It's kind of funny that people seemed to have no problem bashing and blaming Atari to death when the situation was first announced, despite an almost complete lack of information, but as soon as there's a rumour that reflects badly on Beamdog, it's all 'hey, let's not pass judgement before we have all the facts'.
Edit: for the record, I completely agree that this news should be taken with huge grain of salt
@Dafojk - Then you might as well be speculating on which Kardashian is going to get pregnant next. Because we have more facts about that subject than we do about this.
As for Beamdog making a statement, about what? A third hand and incomplete at best speculation from an anonymous source?
@Dafojk - Then you might as well be speculating on which Kardashian is going to get pregnant next. Because we have more facts about that subject than we do about this.
As for Beamdog making a statement, about what? A third hand and incomplete at best speculation from an anonymous source?
Yes, I think they should. Best case senario together with Atari putting these rumors to rest. Gamebanshee isen't an unreliable source for information an so, more mainstream sites lige IGN could pick up the story - further feeding the rumormill.
It's kind of funny that people seemed to have no problem bashing and blaming Atari to death when the situation was first announced, despite an almost complete lack of information, but as soon as there's a rumour that reflects badly on Beamdog, it's all 'hey, let's not pass judgement before we have all the facts'.
It is kind of true, I am ashamed to admit. However I think that Atari earned that type of reputation long ago (and kept on earning it long after they needed to do so). Beamdog might be at fault. Who knows? But given the total lack of any kind of facts, I prefer to say let's wait and see what develops. If they end up on the wrong end? Then we will know.
@Dafojk - if every company spent time addressing every single speculative comment made in the popular media about themselves, they would spend a whole lot more money just answering if aliens in flying saucers were abducting babies in the area than they would developing games.
I personally don't want to see the overhead inflate the cost of games as a result.
@TJ_Hooker I think it's fair to say there is a natural bias towards Beamdog and co. here. It is their forums for their game. So it's basically their home ground in a way.
@TJ_Hooker I think it's fair to say there is a natural bias towards Beamdog and co. here. It is their forums for their game. So it's basically their home ground in a way.
Oh, yeah, I definitely understand. I've almost certainly exhibited a pro-Beamdog bias myself a few times in the past. But although it may be a natural result of where we are, I don't think bias and partisanship are something we should just accept as being part of these forums (and this is definitely not the first situation where it has cropped up). And I honestly think that a lot of the time it's simply an issue of people not realizing that they're doing it (I know I never did, at least not until after the fact), hence my pointing it out.
overthrow verb 1 remove forcibly from power 2 put an end to (something), typically by the use of force or violence
I stand by what I said. What you guys are talking about is not through the use of violent force ... The denotation, that is, dictionary definition, of overthrow directly says force.
I realize I'm nit-picking here but, I was trying to make a funny joke and then everyone decided that I was being completely literal for some reason. I can play that game, too.
It is entirely possible for an entity (individual, company, government, etc.) to trade on their good reputation. I can't think of anything Beamdog or the Devs here have done to garner any ill will. You can bitch and moan about bugs and things but they've been working steadily and diligently on fixing them and getting everything as advertised.
Atari, on the other hand, has been around a long time and has not generally garnered the same goodwill among their customers.
I can't say that I find it surprising Beamdog has support here among people who like them.
overthrow verb 1 remove forcibly from power 2 put an end to (something), typically by the use of force or violence
I stand by what I said. What you guys are talking about is not through the use of violent force ... The denotation, that is, dictionary definition, of overthrow directly says force.
I realize I'm nit-picking here but, I was trying to make a funny joke and then everyone decided that I was being completely literal for some reason. I can play that game, too.
We tried asking England nicely for representation in Parliament, and they said no. So we had a little thing called the American Revolutionary War. It was kind of a big deal.
We tried asking England nicely for representation in Parliament, and they said no. So we had a little thing called the American Revolutionary War. It was kind of a big deal.
Can we really trust gamebanshee? I mean its been what? 7 months since the game came out and they still haven't updated the map on the BGEE section of their walkthrough.
I wrote the BG:EE walkthrough at the time of release. I put dozens upon dozens of hours into the guide, just covering the new content. I was thoroughly disappointed by the game, so my desire to go back to it and add any remaining things I missed over the first time around is very low. Furthermore I have very little time these days to spend writing walkthroughs thanks to the demands of Real Life (TM).
You might also want to note that GameBanshee is run pretty much entirely by volunteers; it's not a site that makes any substantial amount of money. While we do our best, it's not a full day job and we don't have infinite time in the world to devote to perfecting every last little thing on the site. Of course, you're welcome to invest the hundreds of hours of meticulous work it takes to produce a walkthrough for little to no pay.
For what it's worth: I don't have access to this source, I don't know who he or she is, and I don't even know the exact statement given to us. However the supposition that the information is not reliable, accurate or even deceptive as part of some sort of conspiracy against Overhaul Games and/or Atari is patently ludicrous.
Like all such tips the information was provided to us by a source under condition of anonymity; it is fully listed as unconfirmed and nowhere in the news post is it in any way said to be truthful, reliable or to give the full picture into the situation. There's no spin put on the info and as far as I know it's presented as it was received by us. GameBanshee or its writers are not liable for any misinterpretations, whether deliberate or not.
Basic contract law principles require parties to a contract to act in good faith. This requirement makes each party responsible for more than just fulfilling the terms of the agreement. One party can't do anything that prevents the other party from receiving the full benefit of the contract.
For example, you can't sign an agreement with a neighborhood organization to allow kids to use the pool in your building, and then turn off the water so they can't use it in the way that was intended.
Due to the fact we don't know what the contract between Beamdog and Atari provides we can't understand which one of these two parties doesn't act in good faith.
Generally in a contractual relationship between two parties there is no duty to disclose anything to the other side. Mere silence does not constitute misrepresentation. However, once a representation is made, as typically happens in the context of negotiations, it must be accurate.
Merely ensuring the accuracy of statements is not enough, however. Any statement made must also be comprehensive. The Supreme Court in National Bank of Canada v. Soucisse held that once a party to a contract has disclosed some information, it has a duty to disclose all of that information, completely, because "partial information is misleading information."
So, if there ever was a chance to hear an official information from Beamdog before the dispute was over, after this article from the unknown source it becomes unreasonable now for Beamdog to release any statement while the negotiations are still ongoing.
@TJ_Hooker I think it's fair to say there is a natural bias towards Beamdog and co. here. It is their forums for their game. So it's basically their home ground in a way.
Oh, yeah, I definitely understand. I've almost certainly exhibited a pro-Beamdog bias myself a few times in the past. But although it may be a natural result of where we are, I don't think bias and partisanship are something we should just accept as being part of these forums (and this is definitely not the first situation where it has cropped up). And I honestly think that a lot of the time it's simply an issue of people not realizing that they're doing it (I know I never did, at least not until after the fact), hence my pointing it out.
It went through my mind yesterday evening, when I wrote my previous post, I've given Beamdog huge amount of credit. With all the suspense building up as to what was happening with that strange site baldursgate.com, one-and-a-half-years ago, the dedication they showed up to release and after that and the joy the game was relived. And the frankness with which they communicate, even though communication is often too sparse and done via twitter instead of the forum.
Yet still there's a lot been going wrong: too early a release, the game not living up to expectations as old npc's couldn't be augmented, the art that proved to be lost, thus no better backgrounds, the failure to work properly on Intel. And almost a year after previous release we're still waiting for a crucial patch, that's suspended now, the wait is still for mods like NPC1 project, as the game proved to be (for me) too boring and too easy (I need my fix of SCS and Hard Times as well for this game).
I guess the greatest credit I'm giving comes from reviving Baldur's Gate - and all the enthusiasm it created, look at the activity on this forum, even though it meant BG at social.bioware.com bled to death -. But if I look critically at myself, I sometimes wonder if I'm too much of a 'fanboy' and lost my critical sense. And because of all that not went as hoped, I'm still playing Tutu, while waiting for patches and waiting for the full complement of mods getting updated.
It is entirely possible for an entity (individual, company, government, etc.) to trade on their good reputation. I can't think of anything Beamdog or the Devs here have done to garner any ill will. You can bitch and moan about bugs and things but they've been working steadily and diligently on fixing them and getting everything as advertised.
Atari, on the other hand, has been around a long time and has not generally garnered the same goodwill among their customers.
I can't say that I find it surprising Beamdog has support here among people who like them.
True, most of what I wrote about my grievances (the early release, loss of original art, mute original npc's, even Intel being badly supported) happened either due to constraints put on them by third parties (too early release, mute npc's), bad luck (loss of art), or lack of will by third parties (Microsoft not supporting OpenGL enough on their Intel videochips). The dedication by the Beamdog team always showed. Though I wonder if they are skilled enough in legal wranglings. Or maybe they are not powerful enough to wrangle, some limitations (on npc's, on early release and now worse suspense on sales) are very severe. Couldn't they have gotten a better legal deal than this mess?
@EntropyXII We had a rough time of it for awhile but eventually our countries reconciled. Interesting note: The sun still never sets on the British Empire. But only just barely. http://what-if.xkcd.com/48/
Yet still there's a lot been going wrong: too early a release, the game not living up to expectations as old npc's couldn't be augmented, the art that proved to be lost, thus no better backgrounds, the failure to work properly on Intel. And almost a year after previous release we're still waiting for a crucial patch, that's suspended now, the wait is still for mods like NPC1 project, as the game proved to be (for me) too boring and too easy (I need my fix of SCS and Hard Times as well for this game).
Too early a release: debatable, but with the exception of Intel compatibility, most of the major bugs were fixed within weeks of release.
The game not living up to expectations: limitations to changes and the status to the lost artwork were made known publicly prior to release, and if I'm not mistaken, prior to the game pre-sales. I don't know what the team could have done to manage expectations better.
"Almost a year after previous release" - last patch was in February, 5 months ago. This update includes major engine enhancements, which take longer to implement and debug.
Mods: I guess we can take some of the blame for the NPC project (since we stole @Kaeloree and put him to work on BG2EE) . SCS is available, but as for that and other mods...it is up to the mod authors.
My understanding is that the Devs are not BeamDog - BeamDog is the publisher. If that is true (as far as the accusation is concerned), the Devs are essentially victims of whatever. I worry about the patch being a bargaining chip, but it makes sense to me, as it's the only collateral that the Devs seem to have. Anyway, hoping for a positive outcome.
From what I've read from the devs, Overhaul and Beamdog have common owners.
Oh, and on this:
Overhaul Games is the game development division of Beamdog. So from a business sense, Beamdog is a game digital distribution company, a direct competitor to the likes of Steam and GOG. Overhaul games does game development.
That being said, business/tax/legal differences aside, the two companies are one and the same. Same office, same management. The BGEE and BG2EE teams are a superset of the Beamdog permanent staff.
And on a lighter note - while most of the team are not privy to *exactly* what is going on, I imagine it is going a bit like this (NSFW language, 1:08)
@CaptRory - -chuckles- that made me laugh. Personally I think we only keep all those tiny islands so we can still say "The sun never sets on the British Empire."
My girlfriend is American (living here in the UK with me) and I must admit the banter is brilliant come July 4th. She got annoyed because nobody would go out drinking midweek with her.
I also don't think she was too impressed when I got her a little cake saying "You little rebel" on it.... xD
And that in no way represents the inner workings of the company or companies in question, just how I perceive them. IdeaSpark Labs Inc. owns Beamdog (a division (project/subsidiary) of IdeaSpark Labs Inc.) who, in turn, owns Overhaul Games (a division of Beamdog). Both projects/divisions, however, are owned by IdeaSpark Labs Inc.; Trent and Co.
Beamdog is the distributor and Overhaul is the developer. The distributor will arrange projects, market them, and distribute them once complete. The developer will develop. Even if it happens to be the same group of people in both divisions.
But your version was much more concise .
Anyway, hope the news is not as negative as it sounds. If there are royalties owed, then it might [speculation] be similar to Sega suing THQ. It still sounds like it has something to do with Atari's bankruptcy. Royalties can be finicky things when some unforeseen event, such as bankruptcy, comes along. Whatever the case, I'm still hoping it can be resolved so that work can continue on the game.
@sea - thanks for chiming in. The comments about the work you did on the walk-throughs were very insightful in my mind. I don't think that people appreciate the amount of 'Free' work that goes into that type of endeavor and you deserve recognition.
I do have to say that the comment 'As it appears' in the article is not complete. Nor does it reflect enough information in order to draw any type of legitimate conclusion what so ever. I am not saying that it is "Intentionally deceptive" with intent to make one company or another look bad, but just the statement alone is clearly incomplete. In that it "IS" deceptive clearly as can be seen from this thread. People are piling on both sides of the fence attacking one party or the other.
I said it before, I don't know who (if anyone) is at fault for the legal problems. But to simply say:
Apparently Beamdog hasn't paid Atari the royalties that they were owed, which led the publisher to ask them to pull the title from their services, and delay both Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition's patch and the release of the sequel's remastering.</>
Simply doesn't reflect enough information to draw any type of accurate conclusion, yet clearly makes Beamdog look bad. Yet it then goes on to say "Unofficial" and "Unnamed source" as if to say "But we don't know for sure".
Take the line "Beamdog hasn't paid Atari the royalties that they were owed."
According to whom? Atari or both parties? Or possibly some third unnamed party? Do we know if those royalties are legit in form, content or amount? Do we know if one party isn't merely claiming X amount while the other is claiming Y amount? Do we know for a fact that Beamdog hasn't made good faith effort to make good on those royalties? Are they being withheld in an attempt to get Atari to make good on other commitments that they have failed to uphold on their end? We don't know. And without these facts, we can't draw any legitimate or accurate conclusions. And therefore the statement is miss-leading and deceptive.
The legal system exists, and rightfully so, such that when parties in good faith fail to reach amicable agreements, they have a third neutral party in which to bring their grievances. GameBanshee has acted as judge and jury in this matter to make the dispute in such a light as to cause the public to pass judgement against Beamdog, or at least sway them to that end. Only they aren't providing the full facts, nor do they apparently HAVE all of the facts (according to the article). Nor are they in the position TO pass judgement on either party. That is the responsibility of the courts, not the popular media. Intentionally or not it is irresponsible journalism.
To be clear, I personally don't know who is at fault (or if anyone is). The statement in the article doesn't provide enough information to draw that conclusion. I am not saying Atari is to blame. I am not saying Beamdog is to blame or is blameless. Merely NOT ENOUGH INFORMATION is available at this time.
@ReadingRambo - Because Overhaul might be worried about being paid, or BeamDog being paid. Their work (patches, etc) is bargaining leverage and has value as such. Just hold on. I believe that one of two things will happen:
1) It sorts out transparently and we go bact to our regularly scheduled program
2) It falls apart. In this case, don't be surprised if the patch makes it out after the dust clears.
For what it's worth: I don't have access to this source, I don't know who he or she is, and I don't even know the exact statement given to us. However the supposition that the information is not reliable, accurate or even deceptive as part of some sort of conspiracy against Overhaul Games and/or Atari is patently ludicrous.
So we have an unnamed, unsourced rumour on a singular gaming website about a legal dispute which we literally know nothing about, which has been picked up by no other news sites, and neither beamdog nor Atari have made any substantial comments on the situation, and even the tile of the article states "Uncofirmed" but you say that supposing the "information" is not reliable is ludicrous?
So we have an unnamed, unsourced rumour on a singular gaming website about a legal dispute which we literally know nothing about, which has been picked up by no other news sites, and neither beamdog nor Atari have made any substantial comments on the situation, and even the tile of the article states "Uncofirmed" but you say that supposing the "information" is not reliable is ludicrous?
I believe a salt is the order of the day. Lots of it.
So we have an unnamed, unsourced rumour on a singular gaming website about a legal dispute which we literally know nothing about, which has been picked up by no other news sites,
and neither beamdog nor Atari have made any substantial comments on the situation, and even the tile of the article states "Uncofirmed" but you say that supposing the "information" is not reliable is ludicrous?
How many news sites and stories around the world use unamed anonyomous sources for their stories? And companies/governments have declined to comment on such stories?
Comments
Edit: for the record, I completely agree that this news should be taken with huge grain of salt
Then you might as well be speculating on which Kardashian is going to get pregnant next. Because we have more facts about that subject than we do about this.
As for Beamdog making a statement, about what? A third hand and incomplete at best speculation from an anonymous source?
I personally don't want to see the overhead inflate the cost of games as a result.
overthrow
verb
1 remove forcibly from power
2 put an end to (something), typically by the use of force or violence
I stand by what I said. What you guys are talking about is not through the use of violent force ... The denotation, that is, dictionary definition, of overthrow directly says force.
I realize I'm nit-picking here but, I was trying to make a funny joke and then everyone decided that I was being completely literal for some reason. I can play that game, too.
Atari, on the other hand, has been around a long time and has not generally garnered the same goodwill among their customers.
I can't say that I find it surprising Beamdog has support here among people who like them.
[ All in good fun
You might also want to note that GameBanshee is run pretty much entirely by volunteers; it's not a site that makes any substantial amount of money. While we do our best, it's not a full day job and we don't have infinite time in the world to devote to perfecting every last little thing on the site. Of course, you're welcome to invest the hundreds of hours of meticulous work it takes to produce a walkthrough for little to no pay.
For what it's worth: I don't have access to this source, I don't know who he or she is, and I don't even know the exact statement given to us. However the supposition that the information is not reliable, accurate or even deceptive as part of some sort of conspiracy against Overhaul Games and/or Atari is patently ludicrous.
Like all such tips the information was provided to us by a source under condition of anonymity; it is fully listed as unconfirmed and nowhere in the news post is it in any way said to be truthful, reliable or to give the full picture into the situation. There's no spin put on the info and as far as I know it's presented as it was received by us. GameBanshee or its writers are not liable for any misinterpretations, whether deliberate or not.
For example, you can't sign an agreement with a neighborhood organization to allow kids to use the pool in your building, and then turn off the water so they can't use it in the way that was intended.
Due to the fact we don't know what the contract between Beamdog and Atari provides we can't understand which one of these two parties doesn't act in good faith.
Generally in a contractual relationship between two parties there is no duty to disclose anything to the other side. Mere silence does not constitute misrepresentation. However, once a representation is made, as typically happens in the context of negotiations, it must be accurate.
Merely ensuring the accuracy of statements is not enough, however. Any statement made must also be comprehensive. The Supreme Court in National Bank of Canada v. Soucisse held that once a party to a contract has disclosed some information, it has a duty to disclose all of that information, completely, because "partial information is misleading information."
So, if there ever was a chance to hear an official information from Beamdog before the dispute was over, after this article from the unknown source it becomes unreasonable now for Beamdog to release any statement while the negotiations are still ongoing.
Yet still there's a lot been going wrong: too early a release, the game not living up to expectations as old npc's couldn't be augmented, the art that proved to be lost, thus no better backgrounds, the failure to work properly on Intel. And almost a year after previous release we're still waiting for a crucial patch, that's suspended now, the wait is still for mods like NPC1 project, as the game proved to be (for me) too boring and too easy (I need my fix of SCS and Hard Times as well for this game).
I guess the greatest credit I'm giving comes from reviving Baldur's Gate - and all the enthusiasm it created, look at the activity on this forum, even though it meant BG at social.bioware.com bled to death -. But if I look critically at myself, I sometimes wonder if I'm too much of a 'fanboy' and lost my critical sense. And because of all that not went as hoped, I'm still playing Tutu, while waiting for patches and waiting for the full complement of mods getting updated.
The game not living up to expectations: limitations to changes and the status to the lost artwork were made known publicly prior to release, and if I'm not mistaken, prior to the game pre-sales. I don't know what the team could have done to manage expectations better.
"Almost a year after previous release" - last patch was in February, 5 months ago. This update includes major engine enhancements, which take longer to implement and debug.
Mods: I guess we can take some of the blame for the NPC project (since we stole @Kaeloree and put him to work on BG2EE) . SCS is available, but as for that and other mods...it is up to the mod authors.
Overhaul Games is the game development division of Beamdog. So from a business sense, Beamdog is a game digital distribution company, a direct competitor to the likes of Steam and GOG. Overhaul games does game development.
That being said, business/tax/legal differences aside, the two companies are one and the same. Same office, same management. The BGEE and BG2EE teams are a superset of the Beamdog permanent staff.
My girlfriend is American (living here in the UK with me) and I must admit the banter is brilliant come July 4th. She got annoyed because nobody would go out drinking midweek with her.
I also don't think she was too impressed when I got her a little cake saying "You little rebel" on it.... xD
So, basically:
_________________________
| |
| IdeaSpark Labs Inc. |
|_________________________|
|
<------------<------------<|--------------------------|
| |
_______V_______ _______|_______
| Beamdog | | Overhaul Games|
|Team, Employees|>------------------>----------------->|Team, Employees|
| *** | | *** |
| Distribution |<------------------<-----------------<| Developer |
|_______________|| Product, patches and updates ||_______________|
| |____________________________________| ^
| |
_______V_______ _______________________________ |
| (You) | | | |
| Customer |-->| Feedback |>--->--->-|
|_______________| |_______________________________|
And that in no way represents the inner workings of the company or companies in question, just how I perceive them. IdeaSpark Labs Inc. owns Beamdog (a division (project/subsidiary) of IdeaSpark Labs Inc.) who, in turn, owns Overhaul Games (a division of Beamdog). Both projects/divisions, however, are owned by IdeaSpark Labs Inc.; Trent and Co.
Beamdog is the distributor and Overhaul is the developer. The distributor will arrange projects, market them, and distribute them once complete. The developer will develop. Even if it happens to be the same group of people in both divisions.
But your version was much more concise
Anyway, hope the news is not as negative as it sounds. If there are royalties owed, then it might [speculation] be similar to Sega suing THQ. It still sounds like it has something to do with Atari's bankruptcy. Royalties can be finicky things when some unforeseen event, such as bankruptcy, comes along. Whatever the case, I'm still hoping it can be resolved so that work can continue on the game.
I do have to say that the comment 'As it appears' in the article is not complete. Nor does it reflect enough information in order to draw any type of legitimate conclusion what so ever. I am not saying that it is "Intentionally deceptive" with intent to make one company or another look bad, but just the statement alone is clearly incomplete. In that it "IS" deceptive clearly as can be seen from this thread. People are piling on both sides of the fence attacking one party or the other.
I said it before, I don't know who (if anyone) is at fault for the legal problems. But to simply say: Simply doesn't reflect enough information to draw any type of accurate conclusion, yet clearly makes Beamdog look bad. Yet it then goes on to say "Unofficial" and "Unnamed source" as if to say "But we don't know for sure".
Take the line "Beamdog hasn't paid Atari the royalties that they were owed."
According to whom? Atari or both parties? Or possibly some third unnamed party? Do we know if those royalties are legit in form, content or amount? Do we know if one party isn't merely claiming X amount while the other is claiming Y amount? Do we know for a fact that Beamdog hasn't made good faith effort to make good on those royalties? Are they being withheld in an attempt to get Atari to make good on other commitments that they have failed to uphold on their end? We don't know. And without these facts, we can't draw any legitimate or accurate conclusions. And therefore the statement is miss-leading and deceptive.
The legal system exists, and rightfully so, such that when parties in good faith fail to reach amicable agreements, they have a third neutral party in which to bring their grievances. GameBanshee has acted as judge and jury in this matter to make the dispute in such a light as to cause the public to pass judgement against Beamdog, or at least sway them to that end. Only they aren't providing the full facts, nor do they apparently HAVE all of the facts (according to the article). Nor are they in the position TO pass judgement on either party. That is the responsibility of the courts, not the popular media. Intentionally or not it is irresponsible journalism.
To be clear, I personally don't know who is at fault (or if anyone is). The statement in the article doesn't provide enough information to draw that conclusion. I am not saying Atari is to blame. I am not saying Beamdog is to blame or is blameless. Merely NOT ENOUGH INFORMATION is available at this time.
1) It sorts out transparently and we go bact to our regularly scheduled program
2) It falls apart. In this case, don't be surprised if the patch makes it out after the dust clears.