What i mean is that, if they put drows in the game, they could add some more dialogue and npc interactions to justify the race, until you up your reputation enough so people don't have a problem with you.
Blackguard is a class, but a blackguard emanates evil as far as i know, and unless it's a totally different blackguard, a champion of evil is not welcome anywhere, it's not just an evil fighter, he has an aura of evil affecting people around him. We'll have to see about that of course.
Adalon won't be noticed yeah, but adalon was never meant to join your party, Viconia is a member of your party.
So i say, add some scripts so that the player can feel that he is a drow, people will react to him, but with reputation gains, this should ease up.
Let's make it realistic yes, but let's not make it unplayable just because we don't like the idea, cause i saw some pretty stretched suggestions here.
Maybe Blackguard is explained by the post above, but then again, Gorion would have understood it possibly, anyway.
@Mornmagor So you want the game to not acknowledge that you're Drow to alliviate the problem of people going completely mental as soon as you walk into the village. And surely you agree that spell-like abilities and magic resistance is by far overpowered compared to the other player races, they'll have to go.
So you're playing a drow that doesn't have the abilities of a Drow and isn't recognised as a Drow. Why do you still want to play one? Why doesn't an Elf with black skin and white hair suffice at this point?
Blackguard is a class, but a blackguard emanates evil as far as i know, and unless it's a totally different blackguard, a champion of evil is not welcome anywhere, it's not just an evil fighter, he has an aura of evil affecting people around him. We'll have to see about that of course.
Going by 3rd Edition rules, the Blackguard's evil aura is only visible to those using the spell Detect Evil, and his Aura of Despair only affects enemies.
Nobody is going to know the Blackguard is a champion of evil, because no Blackguard would be stupid enough to bluster into a town proclaiming how great Talos is unless he intended to burn that town to the ground immediately after.
Further, even claiming to worship an evil god wouldn't mean much to the average person other than "avoid that guy." Even a Paladin of the Order of the Radiant Heart can legally do nothing to you just because he overhears you say "I give praise to Vecna." The laws of most Sword Coast territories don't support religious fanaticism.
They can't put in Drow.. they just can't. From what we've been told, they are not allowed to change or alter already existing npc content. So, Viccy is going to keep calling us an surfacer.. We being Drow or not
This is just one example, but the games are riddled with the PC being referred to as either surfacer or of a non-underdark pedigree.. So yeah, unless they're allowed to rewrite dozens of lines of dialogue, they can't do it.
I understand that many people dislike drow on principle, being the infamous diabolic, egocentric bastards they are, epitomy of evil and all that, I can understand that you refuse to play a drow PC, that's perfectly understandable, I mean it is your own right, DON'T PLAY A DROW --NEVER, but why on earth would you deny people that like drow the chance to actually get to play one in BG?
The arguments that they are extremely rare in Sword Coast or even OP are non arguments, you already have Viconia from BG1 all the way to ToB with MR like 50% from the first time you recruit her, so why not a PC drow, and Over Powered ???
What's wrong with being OP? The PC one way or another becomes OP by late SoA. Give Cloak of Balduran + Ring of Gaxx + Carsomyr on a Human Paladin and you get Magic Resistance more than any drow sucker...
So why a goodie two-shoes Champion and Promotor of Law should not be considered OP when a drow should...
And finally talking of adding playable DROW means all posible subraces not drow only, so that everyone can enjoy their favorite hero the way they feel more content and happy with them.
They are not allowed to make big changes to the old content, only bug fixes and new content in new zones and minor changes to the old.. so they cant change the NPCs to respond to the main char being a drow. Just like they cant change the NPCs to respond to you being any other race (as far as I remember at least).
And since the game would be very different if the main char were a drow. 50/50 chance of being chased out of town by an angry pitchfork/torch wielding mob, and the like.
I at least know, that it would break my immersion into the game completely to play a drow, and just be treated completely like any other race. Because in every single piece of lore/history I have read about the forgotten realms.. Drows are seen as just below demons and devils when it comes to being evil incarnated.. And since the player char is a complete nobody in BG.. there will be no great deeds to prevent said mob from charging at them.
Remember.. Drizzt spend the better part of a book just running around and helping people, before any one even gave him a chance, and even after he had proven himself.. he were still only treated neutral by the majority of people.
A Drow coming to the surface and carving out a life there is a story all on it's own, and probably a pretty dark and depressing one at that -- just look at Viconia; used as a sex slave by those who rescued her, tortured and buried alive by those she considered her friends, judged and hated for the color of her skin and having to hide her identity wherever she goes... and we all know what happened when a random commoner finally did guess her true nature in Atkathla. That is what it's like to be a Drow on the surface. And guess how the people of Candlekeep would've reacted if Gorion had come to the gates one day with a Drow in tow... Sorry, but it simply doesn't fit. Not in this story.
I totally agree, but that sounds like such a great game! I guess someone should just make a game where you do that as Baldur's gate already has a story.
50/50 chance of being chased out of town by an angry pitchfork/torch wielding mob, and the like...
Same goes for a party including Viccy, never actually saw it happen in ORIGINAL version of BG series though, except in a much smaller scale when you first recruit her in both games... That's why Vic's portrait is hooded, tries to conceal her real id, same could be the case with said PC, No?
@kamuizin Strange. Let's say that Gorion WOULD adopt drow-charname. But guess what? By that action, he's abandoning human child instead... That's less reasonable than other way around. But don't get me wrong. It's not like I wouldn't ever want to play as drow (hell, I'm playing them in IWD2) but in BG it just don't work. It is a miracle already that we have half-orc.
Playing a drow would break the suspension of disbelief, but so would playing a half-orc, or a blackguard or a cleric of an evil deity.
However, this is a single player game! If the option exists for you to play a drow, it doesn't mean you are required to take it. If you don't like playing as a drow, you can still play as the original races. You are in no way whatsoever hindered by the addition of drow.
On the other hand, those that would love to play a drow, not caring about said drow not fitting in the storyline, or having slightly overpowered stats, would love for the option to exist. So why not let them if it doesn't hinder you?
@nizhidrhamannit did you read the other posts before write? Cos you're acting like who don't want drow also don't want evil, and that's completly nosense. I'm one of the most pro-evil from this forum, i would love more evil plots, quests and options, i gave a lot of ideas to how make evil work, ppl don't want drow not cos he's evil, that's just your assumption, ppl don't want a drow cos he's incompatible with bhaalspawn saga.
Here are many ideas i shared to improve evil and balance alignments on the game for example:
@ZelgadisGW, are you saying that abandon a human children to save a drow children is an evil act? Dude watch out, cos next you're gonna say that save a black children instead of a white one is evil too, this is totally prejudice, no one is born evil, what make a drow evil is the society were they grow up (with few exceptions as some childrens can have a tendency, yes).
Blackguard is a class, but a blackguard emanates evil as far as i know, and unless it's a totally different blackguard, a champion of evil is not welcome anywhere, it's not just an evil fighter, he has an aura of evil affecting people around him. We'll have to see about that of course.
Going by 3rd Edition rules, the Blackguard's evil aura is only visible to those using the spell Detect Evil, and his Aura of Despair only affects enemies.
Nobody is going to know the Blackguard is a champion of evil, because no Blackguard would be stupid enough to bluster into a town proclaiming how great Talos is unless he intended to burn that town to the ground immediately after.
Further, even claiming to worship an evil god wouldn't mean much to the average person other than "avoid that guy." Even a Paladin of the Order of the Radiant Heart can legally do nothing to you just because he overhears you say "I give praise to Vecna." The laws of most Sword Coast territories don't support religious fanaticism.
Good point about the blackguard, although there is still some "grey area" about how was he able to be one.
Maybe i was imagining him to be unable to supress his aura of despair, although the rules say enemies only, so he should be able to direct it.
In the end, the only problem is with how was he able to become a blackguard, it does take quite a bit of imagination for BG1, if it was BG2 starting it would be much easier to explain.
@Drugar, no i didn't say that, i said what already happens in the game. No one cares that Viconia is in my party and speaks for the party, no one acknowledges she's a black demon from below. It would be inconvenient if everyone you talked started saying the same thing over and over : "OMG Drow!" you would be force to tha same dialogue with everyone. But if you're so fixed that everyone should chase you out, all the towns or villages with orc bandits shouldn't chase you out as well if you're a half-orc? And something else, how many people actually know the drow, and how evil and dangerous they are? Aren't they supposed to be rare? How come everyone knows about them and recognizes them even? I imagine i can't hide the fact that i'm a drow either with illusions or even disguise, which doesn't exist in the game? Convenience maybe?
As for the spells, Viconia doesn't have any spells, only MR, why should it go away? Isn't there an NPC recruitable that has it? I can break physical or magic resistance with items anyway.
Also, why shouldn't i be able to make a drow character for the black pits, which is totally irrelevant to the story?
If the drow race will be released with additional dialogue-/interactions to actually fit the saga, then yes. Otherwise no. The LORE is everything - and should always be present. 'Evil' (Underdark, "monstrous") races are killed on sight along the Sword Coast, such as Drow, Orcs, Svirfneblins, Tieflings and other half-races and such - other "non-ideal" races are treated with disrespect and should face racism according to Forgotten Realms Lore.
Everytime anyone starts a good-/neutral drow/half-drow PC in Persistent Worlds (nwn) without reading the lore-/settings, I always do a facepalm.
@karpasz what do you have against Svifneblins eh? what did they ever do to you? Just because they come from under the ground does not make them evil like the Drow :P
Yes I did read them, obviously you haven't read mine.
I couldn't care less for evil plots, I ALWAYS play the good guy, what can I do, I hate diabolic & egocentric bastards like the majority of the drow... I always do a nice Ust Natha genocide, right before I deliver Adalon's real eggs to the Silver Dragon Lady.
I play either the goodie-two shoe paladin or the (comsetic only due to original game mechanics) Chaotic Good Fighter/Mage/Thief drow, I become ridiculously Over Powered and enjoy givin' a good smackin' to all evil doers...
"BUTT KiCKIN' FOR GOODNESS..." like a good friend of mine used to say...
would be cool to play as a drow but as people said they really should be able to change the plot otherwise it wont work. i would def like to see a playable drow in BGIII
@Kamuizin Not really, you just don't get what I want to tell you. Saving human* would have been better for the long-term. Human wouldn't need to suffer so much as drow, wouldn't need to face so much hatred from other beings as drow would, human's chances of being killed on sight are a lot lower than drow's... And being Bhaalspawn is a heavy burden by itself. So let's adopt a drow and guarantee him miserable life, regardless of our best intentions... Seriously, need I explain it even more?
Forgotten Relams are working differently than our real world. In our world, rasism is almost evidently considered as something bad. In Forgotten Relams, racism towards Drow and such is considered a NORM. Something freaking normal. Now, try to convince every commoner in the relams that drows aren't really that bad. Good luck with that.
Oh, one more thing. Don't compare Drow to dark-skinned person - that's plain stupid. That's because skin colour is NOT the problem here.
*Also works for elves, half-elves, dwarfs, gnomes, halflings....
I am against it as I think Drow are only really accepted in the Icewind Dale area do to Drizzt Do'urden. They are quite vile and evil and BG doesn't really support their style of evil. They would exploit the war and make profits even if they weren't trying to participate, nothing in Baldur's Gate even allows you to really profit off the whole disaster.
You obviously completelly unaware of the cult's of Elistrae and Vaheraun
Eilistraee yes, Vheraun, no. Vheraun is an evil outsider that is basically like a huge worm thing from the Abyss. Not a good influence on the Drow that worship him, um, it.
Edit: Oops, my bad. I was thinking Ghaunadaur. There is also Selvetarm, but Ghaundaur, Selvetarm and Vheraun are all evil.
Good point about the blackguard, although there is still some "grey area" about how was he able to be one.
Maybe i was imagining him to be unable to supress his aura of despair, although the rules say enemies only, so he should be able to direct it.
In the end, the only problem is with how was he able to become a blackguard, it does take quite a bit of imagination for BG1, if it was BG2 starting it would be much easier to explain.
As I said in a previous post, there could be some sinister folks lurking within the walls of Candlekeep, biding their time waiting to steal important books, or simply spying for the Zhentarim or Sarevok. There could also be more than a couple Vecna worshipers living there as monks wanting to learn or keep secrets contained in those books. Any of the monks might secretly worship an evil deity, possibly giving praise to Talos in the hopes that an earthquake or tidal wave doesn't roll through and destroy all the books. These people might have taken a liking to an Evil-aligned PC, and taken him under their wing.
Nevermind that the PC is himself living in Candlekeep and is learning from its books. Maybe he gets curious one day and reads some dark tomes about evil deities and such. The deity's doctrine makes sense, and like any teenager hungry for answers, they experiment with some new ideology.
@Jankiel Yes, I realized my mistake almost immediately, but I had to look up the spelling of Ghaunadaur. That came out of the Greyhawk modules G3, D1-2 and D-3. (The ones with the Fire Giants, and the two underdark modules. D1-2 was one module.)
Anyhow, the Drow Deities Portfolios are: Eilistraee: Song, beauty, dance, swordwork, hunting and moonlight Ghaunadaur: Oozes, slimes, jellies, outcasts, ropers, rebels, all things subterranean Kiaransalee: Undead, vengeance Lolth (formerly Arushnee): Spiders, evil, darkness, chaos, assassins, the Drow race Selvetarm: Drow warriors Vhaeraun: Thievery, drow males, territory, evil activity on the surface world
Good point about the blackguard, although there is still some "grey area" about how was he able to be one.
Maybe i was imagining him to be unable to supress his aura of despair, although the rules say enemies only, so he should be able to direct it.
In the end, the only problem is with how was he able to become a blackguard, it does take quite a bit of imagination for BG1, if it was BG2 starting it would be much easier to explain.
As I said in a previous post, there could be some sinister folks lurking within the walls of Candlekeep, biding their time waiting to steal important books, or simply spying for the Zhentarim or Sarevok. There could also be more than a couple Vecna worshipers living there as monks wanting to learn or keep secrets contained in those books. Any of the monks might secretly worship an evil deity, possibly giving praise to Talos in the hopes that an earthquake or tidal wave doesn't roll through and destroy all the books. These people might have taken a liking to an Evil-aligned PC, and taken him under their wing.
Nevermind that the PC is himself living in Candlekeep and is learning from its books. Maybe he gets curious one day and reads some dark tomes about evil deities and such. The deity's doctrine makes sense, and like any teenager hungry for answers, they experiment with some new ideology.
Yeah there could be, but right under Gorion's nose? Anyway anything is possible more or less, especially if the powers of a blackguard are not something just learned but maybe "awakened" from a shock or a mind/heart going astray for some reason, since i don't know after all what kind of blackguard this is. For all i know even a broken heart or the sense of being powerless could lead people to despair and either awaken something in them, or enforce them to search for another way to battle their sense of being powerless.
After all... "If fate is a principle beyond human comprehension which capriciously torments man, then it is karma that man confront fate by embracing sorcery." Right? well, replace sorcery with something more sinister.
Something not told by the story, but i have a big imagination, the only thing that sounds somewhat weak is that Gorion would not understand anything, then again, Gorion could not foresee he would be ambushed on the road, he could have been preoccupied with other things.
As for the drow part, i don't see a problem with them. They would be a different race than the ones living underground, having only magic resistance, or less and some minor other things, like multiclass options allowing kits.
For the story not making sense with drow, we can after all alter some NPCs to actually react to you, if they add drow they will make sure some dialogue will stir up, it's not something that will be done half-assed. I still think though that orcs are more of a problem in that area, so half-orcs should have it tougher. I don't think i met a half-orc in the whole of BG1, and in BG2 how many were there? 1 in TOB? Yeah they were even rarer than drow lol.
However if this dialogue remake would something like "OMG a drow?" like everyone and their children recognize a drow through their helmets even, well what can i say.
@Mornmagor What does Gorion have to do with it? He's a mage, not a mind-reader. He doesn't interrogate every single person at Candlekeep. Keep in mind, some two-bit assassins with mundane daggers manage to sneak into Candlekeep to try and kill the PC. Do you really think a trained spy or dark priest couldn't hide there?
Comments
Blackguard is a class, but a blackguard emanates evil as far as i know, and unless it's a totally different blackguard, a champion of evil is not welcome anywhere, it's not just an evil fighter, he has an aura of evil affecting people around him. We'll have to see about that of course.
Adalon won't be noticed yeah, but adalon was never meant to join your party, Viconia is a member of your party.
So i say, add some scripts so that the player can feel that he is a drow, people will react to him, but with reputation gains, this should ease up.
Let's make it realistic yes, but let's not make it unplayable just because we don't like the idea, cause i saw some pretty stretched suggestions here.
Maybe Blackguard is explained by the post above, but then again, Gorion would have understood it possibly, anyway.
So you want the game to not acknowledge that you're Drow to alliviate the problem of people going completely mental as soon as you walk into the village. And surely you agree that spell-like abilities and magic resistance is by far overpowered compared to the other player races, they'll have to go.
So you're playing a drow that doesn't have the abilities of a Drow and isn't recognised as a Drow. Why do you still want to play one? Why doesn't an Elf with black skin and white hair suffice at this point?
Nobody is going to know the Blackguard is a champion of evil, because no Blackguard would be stupid enough to bluster into a town proclaiming how great Talos is unless he intended to burn that town to the ground immediately after.
Further, even claiming to worship an evil god wouldn't mean much to the average person other than "avoid that guy." Even a Paladin of the Order of the Radiant Heart can legally do nothing to you just because he overhears you say "I give praise to Vecna." The laws of most Sword Coast territories don't support religious fanaticism.
This is just one example, but the games are riddled with the PC being referred to as either surfacer or of a non-underdark pedigree.. So yeah, unless they're allowed to rewrite dozens of lines of dialogue, they can't do it.
The arguments that they are extremely rare in Sword Coast or even OP are non arguments, you already have Viconia from BG1 all the way to ToB with MR like 50% from the first time you recruit her, so why not a PC drow, and Over Powered ???
What's wrong with being OP? The PC one way or another becomes OP by late SoA. Give Cloak of Balduran + Ring of Gaxx + Carsomyr on a Human Paladin and you get Magic Resistance more than any drow sucker...
So why a goodie two-shoes Champion and Promotor of Law should not be considered OP when a drow should...
And finally talking of adding playable DROW means all posible subraces not drow only, so that everyone can enjoy their favorite hero the way they feel more content and happy with them.
And since the game would be very different if the main char were a drow. 50/50 chance of being chased out of town by an angry pitchfork/torch wielding mob, and the like.
I at least know, that it would break my immersion into the game completely to play a drow, and just be treated completely like any other race. Because in every single piece of lore/history I have read about the forgotten realms.. Drows are seen as just below demons and devils when it comes to being evil incarnated.. And since the player char is a complete nobody in BG.. there will be no great deeds to prevent said mob from charging at them.
Remember.. Drizzt spend the better part of a book just running around and helping people, before any one even gave him a chance, and even after he had proven himself.. he were still only treated neutral by the majority of people.
That's why Vic's portrait is hooded, tries to conceal her real id, same could be the case with said PC, No?
Playing a drow would break the suspension of disbelief, but so would playing a half-orc, or a blackguard or a cleric of an evil deity.
However, this is a single player game! If the option exists for you to play a drow, it doesn't mean you are required to take it. If you don't like playing as a drow, you can still play as the original races. You are in no way whatsoever hindered by the addition of drow.
On the other hand, those that would love to play a drow, not caring about said drow not fitting in the storyline, or having slightly overpowered stats, would love for the option to exist. So why not let them if it doesn't hinder you?
Here are many ideas i shared to improve evil and balance alignments on the game for example:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/9964/#Comment_9964
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/5931/#Comment_5931
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/1084/mass-hostility/p1
@ZelgadisGW, are you saying that abandon a human children to save a drow children is an evil act? Dude watch out, cos next you're gonna say that save a black children instead of a white one is evil too, this is totally prejudice, no one is born evil, what make a drow evil is the society were they grow up (with few exceptions as some childrens can have a tendency, yes).
Maybe i was imagining him to be unable to supress his aura of despair, although the rules say enemies only, so he should be able to direct it.
In the end, the only problem is with how was he able to become a blackguard, it does take quite a bit of imagination for BG1, if it was BG2 starting it would be much easier to explain.
@Drugar, no i didn't say that, i said what already happens in the game. No one cares that Viconia is in my party and speaks for the party, no one acknowledges she's a black demon from below. It would be inconvenient if everyone you talked started saying the same thing over and over : "OMG Drow!" you would be force to tha same dialogue with everyone. But if you're so fixed that everyone should chase you out, all the towns or villages with orc bandits shouldn't chase you out as well if you're a half-orc? And something else, how many people actually know the drow, and how evil and dangerous they are? Aren't they supposed to be rare? How come everyone knows about them and recognizes them even? I imagine i can't hide the fact that i'm a drow either with illusions or even disguise, which doesn't exist in the game? Convenience maybe?
As for the spells, Viconia doesn't have any spells, only MR, why should it go away? Isn't there an NPC recruitable that has it? I can break physical or magic resistance with items anyway.
Also, why shouldn't i be able to make a drow character for the black pits, which is totally irrelevant to the story?
The LORE is everything - and should always be present. 'Evil' (Underdark, "monstrous") races are killed on sight along the Sword Coast, such as Drow, Orcs, Svirfneblins, Tieflings and other half-races and such - other "non-ideal" races are treated with disrespect and should face racism according to Forgotten Realms Lore.
Everytime anyone starts a good-/neutral drow/half-drow PC in Persistent Worlds (nwn) without reading the lore-/settings, I always do a facepalm.
I couldn't care less for evil plots, I ALWAYS play the good guy, what can I do, I hate diabolic & egocentric bastards like the majority of the drow... I always do a nice Ust Natha genocide, right before I deliver Adalon's real eggs to the Silver Dragon Lady.
I play either the goodie-two shoe paladin or the (comsetic only due to original game mechanics) Chaotic Good Fighter/Mage/Thief drow, I become ridiculously Over Powered and enjoy givin' a good smackin' to all evil doers...
"BUTT KiCKIN' FOR GOODNESS..." like a good friend of mine used to say...
Forgotten Relams are working differently than our real world. In our world, rasism is almost evidently considered as something bad. In Forgotten Relams, racism towards Drow and such is considered a NORM. Something freaking normal. Now, try to convince every commoner in the relams that drows aren't really that bad. Good luck with that.
Oh, one more thing. Don't compare Drow to dark-skinned person - that's plain stupid. That's because skin colour is NOT the problem here.
*Also works for elves, half-elves, dwarfs, gnomes, halflings....
What's the big deal then, what do you care if there are plot issues, let the people who want to play a drow worry about those issues...
Edit: Oops, my bad. I was thinking Ghaunadaur. There is also Selvetarm, but Ghaundaur, Selvetarm and Vheraun are all evil.
Nevermind that the PC is himself living in Candlekeep and is learning from its books. Maybe he gets curious one day and reads some dark tomes about evil deities and such. The deity's doctrine makes sense, and like any teenager hungry for answers, they experiment with some new ideology.
Anyhow, the Drow Deities Portfolios are: Eilistraee: Song, beauty, dance, swordwork, hunting and moonlight
Ghaunadaur: Oozes, slimes, jellies, outcasts, ropers, rebels, all things subterranean
Kiaransalee: Undead, vengeance
Lolth (formerly Arushnee): Spiders, evil, darkness, chaos, assassins, the Drow race
Selvetarm: Drow warriors
Vhaeraun: Thievery, drow males, territory, evil activity on the surface world
After all... "If fate is a principle beyond human comprehension which capriciously torments man, then it is karma that man confront fate by embracing sorcery." Right?
Something not told by the story, but i have a big imagination, the only thing that sounds somewhat weak is that Gorion would not understand anything, then again, Gorion could not foresee he would be ambushed on the road, he could have been preoccupied with other things.
As for the drow part, i don't see a problem with them. They would be a different race than the ones living underground, having only magic resistance, or less and some minor other things, like multiclass options allowing kits.
For the story not making sense with drow, we can after all alter some NPCs to actually react to you, if they add drow they will make sure some dialogue will stir up, it's not something that will be done half-assed. I still think though that orcs are more of a problem in that area, so half-orcs should have it tougher. I don't think i met a half-orc in the whole of BG1, and in BG2 how many were there? 1 in TOB? Yeah they were even rarer than drow lol.
However if this dialogue remake would something like "OMG a drow?" like everyone and their children recognize a drow through their helmets even, well what can i say.
Were there problems for being a drow in IWD2?
What does Gorion have to do with it? He's a mage, not a mind-reader. He doesn't interrogate every single person at Candlekeep. Keep in mind, some two-bit assassins with mundane daggers manage to sneak into Candlekeep to try and kill the PC. Do you really think a trained spy or dark priest couldn't hide there?