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Is it heresy to take Viconia in your party as a paladin?

I'm curious as to what people think about this. I'm interested in the FR lore implications, but also general morality. I'm contemplating a run with a paladin - somewhat darker than the goodie-goodie LG paladin cliche (wrestling with the Bhaal taint, etc.), but still with a strong moral compass and desire to do good. Is there any way to rationalize having Viconia in the party from a role playing standpoint? Her outspoken loyalty to Shar seems to make this problematic.
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  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    Katzerchen wrote: »
    Actually, as a paladin you will find more reasons to take her into the party than as an elven ranger.

    - You just saved a life. Now you are responsible for that life, whether you like it or not.
    - You take her along because when she is close you can watch her and prevent her from scheming and "spreading evil".
    - Your secret goal may be to convert her, as a paladin this would be logical even without meta-gaming!
    - You are just less racist and fanatic than others of your profession and thus give everyone a chance to prove themselves.
    - You are driven not only by chivalry, loyalty to your superiors and other LGy things, but also by deep compassion. You just can't leave this girl rats, you feel that you just MUST help her.

    It goes without saying that in this case it would be problematic to pursue a romance with her though...
  • KatzerchenKatzerchen Member Posts: 61
    Balrog99 wrote: »
    It goes without saying that in this case it would be problematic to pursue a romance with her though...
    I never played the Viconia romance.

    Otherwise... why not?

    Paladins have feelings, too.
    What would stop him from, while he is following his path, to fall in love with that girl he saved/just took in to watch/just wanted to convert???


  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    Katzerchen wrote: »
    Actually, as a paladin you will find more reasons to take her into the party than as an elven ranger.

    - You just saved a life. Now you are responsible for that life, whether you like it or not.
    - You take her along because when she is close you can watch her and prevent her from scheming and "spreading evil".
    - Your secret goal may be to convert her, as a paladin this would be logical even without meta-gaming!
    - You are just less racist and fanatic than others of your profession and thus give everyone a chance to prove themselves.
    - You are driven not only by chivalry, loyalty to your superiors and other LGy things, but also by deep compassion. You just can't leave this girl rats, you feel that you just MUST help her.

    You may be driven by compassion and such but any church or deity would consider foolish amd even dangerous to walk alongside someone who clearly does not want to be redeemed and aids the party with the blessings of Shar.
    Still, I can picture a bard or knight-ish fighter pursuing such a goal.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    Katzerchen wrote: »
    Balrog99 wrote: »
    It goes without saying that in this case it would be problematic to pursue a romance with her though...
    I never played the Viconia romance.

    Otherwise... why not?

    Paladins have feelings, too.
    What would stop him from, while he is following his path, to fall in love with that girl he saved/just took in to watch/just wanted to convert???


    The way Viconia approaches romance would likely not be LG deity approved. Even if you manage to 'redeem' her, she only switches to TN and won't abandon Shar...
  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 1,597
    For me one of the big themes of SoA is that you're forced to make unsavory alliances due to an increasingly desperate situation. You have to ally with the Shadow Thieves or an even worse organization. You have to ally with some other unsavories for some side quests. The ideal outcomes from Keldorn and Anomen involve breaking a bit from a stereotypical and strict interpretation of Lawful Good. And going even further, all the various things you do in the Brynnlaw-Underdark sequence.

    So even putting aside D&D or FR lore, I've always felt there was solid justification for a Good character to accommodate having an evil NPC or two in the party.
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 2,101
    I won't repeat Katzerchen's first post, as most moral justifications I can come up with are listed there already.

    Considering lore, I think a paladin of Ilmater, who values mercy and redemption above "smite evil" and would judge someone by their actions, might justify taking her along, with the moral explications mentioned above.
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 951
    Heresy yes, but it is your game, so everything can be acceptable if your headcanon can live with it.
    In the point if a church or good god, nobody wants a dark elf in your party, nobody think the goodness in them. In the time of adnd 2e, dark elves were evil monsters, not metaphysicially evils or not understood pity creatures but trully evil ones, not a sane paladin would try to travel with one.
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,861
    I regularly play a paladin and often have Viconia in my party. I work on the basis that my paladin judges people as she finds them and since Viconia doesn't do anything evil in her presence then I can overlook the fact that she lights up every time my paladin casts Detect Evil.

    The real problem comes with reputation because when it gets too high Viconia will leave and I have yet to come up with a plausible reason for my paladin to intentionally lose reputation.
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 2,101
    edited August 2021
    The real problem comes with reputation because when it gets too high Viconia will leave and I have yet to come up with a plausible reason for my paladin to intentionally lose reputation.

    Very true. Mental gymnastics to justify decisions are always possible (like: my paladin wasn't looking when Imoen stole from a chest and got caught, or: my paladin didn't think Nalia would forget that a fireball against enemies in a public place might accidentally kill an innocent bystander, or even: that nameless commoner or nobleman pinged red on Detect Evil, so obviously he was no innocent and I had to smite him), but since I'm assuming @OrlonKronsteen was interested in serious roleplaying justifications, this is the biggest issue.

    Frankly, if you really want to roleplay a paladin that's not just carrying the name of the class, I can come up with a lot of reasons to take Viconia along, but no reason at all to intentionally lower reputation to keep her, or even avoid increasing reputation by avoiding some quests on purpose.

    The only thing that might help you there would be the optional SCS component that slows down the reputation increase. And even that is mental gymnastics IMO (which you're perfectly allowed to do, of course), because judging by her actions and taking her to give her a chance and keep an eye on her is one thing, but there's really no explanation why you would adjust your behavior and roleplaying decision to keep a person from leaving who apparently hates that you do good. That basically means she would have a bad influence on your paladin instead of him having a good influence on her.
    Which of course is also a valid roleplaying interpretation if you choose to behave accordingly. I think it all comes down to the fact if you want to pick a roleplaying concept, stick to it and justify a few things, but accept certain limitations in this playthrough, or if you just want to do the same thing you might do in other runs, just with a paladin kit.

    My totally personal opinion would be that in this particular case, I'd say recruiting Viconia but accepting that she leaves when your reputation gets too high would be the most likely behavior of a paladin who wouldn't outright refuse her company.

    And since alignment discussions often tended to get out of hand in the past, please let me add again that I'm just offering my very personal and subjective opinion, not passing judgement on the way other people choose to play their game.
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 1,177
    Having used too many mods I initially read this as “would it be acceptable to make Viconia into a Paladin/ Blackguard of Shar?” ?
  • SBlackSBlack Member Posts: 32
    edited August 2021
    Even the game itself isn't always so strict with paladins. Keldorn and Korgan actually get along surprisingly well. Though his personality is very different from Viconia. He is basically just a violent jerk, but with an occasional soft side for certain people.
  • KatzerchenKatzerchen Member Posts: 61
    Mantis37 wrote: »
    Having used too many mods I initially read this as “would it be acceptable to make Viconia into a Paladin/ Blackguard of Shar?” ?
    This just made my day.
  • wukewuke Member Posts: 113
    Those who wanted to burn her are certainly not "lawful", so it's fine to save her. You also work with Shadow Thieves or vampires already, a drow is not that unacceptable.
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 905
    Thanks for all your responses. I find it an interesting topic in philosophical terms.
    Balrog99 wrote: »
    It goes without saying that in this case it would be problematic to pursue a romance with her though...

    @Balrog99, I'm not interested in romance in games, but this point is interesting. Why would romance be inappropriate, if saving her and bringing her in your party is ok? Do you mean, romance as a motivation for saving her in the first place is morally questionable?

    @Permidion_Stark @Arvia Reputation is an issue. But since it is a flawed system, I don't have a problem finding ways around it - including mental gymnastics - so long as my pc doesn't act out of character. It so happens I use the SCS slow rep component in BG1, which should solve any BG1 issues, and in BG2, rep advancement is slow enough that I can easily make it until I get the slayer form, which, from a mental gymnastics standpoint, is easier to justify than committing a crime.

    The biggest question to me of late has been the worship of Shar. I have never paid much attention to lore in these games, but I randomly came across a thread about the church of Shar somewhere in which it was pointed out that the mission of Shar is to undermine and corrupt individuals. That begs me to wonder whether I could ever consider the behaviour of one of it's practitioners as genuine.
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 1,083
    In 2nd edition AD&D, paladins couldn't adventure with evil characters under any circumstances and couldn't even adventure with thieves unless they were "nonevil and trying to reform". So in a game that strictly used the tabletop ruleset, it wouldn't be possible to carry a cleric of Shar in the party.

    But if you aren't too worried about tabletop and just want to play the game, I'd think you would at least have to believe her experience at the stake has shaken her and she is genuinely open to hearing what you have to say. You would also have to think a lot of her harsh words are bluster rather than reflecting her true thoughts and feelings. Otherwise you'd simply be enabling a highly effective servant of Shar, which as @Ammar points out probably isn't going to be helpful to the causes a paladin would believe in.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @jsaving "You would also have to think a lot of her harsh words are bluster rather than reflecting her true thoughts and feelings."

    Her romance reveals that this is pretty much the case. Its a defense mechanism of a very broken individual.
  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 1,093
    edited August 2021
    I normally patch my games to prevent NPCs from leaving on reputation, but still grumbling about it, so it would be doable. My current EET party recruited her briefly, and the temptation to keep her was strong, but this party has two LG paladins, and I found it was a bit of a stretch.

    However, this party also balked at Branwen, which is how they ended up with Jaheira - who I also patched to be neutral good (using the tweaks), as she behaves more like a good character than a true neutral character.
  • SBlackSBlack Member Posts: 32
    edited August 2021
    Maurvir wrote: »
    as she behaves more like a good character than a true neutral character.
    I agree. That only becomes from the literal implementation of 2E rules where all druids had to be true neutral. 3E changed them to be all kinds of neutral.
  • BracchusBracchus Member Posts: 41
    It's fantasy fiction, of course you can. The entire genre is saturated with examples of Mr or Mrs Pureofheart engaging in a tragic romance with an evil hearted companion
  • BracchusBracchus Member Posts: 41
    jsaving wrote: »
    In 2nd edition AD&D, paladins couldn't adventure with evil characters under any circumstances and couldn't even adventure with thieves unless they were "nonevil and trying to reform". So in a game that strictly used the tabletop ruleset, it wouldn't be possible to carry a cleric of Shar in the party.
    The fact I don't even remember this rule should be testament to how many players actually ever bothered with it. We used to have a huge Paladin fanboy in our group, and what I do remember is how many times all of us including our DM told him to get stuffed whenever he said "But guys, I'm a Paladin so you can't (insert player choice here)"

    The rest of us: "GF your paladin, Kevin!"

    We spent a bunch of weekends going to big tabletop conventions so our whole group often signed up with a DM we didn't know so ours could have some player fun too. The one we kept meeting with the most had a rather sadistic way of punishing "Kevin" every time he pulled his lawful-stupid interpretation of the Paladin code.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    If it helps, I don't know how much thought the devs put into Shar being Viconia's patron deity. She never really exemplifies Shar specific philosophy or goals. I'm pretty sure the devs went, "We need a name for an evil deity for our Drow npc." "Hey, Shar has darkness and shadows in her profile." "Perfect!".
  • SBlackSBlack Member Posts: 32
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    If it helps, I don't know how much thought the devs put into Shar being Viconia's patron deity.
    Her unromanced epilogue is pretty clear:
    No longer with [charname], Viconia went on to found a cult dedicated to Shar in the city of Waterdeep. One of her followers betrayed her, however, prompting the slaughter of the whole tainted lot. Shar admonished Viconia strongly for this, but she was unrepentant and again wandered the Realms.
  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 773
    edited August 2021
    I don't think whoever wrote rasaad's quest gave it enough thought or had much knowledge of realms lore - to avoid his bad ending you basically have to side with a group of sharrans which, as has been pointed out, revels in betrayal and suffering and wishes to snuff out all life in the realms - in not wanting to work with them (and not seeing shar as equivalent to selune) you are portrayed as vengeful and belligerent
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    ilduderino wrote: »
    I don't think whoever wrote rasaad's quest gave it enough thought or had much knowledge of realms lore - to avoid his bad ending you basically have to side with a group of sharrans which, as has been pointed out, revels in betrayal and suffering and wishes to snuff out all life in the realms - in not wanting to work with them (and not seeing shar as equivalent to selune) you are portrayed as vengeful and belligerent

    More of that "evil is good and good is evil" crap I see so much in contemporary fiction. I'm just finishing up watching the "Supernatural" series for the first time, starting the final season, and at the end of the next to the last season, they went full on "everything you think is good is actually evil, and everything you think is evil is actually good" business. I was very disappointed with the writers. I think the whole phenomenon is a poison in our culture.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    SBlack wrote: »
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    If it helps, I don't know how much thought the devs put into Shar being Viconia's patron deity.
    Her unromanced epilogue is pretty clear:
    No longer with [charname], Viconia went on to found a cult dedicated to Shar in the city of Waterdeep. One of her followers betrayed her, however, prompting the slaughter of the whole tainted lot. Shar admonished Viconia strongly for this, but she was unrepentant and again wandered the Realms.

    It demonstrates my point from before. Devs probably saw evil deity with darkness in her portfolio and just went with it. The epilogue just namedrops Shar, but again, there's no mention of any actual Sharran goals or creeds. Nothing deeper than "Shar evil, Viconia serve." Nothing about ending all life or even of subverting good. You could sub in literally any other evil deity without changing Viconia's story or character a single bit. She's a really bad Sharran. Especially since, instead of subverting a good charname, a good charname can subvert her.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    edited August 2021
    ilduderino wrote: »
    I don't think whoever wrote rasaad's quest gave it enough thought or had much knowledge of realms lore - to avoid his bad ending you basically have to side with a group of sharrans which, as has been pointed out, revels in betrayal and suffering and wishes to snuff out all life in the realms - in not wanting to work with them (and not seeing shar as equivalent to selune) you are portrayed as vengeful and belligerent

    More of that "evil is good and good is evil" crap I see so much in contemporary fiction. I'm just finishing up watching the "Supernatural" series for the first time, starting the final season, and at the end of the next to the last season, they went full on "everything you think is good is actually evil, and everything you think is evil is actually good" business. I was very disappointed with the writers. I think the whole phenomenon is a poison in our culture.

    I'm not sure that the phenomenon is quite as you see it. I see it more as good people do evil things sometimes, evil people do good things sometimes, you may have to do something evil to achieve something good, and/or good things may result from evil actions (and vice-versa). The old days of the white hats vs. black hats are gone. Personally I think it's more realistic, and much less of a 'fiction is a morality play' trope myself. I don't know anybody who is totally good or totally evil, especially when put in the unusual situations depicted in most movies/stories...
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