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Tweaking the Thieves (Shadowdancer, Assassin, Bounty Hunter, and Thief)

DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
edited November 2013 in General Modding
The v1.2.0 patch modifies the Shadowdancer kit rather significantly; as a result, there has been some discussion about whether we've gone from one end of the spectrum (too powerful) to the other (too weak). I'm reserving judgment, but in an effort to get a little more information, I've made this little override pack. The pack affects the Thief, as well as the Shadowdancer, Assassin, and Bounty Hunter kits.

Just extract to your override. The changes will only work with v1.2 or later.

Thief:
All I've done is applied an additional multiplier boost at level 17. The Bounty Hunter follows the same progression.
Backstab progression changed:
- Level 1-4: x2
- Level 5-8: x3
- Level 9-12: x4
- Level 13-16: x5
- Level 17+: x6
Shadowdancer:
The Shadowdancer now follows the same progression as the Thief, but at -1 multiplier.
Backstab progression changed:
- Level 1-4: x1
- Level 5-8: x2
- Level 9-12: x3
- Level 13-16: x4
- Level 17+: x5
Assassin:
The Assassin now follows the same progression as the Thief, but at +1 multiplier. Because this makes the Assassin a bit of a power house at level 1, the Poison Weapon ability has been moved from level 1 to level 7.
Backstab progression changed:
- Level 1-4: x3
- Level 5-8: x4
- Level 9-12: x5
- Level 13-16: x6
- Level 17+: x7
Poison Weapon received at level 7 instead of level 1 (starts at level 7 with one use)
(obligatory tagging for @Infiltrator, @enneract, and @Aranthys)
Post edited by Dee on
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Comments

  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    I haven't tried this yet, but I kind of feel that its a bit off giving the Assassin only a +1 increase in BS multiplier while retaining their limited Thief points. Part of the tradeoff for the 15 rather than 25 points was that they ended up with a x7 rather than a x5. Upping the standard Thief to x6 naturally seems to reduce the Assassin's specialisation in my mind, especially since they also end up with 1 less use of Poison Weapon.
    MortiannaJuliusBorisovCrevsDaakPhyrax
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Well, remember also that the assassin gets +1 to THAC0 and damage, and now *starts* with the increased multiplier.
    semiticgoddess
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    That is true, its just that having taken an assassin through BGEE I've generally found Poison Weapon to be especially useful, probably more-so even than the backstab.

    That said, getting x7 at level 17 might balance things out seeing as it is actually still useful at that point.

    I will try it out, for sure, and give more detailed feedback later.
    Dee
  • FrozenCellsFrozenCells Member Posts: 385
    Interesting tweaks. What kind of information are you looking for @Dee ? If it's to accommodate a better SD while keeping relative power/utility balance between the kits then it looks on paper pretty good. Assassin might end up being the best backstabber until late SoA rather than playing second fiddle to a multi F/T. I think that's good.
  • ValdemarValdemar Member Posts: 41
    I think this is a good idea. Thanks, Dee.
    Edvin
  • qwert_44643qwert_44643 Member Posts: 311
    Is this tweaking actual d&d rules?
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    The Shadowdancer and Assassin kits didn't exist in 2e rules.

    The extended backstab progression for the Thief is a little beyond what PnP does.
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    edited October 2013
    Dee said:

    The Shadowdancer and Assassin kits didn't exist in 2e rules.

    The extended backstab progression for the Thief is a little beyond what PnP does.

    Technically the Assassin kit does exist. It is a primarily combat and poison-focused thief kit which suffers a skill points penalty as a result. It is in the Complete Book of Thieves. I am not sure if the extended backstab multiplier is from 2e, though.

    It also has required minimum stats of 12 Strength, 12 Dex and 11 Int.
    JuliusBorisovCrevsDaakAdso
  • qwert_44643qwert_44643 Member Posts: 311
    thanks guys...i know i played a shadow dancer in neverwinter nights and it was my favorite...maybe use that one as a guide line...
  • enneractenneract Member Posts: 187
    edited October 2013
    This is perfect, seriously.

    Assassin's x7 bonus is mostly worthless in TOB, and this shifts it to an earlier part of the game where it is still useful.

    It is also much more logical and consistent.

    @Dee, Here is a WeiDu version. The only liberty I took to regularize the poison weapon ability, granting it once at lvl 7, and once every 4 levels thereafter. Also updated descriptions.
    Post edited by enneract on
    OlleDenStore
  • OlleDenStoreOlleDenStore Member Posts: 43
    What about the poor swashbuckler? Shouldn't it get some love too? :)
  • enneractenneract Member Posts: 187

    What about the poor swashbuckler? Shouldn't it get some love too? :)

    This is mostly about backstab progression and how bizaare it is normally. Swashbuckler doesn't backstab.

  • qwert_44643qwert_44643 Member Posts: 311
    edited October 2013
    do you have to start a new game cause im level 5 and i dont know if im getting the bonuses...and what do you need to run the weidu version/
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    edited October 2013
    The backstab multipliers will take effect as soon as you load your game; the assassin changes won't take effect until you start a new game (more or less).
  • qwert_44643qwert_44643 Member Posts: 311
    im a level 5 shadowdancer how do you know if your getting successfull back stabs?
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    I believe it should state your backstab multiplier in your character information on the Record sheet.
  • And when you successfully backstab there's usually something that pops up in the message log saying "Backstab - double damage" or something to that effect.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    You can check in one of two ways:

    First, you can go to the Record screen and look at the Statistics pane; your Backstab multiplier is listed in one of the first blocks.

    The other way is to just try and backstab someone. If it says "Backstab Double Damage", the multiplier is being applied.

    Bear in mind that you have to be standing behind someone and hidden or invisible in order to get the successful backstab.
  • qwert_44643qwert_44643 Member Posts: 311
    in my character record sheet it says backstab x1
  • qwert_44643qwert_44643 Member Posts: 311
    i put the 2 files into the override..was that right?
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Make sure you extract the files to the correct folder; it should be Program Files\Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition Beta\Data\00547\override\

    You can also drop them into Documents\Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition\override\ if that's simpler.
    alnair
  • enneractenneract Member Posts: 187
    edited October 2013

    do you have to start a new game cause im level 5 and i dont know if im getting the bonuses...and what do you need to run the weidu version/

    You don't need anything. You unzip it in your game's directory (it should be the directory that contains CHITIN.KEY), and run setup-ThiefTweaks.exe, like any other weidu mod. There are instructions on how to install weidu mods on apple computers, if that is what you have, but that is outside the scope of my experience.

    As for what will apply to existing characters... Kits that add *abilities* (THAC0/Damage bonuses, spells under the special abilities button, etc), only apply it once, and won't retroactively apply those bonuses. Backstab multiplier is special, though, and will apply to existing characters.
  • enneractenneract Member Posts: 187
    Dee said:


    You can also drop them into Documents\Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition\override\ if that's simpler.

    Whoa, really? Which override takes priority?
  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    edited October 2013
    This iteration of the shadowdancer would finally allow a stealth-based thief to stay viable in the midst of combat. If there's a concern that the frequent backstabs make the class too strong, consider perhaps whether the dps matches, say, an unkitted fighter of comparable experience. If it does, maybe try taking away or limiting more of the shadowdancer's non-stealth abilities so that the class is a little more limited in scope and the player might have to consider running a 2nd thief in the party. That, or just increase the length of the HiPS cooldown.

    I know you folks generally didn't have a combat-focused role in mind for the shadowdancer, but I've always avoided playing thieves because - aside from that first backstab - they're just not very interesting or reliable in a fight. I know there's a lot more to BG than fighting, but having a thief that can disappear, damage, and disorient his foes in combat sounds a lot more fun than a weaker thief designed for scouting (which is what the unkitted thief already does and does well).

    But that's just my preference. Thanks for providing this override pack so that those playing the beta can provide better feedback :)
    enneract
  • BasillicumBasillicum Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 400
    Wow, these are quite powerful. I'm surprised the Shadowdancer gets as far as x5.
    enneractMortiannaJuliusBorisovleeho730
  • qwert_44643qwert_44643 Member Posts: 311
    edited October 2013
    i put it in program files(86)/baldurs gate enhanced edition/data/00766/override.
    i dont have an override in my documents location you told me about.

  • qwert_44643qwert_44643 Member Posts: 311
    edited October 2013
    i cant find my beta installation...just the baldurs gate enhanced edition installment
    im using the beamdog client launcher...
    yeah i cant find the beta installation....im on windows 7 64bit
    can someone help me?
  • qwert_44643qwert_44643 Member Posts: 311
    i found my beta location it was:
    beamdog/games/00764/override....there was no override folder there so i created one and put the 2 files in and now its working...is it bad that i created an override folder?
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Not at all. :)
    qwert_44643semiticgoddess
  • qwert_44643qwert_44643 Member Posts: 311
    when the patch comes out do i have to clean the override folder out?
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