When I see a burned corpse by the Old Sycamore Tree, my first instinct isnt "Whoa. Better not see what that's about!". It's to go over and investigate.

    If the game wants to ward me off from doing something like that, then the clues need to be far more obvious - something like my companions chiming in to say "I dont think this is a good idea. I have a really bad feeling about camping here".

    The clues given to that encounter could be identical to the bandits you fight on the other side of the tree. The alchemist could be the one who burned the body. That bandit encounter is right on par with where the player is supposed to be at that time.

    It is when you take it as a lesson and think about what went wrong and how you can do better. Also it's not necessarily encounter design, just not picking up on queues or charging on ahead or realizing an enemy has a specific vulnerability or damage type it uses a lot, or even just realizing you're underleveled. Any game that truly embraces exploration is going to let you wander into encounters you're underleveled for and you will get your ass kicked at some point. Baldur's Gate 1/2, D:OS1/2, NWN, Fallout, Assassin's Creed, some of the Elder Scrolls games, and most other games that have exploration, all have risk of wandering into areas where you just can't win if you go into them at a low level. If there's no risk, it's not really exploring, just a walk in the woods. Kingmaker is by far not even the most brutal in this regard.

    Kamigoroshi
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 20,946
    edited March 31
    Of all the games you mentioned, Baldur's Gate 1/2, D:OS1/2, NWN, Fallout, Assassin's Creed, Elder Scrolls games, P:K IS the most brutal in my opinion.

    I promise I won't come back to the same idea, but if the lesson is the same every time: i.e. this is too early for you, come back later, - then it's encounter design.

  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,321
    edited March 31
    My 2 cents: "Just reload" is not a good answer to poor encounter design.

    Now - I'm not saying all of the encounters previously mentioned are bad in design, but the idea that reloading as a tool to mitigate design isnt a good one.

    I also really appreciate the idea that some of those "The clues were right there!" folks miss out on the fact that those clues, in and of themselves, do not tell a new player to avoid doing something. In many cases, they're an incentive to figure out what's going on. When I see a burned corpse by the Old Sycamore Tree, my first instinct isnt "Whoa. Better not see what that's about!". It's to go over and investigate.

    If the game wants to ward me off from doing something like that, then the clues need to be far more obvious - something like my companions chiming in to say "I dont think this is a good idea. I have a really bad feeling about camping here".

    The clues given to that encounter could be identical to the bandits you fight on the other side of the tree. The alchemist could be the one who burned the body. That bandit encounter is right on par with where the player is supposed to be at that time.

    It is when you take it as a lesson and think about what went wrong and how you can do better. Also it's not necessarily encounter design, just not picking up on queues or charging on ahead or realizing an enemy has a specific vulnerability or damage type it uses a lot, or even just realizing you're underleveled. Any game that truly embraces exploration is going to let you wander into encounters you're underleveled for and you will get your ass kicked at some point. Baldur's Gate 1/2, D:OS1/2, NWN, Fallout, Assassin's Creed, some of the Elder Scrolls games, and most other games that have exploration, all have risk of wandering into areas where you just can't win if you go into them at a low level. If there's no risk, it's not really exploring, just a walk in the woods. Kingmaker is by far not even the most brutal in this regard.

    Flatly, I disagree. It's simiarlish to "Oh. I rolled a 2 on my lockpicking attempt. Time to save scum". That is a poor design choice that relies upon reloading as a crutch.

    I'm fine with exploration. I'm also fine with running into encounters I am unprepared for. I am fine with reloading if I lose. I am less okay with having 5 encounters in a row in a dungeon, only to lose the 6th because it is totally unlike the previous 5 - and then needing to reload and try 5 more times, or reload and rest to prepare based on game metaknowledge. Owlcat themselves have tacitly accepted this as an issue by having to put camping supplies in certain dungeons because the encounter necessitates it, and the vast majority of gamers were unable to suss out the coming mechanical requirements.

    Look - I get it. PF:KM is a good game. It's not perfect, and it does have some flaws. The difficulty aspect is at once both a benefit to the game but also a hindrance. All games that are designed to be above average in difficulty suffer from this duality. It's hard to walk the line between hard and unfair. PF sometimes falters. Other games do too. It's entirely fair to be critical of PF when that happens.

    JuliusBorisovBelgarathMTH
  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,525
    Of all the games you mentioned, Baldur's Gate 1/2, D:OS1/2, NWN, Fallout, Assassin's Creed, Elder Scrolls games, P:K IS the most brutal in my opinion.

    I promise I won't come back to the same idea, but if the lesson is the same every time: i.e. this is too early for you, come back later, - then it's encounter design.

    Wow, for me D:OS is the worst in this regard, with the first one being worse than Kingmaker and D:OS2 combined. Wander out of the West town gate in the first one and you're dead. I'd even say the BG games are worse or at least on the same level, they're just so much more well documented and everyone's been warned about Basilisks, Beholders and Ilithids. I think people are also forgetting the EEs cleaned up some of that, but even the early releases of the EEs had stuff like running into a Vampiric wolf right outside Candle Keep.
    Flatly, I disagree. It's simiarlish to "Oh. I rolled a 2 on my lockpicking attempt. Time to save scum". That is a poor design choice that relies upon reloading as a crutch.

    I'm fine with exploration. I'm also fine with running into encounters I am unprepared for. I am fine with reloading if I lose. I am less okay with having 5 encounters in a row in a dungeon, only to lose the 6th because it is totally unlike the previous 5 - and then needing to reload and try 5 more times, or reload and rest to prepare based on game metaknowledge. Owlcat themselves have tacitly accepted this as an issue by having to put camping supplies in certain dungeons because the encounter necessitates it, and the vast majority of gamers were unable to suss out the coming mechanical requirements.

    Look - I get it. PF:KM is a good game. It's not perfect, and it does have some flaws. The difficulty aspect is at once both a benefit to the game but also a hindrance. All games that are designed to be above average in difficulty suffer from this duality. It's hard to walk the line between hard and unfair. PF sometimes falters. Other games do too. It's entirely fair to be critical of PF when that happens.

    I think we're on the same page on reloading. Don't save scum every roll, but if you really get your butt kicked because your outclassed or got into an area over your head, reload your game. I am kinda surprised so many people had trouble with the dungeon at the end of chapter 4, my first run I went in with like 30 rations and nobody had told me about it, but I caught on I was going so far away from my kingdom's core I stocked up on supplies first. The fact that previously you fight the defaced sisters and soul eaters before you head into that dungeon, so I realized I needed to have lots of restoration spells memorized and ready to fight undead. But, adding some rations was probably the right call.

    I'm not saying the game is perfect, either. I just think it's being unfairly singled out for doing the exact things so many other games do.

    BallpointManbleusteelkanisatha
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,321
    edited March 31
    I'm not saying the game is perfect, either. I just think it's being unfairly singled out for doing the exact things so many other games do.

    Fair - but we are in a thread devoted to PF:KM, so it's rather a lot more likely that PF's difficulty curve will be discussed here rather than BG. Also, while BG isnt perfect in this regard, there's an important distinction between BG1 & 2's challenging encounters and PF:KM - BG's AI is waaaaaaaaaaay worse. There are plenty of high level mage fights in BG2 that are extremely easy due to the first 3 or 4 casts being defensive in nature, which you can tear down just as quickly as they put up.

    To be clear: This is a positive in PF:KM's column. I'd rather the AI be good than it be poor.

    Now, if we're talking BG + SCS, I'll agree that the difficulty curve is closer (I'd still say PF:KM is considerably harder - but a lot of that comes down to the opportunity to cheese a lot of hard encounter in BG).


    One of the things I personally found challenging in PF:KM was the emphasis on speed and efficiency due to the ticking clock combined with the fatigue and encumbrance system. I can honestly say I've NEVER had 30 supplies on my character. Ever. I think I take 12 tops for a dungeon (now, on my second playthrough that has the advantage of metaknowledge). 6 for a rest at the entryway to the big dungeon, and 6 for a rest halfway through.

    I'm also not saying the above is a bad design. I rather like the fact that I have to weigh additional rests vs being quick because I'm on the clock. That's good design (in my opinion) - but it does lead to more potentially frustrating encounters.

    JuliusBorisovDrHappyAngry
  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,525
    In all fairness the game keeps getting compared to BG and D:OS games, and it makes sense to compare them. Kingmaker's a spiritual successor to the BG games and D:OS is a recent contemporary RPG.

    I dig the time management aspect, as well.

    KamigoroshiSorcererV1ct0r
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,331
    Cahir wrote: »
    Anyone here soloed the game?





    I watched this video and now wanna do a solo run.
    Anyone here made a solo run?
    Does the turn based mod works well with multiple summons AND modded classes like Arcanist?
    Should i go Arcanist(mod) or Sorcerer?

    Mods are working just fine with TB. I don't play Arcanist myself, but I installed Call of the Wild and a Touch of Magic and both are working as intended. I don't use summons that much, so I can't comment if multiple summons are allowed. I only used summon lesser elemental couple of times and wasn't that much impressed. As for which class to chose, I've chosen Sage Sorcerer and I'm really pleased with the performance. He's my main offensive caster, and he's doing his job flawlessly. I was disappointed at the beginning for not noticing Sage Sorcerer cannot take Dragon Disciple prestige class, but now I got over it and enjoying my charname.

    Here's, what I think, a perfect party for me (with a small caveat):

    Charname -> He's a sage sorcerer, and he's my main offensive caster. I tried to pick various types of spells, not limiting myself to only damage dealing ones and it turned out interesting. I can employ various different tactics.

    Valerie -> this is the only party member I'm not fully pleased with. She's very competent fighter, but I'm disappointed with the damage she deals. How do you guys propose to develop her to inflict slightly more damage. Compared to Amiri she's a bit of a lackluster in this regard. I now she's defensive type of fighter, but I need her to do a bit more damage. She's using long sword and a heavy shield in my game.

    Amiri -> a monster, her crits can do over 50 damage. I love her. She's now still using her default sword, but I can't wait I find something better.

    Ekundayo -> oh boy, this guy and his dog are both OP. It's unbelievable. I love it! Doggy can trip almost everyone with each hit! And Ekun can shot three times! This is a beast, truly.

    Tristan -> very competent cleric, my main healer and support caster. Very good choice.

    Octavia -> she's my second offensive caster and a thief. I've made her Arcane Trickster and I'm happy with her performance.

    to answer your question about valerie, if you dont mind you can do a little bit of class dipping to get that damage up;

    take 1 level of Vivisectionist, such a strong class because
    A ) because of mutagen, you can boost your STR by 4 for 10 minutes and it only lowers INT by 2
    B ) you also get a free 1d6 sneak attack

    then you need to take some team work feats;

    -outflank ( makes it so when you flank you get +4 instead of +2 )
    -precise strike ( deal an extra 1d6 stackable precision damage on a flanked target )
    -seize the moment ( whenever another char gets a critical hit on a target you get a free attack of opportunity on said target, can happen more than once per round if you have combat reflexes )
    -combat reflexes ( extra attacks of opportunity based on DEX, plus you can do it flat footed )

    now with those top 4 feats ( excluding combat reflexes ) they are team work feats so valerie and amiri should all 4 of them, their damage output will increase dramatically especially with that 1 level of vivisectionist

    i had guys at level 5/7 dealing over 50 damage on critical hits with master work falcatas using the above, just those 4 feats and that 1 class level will make your melee guys deal an extra 2d6+2 damage in melee while flanking a target

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,057
    Of all the games you mentioned, Baldur's Gate 1/2, D:OS1/2, NWN, Fallout, Assassin's Creed, Elder Scrolls games, P:K IS the most brutal in my opinion.

    On Daggerfall, my first mission on mages guild was to explore a dungeon where enemies was so strong that my weapon couldn't do any damage to then and the failure on that quest lead me lose reputation, be expelled and have to face harsher quests to be in mages guild again.

    On Morrowind, i had meet a Golden Saint while i was far bellow lv 10. You can enter even the Vulcan area at lv 1 with a levitation potion.

    Only Oblivion started with the idea that you will never face enemies that you should avoid. And the high level gameplay on oblivion is unplayable. Xivilais requiring more than 70 Claymore hits to be downed, Bandits with Daedric armor, to name few problems...

    I honestly love this encounters because it makes me wonder what i will gonna find when i explore a new location. And if i find a strategy that can work vs this enemies, i usually an rewarded with loot that i can sell to improve my barony OR use in one of my characters. More XP to level up, etc. I don't see this "difficulty spikes" as something broken, i see as part of the game's world.

    And hell, recently i played Gothic 2 returning(returning is a fan made addon that adds like 200 hours to the game and is bigger in size than G2 + NotR) and Gothic 2 already is a hard game. Returning made it extremely harder. That game yes, had some BS parts like 2 archdemons that can only be damaged if one is near another... Dragon fight on NotR is not hard, but on Returning, dragons has regeneration, summons, can cast circle 6 magic(highest magic on Gothic universe) and only by being 300m near Ice/Fire Dragon's Lair, you take constant cold/heat damage.

  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,511
    Finished troll occupied dwarven ruins. The most interesting location so far, even if nowhere near to iconic BG, BG2 or IWD dungeons. Im really disapointed with Tartuccio, a.k.a Tartuk, though. He was very easy to best and only troll leader was a real challange in final battle of this quest. Funny thing, found a great płatne mail, usable only by good character. It made me realized that the only character that can wear is... main character. Both Amiri and Val ar neutralne, and Octavia or Ekun would need to take Heavy Armor specialization to use it. And that's another flaw of the game. Łąck of NPC diversity. If I want to have good aligned fighter there is.. noone to choose. I would happily trade Val for other fighter, but no luck finding one.

    JuliusBorisov
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,057
    13oEqf6.png


    I saw this rod on rpg codex and really wanna know. How i can get this? Spawn of Rovagug who has 36 SR meaning that my main arcanist with 24 spell penetration has only 40% of hitting him will not only hit him but will hit him with a empowered and maximized spell. That is a ludicrous buff. Horrid Wilting for eg, will deal 180 damage. With 3 casts is 540 damage in 3 rounds in a huge area of effect. Even if it can't be used against the hardest PFKM enemy, it can be used to cheese the wild hunt span on end game.

    bleusteelsarevok57
  • bleusteelbleusteel Member Posts: 512
    13oEqf6.png


    I saw this rod on rpg codex and really wanna know. How i can get this? Spawn of Rovagug who has 36 SR meaning that my main arcanist with 24 spell penetration has only 40% of hitting him will not only hit him but will hit him with a empowered and maximized spell. That is a ludicrous buff. Horrid Wilting for eg, will deal 180 damage. With 3 casts is 540 damage in 3 rounds in a huge area of effect. Even if it can't be used against the hardest PFKM enemy, it can be used to cheese the wild hunt span on end game.

    It’s the artisan masterpiece item from Irlene.

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

    BallpointManKamigoroshi
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