Dude, drow is much more than just status on the table:
+2 int, cha, dex / -2 con. 11%+class level magic resistance (but this is in D&D 3.5, in AD&D drow resistance is higher). Dancing light, dark vision, darkness and faerie fire as innate spell abilities. +2 save vs enchantment effects (in 3.5 is +2 to will).
Being able to play as drow without a whole lot of situational dialogue added would just feel empty and pointless in my opinion. Reactions from people you meet, Viconia, the underdark stint in BG2, etc. It all assumes that the PC has limited knowledge of drow, and definitely that they aren't one themselves.
Dude, drow is much more than just status on the table:
+2 int, cha, dex / -2 con. 11%+class level magic resistance (but this is in D&D 3.5, in AD&D drow resistance is higher). Dancing light, dark vision, darkness and faerie fire as innate spell abilities. +2 save vs enchantment effects (in 3.5 is +2 to will).
Drow lose a lot of that being on the surface. At least when BG is set. That's why Drizzt no longer has those abilities but modern surface drow do.
While I don't really want drow if they are included. Then other sub races should be included from the start also.
I don't think I would play a drow often, but if Viconia can exist, so can a PC the argument that drow are necessarily evil is a weak one, as the PC is raised by Gorian, regardless of your heritage
Why would it? we would not be raised as drow, we would be raised as Gorion ward... raised as a surfacer and by the fact that there is good drow on the surface at that time, and that we are raised as Gorion ward it's as open as any other race
SPOILER FROM THRONE OF BHAAL AHEAD
Imagine Gorion 20 years before events of Baldur's Gate. Together with harpers, he invades Bhaal temple and kills high priestess ( mother). Now, before making his escape, Gorion has too choose which of the two child he should save: human boy (Sarevok), or drow child (charname). Which one you think he would choose? Of course human. That's because drows being considered an evil race, and furthermore, that drow child is an Bhaalspawn, which makes adopting it even more risky.
Beside all of this, I have heard and always thought that Drows, half-ogres, orcs and other "evil" races are killed on sight on Sword Coast. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Why would it? we would not be raised as drow, we would be raised as Gorion ward... raised as a surfacer and by the fact that there is good drow on the surface at that time, and that we are raised as Gorion ward it's as open as any other race
SPOILER FROM THRONE OF BHAAL AHEAD
Imagine Gorion 20 years before events of Baldur's Gate. Together with harpers, he invades Bhaal temple and kills high priestess ( mother). Now, before making his escape, Gorion has too choose which of the two child he should save: human boy (Sarevok), or drow child (charname). Which one you think he would choose? Of course human. That's because drows being considered an evil race, and furthermore, that drow child is an Bhaalspawn, which makes adopting it even more risky.
Beside all of this, I have heard and always thought that Drows, half-ogres, orcs and other "evil" races are killed on sight on Sword Coast. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Imagine Gorion 20 years before events of Baldur's Gate. Together with harpers, he invades Bhaal temple and kills high priestess ( mother). Now, before making his escape, Gorion has too choose which of the two child he should save: human boy (Sarevok), or drow child (charname). Which one you think he would choose? Of course human. That's because drows being considered an evil race, and furthermore, that drow child is an Bhaalspawn, which makes adopting it even more risky.
I don't really think this is a strong argument. A good character like Gorion would consider a baby (regardless of race) as an innocent. He might even be more inclined to bring the drow baby along because that one stood a lesser chance if he left it. And besides, the same argument could be use as to why he chose to bring a half-orc baby along instead of a human one.
Dude, drow is much more than just status on the table:
+2 int, cha, dex / -2 con. 11%+class level magic resistance (but this is in D&D 3.5, in AD&D drow resistance is higher). Dancing light, dark vision, darkness and faerie fire as innate spell abilities. +2 save vs enchantment effects (in 3.5 is +2 to will).
That's 3 ed yeah.
The thing is, levitation cannot be implemented anyway since it doesn't exist, darkness doesn't exist, the only thing available is magic resistance, which is arguable for how long you can retain it without frequent visits underground. However you could rule it that since you are a surface drow, your magic resistance would be lower or even non existant. I remember trivializing resistances through magic items of course, making fire heal me lol.
If you want to implement something, you do it, these are excuses.
If a half-orc is playable, if a blackguard under the tutelage of Gorion is playable, drow is no problem.
And btw, the stats are +2 DEX +1 INT -2 CHA -1 CON, which are to be honest lame, unless you want to be an AC monster, which is perfectly viable without a drow anyway.
Drow doesn't add anything extraordinary, it's just another subrace, which if implemented, will not be that strong compared to any other race. Half-orcs are stronger in my opinion, since i can get magic resistance through items, if i remember correctly that is. Or a dwarf with 19 base CON, lol :P, spells don't touch him.
You can play as a Drow. Drow is a subrace of elves, just make an Elf with the really dark skin and you'll be fine. Sure it won't be any difference in dialogue, but do we really want that anyway?
A Drow coming to the surface and carving out a life there is a story all on it's own, and probably a pretty dark and depressing one at that -- just look at Viconia; used as a sex slave by those who rescued her, tortured and buried alive by those she considered her friends, judged and hated for the color of her skin and having to hide her identity wherever she goes... and we all know what happened when a random commoner finally did guess her true nature in Atkathla. That is what it's like to be a Drow on the surface. And guess how the people of Candlekeep would've reacted if Gorion had come to the gates one day with a Drow in tow... Sorry, but it simply doesn't fit. Not in this story.
Since the devs cant change the old dialog to reflect peoples reaction towards a drow playcer char.. I am against it.
As the Player char in BG you start out a nobody neutral to most of the world. That allow you to interact with all the quest giving NPCs and shape your own way in the world.
If you were a drow, all the NPCs would have a very negative view of you from the get go. Yes Drizzt is out there.. But there are so many more evil drow that I very much doubt that the NPCs would take a chance with the player character. So in the best of situations, you would not be able to get 50 % of the quests in the game.. Because face it.. who the hell send a person you view as a child murderer, out to find your son/help your friend/what ever... and in the worst of situations, you would get chased out of the city with an angry mob after you.
Guys, it's pretty simple. If they allow Drow for a pc race, it's gonna be in a way that makes sense.
But i still haven't heard how does it make sense to be a blackguard under Gorion's tutelage. And how does a blackguard with his aura of evil and -champion of evil badass- theme does not cause problems in towns but a drow will, is beyond me.
I am taking Viconia and speaking with her as a leader with every npc and taking quests normally. Why suddenly if i'm a Drow i won't be able to take quests? Why isn't anyone reacting to Viconia being drow but they will react to me?
These arguments don't make sense, the game doesn't care if you have a drow in the party, spare for a -2 reputation.
Being a Half-Orc for some areas suffering with orc invasions would be even worse, but i don't see any problems with Half-Orc characters.
Since the devs cant change the old dialog to reflect peoples reaction towards a drow playcer char.. I am against it.
They can't?
If they could (and it would be an enormous amount of rewriting) the result would probably be a campaign more about drows than bhaalspawns. Not what I want.
Against and only becauase I know they're unable to make modifications to the stock game. If they were allowed to make changes to existing NPC dialog, quests and the like to reflect our main character being a Drow, then I'd be for it.
Otherwise, make an elf, colour them purple/black and buy two scimitars.
Ew, even if I did want to be a drow, I'd give him a proper drow weapon, like a longsword or halberd. Not everybody who likes drow likes them because of Drizzt. -_-
@Mornmagor, no it will not make sense, what ppl should understand is that the problem is not on the past but on the future.
@ZelgadisGW position had no sense at all, sorry dude but it's true, gorion by far certainly is not a prejudiced person, he would never take in account not help a children just because she/hes is a drow. To say that Gorion would not raise a blackguard is not true, the truth is the main char inside candlekeep would never had acess to the right train to be a blackguard, the same goes to barbarian too.
Many of those kits only became acessible in BG2, by making BG1 use kits, naturally a lot of inconsistency will come from this.
The true problem of being a drow reside in conflicts with the storyline of the bhaalspawn saga. As i said before 1/2 the quests of the game would become inacessible/incompatible and at least 2 points of the game would become totally unbelievable, the moment you present to the dukes of Baldur's Gate proof against sarevok during his coronation cerimony, and the escape of underdark where you have to deal with the elvens legions.
Against and only becauase I know they're unable to make modifications to the stock game. If they were allowed to make changes to existing NPC dialog, quests and the like to reflect our main character being a Drow, then I'd be for it.
Otherwise, make an elf, colour them purple/black and buy two scimitars.
Ew, even if I did want to be a drow, I'd give him a proper drow weapon, like a longsword or halberd. Not everybody who likes drow likes them because of Drizzt. -_-
An hallbard a drow weapon? must be very uneasy to use in a cavern... But yeah i agree not everyone like drow because of Dritzz Do'Urden... like me, damn if the give me the choice i would play a drow bard if i could (2nd edition don't allow it, so will ptobably a theif/mage)
An hallbard a drow weapon? must be very uneasy to use in a cavern... But yeah i agree not everyone like drow because of Dritzz Do'Urden... like me, damn if the give me the choice i would play a drow bard if i could (2nd edition don't allow it, so will ptobably a theif/mage)
A long stick with a sharp pointy end not easy to use in a small corridor? No, that makes it easier to use, since there's virtually no way your opponent can get around you.
@Mornmagor, no it will not make sense, what ppl should understand is that the problem is not on the past but on the future.
@ZelgadisGW position had no sense at all, sorry dude but it's true, gorion by far certainly is not a prejudiced person, he would never take in account not help a children just because she/hes is a drow. To say that Gorion would not raise a blackguard is not true, the truth is the main char inside candlekeep would never had acess to the right train to be a blackguard, the same goes to barbarian too.
Many of those kits only became acessible in BG2, by making BG1 use kits, naturally a lot of inconsistency will come from this.
The true problem of being a drow reside in conflicts with the storyline of the bhaalspawn saga. As i said before 1/2 the quests of the game would become inacessible/incompatible and at least 2 points of the game would become totally unbelievable, the moment you present to the dukes of Baldur's Gate proof against sarevok during his coronation cerimony, and the escape of underdark where you have to deal with the elvens legions.
Not the past but the future? For now i fail to understand what you mean, this is vague.
Quests of the game inaccessible? Not true, i am using Viconia to speak and getting all the quests the same.
The dukes of Baldur's Gate and the Elven Legions did not seem to mind i had Viconia with me as a leader and spokesperson of the party.
No one reacts to you having a drow with you, or being a half-orc, a much more constant threat for people than drow that might appear once every year arguably.
So we will have a party of a half-orc blackguard, a drow a dwarf cleric of an evil god, a PC half-orc blackguard and who knows what else going to the Dukes of Baldur's Gate, and there will be no problem right? But if you were a drow instead of a half-orc, we would have trouble?
And no, a harper and a good person like Gorion would never raise someone to be a blackguard. Even if it was possible to become one inside Candlekeep (which shouldn't), he wouldn't agree to turn you into a champion of evil willingly. It's like a good citizen willingly raising his children to be murderers.
I don't agree with any arguments presented to be honest. The game does not care about drows in party or anything else, if there are inconsistencies to the story, they already exist, a drow won't change anything.
And for the last time, i can take all the quests with Viconia as the speaker to NPCs, they don't react to her being drow.
There is no problem, you guys are creating them because you don't like the idea. Orcs and half-orcs are much more hated and a constant threat than drows, but your character does not even get a reputation decrease for being a half-orc.
Anyway, i won't bother any more in this thread probably, people will always believe what they want.
Balckguard PC is easily explainable. Zhentarim or Iron Throne spy lurking about in Candlekeep takes CHARNAME under their wing, perhaps. One of the monks might secretly worship Vecna, Bane, Cyric, Tiamat, Talona, etc.
@Mornmagor let's not appeal to nonsense, you're making a good defence of your point since now, so it feels strange that in this last post you try to use a limit of the engine to justify a point...
Of course the game don't answer to Viconia presence most of the times, that happens cos the game was not coded to do that.
By the way you're wrong about the elven legions, viconia only leave the place alive by accepting a geas spell to link her to main char wishes and elven needs. That's pretty clear on act 6 of BG2.
You could use ctrl+Q with CLUAConsole active in BG2 and put Adalon in your party, and i'm pretty sure no one would notice the big white dragon in your party. Wanna know why? It's because the game script missed that (why i ask? XD).
A lack of script is not a justify, it's a mistake.
Blackguard is a class, you don't need to shout to the four winds that you're a blackguard, half-orcs are accepted on the northern society.
I will just ask you to not try to manipulate my argue please, as i said before blackguard is a class, you're not born one, it's incompatible with being raised in candlekeep yes, but a mistake of coherence don't justify another. What you try to say, correct if i'm wrong, is if a blackguard can be main char, why not a blackguard drow. I don't buy that.
Ps: English is not my native language, so nosense was the best world i could find to express what i mean, just to assure it's not used here with intent of offence.
Edit: yes, some ppl don't like the idea cos it brings inconsistence to the game, we justify our position also. As you make some valid points i hope you have an open mind to see the truth on our points of view too.
I don't want playable drow. It would render the lynching of Viconia in BG2 moot. Drow aren't tolerated in most human cultures in the Forgotten Realms, simple as that. Maybe if the game was taking place in Zhentil Keep...
Comments
+2 int, cha, dex / -2 con.
11%+class level magic resistance (but this is in D&D 3.5, in AD&D drow resistance is higher).
Dancing light, dark vision, darkness and faerie fire as innate spell abilities.
+2 save vs enchantment effects (in 3.5 is +2 to will).
And it's useless to compare with Drizzt, Drizzt is a level 16 legend and unique among his kind. In BG1 the protagonist is a low level nobody.
While I don't really want drow if they are included. Then other sub races should be included from the start also.
the argument that drow are necessarily evil is a weak one, as the PC is raised by Gorian, regardless of your heritage
Imagine Gorion 20 years before events of Baldur's Gate. Together with harpers, he invades Bhaal temple and kills high priestess ( mother). Now, before making his escape, Gorion has too choose which of the two child he should save: human boy (Sarevok), or drow child (charname). Which one you think he would choose? Of course human. That's because drows being considered an evil race, and furthermore, that drow child is an Bhaalspawn, which makes adopting it even more risky.
Beside all of this, I have heard and always thought that Drows, half-ogres, orcs and other "evil" races are killed on sight on Sword Coast. Correct me if I'm wrong.
The thing is, levitation cannot be implemented anyway since it doesn't exist, darkness doesn't exist, the only thing available is magic resistance, which is arguable for how long you can retain it without frequent visits underground. However you could rule it that since you are a surface drow, your magic resistance would be lower or even non existant. I remember trivializing resistances through magic items of course, making fire heal me lol.
If you want to implement something, you do it, these are excuses.
If a half-orc is playable, if a blackguard under the tutelage of Gorion is playable, drow is no problem.
And btw, the stats are +2 DEX +1 INT -2 CHA -1 CON, which are to be honest lame, unless you want to be an AC monster, which is perfectly viable without a drow anyway.
Drow doesn't add anything extraordinary, it's just another subrace, which if implemented, will not be that strong compared to any other race. Half-orcs are stronger in my opinion, since i can get magic resistance through items, if i remember correctly that is. Or a dwarf with 19 base CON, lol :P, spells don't touch him.
A Drow coming to the surface and carving out a life there is a story all on it's own, and probably a pretty dark and depressing one at that -- just look at Viconia; used as a sex slave by those who rescued her, tortured and buried alive by those she considered her friends, judged and hated for the color of her skin and having to hide her identity wherever she goes... and we all know what happened when a random commoner finally did guess her true nature in Atkathla. That is what it's like to be a Drow on the surface. And guess how the people of Candlekeep would've reacted if Gorion had come to the gates one day with a Drow in tow... Sorry, but it simply doesn't fit. Not in this story.
As the Player char in BG you start out a nobody neutral to most of the world. That allow you to interact with all the quest giving NPCs and shape your own way in the world.
If you were a drow, all the NPCs would have a very negative view of you from the get go. Yes Drizzt is out there.. But there are so many more evil drow that I very much doubt that the NPCs would take a chance with the player character. So in the best of situations, you would not be able to get 50 % of the quests in the game.. Because face it.. who the hell send a person you view as a child murderer, out to find your son/help your friend/what ever... and in the worst of situations, you would get chased out of the city with an angry mob after you.
But i still haven't heard how does it make sense to be a blackguard under Gorion's tutelage. And how does a blackguard with his aura of evil and -champion of evil badass- theme does not cause problems in towns but a drow will, is beyond me.
I am taking Viconia and speaking with her as a leader with every npc and taking quests normally. Why suddenly if i'm a Drow i won't be able to take quests? Why isn't anyone reacting to Viconia being drow but they will react to me?
These arguments don't make sense, the game doesn't care if you have a drow in the party, spare for a -2 reputation.
Being a Half-Orc for some areas suffering with orc invasions would be even worse, but i don't see any problems with Half-Orc characters.
If they could (and it would be an enormous amount of rewriting) the result would probably be a campaign more about drows than bhaalspawns. Not what I want.
@ZelgadisGW position had no sense at all, sorry dude but it's true, gorion by far certainly is not a prejudiced person, he would never take in account not help a children just because she/hes is a drow. To say that Gorion would not raise a blackguard is not true, the truth is the main char inside candlekeep would never had acess to the right train to be a blackguard, the same goes to barbarian too.
Many of those kits only became acessible in BG2, by making BG1 use kits, naturally a lot of inconsistency will come from this.
The true problem of being a drow reside in conflicts with the storyline of the bhaalspawn saga. As i said before 1/2 the quests of the game would become inacessible/incompatible and at least 2 points of the game would become totally unbelievable, the moment you present to the dukes of Baldur's Gate proof against sarevok during his coronation cerimony, and the escape of underdark where you have to deal with the elvens legions.
But yeah i agree not everyone like drow because of Dritzz Do'Urden... like me, damn if the give me the choice i would play a drow bard if i could (2nd edition don't allow it, so will ptobably a theif/mage)
Quests of the game inaccessible? Not true, i am using Viconia to speak and getting all the quests the same.
The dukes of Baldur's Gate and the Elven Legions did not seem to mind i had Viconia with me as a leader and spokesperson of the party.
No one reacts to you having a drow with you, or being a half-orc, a much more constant threat for people than drow that might appear once every year arguably.
So we will have a party of a half-orc blackguard, a drow a dwarf cleric of an evil god, a PC half-orc blackguard and who knows what else going to the Dukes of Baldur's Gate, and there will be no problem right? But if you were a drow instead of a half-orc, we would have trouble?
And no, a harper and a good person like Gorion would never raise someone to be a blackguard. Even if it was possible to become one inside Candlekeep (which shouldn't), he wouldn't agree to turn you into a champion of evil willingly. It's like a good citizen willingly raising his children to be murderers.
I don't agree with any arguments presented to be honest. The game does not care about drows in party or anything else, if there are inconsistencies to the story, they already exist, a drow won't change anything.
And for the last time, i can take all the quests with Viconia as the speaker to NPCs, they don't react to her being drow.
There is no problem, you guys are creating them because you don't like the idea. Orcs and half-orcs are much more hated and a constant threat than drows, but your character does not even get a reputation decrease for being a half-orc.
Anyway, i won't bother any more in this thread probably, people will always believe what they want.
Of course the game don't answer to Viconia presence most of the times, that happens cos the game was not coded to do that.
By the way you're wrong about the elven legions, viconia only leave the place alive by accepting a geas spell to link her to main char wishes and elven needs. That's pretty clear on act 6 of BG2.
You could use ctrl+Q with CLUAConsole active in BG2 and put Adalon in your party, and i'm pretty sure no one would notice the big white dragon in your party. Wanna know why? It's because the game script missed that (why i ask? XD).
A lack of script is not a justify, it's a mistake.
Blackguard is a class, you don't need to shout to the four winds that you're a blackguard, half-orcs are accepted on the northern society.
I will just ask you to not try to manipulate my argue please, as i said before blackguard is a class, you're not born one, it's incompatible with being raised in candlekeep yes, but a mistake of coherence don't justify another. What you try to say, correct if i'm wrong, is if a blackguard can be main char, why not a blackguard drow. I don't buy that.
Ps: English is not my native language, so nosense was the best world i could find to express what i mean, just to assure it's not used here with intent of offence.
Edit: yes, some ppl don't like the idea cos it brings inconsistence to the game, we justify our position also. As you make some valid points i hope you have an open mind to see the truth on our points of view too.