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Is PnP accuracy important?

JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
edited September 2013 in Archive (General Discussion)
I know what some of you think about this, but I'm wondering which way the board as a whole is leaning. Is it important for Baldur's Gate to be accurate to 2nd Edition Pen and Paper D&D? Obviously right now the game isn't PnP accurate in a number of ways, and at least some of those ways are bad. I'd like you to Ignore that, if you can. I'm not asking whether you think the current implementation is perfect. I'm asking whether you think the best way to improve the game and fix its current problems is by implementing PnP rules in as strict a fashion as possible.

Now let's see what people think.
  1. Is PnP accuracy important?139 votes
    1. Yes. 2nd Edition D&D rules are perfect for Baldur's Gate and should be followed wherever possible.
      12.95%
    2. Somewhat. PnP accuracy is a high priority, but 2nd Edition D&D is not perfect and certain changes must be made.
      49.64%
    3. No. Accuracy to 2nd Edition D&D is of little or no importance to the quality of Baldur's Gate.
      30.22%
    4. Abstain. I have no dog in this fight, just show me the results.
        7.19%
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Comments

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    I think overall many things might be better if they were closer to DnD. I don't think being true to the rules should be the only priority, however.
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    Whilst now, 15 years later, old mechanics are fun, I could care less if baldurs gate had its own, unique system, as long as the story and characters stayed the same.
  • DrugarDrugar Member Posts: 1,566
    A lot of rules do not work for a computer game and thus should be changed.
    Original rules should be used as a good guideline however.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    I'm not sure I can answer this. I remember the AD&D rules well enough and wouldn't want (oh say as for example) them to go to a different version of the rules, but it doesn't kill me if they don't implement 5 foot step (to pick something completely at random). The 'Real Time' engine makes certain things undoable and there are some things that just make sense from a computer game perspective.

    I am not a purist. Just saying that so long as the spirit is observed and the rules set isn't altered, '
    good enough' is good enough for me.
  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,438
    I TINK DAT DERE should be more P&P elements. For example, expanded multi-class options and dual class rules.
    That is all.

    SCARY_WIZARD, Christmas is ruined because of your incessant "durr multi-class options!" nonsense.
  • FrecheFreche Member Posts: 473
    Fun gameplay is what is important.
    If that is achieved by strictly following the PnP rules or not doesn't matter.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    @the_spyder, that's more-or-less the idea I had in mind with the Somewhat option. Obviously you're allowed to answer or not answer however you'd like, but to my mind at least the Somewhat option seems to adequately reflect what you're saying. :)
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    It depends. You always lose something when adapting to a different medium. You should try to be as accurate as possible while actually getting it to work.
  • BattlehamsterBattlehamster Member Posts: 298
    Its not bad for a framework, but at the end of the day you can only take immersion so far with a computer and a fixed plot as opposed to a fully free range of imagination which allows improvisation.
  • Night_WatchNight_Watch Member Posts: 514
    i don't mind if they shoehorn some of the PnP rules to make a video game. so long they keep PnP as a base w/o having to gut and skin it too much a little variety and creativity with the rules is all well in good. besides, PnP rules are just guidebooks. it's not like they're set in stone =)
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    edited September 2013
    There's certain inherent limitations to a video game that make a carbon-copy of PnP undesirable or downright impossible. Scripted "AI", for example, or the more rapid, fluid pacing (among others) change the way the game works in a non-trivial matter. While PnP is a good basis for the rules layout, I believe that the gaming experience should not be compromised too much. After all, many people who play this game have never actually played PnP.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    @Anduin, no fair biasing the poll. :P
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    edited September 2013
    Just like to add Fighter / Mage / Thief Gnomes kitted to wildmage is a totally legit class... No class is more PnP legit.

    Gnomes are entitled to it after the Hasburg ruling on Gnome rights, that, beings of diminutive stature, being entitled to equal opportunity in the work place. That all workplaces must provide a padded cushion. That giving a fishing rod to a Gnome is seen as offensive, unless they are going to fish. That the enforcement of the wearing of red hats to show Gnomehood is abolished (although Gnomes who wish to show membership to a communist party are still allowed to wear one) and most importantly Gnomes who have there cheeks pinched or forced to moon (the revealing of buttocks) are to be protected against sexual predetation to the full extent of the law... Sad pictures like these must be left in the sordid past...

    image

    These rules are fully kept by BG. Long may its blessed liberalism and peacful cohabitation of all creatures large and diminutive in a non insulting way, continue
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    I can think of two great PnP examples which would really enrichen BG:EE and BG2:EE:

    - One of them would be the accurate utilization of the specialist mages. Not as kits, but as a selectable mage ability which could be implemented in a similar fashion to the ranger's racial enemy ability. That way, the arcane schools wouldn't waste the valuable wizard kit slots.

    - Another element of PnP I'd love to see is the implementation of the druidic branches (arctic druids, forest druids, gray druids, mountain druids, ect.). No doubtly the ability to choose a branch would make druid characters so much more interesting to play. Gotta love the ooze controlling ability of the gray druid! :3

    - The introduction of the whole divine sphere system wouldn't hurt either. But luckily this was already covered by the Divine Remix and Faiths of Faerûn Kitpack mods.
  • GodGod Member Posts: 1,150
    As I stated many times before, I'd very much like to play a variation of BG that would follow the rules and curious ritualistic practices of D&D in greater detail and, more importantly, be less imaginative about the interpretation of certain issues. I do like the good old vanilla BG as it initially was released, probably mostly for sentimental reasons, but I just can't deny that a vast number of things could have been done better. And if it could not be done better at the time, it certainly can be done now.
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    To all those who disagree...

    image
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    @Shandyr, that's an interesting line of reasoning. I, too, have played PnP for years (17 of them to be precise, which is pretty significant for a 23-year-old). But personally, I don't think it's the rules that make the PnP game great. I think it's having a bunch of friends around a table strategizing and scheming and laughing and horsing around, and sometimes it's having a DM to sit behind the screen and just grin evilly at you. I don't think it would ever, under any circumstances, be possible to reproduce half the fun of that in a single-player game. I don't think we're anywhere near being able to do it in a multiplayer game, either, since half the fun is coming up with crazy ideas that no one's ever thought of before.

    Just my opinion, of course. I'm not really trying to prove anything so much as see what people think. But that doesn't mean I'm not opinionated. :P
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    Due to CRPGs taking a lot of the annoying factors out of PnP, even if properly implemented it could be picked up quickly by novices.

    The vancian magic system, and inconsistent terminology with regard to describing + or - as good or bad are still issues even in it's current implementation. And you'd still have to read spell descriptions and understand the basic terminology, which are current issues with new players anyway.

    And if the game were implemented as close to PnP as the infinity engine possibly allows, the overall experience actually wouldn't change that much.

    Spell-casters would be the most affected, due to having their License to Game-break-without-restriction revoked, but non-casters wouldn't see any real change from now.

    Only people who had played the original would notice the changes, and even then, it would still be fairly minor, since all PnP would do is remove a lot of the overkill currently inherent to several classes, or remove the clear superiority (or gross inferiority, (*cough*ws*cough*)) of certain kits over others in the same class, as well as allowing the vanilla version of each class to remain relevant and useful outside of dual/MCs.

    The game would also remain challenging for much longer without mods, since there wouldn't be any easy outs as there are now.

    Now, that said I actually wouldn't mind some of BG's conveniences remain, but limit them to lower difficulties (changing it so difficulty is selected on game start and can't be changed), with higher difficulties bringing the mechanics closer to PnP. (Easy (basically being the current normal, can move stat-points around during creation, making some spells work differently (raise dead not lowering the target's Con by 1, NPP lasting it's full duration instead of for 1 charge), Normal (Core with all possible PnP rules as close as possible (rolls all stats at once and can't move points around)), Hardcore (Same as Core, but doesn't allow reloading. Only allows Save on exit, and the file is deleted after being resumed)).
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    CRPGs are a very different beast to PnP. Baldur's gate streamlines combat into brief, frantic bursts that would take a significant amount of time to play with PnP, and allows you to make a limited dialogue choice in seconds that would be pored over and discussed with a PnP group.

    It's more limited, more linear, and infinitely quicker, even using similar rulesets. I would say that improving the gameplay experience through more dialogue options, multiple ways to complete quests and ease-of-use & UI improvement is more important than PnP accuracy.
  • FrozenDervishFrozenDervish Member Posts: 295
    Accuracy is not needed and would detract from my enjoyment of the game. The fact that it is such a hard liner from some people is galling to say the least especially when they want the game to be tailor-made to themselves and say screw all when it would detract from what others found enjoyable. This saying when the current devs of the game have and still continue making the game as open to modding as possible to satisfy these people.
  • MathmickMathmick Member Posts: 326
    I've said it before: Baldur's Gate should be regarded as its own game and you should always remove mechanics from the rules that simply do not fit or make the gameplay worse overall.
    This is not to say that D&D rules are necessarily bad, but they were specifically designed for a tabletop experience and many of these mechanics for a computer game as-implemented are either awkward (e.g. 6-second rule), unsuitable for the game (e.g. random dice rolls only feel good when you roll dice), or are sometimes just bad (e.g. save/die abilities).
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    I think you have to go all out (kind of like that Temple of Elemental Evil game) PnP rules or none at all (Diablo). Baldur's Gate straddles the line between the two, and I would rather they fully commit to the PnP style. The pause options allow for more of a PnP feel.
  • mylegbigmylegbig Member Posts: 292
    Somewhere between this and the third choice actually. I've never played PnP so don't really care at all about it. But BG is largely based on it and I would like to remain mostly as it is.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    The nature of a game is defined by its rules, and I like the idea of BG (and other IE games) being approximately AD&D. When there's a choice of workable options either to do something the AD&D way or some other way, then in general I say do it the AD&D way. However, as others have said, PnP isn't the same as a computer, and there are plenty of things which work much better on a computer if they're done differently from the PnP way. I wouldn't support force-fitting unsuitable PnP features into the computer environment.

    On the whole, within the limits of what was achievable in the 1990s, I think original BG did a fairly good job of implementing AD&D - it's not quite the same thing (and it shouldn't be quite the same thing), but it seems to me to have captured the right flavour. Those historical choices define what BG is, so I wouldn't now want the game arbitrarily changed merely to make it more AD&D-compliant - the devs should only make such changes where there's a gameplay-enhancement being introduced, and that's when I'd want the devs to favour AD&D-compliance.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited September 2013
    Every game pretty much uses random dice rolls, they just don't call it that. Unless it's a truly skill based game, with no accuracy stat or something similar, you are going to be rolling dice, whether they call it that or not.


    The problem is, BG's interpretation of the rules is just plain bad. They utterly destroyed druid and bards with no compensation, giving mages and fighters all the cards with no penalties and a bunch of extra buffs due to monty haul or grossly overpower items/abilities/spells, eliminating any need for anything else.


    Even a hardcore PnP supporter like myself will admit, some things just won't work, but there is absolutely no reason, none, that the mechanics that CAN be implemented properly not be so.

    And a lot of stuff that beyond the basics that doesn't seem implementable by raw, can be done via scripting, without having to change the interface extensively, though might require tweaking of a few abilities.

    PnP Kensai

    Benefits -

    -2 AC

    +1 hit/damage/speed per 3 levels with chosen weapon type. Melee weapons in ranged mode are not affected. (Affect entries for weapon type effected are blank, their values are set later when the character picks his weapon type)

    Kai once per day per level. Your next attack strikes for maximum damage. Ability has no effect unless their chosen weapon is actively equipped.

    16+: Mortal Strike once per day. On next attack, if the target has fewer HD then the Kensai, it is instantly slain, no save. Some creatures types or targets with more then 200 hp are immune to this effect. Requires chosen weapon actively equipped or the ability fails.

    (Must buy proficiency in at least 1 weapon type at creation)

    Penalties -
    Cannot wear body armor, shields or helms.
    Cannot used ranged weapons without a melee component.
    Cannot go beyond proficiency in weapons (styles unaffected), and has 1 less proficiency point at creation.

    (unlike the current Kensai, gauntlets and even bracers of armor are allowed)

    When starting a new game, if the character doesn't already have the chosen weapon affect (as opposed to just a flag, so it persists between imports), he is given a choice of all weapons he currently has proficiency in. This chosen weapon is boosted to Specialization (**) and all of their class benefits only apply to attacks by this weapon type.) If the character does have chosen weapon affect, a flag is triggered to prevent the game from having to re-scan the character every round.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    I like most of the core mechanics of D&D, the hit rolls, saving throws, armor class, damage dice, etc. I don't much care how accurate those are to any particular edition. I agree with @ZanathKariashi that numbers and bonuses that can be translated into the game most certainly should be implemented. No class should be gimped in the CRPG because its PnP abilities may or may not function. Give it new or similar abilities to compensate.
  • MathmickMathmick Member Posts: 326
    The main thing I don't like about to-hit rolls and saving throws in this game is that the core gameplay is so dependent on your success in those rolls. Compare this to a game like League of Legends where you always hit but have a critical chance attribute that can improve your damage, or to a game like FTL:Faster than Light where randomness is a risk that you can choose to take. In Baldur's Gate you are forced to assume you will get nothing from attacking an enemy, with a chance to get something out of it. This just feels really bad and it can be frustrating knowing that you aren't going to get at least something.

    Randomness is hardly a bad thing when done right. It adds a lot of variety and flavour to an experience. However, when core mechanics of the game are dependent on the binary success of randomness, failing in these cases only adds to frustration. This is especially present in Baldur's Gate where a single bad roll can have a significant chunk of your party stunned (or equivalent) for an amount of time measured in minutes.

    Every game pretty much uses random dice rolls, they just don't call it that. Unless it's a truly skill based game, with no accuracy stat or something similar, you are going to be rolling dice, whether they call it that or not.

    What's wrong with having a more skill-based game? At least in that way the player can be certain that their failure was due to their strategy being incorrect rather than it just being bad luck.
  • blackchimesblackchimes Member Posts: 323
    I voted "somewhat" because while I'm all for PnP "improvements" they should be an optional component or a semi-official mod.

    Most people bought BG:EE for the nostalgia factor, and they want to play BG as they remember it. PnP-faithful BG would be a quite different game alltogether.
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