I've played fighter/thief and I don't see how a swash could even stand a chance.
There are various aspects to consider for that comparison.
Swash can get OBSCENE damage bonuses at very high levels, enough to kill even most bosses (unmodded) in a single round with the right equipment. Those enemies are usually immune to backstab, as are many powerful enemies in general; liches, beholders, dragons etc. all cannot be backstabbed. I find backstab quite overrated, though that may have to do with my mods. YMMV, as always.
Personally, I like Swash for the simple reason of dualing it into a fighter. Swash->Fighter is my favorite Thief character, largely because it's so little Thief and so much Fighter. Essentially, you end up with a Fighter that has some combat/AC bonuses and can open locks/find traps. All I want, really.
Agreed! Only I prefer detect illusion. Right now my bg1 swash(5)/fighter(8) is rocking:
-11 AC THACO: 1/5 Damage: 18-25 both hands Unbuffed
He has Crit for 50 damage already. Walk into a room of 3 greater dopplegangers and see through their mirror image, then proceed to rip them apart without damage.
Throw on the greenstone amulet, along with his 90% fire immunity and 25% magic immunity, and there is almost nothing that can touch him.
I know that a buffed dwarven defender can solo Sarevok. Going to see if a swash/fighter can do the same.
Overall the swash/fighter has just made a new fighter kit. Which plays out really well, it is like the two were meant for each other.
my first ever solo of bgee was with a swashbuckler, and I took out sarevok's whole team ( with a level 10 swashbuckler) so your character should be able to slice 'n' dice him no sweat
Realized I have not played with a swash yet, and wondering which way to go...
I like dual-classing, in this case into fighter, and see 3 obvious choices: 1) dual at 5th, to enjoy full benefits through all games of the saga. 2) dual at 10th, to get full run at thief skills, extra hit die, and still have no impact on fighter max level 3) dual at 25th, for Use Any Item (24) plus extra +1 from kit at 25, highest level that a fighter can regain
or
4) play non-human and go to lvl 40
Option (3) looks interesting on paper, but I doubt will be much fun to play, unless your are really into the idea of transforming towards godhood at the end of the game - for a completionist with a full part, the dual occurs in SoA, but probably chapter 6, and regaining the dual will be pretty much end-game. Smacking around Carsomyr with fighter HLA/attacks, and a swash bonus may be enough fun to close out an epic play through though. Also, soloing would gain the levels back much earlier, can you hit the level cap in SoA?
Option (2) seems my typical play through, optimizing the dual for where the first class maximizes benefit before levels get expensive. Actually, lvl 11 is also a good option (220k), and may result in slightly more xp for pick locks/disarm traps? Downside is that while the thief levels are cheap, the later fighter levels are not, and it would be relatively deep into SoA before the dual was reactivated at around 1 million xp.
Option (1) sounds like the more balanced experience, but do you get enough swashbuckler to get the flavor, or does this just end up as another fighter kit, still requiring a regular thief in the party? This option also has better HP as the con bonus for fighters apparently applies only to fighter hit dice, not all hit dice (ambiguous wording on the con bonus).
Option (4) sounds interesting as we get to play another race and get the full swashbuckler experience - but for a fighter-type, not getting the extra APR would definitely annoy me. And do the thief levels bring significant enough benefit after maxing the basic thief skills? Use Any Item is nice, but HLAs are otherwise underwhelming, apart from maybe the traps. UAI also really benefits from the fighter weapon proficiencies that would be lacking in a straight swash build.
I am currently inclined towards option (2), but I think it is a good sign of the versatility of the game that I do not see a clear and easy choice - all must balance the benefits against the drawbacks
It's my favourite kit, in fact it's hard not to play that every runthrough.
Once you get the low AC, it makes scouting, trap finding ect a breeze. Leave the party having a nap, and run off and have a look see, you can take a few hits from traps/enemies and lead anything back to be slaughtered if need be, either by your traps or the lazy buggers chilling by the fire.
And with CF/Belm, the CF spell seems to work on anybody/thing. Right through TOB as well.
I should try a solo BG2, done quite a bit on my own but have a party for the interaction more than anything on a lot of it.
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Level 40 Swashbuckler with Carsomyr +6 and Belt of Hill Giant Strength has THAC0 0 during Whirlwind Attack. That's going to miss a lot in the endgame.
Swash get THAC0 of 10, then -8 hit bonus, -3 bonus with strength 19, -6 from Carsomyr, +4 penalty during whirlwinds, so THAC0 total of -2 by my math. Give them a better belt, some gauntlets, a holy sumbol for +1 stength (after they can equip any item)... etc and they wont miss with their 10 attacks per round allowing an extra 40 (-4 per attack) damage per round for the a THAC0 only 6 worse than a fighter using greater whirlwind!
You're forgetting the non-proficiency penalty. Even with UAI, your proficiencies are limited to thief weapons.
Carsomyr is a fine weapon, but not so much for its offensive power. Really, you're better off hitting your opponents with weapons you know how to use better. Like, say Angurvadal +5. More damage, amplified further by specialization and the strength bonus, a better chance to hit, and you can dual-wield it with something good for more attacks when you're not whirling.
And why do you have a holy symbol that the cleric it belongs to isn't using? Did you raise them to epic levels and then drop them from the party?
I've played a halfling swashbuckler through the game ... as the leader of the second iteration of my all-werewolf party. Incredible AC, passive 100% magic resistance, massive regeneration, and more. Also three hard-hitting attacks per round. even when not whirling.
That's the endgame, though. Early on, especially in BG1, I would have been better off with a fighter/thief. The ability to use heavy armor and giant strength potions in combat is not to be underestimated.
Sorry, no can do. Even attempting to handle the Big Metal Unit while any character that could equip it is shapeshifted crashes the game.* Too much awesome, clearly. My pack dumped the cursed thing in the pocket plane where nobody would ever be able to find it.
Unless 2.6 fixes the shapeshift crashes, in which case the game becomes that much better.
* Non-druid werewolves are based on a mod component that turns shapeshifting abilities into tokens. Those tokens can be passed around to a few classes despite their descriptions, and rogues with UAI are one of the options. The problem, then, is that attempting to equip two different items with animation change effects leads to the game being unable to decide which effect should apply and hanging. Just picking one of them up from the inventory causes the game to try to figure out how characters would change with it equipped, and there it goes.
And if you edited the save to equip both items at once, the game would fail to load that save. No tricking the system on this one.
The real question is why was a 5 year old thread, brought back from the dead and revived?
I don't know the answer to that one but reading the thread has made me want to give swashbuckling a try. In the past I have always relied on backstabbing when playing a thief but now I am keen to roll up a new character, buckle on a swash and explore the Sword Coast once more.
Good class. Not so great in duals, contrary to the opinions upthread.
Swashy is bad for mage dual at 10 as you don't get that much HP compared to fighter dual anyway, the thaco/dmg boni are very lackluster for a class that doesn't even backstab, and your thieving skills are locked for the rest of the game. Very poor trade for some better equipment restrictions, a straight class bard or of course, the mage/thief multi is waaaaaaaaay better. If I was gonna dual a thief>mage I'd take any other kit, even the vanilla, as you can abuse backstab more than +2 hit/damage, and if all you care about is largely better equipment restrictions on a mage (i.e. like Imoen and Nalia) you'd be way better served just taking a fighter first class or any of the other kits.
Dualled to fighter you again lose the backstab mod. If you do it late (25t/26f) you are somewhat comparable to a kensai/thief....except you'll be missing backstabs, assassination, and a HUGE (~70 or 80 IIRC) amount of HP. I've compared k/t and s/f several times and k/t is both more flexible (can dual at 13 or 24, while swashy is pretty much pointless to not take as much as possible before dual) and is stronger in the end. Way stronger, due to abuse of backstab modifier.
And you can do cheeky stuff like dual;ing to cleric too, just to gain some thieving skills, but the multi will be way better, again, because the thief side still levels and gains HLAs/upgraded traps. Swashy just doesn't add enough by itself to justify dualling the kit
Instead, using them as a pure class they aren't terrible, eventually getting up the point they are similar to a (weaker at all points) f/t multi. The reasons for doing so would be simplicity, using a favorite race (elf gets further +1 thaco on swords and bows and another +1 thaco on ranged from 19 DEX, Half-Orc starting abilities, etc) and to abuse their high amount of thieving skill points in order to gain more utility through trap laying (any party can benefit from traps on a thief that still levels up!), pickpocket, or detect illusion earlier in the game than it comes along for multis.
Eventually you get UAI and start stacking on +attack weapons or casting Black Blade from scrolls combined with I. Haste or WW attack and make some of the ground back up, but a f/t is always gonna be better - better HP, more attacks, more fighter HLAs, etc.
Swashys do make good BG1 ranged attackers and are more useful in that game due to leveling curve than a multi-class for thieving duties. They actually make a good partner for a bard or F/M or M/T sitting in the backline slinging arrows then.
It’s a shame rogues have a worse thaco table than priests, it doesn’t make much sense and I like that they share the same table in later D&D editions (both archetypes are not dedicated fighter types but should practice alongside their other skills and be better than the average mage), this would have made the swashie even better as a thief/fighter hybrid that still lacks APR
As others have said, it's a solid kit, but it's ideal to set up for a dual. Especially to mage, and that's a good first option for a solo playthrough if you've never done it before.
Swashbuckler is something of a slightly tanky thief, is the best way to think about its strategic combat role -- very similar to the fighter/thief multi. It can't be your main tank, but it can sit on the frontlines beside Korgan, Mazzy or Keldorn. As such, if you are going to single class it, it's best to go with a shorty -- dwarf, halfling, or gnome for the bonus saving throws.
There are some diminishing returns to high level thieves compared to the other three classes, but there's still some advantage to being able to maximize skills like set traps and detect illusion, both of these are very strong at high levels.
Losing backstab isn't actually that bad from a powergaming standpoint. Backstab is a ton of fun, but it's actually not efficient damage dealing. Dual wielding for BG2 is probably the way to go for a Swashbuckler, just given the excellent loadout of items with either permanent effects or on-hit effects. Daggers, longswords, katanas, clubs, there are lots of options.
Duals shouldn't be compared to multis, IMO, unless really, really high level duals: they should be compared to other duals and single-class kits. Basically, are the slightly lower levels in the main class and lack of a race/kit worth the gain from the dual? Otherwise you get really weird comparisons where a Dual is getting 9th level spells at slightly past 3m experience while the Multi is just getting their first 7th level spell.
In the case of Swashbuckler/Mage, there's 4-5 comparisons: Mage kits, Thief/Mage, Assassin/Mage, Bounty Hunter/Mage, and Shadow Dancer/Mage. I don't think Fighter/Mage is a fair comparison: you're probably going Swashbuckler in the first place to have Thief skills, so anything without thief skills are going to be discounted.
So, first: Mage kits. Assuming level 11 duals for everything (the next breakpoint is level 13 for x4 backstab modifiers for thieves), you're losing a -2 bonus to all spell saves of a certain school and 1 spell per level and possibly Gnome or Elf bonuses (ha) for 12 additional health on average (2 at 1st level, and 1d6 vs 1d4 is only 1 HP on average until level 10), access to Thief weapons, 290 skill points (not counting DEX or Human skill), +3 bonus to AC, +2 to hit and +2 to damage, and Specialization in melee weapons.
I'd say that Swashbuckler 11/Mage is at least comparable to a regular kitted mage, though losing the specialized spell kinda hurts when you first get a spell of a new level. You'll be short 220k experience, so roughly 2/3 of a level for a mage. On the other hand, you have enough Thief points to throw things in Pick Pockets, Detect Illusions, or the classic Find Traps/Open Locks if you don't want to use any of the NPC Thieves. Or Nalia. Set Traps is also usable, since the 2d6 poison for 3 rounds... doesn't seem like it has a save. Huh. The more you know.
Alright. Time for comparisons to the other Thief kits.
Vanilla Thief/Mage: you're trading the ability to backstab at x3 for +3 to AC, +2 to hit and damage, and Specialization in melee weapons. This comes down to how you intend you position your Mage: if you're willing to do Mislead cheese, backstabs are probably better, though it means you're definitely in melee range when the fight starts. The thing that really sticks out to me for Swashbucklers are the returning throwing daggers: Swashbuckler gets +3 to hit and +4 to damage with something like Firetooth Dagger. Considering that Imoen could hit fairly consistently with her own terrible Thief/Mage THAC0, this should allow a Swashbuckler/Mage to be a good secondary ranged damage option.
Assassin/Mage: this one is tricky. The tradeoff this time is ability to backstab at x3 and Poison Weapon for +3 to AC, +1 to hit and damage, Specialization in melee weapons, and 100 Thief points. The question for me is Poison Weapon vs the Thief points: you're likely only going to be maxing 2 skills vs 3 a Swashbuckler could. On the one hand, you can just potion scum to get pickpocket scores and other things, but... I think I'd say this is Assassin/Mage favored, just because of how darn strong Poison Weapon is: pair it with Greater Malison, and any caster you can poison is basically down for 3 rounds.
Bounty Hunter/Mage: Ability to backstab at x3 and Set Special Snare (x3) for +3 to AC, +2 to hit and damage, Specialization in melee weapons, and 35 Thief points (you lose 50 from leveling, but gain +15 to Set Traps). You're definitely going to be maxing Set Traps, and that leaves you with enough to max two skills I think. The potential to have ranged traps that Hold a target for 5 rounds is... almost definitely better than the numbers a Swashbuckler can give.
Shadow Dancer/Mage: x2 Backstab, Hide in Plain Sight, Shadowstep x2, -1 bonus to all saving throws, for +3 to AC, +2 to hit and damage, Specialization in melee weapons, and 40 Thief points, and ability to Set Traps. To really use Hide in Plain Sight, you're basically going to have to throw all your Thief points into Move Silently/Hide in Shadows: if you put 100 points in both, I think you should have a 100% chance to stealth outside of environmental penalties, leaving you with... approximately 80-100 points. So you'll be short on other Thief skills, but you have Hide in Plain Sight. I honestly don't think these two can be fairly compared, since they're going to have drastically different playstyles: Shadow Dancer is a stupidly defensive Mage that can't really act as the Thief of the group, while the Swashbuckler can still fulfill all the roles of a Thief in a group with points to spare.
--
So... this surprised me quite a bit. I do prefer Swash/Mage to either Mage kits outside maybe Wild Mage and Thief/Mage, but I think it suffers in comparison to Assassin/Mage and Bounty Hunter/Mage. Maybe another thing to try is 2 Speed Weapons, Enchanted Weapon and Improved Haste to get to 8 APR with a better THAC0 and damage... But I don't typically use this style, and I'm ill-prepared to judge it.
A note on trap-setting for dual and multi-classed thieves: The number of daily uses you get depends on your thief level. The effect depends on your level averaged between classes. A thief 11-mage 20 dual class gets 3/day traps, with the level 16 effects (3d8+5 missile, 4d8+2 fire).
And yes, there's no save for the damage. Only the special effects (instant death on the level 21+ trap, slow/hold/bubble on the BH special snare) and the HLA exploding trap fireball have saves.
I personally play a self-adjusted game, where every Dart in the game benefits from the Strength damage bonus just as every other thrown weapon (because to me, it's not that much of an overpower; maybe early on but the low damage dice balances it out imo); so I love the Swashbuckler as a single class - but also as a dual into Mage at level 11 for that extra 3 THAC0 and Damage.
A 19 Strength with my adjustments, gives Darts a total of +7 (Strength) +3 (Swashbuckler) = +10 Damage, stuck at 3 APR; for example, Biter (returning Dart available from SoD import) does 1d3 +2; with the bonuses it does 13-15 damage each attack (39-45). For comparison, Boomerang Dagger (returning throwing dagger) does a stupid 2d4+2 damage, for 14-20 damage twice a round (28-40) -- but if you switch that dagger to melee it currently "bugged" to keep its 2 APR, pairing it with a speed weapon and you have 4 APR instead of 3. So Darts do a little more than throwing dagger because of the extra APR - but not bustedly so at higher levels.
So, for me, dualing Swashbuckler over to Mage - lets me use Darts as a main weapon on a Mage and actually be beneficial to the group instead of having to spam cast magic all the time. Or, if I want to have fun, I can play a Dart-wielding Thief and get 1 less APR than if I played a Scim-Short Sword (Belm+Kundane) or Dagger-ShortSword (Boomerang/Fireooth and Kundane) pure Swashbuckler and eventually reach crazy damage and THAC0 bonuses.
A note on trap-setting for dual and multi-classed thieves: The number of daily uses you get depends on your thief level. The effect depends on your level averaged between classes. A thief 11-mage 20 dual class gets 3/day traps, with the level 16 effects (3d8+5 missile, 4d8+2 fire).
And yes, there's no save for the damage. Only the special effects (instant death on the level 21+ trap, slow/hold/bubble on the BH special snare) and the HLA exploding trap fireball have saves.
Also I had to make a comment -- I don't think this information is correct? Because it is highly recommended for Bounty Hunters wanting to keep their Hold Traps and not go into the non-damaging traps, to dual out of BH at level 11-15 and their trap eternally will stay at the Hold version and not take into any consideration their second class. Or is this referring only to Set Snare and not Set Special Snare? I don't ever use normal Thief traps (too much planning/luring to get to work, I like being able to throw a medieval grenade with a BH XD)
I just beat the game with a Swash. They arent bad as they can handle frontline and trap/open locks. Mostly have to just use them for damage behind a tank after Bg1 though.
Swashbuckler is one of the easiest solo runs. It almost feels like cheating, they are that powerful and is the reason why I rarely play them anymore. No kidding as long as I have played I have only ever solo, no reloaded a few single classes and one was a Swashbuckler. I didn't do it at the time but it is the only single class that can be unhittable kinda, I didn't know about it until later. With UAI, innate negative AC, every damage type AC can be at -24. Which I think is unhittable by any character in the game, no I don't remember who figured out that -24 was unhittable. I certainly didn't, while I am not horrible at math I am nowhere near awesome. Maybe one of the older forumers can remember the actual thread, and math involved.
Hmm, gotta say that it doesn't matter, this class is beyond powerful as a solo class without an unhittable AC. What you can do with it is almost wrong. Firetooth main hand, Scarlet Ninja-To with UAI and just items you can have 8 attacks per round almost with just items in ToB. Save scrolls and just cut down everyone in the Oasis. Use scrolls and you will understand why the class is so overpowered.
The first class I soloed the game with was an Undead Hunter, not bad. Second class was F/M/T, yeah much better. Third class was a Swashbuckler, soloing it feels like you are running through the game. The only solo class that used to be as easy, or maybe I should say as quick and easy, was the C/R but unfortunately someone decided to crush those dreams. Sigh. Those were the days.
How does a solo Swashbuckler survive mages and clerics? You may end up with great AC (although you are running around with much less impressive AC for a large part of the game), but if I tried a solo no-reload run I imagine I'd probably die to paralysis, stun, maze, damage spells, etc.. and you have no way to bring down PFMW except (limited) scrolls of breach or just waiting, I guess?
Horror type spells have caused me more start again moments than anything else. Most of the more dangerous ones can be mitigated in the beginning with liberal application of the ability of a sword that can be collected early in the graveyard. Until UAI or Firkraag's lair there aren't many good responses to fear. Not good but can be worked around. Invisibility potions can get you a sword that makes you immune to hold, verry, verry useful, and that happens in the verry beginning of the game. Really, after UAI it is not an issue. Ring of Air is your best friend at this point, can't bash you with spells if they can't target you.
Late SoA or ToB there will never be an issue.
No, not a fan of Breach for a thief, not needed at all anyway but there is this one wand... Traps can eat through mages, some it is not possible so use wands or scrolls. Wand of Cloudkill is a good antimage thingy.
Maybe I am the only one who does this but Ring of the Ram, Invisibility/Hide in Shadows, and thief traps combined can kill almost any mage in the game. Being completely forthright, that combo can almost completely decimate ToB with any rogue. There are only a few that are uncouth enough to not let you set up before they introduce themselves. Saradush, grr! Luckily enough, Gromnir's pet spell slingers ar not that hard to beat.
Swash is better than average but not close to FMT or blade in terms of survivability and utility. It's true swashes become essentially unhittable in melee once you get through the long slow slog to 3-4 million XP, but FMT or blade are essentially invulnerable throughout the entirety of BG2 whether or not they are hittable in melee.
Isn't an unmodified roll of '20' always a hit though? That's how I understood it worked anyway...
I think it has to do with the damage specific AC modifiers. Years ago when the thread was posted I tried it and I don’t remember getting hit at all. Made me much more conscious about what type of damage each bad guy does. I could be mistaken, it happens with unfortunate regularity.
F/M/T is better than a Swashbuckler, just soloing the Swashbuckler can get through most things after the beginning of SoA as well and can do it much faster. Many, many battles require no prep at all or constant pausing, just mosey in, make all of the horrible critters dead, um... in some cases deader. That a word? There was a time when F/M/T could use Jan’s armor and make herself immune to damage if you did it right, F/T too I suppose, C/T could nearly get there as well. It’s been a while so I may be misremembering. Really got to me learning that I could no longer borrow the PC’s gear. Grr!
Comments
I like dual-classing, in this case into fighter, and see 3 obvious choices:
1) dual at 5th, to enjoy full benefits through all games of the saga.
2) dual at 10th, to get full run at thief skills, extra hit die, and still have no impact on fighter max level
3) dual at 25th, for Use Any Item (24) plus extra +1 from kit at 25, highest level that a fighter can regain
or
4) play non-human and go to lvl 40
Option (3) looks interesting on paper, but I doubt will be much fun to play, unless your are really into the idea of transforming towards godhood at the end of the game - for a completionist with a full part, the dual occurs in SoA, but probably chapter 6, and regaining the dual will be pretty much end-game. Smacking around Carsomyr with fighter HLA/attacks, and a swash bonus may be enough fun to close out an epic play through though. Also, soloing would gain the levels back much earlier, can you hit the level cap in SoA?
Option (2) seems my typical play through, optimizing the dual for where the first class maximizes benefit before levels get expensive. Actually, lvl 11 is also a good option (220k), and may result in slightly more xp for pick locks/disarm traps? Downside is that while the thief levels are cheap, the later fighter levels are not, and it would be relatively deep into SoA before the dual was reactivated at around 1 million xp.
Option (1) sounds like the more balanced experience, but do you get enough swashbuckler to get the flavor, or does this just end up as another fighter kit, still requiring a regular thief in the party? This option also has better HP as the con bonus for fighters apparently applies only to fighter hit dice, not all hit dice (ambiguous wording on the con bonus).
Option (4) sounds interesting as we get to play another race and get the full swashbuckler experience - but for a fighter-type, not getting the extra APR would definitely annoy me. And do the thief levels bring significant enough benefit after maxing the basic thief skills? Use Any Item is nice, but HLAs are otherwise underwhelming, apart from maybe the traps. UAI also really benefits from the fighter weapon proficiencies that would be lacking in a straight swash build.
I am currently inclined towards option (2), but I think it is a good sign of the versatility of the game that I do not see a clear and easy choice - all must balance the benefits against the drawbacks
Once you get the low AC, it makes scouting, trap finding ect a breeze.
Leave the party having a nap, and run off and have a look see, you can take a few hits from traps/enemies and lead anything back to be slaughtered if need be, either by your traps or the lazy buggers chilling by the fire.
And with CF/Belm, the CF spell seems to work on anybody/thing. Right through TOB as well.
I should try a solo BG2, done quite a bit on my own but have a party for the interaction more than anything on a lot of it.
Swash get THAC0 of 10, then -8 hit bonus, -3 bonus with strength 19, -6 from Carsomyr, +4 penalty during whirlwinds, so THAC0 total of -2 by my math. Give them a better belt, some gauntlets, a holy sumbol for +1 stength (after they can equip any item)... etc and they wont miss with their 10 attacks per round allowing an extra 40 (-4 per attack) damage per round for the a THAC0 only 6 worse than a fighter using greater whirlwind!
Carsomyr is a fine weapon, but not so much for its offensive power. Really, you're better off hitting your opponents with weapons you know how to use better. Like, say Angurvadal +5. More damage, amplified further by specialization and the strength bonus, a better chance to hit, and you can dual-wield it with something good for more attacks when you're not whirling.
And why do you have a holy symbol that the cleric it belongs to isn't using? Did you raise them to epic levels and then drop them from the party?
I've played a halfling swashbuckler through the game ... as the leader of the second iteration of my all-werewolf party. Incredible AC, passive 100% magic resistance, massive regeneration, and more. Also three hard-hitting attacks per round. even when not whirling.
That's the endgame, though. Early on, especially in BG1, I would have been better off with a fighter/thief. The ability to use heavy armor and giant strength potions in combat is not to be underestimated.
If he wears the BMU you will have a halfling werewolf robot pirate.
Unless 2.6 fixes the shapeshift crashes, in which case the game becomes that much better.
* Non-druid werewolves are based on a mod component that turns shapeshifting abilities into tokens. Those tokens can be passed around to a few classes despite their descriptions, and rogues with UAI are one of the options. The problem, then, is that attempting to equip two different items with animation change effects leads to the game being unable to decide which effect should apply and hanging. Just picking one of them up from the inventory causes the game to try to figure out how characters would change with it equipped, and there it goes.
And if you edited the save to equip both items at once, the game would fail to load that save. No tricking the system on this one.
I don't know the answer to that one but reading the thread has made me want to give swashbuckling a try. In the past I have always relied on backstabbing when playing a thief but now I am keen to roll up a new character, buckle on a swash and explore the Sword Coast once more.
IIRC, UAI grants proficiency in all weapons it grants usage of.
Swashy is bad for mage dual at 10 as you don't get that much HP compared to fighter dual anyway, the thaco/dmg boni are very lackluster for a class that doesn't even backstab, and your thieving skills are locked for the rest of the game. Very poor trade for some better equipment restrictions, a straight class bard or of course, the mage/thief multi is waaaaaaaaay better. If I was gonna dual a thief>mage I'd take any other kit, even the vanilla, as you can abuse backstab more than +2 hit/damage, and if all you care about is largely better equipment restrictions on a mage (i.e. like Imoen and Nalia) you'd be way better served just taking a fighter first class or any of the other kits.
Dualled to fighter you again lose the backstab mod. If you do it late (25t/26f) you are somewhat comparable to a kensai/thief....except you'll be missing backstabs, assassination, and a HUGE (~70 or 80 IIRC) amount of HP. I've compared k/t and s/f several times and k/t is both more flexible (can dual at 13 or 24, while swashy is pretty much pointless to not take as much as possible before dual) and is stronger in the end. Way stronger, due to abuse of backstab modifier.
And you can do cheeky stuff like dual;ing to cleric too, just to gain some thieving skills, but the multi will be way better, again, because the thief side still levels and gains HLAs/upgraded traps. Swashy just doesn't add enough by itself to justify dualling the kit
Instead, using them as a pure class they aren't terrible, eventually getting up the point they are similar to a (weaker at all points) f/t multi. The reasons for doing so would be simplicity, using a favorite race (elf gets further +1 thaco on swords and bows and another +1 thaco on ranged from 19 DEX, Half-Orc starting abilities, etc) and to abuse their high amount of thieving skill points in order to gain more utility through trap laying (any party can benefit from traps on a thief that still levels up!), pickpocket, or detect illusion earlier in the game than it comes along for multis.
Eventually you get UAI and start stacking on +attack weapons or casting Black Blade from scrolls combined with I. Haste or WW attack and make some of the ground back up, but a f/t is always gonna be better - better HP, more attacks, more fighter HLAs, etc.
Swashys do make good BG1 ranged attackers and are more useful in that game due to leveling curve than a multi-class for thieving duties. They actually make a good partner for a bard or F/M or M/T sitting in the backline slinging arrows then.
Swashies are great.
Swashbuckler is something of a slightly tanky thief, is the best way to think about its strategic combat role -- very similar to the fighter/thief multi. It can't be your main tank, but it can sit on the frontlines beside Korgan, Mazzy or Keldorn. As such, if you are going to single class it, it's best to go with a shorty -- dwarf, halfling, or gnome for the bonus saving throws.
There are some diminishing returns to high level thieves compared to the other three classes, but there's still some advantage to being able to maximize skills like set traps and detect illusion, both of these are very strong at high levels.
Losing backstab isn't actually that bad from a powergaming standpoint. Backstab is a ton of fun, but it's actually not efficient damage dealing. Dual wielding for BG2 is probably the way to go for a Swashbuckler, just given the excellent loadout of items with either permanent effects or on-hit effects. Daggers, longswords, katanas, clubs, there are lots of options.
In the case of Swashbuckler/Mage, there's 4-5 comparisons: Mage kits, Thief/Mage, Assassin/Mage, Bounty Hunter/Mage, and Shadow Dancer/Mage. I don't think Fighter/Mage is a fair comparison: you're probably going Swashbuckler in the first place to have Thief skills, so anything without thief skills are going to be discounted.
So, first: Mage kits. Assuming level 11 duals for everything (the next breakpoint is level 13 for x4 backstab modifiers for thieves), you're losing a -2 bonus to all spell saves of a certain school and 1 spell per level and possibly Gnome or Elf bonuses (ha) for 12 additional health on average (2 at 1st level, and 1d6 vs 1d4 is only 1 HP on average until level 10), access to Thief weapons, 290 skill points (not counting DEX or Human skill), +3 bonus to AC, +2 to hit and +2 to damage, and Specialization in melee weapons.
I'd say that Swashbuckler 11/Mage is at least comparable to a regular kitted mage, though losing the specialized spell kinda hurts when you first get a spell of a new level. You'll be short 220k experience, so roughly 2/3 of a level for a mage. On the other hand, you have enough Thief points to throw things in Pick Pockets, Detect Illusions, or the classic Find Traps/Open Locks if you don't want to use any of the NPC Thieves. Or Nalia. Set Traps is also usable, since the 2d6 poison for 3 rounds... doesn't seem like it has a save. Huh. The more you know.
Alright. Time for comparisons to the other Thief kits.
Vanilla Thief/Mage: you're trading the ability to backstab at x3 for +3 to AC, +2 to hit and damage, and Specialization in melee weapons. This comes down to how you intend you position your Mage: if you're willing to do Mislead cheese, backstabs are probably better, though it means you're definitely in melee range when the fight starts. The thing that really sticks out to me for Swashbucklers are the returning throwing daggers: Swashbuckler gets +3 to hit and +4 to damage with something like Firetooth Dagger. Considering that Imoen could hit fairly consistently with her own terrible Thief/Mage THAC0, this should allow a Swashbuckler/Mage to be a good secondary ranged damage option.
Assassin/Mage: this one is tricky. The tradeoff this time is ability to backstab at x3 and Poison Weapon for +3 to AC, +1 to hit and damage, Specialization in melee weapons, and 100 Thief points. The question for me is Poison Weapon vs the Thief points: you're likely only going to be maxing 2 skills vs 3 a Swashbuckler could. On the one hand, you can just potion scum to get pickpocket scores and other things, but... I think I'd say this is Assassin/Mage favored, just because of how darn strong Poison Weapon is: pair it with Greater Malison, and any caster you can poison is basically down for 3 rounds.
Bounty Hunter/Mage: Ability to backstab at x3 and Set Special Snare (x3) for +3 to AC, +2 to hit and damage, Specialization in melee weapons, and 35 Thief points (you lose 50 from leveling, but gain +15 to Set Traps). You're definitely going to be maxing Set Traps, and that leaves you with enough to max two skills I think. The potential to have ranged traps that Hold a target for 5 rounds is... almost definitely better than the numbers a Swashbuckler can give.
Shadow Dancer/Mage: x2 Backstab, Hide in Plain Sight, Shadowstep x2, -1 bonus to all saving throws, for +3 to AC, +2 to hit and damage, Specialization in melee weapons, and 40 Thief points, and ability to Set Traps. To really use Hide in Plain Sight, you're basically going to have to throw all your Thief points into Move Silently/Hide in Shadows: if you put 100 points in both, I think you should have a 100% chance to stealth outside of environmental penalties, leaving you with... approximately 80-100 points. So you'll be short on other Thief skills, but you have Hide in Plain Sight. I honestly don't think these two can be fairly compared, since they're going to have drastically different playstyles: Shadow Dancer is a stupidly defensive Mage that can't really act as the Thief of the group, while the Swashbuckler can still fulfill all the roles of a Thief in a group with points to spare.
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So... this surprised me quite a bit. I do prefer Swash/Mage to either Mage kits outside maybe Wild Mage and Thief/Mage, but I think it suffers in comparison to Assassin/Mage and Bounty Hunter/Mage. Maybe another thing to try is 2 Speed Weapons, Enchanted Weapon and Improved Haste to get to 8 APR with a better THAC0 and damage... But I don't typically use this style, and I'm ill-prepared to judge it.
And yes, there's no save for the damage. Only the special effects (instant death on the level 21+ trap, slow/hold/bubble on the BH special snare) and the HLA exploding trap fireball have saves.
A 19 Strength with my adjustments, gives Darts a total of +7 (Strength) +3 (Swashbuckler) = +10 Damage, stuck at 3 APR; for example, Biter (returning Dart available from SoD import) does 1d3 +2; with the bonuses it does 13-15 damage each attack (39-45). For comparison, Boomerang Dagger (returning throwing dagger) does a stupid 2d4+2 damage, for 14-20 damage twice a round (28-40) -- but if you switch that dagger to melee it currently "bugged" to keep its 2 APR, pairing it with a speed weapon and you have 4 APR instead of 3. So Darts do a little more than throwing dagger because of the extra APR - but not bustedly so at higher levels.
So, for me, dualing Swashbuckler over to Mage - lets me use Darts as a main weapon on a Mage and actually be beneficial to the group instead of having to spam cast magic all the time. Or, if I want to have fun, I can play a Dart-wielding Thief and get 1 less APR than if I played a Scim-Short Sword (Belm+Kundane) or Dagger-ShortSword (Boomerang/Fireooth and Kundane) pure Swashbuckler and eventually reach crazy damage and THAC0 bonuses.
Also I had to make a comment -- I don't think this information is correct? Because it is highly recommended for Bounty Hunters wanting to keep their Hold Traps and not go into the non-damaging traps, to dual out of BH at level 11-15 and their trap eternally will stay at the Hold version and not take into any consideration their second class. Or is this referring only to Set Snare and not Set Special Snare? I don't ever use normal Thief traps (too much planning/luring to get to work, I like being able to throw a medieval grenade with a BH XD)
Hmm, gotta say that it doesn't matter, this class is beyond powerful as a solo class without an unhittable AC. What you can do with it is almost wrong. Firetooth main hand, Scarlet Ninja-To with UAI and just items you can have 8 attacks per round almost with just items in ToB. Save scrolls and just cut down everyone in the Oasis. Use scrolls and you will understand why the class is so overpowered.
The first class I soloed the game with was an Undead Hunter, not bad. Second class was F/M/T, yeah much better. Third class was a Swashbuckler, soloing it feels like you are running through the game. The only solo class that used to be as easy, or maybe I should say as quick and easy, was the C/R but unfortunately someone decided to crush those dreams. Sigh. Those were the days.
Late SoA or ToB there will never be an issue.
No, not a fan of Breach for a thief, not needed at all anyway but there is this one wand... Traps can eat through mages, some it is not possible so use wands or scrolls. Wand of Cloudkill is a good antimage thingy.
Maybe I am the only one who does this but Ring of the Ram, Invisibility/Hide in Shadows, and thief traps combined can kill almost any mage in the game. Being completely forthright, that combo can almost completely decimate ToB with any rogue. There are only a few that are uncouth enough to not let you set up before they introduce themselves. Saradush, grr! Luckily enough, Gromnir's pet spell slingers ar not that hard to beat.
I think it has to do with the damage specific AC modifiers. Years ago when the thread was posted I tried it and I don’t remember getting hit at all. Made me much more conscious about what type of damage each bad guy does. I could be mistaken, it happens with unfortunate regularity.
F/M/T is better than a Swashbuckler, just soloing the Swashbuckler can get through most things after the beginning of SoA as well and can do it much faster. Many, many battles require no prep at all or constant pausing, just mosey in, make all of the horrible critters dead, um... in some cases deader. That a word? There was a time when F/M/T could use Jan’s armor and make herself immune to damage if you did it right, F/T too I suppose, C/T could nearly get there as well. It’s been a while so I may be misremembering. Really got to me learning that I could no longer borrow the PC’s gear. Grr!