"You will take me in, but you will take the girl as well."
That is a surrender and capture of both. I think from a player perspective it is suspicious, and even a smart protagonist should be able to see that too. However, the protagonist can be played however one sees fit, and can be played as oblivious.
It is also my impression that the main thread is that the protagonist seeks the cowled wizards foremost in order to subsequently find the secondary incarcerated target.
I do not think that the power level is really of concern to the protagonist since one can play hubristic.
I do think Irenicus is in fact captured by the Cowled Wizards. He's still bound by spell slot limitations, which are not only a game mechanic but exist in the setting - so he would get overwhelmed by them eventually even if he's more powerful than any individual Cowled WIzard. There's not even any indication that they send particular powerful mages first. Getting Imoen captures as well is him salvaging the situation as best as he can.
This being said - there's not really much dialogue about Irenicus in Chapter 2. When charname recruits new party member he often says that his ultimately goal is either (good) rescuing Imoen from the Wizards or get answers from Irenicus who is being held by the Cowled Wizards. In both cases, the dialogue focuses on the Cowled Wizards, not Irenicus. In his journal entries and in dialogue with Gaelan Bayle at the beginning of Chapter 2 it is clear that CHARNAME sees getting the gold as his main obstacle in rescuing Imoen, not increasing their personal power.
In short, there is a mismatch between what you may feel CHARNAME should think and feel and narrative portrayal of CHARNAME in game. I do agree that it might be logical for CHARNAME to be cautious and gather artifacts, but the in-game dialogue and journal entries just do not support that is what CHARNAME is doing.
There's a bit more dialogue in Chapter 3, but delaying the guild war has it's own logical issues, at least if you are on the side of the Shadow Thieves who seem to be losing.
Anyway - while BG 2 is a great game, I think it has to be acknowledged that CHARNAME usually comes across as a bit simple in his motivations. Just look at some of the dialogue entries. And at how he can't really voice any suspicions about Yoshimo when he starts strongly signalling his imminent betrayal on Brynnlaw.
I feel like that's a Bioware problem in general, that their Player Characters often come across as simpletons or even childish, like in KOTOR. That's probably part of the reason I've drifted towards Obsidian games instead over the past several years. Even in games where you're just as much a slave to the plot, like in Deadfire, you at least get to express your awareness of it consistently.
@lroumen "That is a surrender and capture of both. "
No, this is Irenicus giving them permission and making a demand of them that they comply to. A capture is not voluntary. He's 100% not captured, since he just casually waltzes out and slaughters more cowled wizards later. That's like saying I captured a grizzly bear because it wandered into my house and layed down on the couch.
My contention wasn't that players can't rp whatever they want, its with claims that the game gives no reason for charname to not jump straight into chapters 3/4.
No, this is Irenicus giving them permission and making a demand of them that they comply to. A capture is not voluntary. He's 100% not captured, since he just casually waltzes out and slaughters more cowled wizards later. That's like saying I captured a grizzly bear because it wandered into my house and layed down on the couch.
Disagree - Irenicus can likely defeat any single Cowled Wizard in a one-on-one. Maybe he can defeat any three at the same time. Maybe even any 5 - though I really doubt that given the existence of Zallanora.
In the setting setting it does not make sense at all to assume he can defeat them all at once in their own city. Even the in-game dialogue supports this - note how he moves from defiance to deciding to surrender right after a CW points out that they can overwhelm him with numbers. Of course, he's also confident he will be able to escape/salvage things later on.
His taking over Spellhold works because it's relatively isolated and he gets the drop on them.
The bear analogy is wrong. He's captured in the same way a bank robber who tried to shoot his way free is captured after realizing there are too many policemen around for this to be feasible and surrendering.
Irenicus is a good villain not because is is overwhelmingly powerful - though he is so compared to CHARNAME at the start of the game. He's a good villain because he adapts to the situation both with the capture by the CWs and the entire situation in Hell, because he is smart and able to rally strong allies such as drow and vampires to his cause.
@Ammar "Disagree - Irenicus can likely defeat any single Cowled Wizard in a one-on-one. Maybe he can defeat any three at the same time. Maybe even any 5 - though I really doubt that given the existence of Zallanora."
Rapture of the Father would disagree with you.
Just in case super cheat death by script spells don't convince you, Irenicus slaughtered all the Cowled Wizards IN THEIR OWN FORTRESS, AND ALREADY UNDER THEIR CONTAINMENT SPELLS. That is significantly more difficult than taking them on in a city. Lots of people and room to undertake guerrilla warfare if needed. Its not even "their" city, they just have authority to operate within it. Irenicus is cannonically demi-god levels of magical power, and nothing in game indicates that the Cowled Wizards are even speedbumps for him.
Maybe not really an unpopular opinion: BG2 is hard to RP from the moment when Bioware decided to go with the damsel in distress trope. The whole game plays like the main motive should be something less dire and personal.
If I choose to respect the plot I should either:
Do 1-2 big side quests and rush the whole rest of the game, since it's either my friend or my own soul in danger. I believe it will be less than half of a even non-completionist playthrough.
Or my charname just doesn't care about Imoen and can have fun in Amn, then I don't really need to go to Spellhold since charname doesn't actually know Irenicus was free. Only players know that from the cutscenes.
The only justification I can think of is my charname doesn't want to free Imoen and doesn't believe the Asylum is enough for Irenicus, only wants revenge by their own hands. Knowing how powerful Irenicus is, they chooses to gather as much power as they can to prepare for it. But that's a very specific setting.
SCS's change the GPs needed for chapter 3 probably is a good fix, still the changed price may be unrealistically high in that world.
I4E is probably the most drastic change to BG2 of any mod, and one that, IMO, improves it for the better. Not having to rush off to "save Imoen" means you can play the way you did in BG1, where you eventually find your way to the big, bad boss. It even gives it the same pacing - where you can start off slowly and do side quests, then ramp up the pace as you get into chapter 4.
I now find BG2 to be more enjoyable than BG1 as a result. Bioware should have been beaten with a stick for that stupid trope.
Why should we take super cheat death by script effects as a serious part of the story by themselves? The Shadow Thieves have one of those that they inexplicably fail to use against you if you side with Bodhi. And in the first game Winski Perorate has some weird flamestrike that can kill you instantly that he only uses if you fail to protect the dukes. For the most part, those are only there to compensate for this game not really having provisions for nonstandard game overs.
It is very clear that he sees an opportunity in Athkatla and allows himself to be "captured". He knows Imoen is one of the children, and while he is holding out for the bigger prize, he also believes PC will come after her. A mage of his power could have simply teleported out of the area once the first wave of Cowled Wizards went down, but he chose to stay as he saw a way for the CW to hand him his bait. He played it smart, let the CW think they had the upper hand, then jerked their own prison away from them. In the process, he not only got PC to come to him, rather than the other way around, he got a massive upgrade of his lab facilities.
While it is true, by D&D rules, *enough* CW enforcers could deplete his spells, he was still dropping some high level nastiness when he "gave up". While I have no doubt that encounter was enhanced, it is somewhat replicable by using a robe of Vecna, Greater Alacrity, and properly prepared contingencies. Either way, he was pounding the CW enforces like cheap steaks.
So yeah, Irenicus is probably one of the better villains, even compared to Sarevok, who was also a pretty decent villain. Honestly, the weakest villain of the whole series was Mellisan, and her half-baked attempt at subterfuge. Even Caelar was better IMO.
As for the PC, well, you are playing the PC since, you know, it's the "player character". If you don't trust Yoshimo, dump him somewhere or send him into battle alone and don't bother going to a temple afterward. While you may not have PID options to express your thoughts, you can sure as heck act on them. (Though that would be a great mod - PID options that let you express concerns and doubts with party members and get their opinions)
@ThacoBell
The cutscenes in the government center clearly shows him in the magic bubble. He is captured. That he breaks free very easily is an entirely different matter and shows that being captured was indeed just a clever scheme.
Since he got interrupted by the shadow thieves he needs a new place, and he is smart enough to demand the taking of Imoen considering the rules of Amn. It allows him to experiment further, elegantly first for his sister in order to be prepared for the protagonist and make it a clear success for himself.
Might be that the power of the protagonist is irrelevant and he just knows that separating siblings automatically means the uncaptured one would try to find the other without question, at which point he just needs to wait for the sibling to arrive.
I also doubt that spell hold is home to all of the powerful high level cowled wizards. I mean it is just a prison so you just need one director and cells. Why do you need the entire top management for that? You do not meet the wizards from the Amn license encounters there.
In any case, how obvious it is that Irenicus was too strong for the player to deal with is rather beside the point. The complaint is that the story framing doesn't justify running off on side quests just for enough loot and XP to stand a better chance. None of the characters to my recollection really talk about making preparations specifically for that encounter. Hell, there's no clear consensus among the party and its allies that they'll have to face Irenicus at full power at all. Your PC can ask Aran whether it's even worth worrying about Irenicus anymore now that he's imprisoned, and Bodhi assures you that he'll be vulnerable enough for her to extract information from for your mutual benefit.
It's fine to interpret the story such that Irenicus' insurmountable strength would obviously justify delaying the PC's pursuit of him, but we need to recognize that the game doesn't treat it as a given that the PC expects a serious showdown with him. On the contrary, there's a distinct lack of dicussion of that question in the actual dialogue.
The term capture definitely includes cases where the captured party surrenders to the capturing party when confronted, i.e. see the Wikipedia article on the capture of Saddam Hussein.
I do think the discussion is starting to go in circles, so I will lay off in here as well on the topic after this post.
But I do want to point out that Elminster notes in the BG 2 manual that even he would hesitate to break the spellcasting ban in Amn. And that Irenicus had already fended off a Shadow Thieves assault and expended spells for that by the time the CWs confront him. I think it is inconsistent to assume that CHARNAME + party + inmates are stronger in Spellhold than the collective Cowled Wizards in Spellhold or that CHARNAME + party are more powerful by themselves than the CWs in Suldanessellar. But Irenicus suffers a defeat in both instances.
Also - IIRC correctly (it is hard to check BG 2 dialogue online) the entire siding with Bodhi subplot is driven by her wanting to find Irenicus in the same way you are trying to find Imoen or Irenicus, which again speaks against it being just a ploy.
One last observation: it does takes Irenicus some amount of time to take over Spellhold given it happens when you complete Chapter 2. This is tongue-in-cheek but CHARNAME assuming Irenicus is too powerful to confront right away and delaying paying the 15000 GP for that reason makes Irenicus seem less powerful since he requires correspondingly more time to escape.
I've taken a real shine to Bards of all stripes since I first started playing. I've decided to always have at least a temporary companion bard in every playthrough from now on. Even if I don't want to use them as permanent party members, they can serve as identifiers, pickpocketers and item caddies.
I've taken a real shine to Bards of all stripes since I first started playing. I've decided to always have at least a temporary companion bard in every playthrough from now on. Even if I don't want to use them as permanent party members, they can serve as identifiers, pickpocketers and item caddies.
I've taken a real shine to Bards of all stripes since I first started playing. I've decided to always have at least a temporary companion bard in every playthrough from now on. Even if I don't want to use them as permanent party members, they can serve as identifiers, pickpocketers and item caddies.
I've taken a real shine to Bards of all stripes since I first started playing. I've decided to always have at least a temporary companion bard in every playthrough from now on. Even if I don't want to use them as permanent party members, they can serve as identifiers, pickpocketers and item caddies.
Garrick is best bard, discuss.
I always used to think Garrick's only use was as someone to feed to Shoal the Nereid but them Beamdog created Rasaad, which made the young bard totally redundant. However, in my current run I have, for the first time, taken Garrick along as a full-time companion. And I love having the cheerful young chap around. He's not much good at spells or fighting or what have you but he is very pleasant company and he is a top man when it comes to identifying stuff.
I find Garrick specifically to be useful as a secondary arcane caster. He doesn't need to be casting magic missiles/acid arrows/fireballs, but he does need to be casting chromatic orbs/stinking clouds/slows.
Bards are great, especially with the high caster level they have. Just wish that for ToB they had restored spellcasting progression up to level 8 for bards (think that is PnP actually, but could be a different edition, not sure). And it's a pity offensive whirl does not stack with haste.
I like the *idea* of bards, but in practice, it feels like they are mediocre at everything. They aren't great at spellcasting, fighting, or thieving compared to a single class, or even a multi-class. The only thing that they can do better is play the flute or harp. Sure, you get a few nice perks, and the ability to use musical instruments, but every time I've tried playing with a bard, I've ended up dropping them off at a tavern or inn so that they continue their "real" career.
I've taken a real shine to Bards of all stripes since I first started playing. I've decided to always have at least a temporary companion bard in every playthrough from now on. Even if I don't want to use them as permanent party members, they can serve as identifiers, pickpocketers and item caddies.
Garrick is best bard, discuss.
I always used to think Garrick's only use was as someone to feed to Shoal the Nereid but them Beamdog created Rasaad, which made the young bard totally redundant. However, in my current run I have, for the first time, taken Garrick along as a full-time companion. And I love having the cheerful young chap around. He's not much good at spells or fighting or what have you but he is very pleasant company and he is a top man when it comes to identifying stuff.
His stats are higher than Eldoth's.
@Maurvir You're judging each facet on its own though. You need to take in the whole package to see how useful a multi tool bards are. And with their higher caster level, any scaling spells they cast will be stronger than ones cast by a mage of equivalent experience.
Even Eldoth has some uses. "Kidnap" Skie and you can get 1,000 gold every 2 days, no questions asked. Useful for when you have to save up for those Robes of the Archmagi and Claw/Horn of Khaz'garoth at Thalantyr's store.
I would have liked if Skie was the default single-class thief and romanceable instead. I think there would have been a lot to work with there re: her need to prove herself, dealing with Eldoth leaving her, comforting her over her brother's death etc. Plus it would remove Safana from play. Perfect!
I am usually not lacking gold by the time I get to BG, so that is of limited use to me.
Both Eldoth and Garrick have relatively poor stats, with Eldoth having a bit more health and strength, while Garrick makes a better archer and pickpocket due to Dex. I agree, that the later is probably more useful, but it's not that big of a difference between the two. Voghiln OTH has godly stats in comparison.
But stats are not really that important for bards, so Eldoth and Garrick are still perfectly useful to have. I don't take them often, but it's more me not really enjoying their personality.
For me the problem is that I like to spend a lot of time optimizing my choices of equipment items on each of my party members, and then don't care at all for stripping those items from one companion and putting them on another. So I always, in any RPG I play and not just the original BG games, very strongly favor using the companions I can recruit early in the game over the ones I get to recruit later in the game. I get very attached to my existing party and companions and how I have them all set up, and don't like messing any of that up by swapping in a later companion, which is also why I hate it when games don't give me all of my companions early on in the game because I never get to use the ones I get later in the game.
Comments
That is a surrender and capture of both. I think from a player perspective it is suspicious, and even a smart protagonist should be able to see that too. However, the protagonist can be played however one sees fit, and can be played as oblivious.
It is also my impression that the main thread is that the protagonist seeks the cowled wizards foremost in order to subsequently find the secondary incarcerated target.
I do not think that the power level is really of concern to the protagonist since one can play hubristic.
This being said - there's not really much dialogue about Irenicus in Chapter 2. When charname recruits new party member he often says that his ultimately goal is either (good) rescuing Imoen from the Wizards or get answers from Irenicus who is being held by the Cowled Wizards. In both cases, the dialogue focuses on the Cowled Wizards, not Irenicus. In his journal entries and in dialogue with Gaelan Bayle at the beginning of Chapter 2 it is clear that CHARNAME sees getting the gold as his main obstacle in rescuing Imoen, not increasing their personal power.
In short, there is a mismatch between what you may feel CHARNAME should think and feel and narrative portrayal of CHARNAME in game. I do agree that it might be logical for CHARNAME to be cautious and gather artifacts, but the in-game dialogue and journal entries just do not support that is what CHARNAME is doing.
There's a bit more dialogue in Chapter 3, but delaying the guild war has it's own logical issues, at least if you are on the side of the Shadow Thieves who seem to be losing.
Anyway - while BG 2 is a great game, I think it has to be acknowledged that CHARNAME usually comes across as a bit simple in his motivations. Just look at some of the dialogue entries. And at how he can't really voice any suspicions about Yoshimo when he starts strongly signalling his imminent betrayal on Brynnlaw.
No, this is Irenicus giving them permission and making a demand of them that they comply to. A capture is not voluntary. He's 100% not captured, since he just casually waltzes out and slaughters more cowled wizards later. That's like saying I captured a grizzly bear because it wandered into my house and layed down on the couch.
My contention wasn't that players can't rp whatever they want, its with claims that the game gives no reason for charname to not jump straight into chapters 3/4.
Disagree - Irenicus can likely defeat any single Cowled Wizard in a one-on-one. Maybe he can defeat any three at the same time. Maybe even any 5 - though I really doubt that given the existence of Zallanora.
In the setting setting it does not make sense at all to assume he can defeat them all at once in their own city. Even the in-game dialogue supports this - note how he moves from defiance to deciding to surrender right after a CW points out that they can overwhelm him with numbers. Of course, he's also confident he will be able to escape/salvage things later on.
His taking over Spellhold works because it's relatively isolated and he gets the drop on them.
The bear analogy is wrong. He's captured in the same way a bank robber who tried to shoot his way free is captured after realizing there are too many policemen around for this to be feasible and surrendering.
Irenicus is a good villain not because is is overwhelmingly powerful - though he is so compared to CHARNAME at the start of the game. He's a good villain because he adapts to the situation both with the capture by the CWs and the entire situation in Hell, because he is smart and able to rally strong allies such as drow and vampires to his cause.
Rapture of the Father would disagree with you.
Just in case super cheat death by script spells don't convince you, Irenicus slaughtered all the Cowled Wizards IN THEIR OWN FORTRESS, AND ALREADY UNDER THEIR CONTAINMENT SPELLS. That is significantly more difficult than taking them on in a city. Lots of people and room to undertake guerrilla warfare if needed. Its not even "their" city, they just have authority to operate within it. Irenicus is cannonically demi-god levels of magical power, and nothing in game indicates that the Cowled Wizards are even speedbumps for him.
I4E is probably the most drastic change to BG2 of any mod, and one that, IMO, improves it for the better. Not having to rush off to "save Imoen" means you can play the way you did in BG1, where you eventually find your way to the big, bad boss. It even gives it the same pacing - where you can start off slowly and do side quests, then ramp up the pace as you get into chapter 4.
I now find BG2 to be more enjoyable than BG1 as a result. Bioware should have been beaten with a stick for that stupid trope.
It is very clear that he sees an opportunity in Athkatla and allows himself to be "captured". He knows Imoen is one of the children, and while he is holding out for the bigger prize, he also believes PC will come after her. A mage of his power could have simply teleported out of the area once the first wave of Cowled Wizards went down, but he chose to stay as he saw a way for the CW to hand him his bait. He played it smart, let the CW think they had the upper hand, then jerked their own prison away from them. In the process, he not only got PC to come to him, rather than the other way around, he got a massive upgrade of his lab facilities.
While it is true, by D&D rules, *enough* CW enforcers could deplete his spells, he was still dropping some high level nastiness when he "gave up". While I have no doubt that encounter was enhanced, it is somewhat replicable by using a robe of Vecna, Greater Alacrity, and properly prepared contingencies. Either way, he was pounding the CW enforces like cheap steaks.
So yeah, Irenicus is probably one of the better villains, even compared to Sarevok, who was also a pretty decent villain. Honestly, the weakest villain of the whole series was Mellisan, and her half-baked attempt at subterfuge. Even Caelar was better IMO.
As for the PC, well, you are playing the PC since, you know, it's the "player character". If you don't trust Yoshimo, dump him somewhere or send him into battle alone and don't bother going to a temple afterward. While you may not have PID options to express your thoughts, you can sure as heck act on them. (Though that would be a great mod - PID options that let you express concerns and doubts with party members and get their opinions)
The cutscenes in the government center clearly shows him in the magic bubble. He is captured. That he breaks free very easily is an entirely different matter and shows that being captured was indeed just a clever scheme.
Since he got interrupted by the shadow thieves he needs a new place, and he is smart enough to demand the taking of Imoen considering the rules of Amn. It allows him to experiment further, elegantly first for his sister in order to be prepared for the protagonist and make it a clear success for himself.
Might be that the power of the protagonist is irrelevant and he just knows that separating siblings automatically means the uncaptured one would try to find the other without question, at which point he just needs to wait for the sibling to arrive.
I also doubt that spell hold is home to all of the powerful high level cowled wizards. I mean it is just a prison so you just need one director and cells. Why do you need the entire top management for that? You do not meet the wizards from the Amn license encounters there.
It's fine to interpret the story such that Irenicus' insurmountable strength would obviously justify delaying the PC's pursuit of him, but we need to recognize that the game doesn't treat it as a given that the PC expects a serious showdown with him. On the contrary, there's a distinct lack of dicussion of that question in the actual dialogue.
I prefer to make my own portraits, admitedly with help from the web. The backgrounds are usually from my own photos.
Captured means to be taken by force, which Irenicus was not. But I've derailed this thread for too long.
Unpopular opinion: Shapeshifter is one of the better druid kits.
I love the ten bandit ambush! I love it I tell you!
I do think the discussion is starting to go in circles, so I will lay off in here as well on the topic after this post.
But I do want to point out that Elminster notes in the BG 2 manual that even he would hesitate to break the spellcasting ban in Amn. And that Irenicus had already fended off a Shadow Thieves assault and expended spells for that by the time the CWs confront him. I think it is inconsistent to assume that CHARNAME + party + inmates are stronger in Spellhold than the collective Cowled Wizards in Spellhold or that CHARNAME + party are more powerful by themselves than the CWs in Suldanessellar. But Irenicus suffers a defeat in both instances.
Also - IIRC correctly (it is hard to check BG 2 dialogue online) the entire siding with Bodhi subplot is driven by her wanting to find Irenicus in the same way you are trying to find Imoen or Irenicus, which again speaks against it being just a ploy.
One last observation: it does takes Irenicus some amount of time to take over Spellhold given it happens when you complete Chapter 2. This is tongue-in-cheek but CHARNAME assuming Irenicus is too powerful to confront right away and delaying paying the 15000 GP for that reason makes Irenicus seem less powerful since he requires correspondingly more time to escape.
Well, that fits the title of the thread I guess
But you need to experience it at level one to fully appreciate it's true beauty at level five.
Yesssssssss another joins the enlightened.
Garrick is best bard, discuss.
I am the best bard.
I always used to think Garrick's only use was as someone to feed to Shoal the Nereid but them Beamdog created Rasaad, which made the young bard totally redundant. However, in my current run I have, for the first time, taken Garrick along as a full-time companion. And I love having the cheerful young chap around. He's not much good at spells or fighting or what have you but he is very pleasant company and he is a top man when it comes to identifying stuff.
Plus, wands.
His stats are higher than Eldoth's.
@Maurvir You're judging each facet on its own though. You need to take in the whole package to see how useful a multi tool bards are. And with their higher caster level, any scaling spells they cast will be stronger than ones cast by a mage of equivalent experience.
I would have liked if Skie was the default single-class thief and romanceable instead. I think there would have been a lot to work with there re: her need to prove herself, dealing with Eldoth leaving her, comforting her over her brother's death etc. Plus it would remove Safana from play. Perfect!
Both Eldoth and Garrick have relatively poor stats, with Eldoth having a bit more health and strength, while Garrick makes a better archer and pickpocket due to Dex. I agree, that the later is probably more useful, but it's not that big of a difference between the two. Voghiln OTH has godly stats in comparison.
But stats are not really that important for bards, so Eldoth and Garrick are still perfectly useful to have. I don't take them often, but it's more me not really enjoying their personality.