Even with that short list of mods, Kivan has total 9 pips...
BTW, could you tell me how this conversion works? Is it just trying to translate current pips of a NPC to the new system or maybe there are hardcoded new style pips for every NPC? The latter would mean that mod NPC would have totally crazy stuff there, right?
I love this system. AFAIK they introduced those small groups of weapons in BG2 to slower the progress and give more importance to pips, but you addressed it much better by just adding new proficiencies which could be useful for the other classes than warriors.
I'm thinking about it and it's 100% you not installing EET_END prior to Skills and Abilities. Reason being, Skills and Abilities treats recruitable NPCs differently than other NPCs in the assignment of proficiencies.
So what is going on?
EET pulls in BG1EE resources into BG2EE and then finalizes them in EET_END. Before EET_END runs, pdialog.2da is incomplete and doesn't reflect BG1 NPCs. I use this file to check for which NPCs to treat as recruitable NPCs. So basically in your install I am looking at pdialog.2da and it does not show Kivan and the other BG1 NPCs because you haven't installed EET_END yet. I know I can do checks against other files to compare against for BG1 NPCs, but overall, this mod should come after EET_END and those checks really shouldn't be occurring. Just install after EET_END and you'll have a good install.
Why do I treat recruitable NPCs differently than non-recruitable ones?
Recruitable NPCs I want to have the exact right amount of pips they are allotted, not more. Enemies on the other hand I really don't care if they have the correct amount and am prone to give them more profs than they may normally be allotted. This is because the base game may give an enemy pips in a weapon they don't even have. It would be silly to penalize that NPC and not give them something that may actually now be useful to them. So I just give enemies generally, a little bit extra but within reason for what would be appropriate for their class and level.
How do I do my checks for recruitable NPCs?
I cycle through all creatures and identify which ones are recruitable based off pdialog.2da. For these, I read in what pips they have assigned in each weapon type and determine if any weapon groups overlap (e.g., pips in Bastard Sword and Longsword). For overlap, I determine how much is now free to spend in other pips. I then check which ruleset is being used (e.g., normal, accelerated, NWN style pips) and then calculate based on the NPC class and level how many pips they have to distribute. In the case above, I would populate the new Large Sword prof with the the appropriate number of pips and then look at other prof categories that would be applicable with the extra number of pips that I have available. Is the character wearing plate armor? If so, I will put at least 1 pip into heavy armor. Is the character equipped with a bow? Then they can apply pips in the new archery prof. And I then look at class, etc. to determine what would be the most appropriate distribution that I would do as a player.
Do you know if your class and kits changes could be used atop of Artisans Kitpack, Morpheus? I would especially like to pair the Fighter changes of both mods.
Do you know if your class and kits changes could be used atop of Artisans Kitpack, Morpheus? I would especially like to pair the Fighter changes of both mods.
I don't think so and I've heard some reports components are not compatible between the two now. In the past I've taken extra steps to make sure our stuff works together, but Artisan seems determined to make our stuff not work. Nothing I'm able to do on my end and I recommend using one or the other.
There seems to be a crossmod conflict between your custom proficiency system and Artisans Fighter Overhaul from his kitpack;
Don't know, if there's something that can be done from your side about it. Just wanted to mention it anyway, in case someone wants to use both mods.
It can be circumvented by installing Artisans kit after your system, but I doubt that's a good idea either.
Known issue caused by the Fighter Overhaul outlined above. It will break either before or after Skills and Abilities and it is best to just not mix them together.
You have the one component installed which gives bards thieving skills and it's fairly in the middle of your setup. Maybe that is causing the problems? Just a wild guess. It's also the order that matters. I would suggest Skills&Abilities quite at the end, after EET_End, SCS and most other tweaks, just before NPC EE and Dual to kit. These three could be your last three mods. Is has propably something to do with SCS thieving point adjustment as well.
'Update Existing HLAs: This also updates the following HLAs so they CANNOT be removed by Breach or anti-magic spell: Hardiness, Resist Magic, Avoid Death, Evasion, Greater Evasion, and Assassination.'
Is it possible to make HLAs also impossible to be interrupted?
Klatu Tweaks only has these three:
Treat all Innate Abilities as Non-Magical (Unaffected by Wild/Dead Magic and Silence)
Treat all Psionic Abilities as Non-Magical (Unaffected by Wild/Dead Magic and Silence)
Treat all Bardsong Effects as Non-Magical (Unaffected by Wild/Dead Magic)
aTweaks has this component though: 'Instant casting for warrior innates' altough as the name of the component is only for warrior HLAs. I didn't know about this one since I never used this mod. I'll add it to my list.
Thank you for the reply.
a good mod. While I like the wizard slayer, I'm not sure he is strong enough, even with your changes, to warrant not choosing some other classes over him.
Barbarian, you get the resistance,
berserker, you got whole immunity status,
ranger you get the possibility to get all the cleric spells on the dual class if you allow it on the readme.
Wizard slayer? The chance to remove spells while fighting mages, a pitiful MR - and even if you get it, it is still dispellable via a simple lower magic, the inability to equip everything, the penalty on using potions.
The class is doomed.
Sadly enough, you haven't even added some HLA born specifically for them. The spells should also probably fizz if he is near.
Thanks for trying to improve the class, but for me it still misses the point.
Thinking about it a bit, you probably wish for the wizard slayer to be a ranged attacker. In that case I can see some merits, I guess.
Chance on hit to dispel a target (which bypasses PfMW and the like) is pretty powerful in game. People talk about Carsomyr being the best weapon in the game, and without my mods it can't bypass PfMW and the like that the WS can do, and the WS can do it with any weapon equipped. Item restrictions are only potions, rings, and amulets. Top it off, they have 100 skill points in Detect Illusions modal, so they have an infinite use to detect illusions that bypasses SI Div.
Still. Why would I choose him over an inquisitor? They are both "enablers". The inquisitor also has not only Carsomyr, but also the great dispel magic.
The dispel magic on the inquisitor is overpowered, but so it's the berserking status. What's the thing that pushes the wizard slayer so high that can convince someone to take him?
I'm not yet convinced. I will go as far as to say that a weapon intended to dispel magic as Carsomyr should probably be enabled on the wizard slayer. Maybe. I still wouldn't want it over FoA and Celestial fury/Blackrazor.
In addition to the benefits mentioned above: Fighter level progression which is faster than Inquisitor and the ability to get GM in weapons. Ability to choose other races than human or you can dual class to Cleric, Druid, or Thief (dispel on hit still progresses as it is based off the average level of the dual). Miscast Magic on hit will also bypass PfMW and the like, so even if the dispel doesn't trigger you will still be making it harder for enemy mages to cast.
I think WS is rather powerful with this mod. Not a class I normally use, but in the past I always enjoyed turning Valygar in original BG2 into one. Compared to vanilla WS I think the changes are good enough, especially since they can now use even more magical equipment.
Using the mod mainly for HLAs in IWDEE. Not a big fan of the LeUI IWDEE skin (less refined than the BG skins in my opinion) but whatever. I rather like the tweaks to existing HLAs, makes then much more viable (especially Resist Magic). The extra HLAs are nice too, even if I think some of them are rather lackluster (+1 THAC0 and +1 AC seem like a waste for HLAs slots). Wish you could update the list to include some more for non-martial classes. Or maybe some for specific classes/kits.
The changes to fighting styles are welcomed and are in my opinion less crazy than the ones in ToF (+3 AC with dual wielding WTH?). I don't use them since they run on a contingency timer and are easy to exploit, but I understand why they are done that way.
A few questions I have about the mod.
1.- HLAs in IWDEE don't seem to have any animation graphics when activated like in BG2EE. Is it because IWDEE lacks said graphical effects?
2. Some of the proficiency skills under the overhauled proficiency system (spellcraft, concentration, etc) seem to be available for all classes (Fighters can take spellcraft). Is that intended?
3. The 1.5x Strength bonus did not seem to be too consistent when I tried it. A warrior with a +5 to damage from Strength would only get +1 extra (he should get +2 even if rounded down) while a warrior with a +7 gets a proper +3 extra. I'm assuming this is an engine thing doing wrong calculations.
Some of the proficiency skills under the overhauled proficiency system (spellcraft, concentration, etc) seems to be available for all classes (Fighters can take spellcraft). Is that intended?
This is intended as I am playing around the limitations of the system. Spellcraft, Concentration, etc. allows characters to put a max of 1 pip in them to assist with dual classing. For example, if I take Fighter and they are not able to put any points in spellcraft and dual class to Mage. Once the dual completes and the Fighter class is unlocked, they would then be restricted from putting any points in Spellcraft. By allowing the class to put 1 point in the skill, now they can continue putting more points into the proficiency once the dual completes.
The 1.5x Strength bonus did not seem to be too consistent when I tried it. A warrior with a +5 to damage from Strength would only get +1 extra (he should get +2 even if rounded down) while a warrior with a +7 gets a proper +3 extra. I'm assuming this is an engine thing doing wrong calculations.
You're seeing it play around exceptional strength which I don't take account for as that gets even more complex in doing the math as I now have to check both STR and Exceptional strength values to do those calculations. S&A is just doing checks based off STR only.
I think WS is rather powerful with this mod. Not a class I normally use, but in the past I always enjoyed turning Valygar in original BG2 into one. Compared to vanilla WS I think the changes are good enough, especially since they can now use even more magical equipment..
That's exactly my problem with it. You have to go out of your way to use it, only to have a subpar inquisitor. Anyway, I tried to show my pov. Back to playing ranger cleric, I guess.
the ability to get GM in weapons
This becomes irrelevant as soon as you are high level. And even in that case is opinable, considering that people dual at level 9 because you can still hit everything in this game with subpar thaco.
even if the dispel doesn't trigger you will still be making it harder for enemy mages to cast.
the best wizard slayer remains, undoubtedly, another mage. Or an inquisitor.
This becomes irrelevant as soon as you are high level. And even in that case is opinable, considering that people dual at level 9 because you can still hit everything in this game with subpar thaco.
Oof, this is a genuine lack of understanding of the game mechanics. At no point does a +30 damage per round increase become irrelevant.
Again, I don't think you are grasping game mechanics and how things work at a technical level. Carsomyr doesn't work if an enemy has PfMW up while the Wizard Slayer will dispel on hit through it. Inquisitor Dispel Magic doesn't work if an enemy mage has SI: Abj up, but the Wizard Slayer will dispel on hit through it. Mages will need to cast their limited resources (Vancian casting system) to strip an enemy's spell and combat protections while the Wizard Slayer will dispel on hit through it. As long as they can attack, they have a dispel up their sleeves. Additionally, casters will typically not prioritize Miscast Magic when other spells are going to take precedence to strip a mage of their spell and combat protections. Wizard Slayer will apply that as part of their normal attack rotation.
This becomes irrelevant as soon as you are high level. And even in that case is opinable, considering that people dual at level 9 because you can still hit everything in this game with subpar thaco.
At no point does a +30 damage per round increase become irrelevant.
No. This number munchkin you refer to becomes pretty important if you play solo, but your other party members can help you too. Are you, as a wizard slayer, a force to be reckoned with, as if you were a berserker, a barbarian or a ranger/cleric? No.
Carsomyr doesn't work if an enemy has PfMW up while the Wizard Slayer will dispel on hit through it. Inquisitor Dispel Magic doesn't work if an enemy mage has SI: Abj up, but the Wizard Slayer will dispel on hit through it.
An inquisitor can take care of most mage battles, beside the exception you pointed to, that requires to either use a wizard slayer (which shines ONLY in this scenario, because one can do perfectly without on the other cases) or a mage, that one can use reliably for EVERY scenario as a multiplier of strength of the party.
Mages will need to cast their limited resources (Vancian casting system) to strip an enemy's spell and combat protections while the Wizard Slayer will dispel on hit through it. As long as they can attack, they have a dispel up their sleeves. Additionally, casters will typically not prioritize Miscast Magic when other spells are going to take precedence to strip a mage of their spell and combat protections. Wizard Slayer will apply that as part of their normal attack rotation.
Any party can rest after every encounter without any particular issue.
Anyway, no worries: I will not bother you anymore.
No. This number munchkin you refer to becomes pretty important if you play solo, but your other party members can help you too. Are you, as a wizard slayer, a force to be reckoned with, as if you were a berserker, a barbarian or a ranger/cleric? No.
The core point: Why is it irrelevant the later you get in the game? In bg1 you will make a char with 18 str, boost to 19 with tome, 21 after hell, and 22 after lum the mad (alternatively you can use the belt of fire giant str for the exact same thing). This, combined with the fact that the highest base AC in the game is -12, +3 or higher weaponry means you're sitting on a thac0 that is better than 99% of enemies AC, meaning you never miss outside of critical misses.
Base thac0 + grandmastery +3, +5 from your weapon, +4 (or more) from your strength, +X from equipment (balduran helm, etc) + 2 from berserking, + Y from additional buffs from party members +Z from debuffs = you landing every attack on anything that isn't demogorgan, the ravager, Amelyssan, a drow in full plate (Depending on your weapon of choice) or a dragon, if you consume/buff (which you should) you won't miss these either. Let's go over each game.
No. This number munchkin you refer to becomes pretty important if you play solo, but your other party members can help you too. Are you, as a wizard slayer, a force to be reckoned with, as if you were a berserker, a barbarian or a ranger/cleric? No.
What does this have to do with my mod or our discussion? I mentioned that GM was a benefit of a fighter over paladin for the increase in +30 damage per round but you seem to be solely focused on the thac0 benefit being useless. Agreed, the thac0 doesn't matter as much, so why are you spamming a thread about my mods to cover a point no one is trying to prove.
Comments
~BGGO\BGGO.TP2~ #0 #0 // ?????? -> : ???
~BUBB_REVERT_PATHFINDING\BUBB_REVERT_PATHFINDING.TP2~ #0 #0 // ?????? -> : ???
~EEEX\EEEX.TP2~ #0 #0 // EEex: v0.11.0-alpha
~INFINITY_UI\INFINITY_UI.TP2~ #0 #0 // Install Infinity UI++ Core Component: v1.15
~INFINITY_UI\INFINITY_UI.TP2~ #0 #1 // Add Transparent Tooltip Background: v1.15
~INFINITY_UI\INFINITY_UI.TP2~ #0 #2 // Update several strings in Dialog.tlk: v1.15
~INFINITY_UI\INFINITY_UI.TP2~ #0 #8 // Select Number of Quicksave Slots -> 6: v1.15
~SKILLS-AND-ABILITIES\SKILLS-AND-ABILITIES.TP2~ #0 #710 // Add New HLAs for ALL Classes and Kits: v4.1
~SKILLS-AND-ABILITIES\SKILLS-AND-ABILITIES.TP2~ #0 #720 // Update Existing HLAs: v4.1
~SKILLS-AND-ABILITIES\SKILLS-AND-ABILITIES.TP2~ #0 #750 // Add Concentration Check to Resist Spell Disruption: v4.1
~SKILLS-AND-ABILITIES\SKILLS-AND-ABILITIES.TP2~ #0 #300 // Update Weapon Fighting Styles: v4.1
~SKILLS-AND-ABILITIES\SKILLS-AND-ABILITIES.TP2~ #0 #313 // Overhaul Proficiency System - Add New Proficiencies and Weapon Styles -> NWN2 Style Proficiency Progression: v4.1
~SKILLS-AND-ABILITIES\SKILLS-AND-ABILITIES.TP2~ #0 #400 // 2H Weapon Additional Strength Bonus: v4.1
~HIDDENGAMEPLAYOPTIONS\HIDDENGAMEPLAYOPTIONS.TP2~ #0 #0 // Install all Hidden Gameplay Options at once: 5.0
~HIDDENGAMEPLAYOPTIONS\HIDDENGAMEPLAYOPTIONS.TP2~ #0 #200 // Improved Cheat Menu: 5.0
Even with that short list of mods, Kivan has total 9 pips...
BTW, could you tell me how this conversion works? Is it just trying to translate current pips of a NPC to the new system or maybe there are hardcoded new style pips for every NPC? The latter would mean that mod NPC would have totally crazy stuff there, right?
I love this system. AFAIK they introduced those small groups of weapons in BG2 to slower the progress and give more importance to pips, but you addressed it much better by just adding new proficiencies which could be useful for the other classes than warriors.
So what is going on?
EET pulls in BG1EE resources into BG2EE and then finalizes them in EET_END. Before EET_END runs, pdialog.2da is incomplete and doesn't reflect BG1 NPCs. I use this file to check for which NPCs to treat as recruitable NPCs. So basically in your install I am looking at pdialog.2da and it does not show Kivan and the other BG1 NPCs because you haven't installed EET_END yet. I know I can do checks against other files to compare against for BG1 NPCs, but overall, this mod should come after EET_END and those checks really shouldn't be occurring. Just install after EET_END and you'll have a good install.
Why do I treat recruitable NPCs differently than non-recruitable ones?
Recruitable NPCs I want to have the exact right amount of pips they are allotted, not more. Enemies on the other hand I really don't care if they have the correct amount and am prone to give them more profs than they may normally be allotted. This is because the base game may give an enemy pips in a weapon they don't even have. It would be silly to penalize that NPC and not give them something that may actually now be useful to them. So I just give enemies generally, a little bit extra but within reason for what would be appropriate for their class and level.
How do I do my checks for recruitable NPCs?
I cycle through all creatures and identify which ones are recruitable based off pdialog.2da. For these, I read in what pips they have assigned in each weapon type and determine if any weapon groups overlap (e.g., pips in Bastard Sword and Longsword). For overlap, I determine how much is now free to spend in other pips. I then check which ruleset is being used (e.g., normal, accelerated, NWN style pips) and then calculate based on the NPC class and level how many pips they have to distribute. In the case above, I would populate the new Large Sword prof with the the appropriate number of pips and then look at other prof categories that would be applicable with the extra number of pips that I have available. Is the character wearing plate armor? If so, I will put at least 1 pip into heavy armor. Is the character equipped with a bow? Then they can apply pips in the new archery prof. And I then look at class, etc. to determine what would be the most appropriate distribution that I would do as a player.
I don't think so and I've heard some reports components are not compatible between the two now. In the past I've taken extra steps to make sure our stuff works together, but Artisan seems determined to make our stuff not work. Nothing I'm able to do on my end and I recommend using one or the other.
Might test it anyway and see how it goes or if something breaks.
Cheers!
Don't know, if there's something that can be done from your side about it. Just wanted to mention it anyway, in case someone wants to use both mods.
It can be circumvented by installing Artisans kit after your system, but I doubt that's a good idea either.
But moving all the SkillsAndAbilities components to load after EET makes sense. I'll try that.
Thanks for the suggestions!
Is it possible to make HLAs also impossible to be interrupted?
Treat all Innate Abilities as Non-Magical (Unaffected by Wild/Dead Magic and Silence)
Treat all Psionic Abilities as Non-Magical (Unaffected by Wild/Dead Magic and Silence)
Treat all Bardsong Effects as Non-Magical (Unaffected by Wild/Dead Magic)
aTweaks has this component though: 'Instant casting for warrior innates' altough as the name of the component is only for warrior HLAs. I didn't know about this one since I never used this mod. I'll add it to my list.
Thank you for the reply.
Barbarian, you get the resistance,
berserker, you got whole immunity status,
ranger you get the possibility to get all the cleric spells on the dual class if you allow it on the readme.
Wizard slayer? The chance to remove spells while fighting mages, a pitiful MR - and even if you get it, it is still dispellable via a simple lower magic, the inability to equip everything, the penalty on using potions.
The class is doomed.
Sadly enough, you haven't even added some HLA born specifically for them. The spells should also probably fizz if he is near.
Thanks for trying to improve the class, but for me it still misses the point.
Thinking about it a bit, you probably wish for the wizard slayer to be a ranged attacker. In that case I can see some merits, I guess.
The dispel magic on the inquisitor is overpowered, but so it's the berserking status. What's the thing that pushes the wizard slayer so high that can convince someone to take him?
I'm not yet convinced. I will go as far as to say that a weapon intended to dispel magic as Carsomyr should probably be enabled on the wizard slayer. Maybe. I still wouldn't want it over FoA and Celestial fury/Blackrazor.
Using the mod mainly for HLAs in IWDEE. Not a big fan of the LeUI IWDEE skin (less refined than the BG skins in my opinion) but whatever. I rather like the tweaks to existing HLAs, makes then much more viable (especially Resist Magic). The extra HLAs are nice too, even if I think some of them are rather lackluster (+1 THAC0 and +1 AC seem like a waste for HLAs slots). Wish you could update the list to include some more for non-martial classes. Or maybe some for specific classes/kits.
The changes to fighting styles are welcomed and are in my opinion less crazy than the ones in ToF (+3 AC with dual wielding WTH?). I don't use them since they run on a contingency timer and are easy to exploit, but I understand why they are done that way.
A few questions I have about the mod.
1.- HLAs in IWDEE don't seem to have any animation graphics when activated like in BG2EE. Is it because IWDEE lacks said graphical effects?
2. Some of the proficiency skills under the overhauled proficiency system (spellcraft, concentration, etc) seem to be available for all classes (Fighters can take spellcraft). Is that intended?
3. The 1.5x Strength bonus did not seem to be too consistent when I tried it. A warrior with a +5 to damage from Strength would only get +1 extra (he should get +2 even if rounded down) while a warrior with a +7 gets a proper +3 extra. I'm assuming this is an engine thing doing wrong calculations.
This is intended as I am playing around the limitations of the system. Spellcraft, Concentration, etc. allows characters to put a max of 1 pip in them to assist with dual classing. For example, if I take Fighter and they are not able to put any points in spellcraft and dual class to Mage. Once the dual completes and the Fighter class is unlocked, they would then be restricted from putting any points in Spellcraft. By allowing the class to put 1 point in the skill, now they can continue putting more points into the proficiency once the dual completes.
You're seeing it play around exceptional strength which I don't take account for as that gets even more complex in doing the math as I now have to check both STR and Exceptional strength values to do those calculations. S&A is just doing checks based off STR only.
That's exactly my problem with it. You have to go out of your way to use it, only to have a subpar inquisitor. Anyway, I tried to show my pov. Back to playing ranger cleric, I guess.
This becomes irrelevant as soon as you are high level. And even in that case is opinable, considering that people dual at level 9 because you can still hit everything in this game with subpar thaco.
the best wizard slayer remains, undoubtedly, another mage. Or an inquisitor.
Again, I don't think you are grasping game mechanics and how things work at a technical level. Carsomyr doesn't work if an enemy has PfMW up while the Wizard Slayer will dispel on hit through it. Inquisitor Dispel Magic doesn't work if an enemy mage has SI: Abj up, but the Wizard Slayer will dispel on hit through it. Mages will need to cast their limited resources (Vancian casting system) to strip an enemy's spell and combat protections while the Wizard Slayer will dispel on hit through it. As long as they can attack, they have a dispel up their sleeves. Additionally, casters will typically not prioritize Miscast Magic when other spells are going to take precedence to strip a mage of their spell and combat protections. Wizard Slayer will apply that as part of their normal attack rotation.
An inquisitor can take care of most mage battles, beside the exception you pointed to, that requires to either use a wizard slayer (which shines ONLY in this scenario, because one can do perfectly without on the other cases) or a mage, that one can use reliably for EVERY scenario as a multiplier of strength of the party.
Any party can rest after every encounter without any particular issue.
Anyway, no worries: I will not bother you anymore.
The core point: Why is it irrelevant the later you get in the game? In bg1 you will make a char with 18 str, boost to 19 with tome, 21 after hell, and 22 after lum the mad (alternatively you can use the belt of fire giant str for the exact same thing). This, combined with the fact that the highest base AC in the game is -12, +3 or higher weaponry means you're sitting on a thac0 that is better than 99% of enemies AC, meaning you never miss outside of critical misses.
Base thac0 + grandmastery +3, +5 from your weapon, +4 (or more) from your strength, +X from equipment (balduran helm, etc) + 2 from berserking, + Y from additional buffs from party members +Z from debuffs = you landing every attack on anything that isn't demogorgan, the ravager, Amelyssan, a drow in full plate (Depending on your weapon of choice) or a dragon, if you consume/buff (which you should) you won't miss these either. Let's go over each game.
What does this have to do with my mod or our discussion? I mentioned that GM was a benefit of a fighter over paladin for the increase in +30 damage per round but you seem to be solely focused on the thac0 benefit being useless. Agreed, the thac0 doesn't matter as much, so why are you spamming a thread about my mods to cover a point no one is trying to prove.