Although I don't know how to escape Amelyssan's time stop like histamiini did in the vid...
With Ascension, your protagonist gains a new power each time they deal with one of the essence pools. One of those powers grants immunity to Time Stop while it's active.
Balthazar also has that immunity while he's in Lunar Stance, which is most of the time if you don't force him into one of the other stances.
Good job @zaknas . Not only you completed the whole trilogy but also went through the optional challenging fights. One of the best, funniest challenge in any game i've ever played thanks to the great modding community.
On another note, the bhaalspawn power that Jmerry mentionned is Focus. I also wish we could turn off the horrible Balthazar AI. I swear the guy chose the wrong stance and power a majority of the time. Still great to have a companion that can attack during Time Stop however.
Now we can only hope that this thread come back to life a little bit more so we can have our characters added to the Hall of Fame
@XDarkStrikerX I didn't know those were optional fights until now that you point it out... Before this LOB run I had only played on insane difficulty and I always beat everything for fun. When I was doing this run I, as a habit, went and killed everything. Luckily I picked a powerful class, beginner's luck I guess
Oh and the Hall of Fame, it looks like no one has done this with a single class cleric, druid or shaman. (Mr_Salty dualed his priest to a priest/mage in BG2). And from the posts here, it seems everyone only worries about a cleric failing the camp assault fight. But what about Amelyssan? How does a cleric class character win that fight?
@Zaknas Mr Salty also had the bugged LoB Saving Throws which allowed him to 1 shot Belhifet by reloading until a Slay Living managed to land, the -5 penalty does seem present in 2.6 however. If Bel had the same ST glitch in 2.6 that make some creatures have 20 ST for a few rounds, it might still be possible but i'm not personnally trying it any time soon. The biggest issue with Clerics was the lack of access to Enchanted weapon. As i recall, a few players managed to get through the camp but couldn't deal enough damage to defeat Belhifet during the Champion Strength period, so he would regen faster than the priest could deal any damage, ending in a stalemate every time.
Amelyssan should still be vulnerable to Harm so Magic Resistance + a lucky unnerfed Harm should still do the trick. I'm thinking that the Ravager form should be enough for the whole encounter. Roranach's Horn, the Shield of Reflection and Frost Embrace take away a lot of threat from that battle. I wasn't able to facetank the Five as a Sorcerer as i couldn't use shields and helmets, which made the whole thing much more difficult. Still, it was enough to facetank Amelyssan.
Druids get Harm during SoD so they can for sure get lucky and push through SoD which is really the class barrier here (any single class cleric or thief really). A totemic druid would probably have the best chances but it would get pretty boring on the way without dual-classing IMO. Fighters extra THAC0, HLAs and APR really synergize well with other classes so it's hard to pass on.
Ah nice, I think I will try with a Priest of Lathander and the ravager setup someday.
I believe a cleric can beat bel, my C/M fought bel 7 times and I killed him once, may be I was lucky, but a priest of Lathander should perform even better here. Without enchanted weapon a cleric can dual wield blazing glory and the root of the problem. And boon of Lathander add 1 apr, and with speed potion he should be able to do 4 apr? Should be much better than my 3 apr C/M. I used enchanted weapon for the Martyr's Morningstar, but its critical bonus damage shouldn't exceed an extra round of attack.
The players got stalemate probably fought fair and did not exploit the quicksave and load trick to cast spell and drink potions. I won't fight fair because I think LOB is cheating (-11 ac and 5 ST bonus and 3xhp+80... what the hell ). Mr_Salty also removed the 5 summons limit in the camp assaults, I will do the same if I try a cleric.
What about priest of Helm? I've been playing one in a non-LoB setup but am now somewhat tempted to see what can be accomplished with one on LoB difficulty.
Wouldn't they do better against Belhifet than a priest of Lathander? At level 10 a priest of Helm's Seeking Sword lasts 1 turn. It counts as a +4 sword in terms of what it can hit, comes with a +4 Thac0 bonus, and gives 3 APR at 2d4 damage per hit (no damage bonus unfortunately). Damage output can be improved with:
+ Ring of Purity (requires Lawful Good), Zelvdar's Lucky Boots (requires dwarf) and Cloverleaf for +4 Luck, so 6-8 damage per hit,
+ Lon's Amulet (+1 damage) = 7-9 per hit,
+ Legacy of the Masters (+2 damage) = 9-11 per hit
+ violet potion (+14 for 25 STR) = 23-25 damage per hit.
Did I miss any damage boosting gear here?
The priest can dual-wield the Seeking Sword with an off-hand weapon at no Thac0 penalty, for 4 APR. Adding oils of speed ups this to 5 APR. Assuming critical hits will make up for critical misses, and assuming Thac0 can be boosted enough to allow the priest to miss only on critical miss rolls, they'd deal 123 damage per round (Blazing Glory = 2d4 +3). For the Seeking Sword's duration of ten rounds, that would be 1230 damage. LoB Belhifet has 1130 HPs, so the priest should then be able to vanquish Belhifet within a turn.
Now I'm not sure if Thac0 can indeed be improved so much as to guarantee hits on any to hit roll over 1. For one I don't know how many Champion's Strength scrolls can be acquired (let alone where). And HPs can be an issue too, with only (short-lasting) potions of power to boost those. The priest will probably waste a numer of attacks on (potion) buffs/heals and maybe repositioning, etc.
Still the picture doesn't look too ugly for the priest of Helm does it?
@Blackraven
It seems to be an option. I would love to see the cleric class getting more love.
I only have one questuon/suggestion: if the seeking sword does slashing damage, I would switch the luck belt for the one that boosts slashing damage by 10%.
It would boost damage output by 1 (the boost is 2 and you loose 1 damage).
@Blackraven
It seems to be an option. I would love to see the cleric class getting more love.
Same here. Single-classes in general and Clerics in particular. Pity the forum will be down for weeks, because if I'm going to try this, I will need the wealth of info contained in this thread and the help of LoB-specialists too....
@Blackraven
I only have one questuon/suggestion: if the seeking sword does slashing damage, I would switch the luck belt for the one that boosts slashing damage by 10%.
It would boost damage output by 1 (the boost is 2 and you loose 1 damage).
Good point! I thought it was Blade/Swashbuckler only but I must have misremembered. I'm also not sure if it's +10 to base weapon damage or to the total slashing damage output (STR-buffed and otherwise boosted), like you suggest. If so, it would be +4 damage per round, so +40 in one turn.
Another point there: you're not calculating luck correctly. Luck bonuses apply to each die rolled. The expected value and possible range of 2d4 at various luck levels:
Luck -3: 2 (2-2)
Luck -2: 2.5 (2-4)
Luck -1: 3.5 (2-6)
Luck 0: 5 (2-8)
Luck +1: 6.5 (4-8)
Luck +2: 7.5 (6-8)
Luck +3: 8 (8-8)
Luck beyond +3 will only provide a to-hit modifier, not anything to damage. Luck +2 is slightly more damage than you thought luck +4 was.
Yeah I believe a priest of helm can kill bel no problem, even better than a priest of Lathander. Actually I believe even a priest of talos with 3 apr can do it too, but definitely need lots of luck on crit.
What about the 25% slash resistance? I am not sure how bel's resistance works so I assume it is simply 1230 * 0.75 = 922 per round. After the buff fades you can go dual wield other +3 weapons. You should be able to kill him easily. And thac0 shouldn't be a problem either, my C/M with dual wield penalty and she still had -30 thac0 main hand.
There are 12 champion's strength scrolls and at least 12 power of potions in the whole game. And throw in Righteous Magic should give you even more damage?
...WOW... could the ultimate bel killer actually be the weakest class cleric? this is insane.
I am interested in a priest of Lathander because boon of Lathander might be useful in BG2 ravager form? I don't know.
Edit: oh, if I understand jmerry correctly, then you don't need righteous magic if you dual wield seeker sword and blazing glory.
Another point there: you're not calculating luck correctly. Luck bonuses apply to each die rolled. The expected value and possible range of 2d4 at various luck levels:
Luck -3: 2 (2-2)
Luck -2: 2.5 (2-4)
Luck -1: 3.5 (2-6)
Luck 0: 5 (2-8)
Luck +1: 6.5 (4-8)
Luck +2: 7.5 (6-8)
Luck +3: 8 (8-8)
Luck beyond +3 will only provide a to-hit modifier, not anything to damage. Luck +2 is slightly more damage than you thought luck +4 was.
Thanks for pointing this out. That's great. It means that with Zelvdar's boots and the Ring of Purity (chant effect), Cloverleaf is no longer necessary, while there is no trade-off to wearing the Belt of the Skillful Blade.
So Seeking Sword deals 25 (8 base +1 Lon +2 LotM +14 STR) * 1.1 (Skillful Blade) = 27 damage per hit (27.5 rounded down), or 108 damage per round with four APR, and Blazing Glory adds another 28 damage (8+3 base +1 Lon +2 LotM+14) for a total of 136 per round, or 1360 in one turn. Taking Belhifet's DR into account (thanks @zaknas), that translates to 1360 x 0.75 = 1020 damage in one turn if you roll an equal number of critical hits and critical misses. So the priest would then still need a couple of rounds to defeat Belhifet.
However before summoning their Seeking Sword, the priest can still cast Prayer (+1 dmg for one turn at lvl 10) and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (+2 dmg for one turn at lvl 10), to add 15 dmg/round at 5 APR for eight rounds if cast exactly before the Seeking Sword is summoned. It might be good for roughly another 90 dmg, very close to Belhifet's full health. Buffing with the Locket of Embracing buys the priest one round of buff duration BTW.
It still won't be enough dut to Belhifet's regeneration, but it shouldn't take long after the Sword's expired.
@zaknas Slayer form with stacked Boons looks dangerous
Rounding effects apply each hit, and damage resistance is included in that. 25 + belt becomes 27, which becomes 21 after 25% resistance. 28 also becomes 21 after 25% resistance.
So that's exactly 21 per hit, 105 per round with your assumptions.
On Boon of Lathander and the Slayer/Ravager form ... the APR won't help beyond the first. 4 APR base for the form, and you're capped at 5 before haste effects. So you're just looking at +1 attack, damage, and saves per casting after that. Not bad when you attack that many times, but a fully buffed PoL could attack that many times with anything. And manufactured weapons don't cut off your priest spellcasting.
@zaknas Your Cleric/Mage had Martyr's Morningstar isn't it? Due to the critical hits removing a flat 15 HP % it wins the fight pretty much by itself and makes it even better going with Single Weapon style for a 19-20 critical range instead. Usually the problem is that priests lack the APR to be able to end Bel before Champion Strength end, which is where it starts being problematic. I think that CS scrolls are set at 30 rounds/3 turns. If you take the 10 CS right away for -30 Thac0, this leave you 2 turns to down his 1130 hp assuming you don't waste a single one, which is an average of 56,5 damage per rounds after Bel damage resistance of 25%. As weapons should deal around 23-30 damage using legacy of the masters by that point for 26,5 (pretty much what my F/I has), the DPS calculation would look like something like this:
0,95 (accuracy) x 26.5 x 3 apr for 75,525 per round, + 0.05 x 26.5(crit damage) x 3 for 1.325
76.86 x 0.75 (damage resistance) for 57,64, not factoring the extra cleric buffs and luck which would put this a few points higher ( luck + aid + chant which are available from Cloverleaf, Lon's amulet and Ring of Purity). However you also have the Potion of Power factor, which you will have to take before your scrolls and are going to be limited to 10 if you want to have a full 2 turn of Champion Strength + potion of Power. So could it be done? I think so but his regeneration isn't taken into accound here still, it's going to require perfect execution for sure while having a great amount of luck, probably much easier with a Priest of Lathander due to the added damage and stackable APR IMO. Of course using the quicksave/load exploit you mentionned could help, but i never tried it so i'm not sure how it works.
This is what make the Cavalier so good at kiling Belhifet without any luck factor, much better than any Cleric could dream of: Immune to fear and poison by default, can use Invulnerability/Heroism potions, can use Champion Strength, fighter APR and Thac0, way more weapon choices like Drizzt scimitars which helps with AC to limit damage receive as much as possible.
A 1 HP Blade, or anything that can use the Martyr Morning Star with enchanted weapon scrolls also have an easy time it could also probably do the same approach as your Cleric/Mage. Any fighter mage also don't have any issues with Enchanted weapons, high APR and access to fighter potions which really make the whole thing much easier.
I wonder however if the effect of the MMS could be shared to the main hand like Belm or the Scarlet Ninjato as i never killed Bel while dual wielding myself, like if it make all crits lower total HP by 15% or only the crits of the weapon itself. Not sure if wasting an offhand attack for better main hand crits would be worth it however, it would definitely matter if you cannot end Belhifet during the CS period however.
Edit: with maximum luck (damage roll shouldn't exceed the max as far as i know, you would just get maximum damage every time) DPS for 30 maximum damage would be 65.26 per round. Much more achievable under the Save and reload exploit that Zaknas mentionned.
@XDarkStrikerX, yeah your calculation reflects much of my C/M experience. But Blackraven's calculation has shown a priest of Helm could kill bel in like 13 rounds with 5 apr and it doesn't depend on luck.
And I dug up histamiini's Cavalier vid, he started hacking bel at 6:45 and finished as 8:45, I think he was playing at 30fps and let's assume he had the best dps gear (may be not as he could have traded dps for survivability), so 2 turns: https://youtu.be/OLq2RO8BebY
Of course, Cavalier has much better survivability, but my C/M survived long enough without much trouble, had to drink from the goblet every round so no time to recast anything but it was okay. I expect a priest of Helm's survivability would be the same. So even if a priest of Helm isn't better at killing bel, it is still very great, after all it is the puny class cleric
But I am not so sure about the power of Martyr's Morningstar. For a C/M, 15% crit bonus damage is 350*15%*0.75 = 39 when hit right? And let's assume normal hit deals 20 dmg after resistance. In 20 turns with single weapon style, there are 40 attacks, 4 crit hits, 2 misses, 34 normal hits, so 39*4 (martyr) + 40*4 (crit) + 20 * 34 (normal hit) = 996 damage (after resistance). With 2 weapon style martyr main hand again swings 40 times and 2 crits 2 misses 36 hits so 39*2 + 40*2 + 20*36 = 878 damage. However the offhand will swing 20 times and so 20*20 (crits compensate misses) = 400 damage. So dual wield will give 878+400 = 1278 dmg, an extra 1278-996 = 282 damage over single style martyr.
This is exactly how histamiini's told his C/M story, he wield martyr single style and couldn't kill bel before the champion scroll wore off. He made it in the end relying on crit alone.
And for a generic cleric who can't use Martyr, assume again it's 20 damage per hit. So dual wield dmg in 20 rounds with 3 apr = 60 attacks * 20 = 1200 (after damage resistance).
Look at it the other way, martyr in dual wield situation only crit twice and only gives 78 extra damage compared to normal dual wield, actually less as martyr is a +2 weapon and while we need a +3 for normal dual wield.
My C/M struggled that much (6 deaths in 7 attempts) mainly because I lost a few rounds for the cutscene and escaping bel's dispel. Let's say it was 5 rounds so I could only do around 900 dmg to bel before the buff wore off, and yeah that's why I got killed 6 times...
But you told me that the cutscene can be skipped, let's say it will save 3 rounds? then the dmg is back up to 1080 for a generic cleric. Shouldn't require a lot of luck.
And for a PoL or PoH, they should be able to whack bel like a baby.
12 power potions last for 29 rounds after drinking, champion's strength last for 27 rounds, so 11 scrolls, will last for 17 rounds, not including cutscene and dodging bel's dispel and assume perfect execution. That's why I used the save load exploit. It's easy, drink a potion and save immediately, load that save and drink again.
And I don't know why, in Mr_Salty's adventure, they suggested only using 6 champion scrolls to pre buff, and save the other 6 for rebuffing during the battle. Seems like they could reach a much better thac0 than I could without buffing. Don't know if they really tested it in the end, but if it could be done, then you would have even more rounds to hack bel.
I think martyr's 15% bonus won't affect the other weapon?... it's way too powerful if it does.
Edit: okay after thinking a bit more, even MMS 15% shares with the other weapon it's not that much, in 20 rounds the off hand will only crit once, so only 39 more damage.
But I am not so sure about the power of Martyr's Morningstar. For a C/M, 15% crit bonus damage is 350*15%*0.75 = 39 when hit right? And let's assume normal hit deals 20 dmg after resistance. In 20 turns with single weapon style, there are 40 attacks, 4 crit hits, 2 misses, 34 normal hits, so 39*4 (martyr) + 40*4 (crit) + 20 * 34 (normal hit) = 996 damage (after resistance). With 2 weapon style martyr main hand again swings 40 times and 2 crits 2 misses 36 hits so 39*2 + 40*2 + 20*36 = 878 damage. However the offhand will swing 20 times and so 20*20 (crits compensate misses) = 400 damage. So dual wield will give 878+400 = 1278 dmg, an extra 1278-996 = 282 damage over single style martyr.
Isn't Martyr's more competitive than that? You've assumed Belhifet's normal HPs above, but he has 1,130 in LoB. It's not a weapon I've ever used, but won't the damage be based on his LoB HPs - so a single hit would do 126 bonus damage per hit, meaning it should do slightly more damage on average than dual-wielding?
@Grond0 You're right, this is what makes the MMS so great. One can expect to down Belhitet in around 8 crits, which happens on average once every 10 attacks, which would also mean 3 crits per 10 rounds and Bel dying in less than 30 rounds.
@zaknas Cavalier also has bonus damage against demon at +3 with being able to be specialized with melee weapons for another +2 (forgot to mention that). For 30 damage per round, this is a 17% DPS increase. If i remember right, Bel regen is 2 hp per rounds so you've got to add that extra HP at the end of your total expected number of rounds.
@Grond0 wiki says about martyr: "On a critical hit, target loses 15% of their maximum Hit Points (crushing dmg, no save, no counting LoB HP bonus)", so we should use 350 hp to calculate dps. That's why I really think LOB is cheating... buffing monster that much while nerfing our weapons, so unfair https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Martyr%27s_Morningstar
@XDarkStrikerX 2hp/round, 26 hp in 13 rounds or 40 hp in 20 rounds. Translates to an extra 1 or 2 hits, which happens in less than 1 round, isn't that much. Both Cavalier and PoH are dealing insane damage here so regen is not significance.
Holy crap that +5 damage is a lot. Now I understand why in the vid histamiini's cavalier did around 25 dmg a hit. How many apr does a Cavalier has? Never played one before so can I assume 4 apr? Then it would be 4*25 = 100 dmg a round and 1000 dmg a turn. Blackraven's PoH can do 1020 a turn with 5 apr. Wow they are really close. But my calculation must have got something wrong as it took histamiini 2 turns to kill bel and my math says 12 rounds (including regen). 8 rounds are unaccounted for, that's a lot.
However, PoH needs to re-summon the seeking sword, which may be impossible as he will need to constantly heal himself. And re-summon will also need an extra round I think. Failing that, PoH has to dual wield normal +3 weapon at 3 apr. The bigger problem is that he may even lose 1 apr every round just because of the act of clicking buttons to drink potion (my C/M had to...). Cavalier does not need to drink potion frequently and he has no such problem.
But hey, it's still amazing that a cleric can do this well, I have never imagined it can come close to a fighter class character
Even though i quit gaming (real life just got more magic) i have to drop a comment here. On the one hand i am quite happy that are still new challengers banging their head deep into the game. Very cool stuff. ;o)
On the other hand the challenge has not only grown into dimensions where no one had walked before but... hey, hey... exactly five years ago the whole thing started here... with kind contenders like @Grond0 and @Blackraven who gave me lots of new insight. Many more like the demi-gods @semiticgoddess and @histamiini followed making the impossible looking like a walk in the park. ;o)
Hope there will be still some life in this challenge even though i wont participate any more. But what i can do at least is updating the Hall of Fame. Just give me the infos and i will put your heroes on the list.
@Grond0 wiki says about martyr: "On a critical hit, target loses 15% of their maximum Hit Points (crushing dmg, no save, no counting LoB HP bonus)", so we should use 350 hp to calculate dps. That's why I really think LOB is cheating... buffing monster that much while nerfing our weapons, so unfair https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Martyr%27s_Morningstar
It seemed a bit odd to me that the game engine would be able to pull out the non-LoB HPs in that situation, so I drafted a post suggesting someone tested it - and then thought I might as well do it myself .
Here's a screenshot of the result:
The 15% loss of HPs appears to be directly applied - it's certainly not crushing damage as there's no damage reduction. The base HPs used for the calculation is indeed the full 1,130 of Belhifet's LoB total.
With damage of 169 + normal weapon damage, using Martyr's together with single weapon style looks like a pretty good option for characters that can both wield it and use arcane magic.
Before someone rolls up a Cleric of Helm, note that I was wrong about Zelvdar's Lucky Boots. I just looked them up in EEKeeper and it turns out they offer Dwarves +3 to saves and do not provide any luck bonuses. In my defense I was just spitballing when I brought up the Priest of Helm before. I hadn't (and haven't) played SoD in almost a year. Righteous Magic could be pre-cast to still ensure max damage for one turn.
@zaknas the video was made before the -11 ac was implemented into LoB so i guess that the accuracy wasn't perfect as Champion Strength Scrolls were not needed back then and wasn't even though about. Also the dice luck for rolls would be at +3 at best i think so the cavalier will not deal maximum damage every time.
@Grond0 looks like MMS is even better than i though!
@Blackraven I'm really eager to see a single class priest get through Bel without the bugged 2.5 ST However i think that CS scrolls disable spells, which means that you would have to cast Righteous Magic before using the scrolls.
@Harpagornis glad to hear from you again! Thanks for starting one of the most interesting challenge that i've ever played through in a videogame Also one of the post that i enjoyed reading through the most by far. Will give you an update on my 2 completions probably tomorrow as my old phone struggle with the website a bit and i don't remember the name of my two bhaalspawns Take care!
@Grond0 Nice. Let me recalculate the dps for a C/M. Again within 20 rounds, assuming 20 dmg per hit (after resistance)
Single weapon style: 40 attacks, 4 crits, 2 misses, 34 normal hits
so 169*4 (martyr) + 40*4 (crit) + 20 * 34 (normal hit) = 1516 damage (after resistance).
2 weapon style martyr main hand: 40 attacks, 2 crits, 2 misses, 36 hits
so 169*2 + 40*2 + 20*36 = 1138 damage.
Offhand: 20 attacks, 20 hits (crits compensate misses) = 400 damage.
So dual wield will give 1138+400 = 1538 dmg, an extra 1538-1516 = 22 damage over single style martyr.
okay very close, but I think single style martyr has an advantage here because it should be able to give much higher burst damage if lucky.
Compared to the 1200 dmg output of a generic cleric with 3 apr, yes martyr is great.
and now I wonder why my C/M struggled that much... probably I lost more rounds of champion's strength buff than I thought.
@XDarkStrikerX ah yeah that -11 AC! So Cavaliers' full potential should be around 1000 dmg per turn. Then my question becomes, is a C/M wielding martyr the best bel killer??? what? , but of course we need the quicksave and load exploit for a C/M and perfect execution... Cavaliers can just do it fair and square in relax mode.
Edit: forgot the time unit, C/M does 1500 dmg in 2 turns, Cavalier does 1000 dmg in 1 turn, Cavalier deals much better damage.
@Harpagornis Thanks for starting this thread so we have a place to discuss and learn how to beat this LOB SCS adventure. I wish I could have joined you guys from the beginning, I found this post a little bit late. I have a character who beat the challenge, Lady Rose The Cleric/Mage. Her whole story are on page 218 of this thread.
and now I wonder why my C/M struggled that much... probably I lost more rounds of champion's strength buff than I thought.
@zaknas another thing that may be going on is the result of the horde of creatures in that fight. I only play no-reload and don't allow practice fights - with the result that I have very limited experience of Belhifet in LoB . However, the fight can get pretty congested. In that situation you're bound to be bumped around a bit and, whenever you get either bumped or hit, you get staggered slightly - which can sometimes result in losing an attack (you can see that happening regularly to enemies in BG2 when attacking them with high APR). Your theoretically available attacks may thus be difficult to achieve in that fight - even if you're able to keep toe-to-toe with Belhifet all the time, which I don't think is guaranteed.
ah yes could have lost attacks because of constantly getting hit too. This loss could be even bigger for a PoH as he has 5 apr? I still have confidence he can beat bel easily though, PoL should be no problem either. But now a generic cleric may have trouble.
And I don't remember bel re-cast invis during my fight. Bel is level 25, so his improved invis should last for 28 rounds, and I beat him in like 16 or 17 rounds with a couple of lucky crits.
@zaknas Any fighter/mage character has a much easier time overall than a C/M due to more APR with the MMS itself and fighter potions which takes any duration issues so unless you cannot take away Bel during the duration of 2x enchanted weapon or 20x goblet charge. After a few tests, it takes on average for my F/I with 500+ hp an average of 20 rounds to win with 6-8 goblet charges on double damage (good starting sequencer protection using Mirror Image, Improved Invisibility and Stoneskin, didn't bother with Fireshield Blue for extra damage, also used Strength+ Strength sequencer on Bel to set his strength to 18/50), the only downside being no access to CS. A Fighter/Mage/Cleric would have all of those tools at their disposal, making them potentially better than Cavalier who has no access to MMS 15% crits. His Improved Invisibility casting indeed takes away a few swings and makes him untargettable for a few seconds, which made weapons like the Fractal Blade horrible for it entirely due to this so it can be good to take into account.
Histaminii's last fight with a Cavalier took around 15 rounds for a win so i'd say that our current assumptions on DPS are becoming pretty accurate. I still don't think that any single class cleric of any kind is going to be as simple as that for some reasons, that fight always have a surprise that i forget about until i get there which requires last minute adjustments. This is also assuming that you will have absolutely no need for any Bel tools for the ambush, which Mr Salty didn't have to care about due to Slay Living, which also might still have a ''guaranteed'' grace period in 2.6 as Bel could have 20 ST for a few seconds like a few other bugged encounters. If it happens during that fight, it could also open a possibility for a quick LR + WoPoly attempt involving reloads. It's relying on a bug, unfair but.... so is the challenge I keep the hope of eventually finding a way to break the encounter for all class to be able to push through... someday maybe.
@Harpagornis little update for my completions, Sirus the F/I and Vega the Sorcerer, no specific additional challenges listed on the first page.
Edit: It seems that Bel could have some kind of grace period in 2.6 for a few rounds... for anything but saves vs spells.
From what I've seen of that saving throw bug, it only applies to saves that would be reduced to less than zero by the LoB bonus. Which generally only happens for high-level monsters. It seems to be pretty consistent when that condition is met.
Belhifet's base save array looks like it matches a level 15-16 paladin.
Comments
@alice_ashpool yes
With Ascension, your protagonist gains a new power each time they deal with one of the essence pools. One of those powers grants immunity to Time Stop while it's active.
Balthazar also has that immunity while he's in Lunar Stance, which is most of the time if you don't force him into one of the other stances.
On another note, the bhaalspawn power that Jmerry mentionned is Focus. I also wish we could turn off the horrible Balthazar AI. I swear the guy chose the wrong stance and power a majority of the time. Still great to have a companion that can attack during Time Stop however.
Now we can only hope that this thread come back to life a little bit more so we can have our characters added to the Hall of Fame
Oh and the Hall of Fame, it looks like no one has done this with a single class cleric, druid or shaman. (Mr_Salty dualed his priest to a priest/mage in BG2). And from the posts here, it seems everyone only worries about a cleric failing the camp assault fight. But what about Amelyssan? How does a cleric class character win that fight?
Amelyssan should still be vulnerable to Harm so Magic Resistance + a lucky unnerfed Harm should still do the trick. I'm thinking that the Ravager form should be enough for the whole encounter. Roranach's Horn, the Shield of Reflection and Frost Embrace take away a lot of threat from that battle. I wasn't able to facetank the Five as a Sorcerer as i couldn't use shields and helmets, which made the whole thing much more difficult. Still, it was enough to facetank Amelyssan.
Druids get Harm during SoD so they can for sure get lucky and push through SoD which is really the class barrier here (any single class cleric or thief really). A totemic druid would probably have the best chances but it would get pretty boring on the way without dual-classing IMO. Fighters extra THAC0, HLAs and APR really synergize well with other classes so it's hard to pass on.
I believe a cleric can beat bel, my C/M fought bel 7 times and I killed him once, may be I was lucky, but a priest of Lathander should perform even better here. Without enchanted weapon a cleric can dual wield blazing glory and the root of the problem. And boon of Lathander add 1 apr, and with speed potion he should be able to do 4 apr? Should be much better than my 3 apr C/M. I used enchanted weapon for the Martyr's Morningstar, but its critical bonus damage shouldn't exceed an extra round of attack.
The players got stalemate probably fought fair and did not exploit the quicksave and load trick to cast spell and drink potions. I won't fight fair because I think LOB is cheating (-11 ac and 5 ST bonus and 3xhp+80... what the hell
Wouldn't they do better against Belhifet than a priest of Lathander? At level 10 a priest of Helm's Seeking Sword lasts 1 turn. It counts as a +4 sword in terms of what it can hit, comes with a +4 Thac0 bonus, and gives 3 APR at 2d4 damage per hit (no damage bonus unfortunately). Damage output can be improved with:
+ Ring of Purity (requires Lawful Good), Zelvdar's Lucky Boots (requires dwarf) and Cloverleaf for +4 Luck, so 6-8 damage per hit,
+ Lon's Amulet (+1 damage) = 7-9 per hit,
+ Legacy of the Masters (+2 damage) = 9-11 per hit
+ violet potion (+14 for 25 STR) = 23-25 damage per hit.
Did I miss any damage boosting gear here?
The priest can dual-wield the Seeking Sword with an off-hand weapon at no Thac0 penalty, for 4 APR. Adding oils of speed ups this to 5 APR. Assuming critical hits will make up for critical misses, and assuming Thac0 can be boosted enough to allow the priest to miss only on critical miss rolls, they'd deal 123 damage per round (Blazing Glory = 2d4 +3). For the Seeking Sword's duration of ten rounds, that would be 1230 damage. LoB Belhifet has 1130 HPs, so the priest should then be able to vanquish Belhifet within a turn.
Now I'm not sure if Thac0 can indeed be improved so much as to guarantee hits on any to hit roll over 1. For one I don't know how many Champion's Strength scrolls can be acquired (let alone where). And HPs can be an issue too, with only (short-lasting) potions of power to boost those. The priest will probably waste a numer of attacks on (potion) buffs/heals and maybe repositioning, etc.
Still the picture doesn't look too ugly for the priest of Helm does it?
It seems to be an option. I would love to see the cleric class getting more love.
I only have one questuon/suggestion: if the seeking sword does slashing damage, I would switch the luck belt for the one that boosts slashing damage by 10%.
It would boost damage output by 1 (the boost is 2 and you loose 1 damage).
Same here. Single-classes in general and Clerics in particular. Pity the forum will be down for weeks, because if I'm going to try this, I will need the wealth of info contained in this thread and the help of LoB-specialists too....
Good point! I thought it was Blade/Swashbuckler only but I must have misremembered. I'm also not sure if it's +10 to base weapon damage or to the total slashing damage output (STR-buffed and otherwise boosted), like you suggest. If so, it would be +4 damage per round, so +40 in one turn.
Luck -3: 2 (2-2)
Luck -2: 2.5 (2-4)
Luck -1: 3.5 (2-6)
Luck 0: 5 (2-8)
Luck +1: 6.5 (4-8)
Luck +2: 7.5 (6-8)
Luck +3: 8 (8-8)
Luck beyond +3 will only provide a to-hit modifier, not anything to damage. Luck +2 is slightly more damage than you thought luck +4 was.
What about the 25% slash resistance? I am not sure how bel's resistance works so I assume it is simply 1230 * 0.75 = 922 per round. After the buff fades you can go dual wield other +3 weapons. You should be able to kill him easily. And thac0 shouldn't be a problem either, my C/M with dual wield penalty and she still had -30 thac0 main hand.
There are 12 champion's strength scrolls and at least 12 power of potions in the whole game. And throw in Righteous Magic should give you even more damage?
...WOW... could the ultimate bel killer actually be the weakest class cleric? this is insane.
I am interested in a priest of Lathander because boon of Lathander might be useful in BG2 ravager form? I don't know.
Edit: oh, if I understand jmerry correctly, then you don't need righteous magic if you dual wield seeker sword and blazing glory.
Thanks for pointing this out. That's great. It means that with Zelvdar's boots and the Ring of Purity (chant effect), Cloverleaf is no longer necessary, while there is no trade-off to wearing the Belt of the Skillful Blade.
So Seeking Sword deals 25 (8 base +1 Lon +2 LotM +14 STR) * 1.1 (Skillful Blade) = 27 damage per hit (27.5 rounded down), or 108 damage per round with four APR, and Blazing Glory adds another 28 damage (8+3 base +1 Lon +2 LotM+14) for a total of 136 per round, or 1360 in one turn. Taking Belhifet's DR into account (thanks @zaknas), that translates to 1360 x 0.75 = 1020 damage in one turn if you roll an equal number of critical hits and critical misses. So the priest would then still need a couple of rounds to defeat Belhifet.
However before summoning their Seeking Sword, the priest can still cast Prayer (+1 dmg for one turn at lvl 10) and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (+2 dmg for one turn at lvl 10), to add 15 dmg/round at 5 APR for eight rounds if cast exactly before the Seeking Sword is summoned. It might be good for roughly another 90 dmg, very close to Belhifet's full health. Buffing with the Locket of Embracing buys the priest one round of buff duration BTW.
It still won't be enough dut to Belhifet's regeneration, but it shouldn't take long after the Sword's expired.
@zaknas Slayer form with stacked Boons looks dangerous
So that's exactly 21 per hit, 105 per round with your assumptions.
On Boon of Lathander and the Slayer/Ravager form ... the APR won't help beyond the first. 4 APR base for the form, and you're capped at 5 before haste effects. So you're just looking at +1 attack, damage, and saves per casting after that. Not bad when you attack that many times, but a fully buffed PoL could attack that many times with anything. And manufactured weapons don't cut off your priest spellcasting.
0,95 (accuracy) x 26.5 x 3 apr for 75,525 per round, + 0.05 x 26.5(crit damage) x 3 for 1.325
76.86 x 0.75 (damage resistance) for 57,64, not factoring the extra cleric buffs and luck which would put this a few points higher ( luck + aid + chant which are available from Cloverleaf, Lon's amulet and Ring of Purity). However you also have the Potion of Power factor, which you will have to take before your scrolls and are going to be limited to 10 if you want to have a full 2 turn of Champion Strength + potion of Power. So could it be done? I think so but his regeneration isn't taken into accound here still, it's going to require perfect execution for sure while having a great amount of luck, probably much easier with a Priest of Lathander due to the added damage and stackable APR IMO. Of course using the quicksave/load exploit you mentionned could help, but i never tried it so i'm not sure how it works.
This is what make the Cavalier so good at kiling Belhifet without any luck factor, much better than any Cleric could dream of: Immune to fear and poison by default, can use Invulnerability/Heroism potions, can use Champion Strength, fighter APR and Thac0, way more weapon choices like Drizzt scimitars which helps with AC to limit damage receive as much as possible.
A 1 HP Blade, or anything that can use the Martyr Morning Star with enchanted weapon scrolls also have an easy time it could also probably do the same approach as your Cleric/Mage. Any fighter mage also don't have any issues with Enchanted weapons, high APR and access to fighter potions which really make the whole thing much easier.
I wonder however if the effect of the MMS could be shared to the main hand like Belm or the Scarlet Ninjato as i never killed Bel while dual wielding myself, like if it make all crits lower total HP by 15% or only the crits of the weapon itself. Not sure if wasting an offhand attack for better main hand crits would be worth it however, it would definitely matter if you cannot end Belhifet during the CS period however.
Edit: with maximum luck (damage roll shouldn't exceed the max as far as i know, you would just get maximum damage every time) DPS for 30 maximum damage would be 65.26 per round. Much more achievable under the Save and reload exploit that Zaknas mentionned.
And I dug up histamiini's Cavalier vid, he started hacking bel at 6:45 and finished as 8:45, I think he was playing at 30fps and let's assume he had the best dps gear (may be not as he could have traded dps for survivability), so 2 turns:
https://youtu.be/OLq2RO8BebY
Of course, Cavalier has much better survivability, but my C/M survived long enough without much trouble, had to drink from the goblet every round so no time to recast anything but it was okay. I expect a priest of Helm's survivability would be the same. So even if a priest of Helm isn't better at killing bel, it is still very great, after all it is the puny class cleric
But I am not so sure about the power of Martyr's Morningstar. For a C/M, 15% crit bonus damage is 350*15%*0.75 = 39 when hit right? And let's assume normal hit deals 20 dmg after resistance. In 20 turns with single weapon style, there are 40 attacks, 4 crit hits, 2 misses, 34 normal hits, so 39*4 (martyr) + 40*4 (crit) + 20 * 34 (normal hit) = 996 damage (after resistance). With 2 weapon style martyr main hand again swings 40 times and 2 crits 2 misses 36 hits so 39*2 + 40*2 + 20*36 = 878 damage. However the offhand will swing 20 times and so 20*20 (crits compensate misses) = 400 damage. So dual wield will give 878+400 = 1278 dmg, an extra 1278-996 = 282 damage over single style martyr.
This is exactly how histamiini's told his C/M story, he wield martyr single style and couldn't kill bel before the champion scroll wore off. He made it in the end relying on crit alone.
And for a generic cleric who can't use Martyr, assume again it's 20 damage per hit. So dual wield dmg in 20 rounds with 3 apr = 60 attacks * 20 = 1200 (after damage resistance).
Look at it the other way, martyr in dual wield situation only crit twice and only gives 78 extra damage compared to normal dual wield, actually less as martyr is a +2 weapon and while we need a +3 for normal dual wield.
My C/M struggled that much (6 deaths in 7 attempts) mainly because I lost a few rounds for the cutscene and escaping bel's dispel. Let's say it was 5 rounds so I could only do around 900 dmg to bel before the buff wore off, and yeah that's why I got killed 6 times...
But you told me that the cutscene can be skipped, let's say it will save 3 rounds? then the dmg is back up to 1080 for a generic cleric. Shouldn't require a lot of luck.
And for a PoL or PoH, they should be able to whack bel like a baby.
And I don't know why, in Mr_Salty's adventure, they suggested only using 6 champion scrolls to pre buff, and save the other 6 for rebuffing during the battle. Seems like they could reach a much better thac0 than I could without buffing. Don't know if they really tested it in the end, but if it could be done, then you would have even more rounds to hack bel.
I think martyr's 15% bonus won't affect the other weapon?... it's way too powerful if it does.
Edit: okay after thinking a bit more, even MMS 15% shares with the other weapon it's not that much, in 20 rounds the off hand will only crit once, so only 39 more damage.
Isn't Martyr's more competitive than that? You've assumed Belhifet's normal HPs above, but he has 1,130 in LoB. It's not a weapon I've ever used, but won't the damage be based on his LoB HPs - so a single hit would do 126 bonus damage per hit, meaning it should do slightly more damage on average than dual-wielding?
@zaknas Cavalier also has bonus damage against demon at +3 with being able to be specialized with melee weapons for another +2 (forgot to mention that). For 30 damage per round, this is a 17% DPS increase. If i remember right, Bel regen is 2 hp per rounds so you've got to add that extra HP at the end of your total expected number of rounds.
https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Martyr%27s_Morningstar
@XDarkStrikerX 2hp/round, 26 hp in 13 rounds or 40 hp in 20 rounds. Translates to an extra 1 or 2 hits, which happens in less than 1 round, isn't that much. Both Cavalier and PoH are dealing insane damage here so regen is not significance.
Holy crap that +5 damage is a lot. Now I understand why in the vid histamiini's cavalier did around 25 dmg a hit. How many apr does a Cavalier has? Never played one before so can I assume 4 apr? Then it would be 4*25 = 100 dmg a round and 1000 dmg a turn. Blackraven's PoH can do 1020 a turn with 5 apr. Wow they are really close. But my calculation must have got something wrong as it took histamiini 2 turns to kill bel and my math says 12 rounds (including regen). 8 rounds are unaccounted for, that's a lot.
However, PoH needs to re-summon the seeking sword, which may be impossible as he will need to constantly heal himself. And re-summon will also need an extra round I think. Failing that, PoH has to dual wield normal +3 weapon at 3 apr. The bigger problem is that he may even lose 1 apr every round just because of the act of clicking buttons to drink potion (my C/M had to...). Cavalier does not need to drink potion frequently and he has no such problem.
But hey, it's still amazing that a cleric can do this well, I have never imagined it can come close to a fighter class character
Even though i quit gaming (real life just got more magic) i have to drop a comment here. On the one hand i am quite happy that are still new challengers banging their head deep into the game. Very cool stuff. ;o)
On the other hand the challenge has not only grown into dimensions where no one had walked before but... hey, hey... exactly five years ago the whole thing started here... with kind contenders like @Grond0 and @Blackraven who gave me lots of new insight. Many more like the demi-gods @semiticgoddess and @histamiini followed making the impossible looking like a walk in the park. ;o)
Hope there will be still some life in this challenge even though i wont participate any more. But what i can do at least is updating the Hall of Fame. Just give me the infos and i will put your heroes on the list.
Good hunting!
It seemed a bit odd to me that the game engine would be able to pull out the non-LoB HPs in that situation, so I drafted a post suggesting someone tested it - and then thought I might as well do it myself
Here's a screenshot of the result:
With damage of 169 + normal weapon damage, using Martyr's together with single weapon style looks like a pretty good option for characters that can both wield it and use arcane magic.
@Grond0 looks like MMS is even better than i though!
@Blackraven I'm really eager to see a single class priest get through Bel without the bugged 2.5 ST
@Harpagornis glad to hear from you again! Thanks for starting one of the most interesting challenge that i've ever played through in a videogame
Single weapon style: 40 attacks, 4 crits, 2 misses, 34 normal hits
so 169*4 (martyr) + 40*4 (crit) + 20 * 34 (normal hit) = 1516 damage (after resistance).
2 weapon style martyr main hand: 40 attacks, 2 crits, 2 misses, 36 hits
so 169*2 + 40*2 + 20*36 = 1138 damage.
Offhand: 20 attacks, 20 hits (crits compensate misses) = 400 damage.
So dual wield will give 1138+400 = 1538 dmg, an extra 1538-1516 = 22 damage over single style martyr.
okay very close, but I think single style martyr has an advantage here because it should be able to give much higher burst damage if lucky.
Compared to the 1200 dmg output of a generic cleric with 3 apr, yes martyr is great.
and now I wonder why my C/M struggled that much... probably I lost more rounds of champion's strength buff than I thought.
@XDarkStrikerX ah yeah that -11 AC! So Cavaliers' full potential should be around 1000 dmg per turn. Then my question becomes, is a C/M wielding martyr the best bel killer??? what?
Edit: forgot the time unit, C/M does 1500 dmg in 2 turns, Cavalier does 1000 dmg in 1 turn, Cavalier deals much better damage.
@Harpagornis Thanks for starting this thread so we have a place to discuss and learn how to beat this LOB SCS adventure. I wish I could have joined you guys from the beginning, I found this post a little bit late. I have a character who beat the challenge, Lady Rose The Cleric/Mage. Her whole story are on page 218 of this thread.
@zaknas another thing that may be going on is the result of the horde of creatures in that fight. I only play no-reload and don't allow practice fights - with the result that I have very limited experience of Belhifet in LoB
And I don't remember bel re-cast invis during my fight. Bel is level 25, so his improved invis should last for 28 rounds, and I beat him in like 16 or 17 rounds with a couple of lucky crits.
Histaminii's last fight with a Cavalier took around 15 rounds for a win so i'd say that our current assumptions on DPS are becoming pretty accurate. I still don't think that any single class cleric of any kind is going to be as simple as that for some reasons, that fight always have a surprise that i forget about until i get there which requires last minute adjustments. This is also assuming that you will have absolutely no need for any Bel tools for the ambush, which Mr Salty didn't have to care about due to Slay Living, which also might still have a ''guaranteed'' grace period in 2.6 as Bel could have 20 ST for a few seconds like a few other bugged encounters. If it happens during that fight, it could also open a possibility for a quick LR + WoPoly attempt involving reloads. It's relying on a bug, unfair but.... so is the challenge
@Harpagornis little update for my completions, Sirus the F/I and Vega the Sorcerer, no specific additional challenges listed on the first page.
Edit: It seems that Bel could have some kind of grace period in 2.6 for a few rounds... for anything but saves vs spells.
Belhifet's base save array looks like it matches a level 15-16 paladin.