@Kamuizin I agree with what you're saying. I'd like to think the questions had enough baggage from the earlier thread to not be taken at face value. Some of the opinions given in this thread have swayed me away from my original pro-drow leaning.
edit - I stand by the yes or no, simplicity though!
@Thels I was thinking "Middle Underdark", but you are right. I suppose they do count as a race that inhabits at least a part of the underdark, whereas the Drow almost always are found only in the Underdark and inhabit it, 99% of the time. (Incidentally, I found another Drow on the surface- the portmaster of the Living City (Raven's Bluff) in 2e had a canon Drow elf ward living with him. Albeit the elf was found as a very young child and also not evil. However, said kid went covered/cloaked all the time. And I don't remember his or her name. Sorry.
I myself continue to believe that, considering the limitation involved, the devs won't be able to make a true implementation of the drow race - though exclusive content is justifiable for every race choice, a drow is almost required to face some exclusive hardship, perhaps even beyond what Viconia currently suffers.
However, if drows ARE implemented, then AT LEAST the (admitedly few) things that happen to you because of Viconia should be obligatory, as well as the people who persecute her (such as those Flaming Fist) should also try and kill you as well. Otherwise, a drow PC would be poor and cheaply implemented in a way that was best left for mods.
Though I just remembered that half-orcs are also a choice... heh... would any Faerun nerd care to enlighten me on what exactly the image of a green-skinned half-breed implies for you?
Well, he wouldn't have to be good. He would probably have to hide his true nature if he were evil. Likewise, I don't think an evil CHARNAME of any race would be tolerated in Candlekeep if he was blatantly obvious with his evil.
I would absolutely love the idea of playing a Drow. In my opinion, they're the most interesting race, bar-none, and could also make for the most interesting story. I've always been a fan of the hero who overcomes his heritage or his history to become a legend, and a Drow Bhaalspawn PC would be the perfect example of that. Overcoming both the blood of Bhaal AND your race to become a champion of good? Now that makes for an interesting character. Or, you could of course have him embrace his inherent evil and carve a swath of destruction across the realms, but that's up to you. It should be easy to implement too, that -10 reputation points at character creation solves the problem of not being accepted, and I think I'd like to use my imagination to see the look on the storekeeps face when a Drow Swashbuckler with duel shortswords comes in to browse his wears, so that at least helps the issue of PC integration. My only issue is that Jaheira (my personal favorite LI) might have a wee bit of a problem with a Drow would-be lover, although she doesn't have a notable problem with Viconia. If it's not implemented in BGEE, I hope it's used in BGIII. I would buy it without a second thought.
@Tanthalas well of course it wouldn't be well liked among the monks and scholars that are there. I also absolutely agree that if you're there, going evil and nuts all over the place will get you killed. But a drow would no doubt be under much more scrutiny more than any other race.
I don't mean to shoot you down or start an arguement, it's just that you seem to be comparing drow to other races as if they're seen equally, and even in candlekeep, they just aren't. Drow are widely regarded as pure evil, other races aren't.
I guess we're both just seeing what we want to see.
I want to prove that being Drow isn't a problem, so I see characters like Drizzt and Viconia surviving and I see a Drow being brought up since a baby in Candlekeep allowing him to blend in with the people there.
@Zacalicious4 -10 rep at the start of the game will kill you instantly, this would make you start the game with 1,2 or 3 rep. Only a lawful good character would have 3 rep and would survive a little, cos because game engines 2 or 1 rep make the guards attack you. The enemy level isn't leveled based on your level, what would make you dead pretty quickly. In fact only at lvl 4 or 5 with at least 3 companions you have a change to survive guards based on low rep requeriments.
It's not a plot problem, it's a script problem. has nothing to do with the want or not want drow but it's a point to consider if someone want to make the implementation with -10 rep penality.
My only issue is that Jaheira (my personal favorite LI) might have a wee bit of a problem with a Drow would-be lover, although she doesn't have a notable problem with Viconia.
In BG:SoA Jaheira to Viconia: Drow, you will know when I address you when I spit in your direction.
That seems to be a notable problem with Viconia to me.
I am against it as I think Drow are only really accepted in the Icewind Dale area do to Drizzt Do'urden. They are quite vile and evil and BG doesn't really support their style of evil. They would exploit the war and make profits even if they weren't trying to participate, nothing in Baldur's Gate even allows you to really profit off the whole disaster.
Agreed! One of my favourite quotes of all time is "The exception does not redefine the rule."
Drizzt may be good, but he is a cultural anomaly, as the rest of his kind are some of the most sinister and evil creatures in the history of fantasy. I am against the implementation of Drow as a playable race. However, if they were to be added, an evil alignment choice should be *mandatory*, thus ensuring the player is not picking them simply to "look cool."
I am against it as I think Drow are only really accepted in the Icewind Dale area do to Drizzt Do'urden. They are quite vile and evil and BG doesn't really support their style of evil. They would exploit the war and make profits even if they weren't trying to participate, nothing in Baldur's Gate even allows you to really profit off the whole disaster.
Agreed! One of my favourite quotes of all time is "The exception does not redefine the rule."
Drizzt may be good, but he is a cultural anomaly, as the rest of his kind are some of the most sinister and evil creatures in the history of fantasy. I am against the implementation of Drow as a playable race. However, if they were to be added, an evil alignment choice should be *mandatory*, thus ensuring the player is not picking them simply to "look cool."
Why would a drow raised by humans have to be evil?
In BG:SoA Jaheira to Viconia: Drow, you will know when I address you when I spit in your direction.
That seems to be a notable problem with Viconia to me.
@Jolanthus - I guess when I say "notable problem", I mean she doesn't try to kill her in a fight to the death over differing viewpoints. Besides, Viconia IS actually evil, and Jaheira (like most good companions) has at least some verbal sparring with all evil companions. I'm sure if you played an evil Drow, all the good companions, including possible love interests, would hate you. But if you played a good character, they would at least give you a chance (hopefully).
@kamuizin - Well then we make the reputation drop just low enough that the city guards don't attack you on sight until you PROVE you are evil.
Drow are an evil race, delighting in heathen rituals and wanton slaughter; so the surface people say. If the protagonist were a drow he/she would be rejected by the general populace and perpetually subject to their violent prejudices. To some people this interesting dynamic would appeal to their sense of roleplaying, others may not agree.
I personally would not like drow included in the game (for lore reasons), but if they were, it stands to reason that they should suffer from a large reputation hit, and possibly a reputation cap to represent their inability to rid themselves of society's preconceptions.
I'm kinda really getting bored to point it out... but Drizzt Do'Urden at that time was not the only exception to his race (4th edition and Lady Penitent Trilogy changed that a lot but that came later) http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eilistraee
I'm kinda really getting bored to point it out... but Drizzt Do'Urden at that time was not the only exception to his race (4th edition and Lady penitent Trilogy changed that a lot but that came later) http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eilistraee
The only one written about, doesn't mean that he was the only one.
@Zacalicious4, rep drop isn't the solution, overhaul the game scripts is, change and make additions for the plot is what a drow implement need to work, everything but this is just crap, do you really want only a drow button on the race menu, that make your elf black and give lame bonus for your character? Many mods will make cheese overpowered characters, and you can change the skin color of your elf, you know...
It's funny this thread cos as i said before i want a playable drow, not a bullshit that only exist cos it's wrote drow on my character screen. A playable drow is a pack of problems and challenges, if that can't be done don't do it at all.
Rep penality is a palliative for a huge problem, it don't even scrach the surface of the problem. Besides, i just can't understand why modders can't satisfy the drow need here. They're not binded by Atari copyright assignment with Beamdog, so... Anyone care to explain?
To basically recap what @kamuizin says, I totally agree with him, because if I was playing Drow, I'd want to feel like I am. To those who say just add in the button, will it really feel like you're drow? The entire game, the social quirks, the party members, the incentives, the quests; everything would need some type of overhaul to make you feel like you're playing a drow. If you jsut waltz out of candlekeep and you simply LOOK like drow with bonuses, but nothing happens in the world around you, then it's guarenteed that those who know what drow means, will feel the bullcrap eminating from the screen.
if the people wants a playable drow give them a playable drow, its not like you have to pick it... if you hate it more than the cyric himself, you can just completly ignore it. i really dont see why not.
Rep penality is a palliative for a huge problem, it don't even scrach the surface of the problem. Besides, i just can't understand why modders can't satisfy the drow need here. They're not binded by Atari copyright assignment with Beamdog, so... Anyone care to explain?
Personally, I prefer not to expect modders to give us everything, and besides, there are advantages with having subraces directly added to the game.
Having all the IWD2 subraces in BGEE is something that I really hope they eventually add.
To basically recap what @kamuizin says, I totally agree with him, because if I was playing Drow, I'd want to feel like I am. To those who say just add in the button, will it really feel like you're drow? The entire game, the social quirks, the party members, the incentives, the quests; everything would need some type of overhaul to make you feel like you're playing a drow. If you jsut waltz out of candlekeep and you simply LOOK like drow with bonuses, but nothing happens in the world around you, then it's guarenteed that those who know what drow means, will feel the bullcrap eminating from the screen.
I guess no more no less than in NeverWinter Night 2
@Talvrae and did you really like that? cos i make an aasimar there and not even a fucking single moment the game recognize my race there. I really feel cheated with that. The only thing NWN2 recognize is a Tiefling that i know.
@Tanthalas, so i will have to disagree with you in this matter, cos to do a crap work i prefer no change at all. I truly believe that with time Beamdog maybe could negotiate more permissions to change the game (based on the sucess of BG EE sales), so even if the modders don't add a drow race (what i think they probally gonna do), maybe on the future we have a decent drow integration, i'm in no hurry here.
All the IWD races added is not a problem IF they have the means of change the game to accept them.
IWD and probally IWD2 (i didn't play this one), don't focus on character develpment anyway, so if you're a mustard jelly the game will carry on, no problem, maybe you can't use a helmet but so what? It's a kind of D&D game ppl like that don't have the huge need of coherence that BG has. My fear isthat this reckless request turn Baldur's Gate into an Icewind Dale plot style, fading the brightness of NPCs interaction that's the greatest attraction BG offers to us.
@etagloc, dude this isn't even an argument, there are at least 15 posts that show how hollow is this speech. Just give a search on this thread to find them.
This is fantasy. So if folks want to play that a drow that attempts to conceal his or her identity under a cowled hood or inside a helmet, I can see how that would be fun. Per canon, the public reaction to a drow would be immensely hostile. If NPC reactions were adapted accordingly, then I can see how it could be a satisfying mod to RP. It's all moddable I would think.
@warissop Elistraee and Vaheraaun where well alive after the time of trouble, they died in the transit betwen the 3rd edition and 4th edition, not betwen first and 2... Vaheraun is an evil drow, but it's not Lolth cleargy and the cult is surface based, it's not the same kind of evil
This is exactly the reason why I think Drow should be playable. The Azkovyn clan who live on the surface and worship Vhaeraun even promote interracial marriage. Worshippers of Vhaeraun oppose Llolth, and their Clerics are mostly all Males as opposed to Llolth Clerics. They are very different and there's absolutely no reason that those Drows couldn't be playable.
Comments
edit - I stand by the yes or no, simplicity though!
However, if drows ARE implemented, then AT LEAST the (admitedly few) things that happen to you because of Viconia should be obligatory, as well as the people who persecute her (such as those Flaming Fist) should also try and kill you as well. Otherwise, a drow PC would be poor and cheaply implemented in a way that was best left for mods.
Though I just remembered that half-orcs are also a choice... heh... would any Faerun nerd care to enlighten me on what exactly the image of a green-skinned half-breed implies for you?
Well, he wouldn't have to be good. He would probably have to hide his true nature if he were evil. Likewise, I don't think an evil CHARNAME of any race would be tolerated in Candlekeep if he was blatantly obvious with his evil.
I don't mean to shoot you down or start an arguement, it's just that you seem to be comparing drow to other races as if they're seen equally, and even in candlekeep, they just aren't. Drow are widely regarded as pure evil, other races aren't.
I guess we're both just seeing what we want to see.
I want to prove that being Drow isn't a problem, so I see characters like Drizzt and Viconia surviving and I see a Drow being brought up since a baby in Candlekeep allowing him to blend in with the people there.
It's not a plot problem, it's a script problem. has nothing to do with the want or not want drow but it's a point to consider if someone want to make the implementation with -10 rep penality.
That seems to be a notable problem with Viconia to me.
Drizzt may be good, but he is a cultural anomaly, as the rest of his kind are some of the most sinister and evil creatures in the history of fantasy. I am against the implementation of Drow as a playable race. However, if they were to be added, an evil alignment choice should be *mandatory*, thus ensuring the player is not picking them simply to "look cool."
That seems to be a notable problem with Viconia to me.
@Jolanthus - I guess when I say "notable problem", I mean she doesn't try to kill her in a fight to the death over differing viewpoints. Besides, Viconia IS actually evil, and Jaheira (like most good companions) has at least some verbal sparring with all evil companions. I'm sure if you played an evil Drow, all the good companions, including possible love interests, would hate you. But if you played a good character, they would at least give you a chance (hopefully).
@kamuizin - Well then we make the reputation drop just low enough that the city guards don't attack you on sight until you PROVE you are evil.
I personally would not like drow included in the game (for lore reasons), but if they were, it stands to reason that they should suffer from a large reputation hit, and possibly a reputation cap to represent their inability to rid themselves of society's preconceptions.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eilistraee
It's funny this thread cos as i said before i want a playable drow, not a bullshit that only exist cos it's wrote drow on my character screen. A playable drow is a pack of problems and challenges, if that can't be done don't do it at all.
Rep penality is a palliative for a huge problem, it don't even scrach the surface of the problem. Besides, i just can't understand why modders can't satisfy the drow need here. They're not binded by Atari copyright assignment with Beamdog, so... Anyone care to explain?
Having all the IWD2 subraces in BGEE is something that I really hope they eventually add.
@Tanthalas, so i will have to disagree with you in this matter, cos to do a crap work i prefer no change at all. I truly believe that with time Beamdog maybe could negotiate more permissions to change the game (based on the sucess of BG EE sales), so even if the modders don't add a drow race (what i think they probally gonna do), maybe on the future we have a decent drow integration, i'm in no hurry here.
All the IWD races added is not a problem IF they have the means of change the game to accept them.
IWD and probally IWD2 (i didn't play this one), don't focus on character develpment anyway, so if you're a mustard jelly the game will carry on, no problem, maybe you can't use a helmet but so what? It's a kind of D&D game ppl like that don't have the huge need of coherence that BG has. My fear isthat this reckless request turn Baldur's Gate into an Icewind Dale plot style, fading the brightness of NPCs interaction that's the greatest attraction BG offers to us.
@etagloc, dude this isn't even an argument, there are at least 15 posts that show how hollow is this speech. Just give a search on this thread to find them.
But that's just the thing, to me, adding subraces wouldn't diminish BG even if one of those races were a Drow, Duergar or Svirfneblin.