I did play a wizard slayer once regardless of my vote, but I dualed him to thief at quite a high level so I got all the fighter benefits and with the thief HLA that allows you to use any equipment he was completely overpowered. I equipped him with Carsomyr and just ripped through everything.
I kind of feel that both an inquisitor and a monk do a better job of being a wizard slayer.
At the moment, the only interesting thing about the wizard slayer is the restrictions he has, not the benefits he brings. Sort of like a handicap to mix things up.
I would like to note that the wizard slayers miscast magic on hit applies, even if your weapon does no damage. So you might not be breaking threw stone skin but your still shutting down the spell casting. But giving up on all rings, amulets, capes, and most potions is just to steep of a price to pay.
According to the defenders of the WS class, that dispel-on-hit procs whether any damage is done or not. That is, it procs when a mirror image is hit, when a stoneskin is hit, and on a hit against a PfMW. If true, that makes it a little more useful than the detractors of the class make it out to be, because it is going to proc and bring down defenses like mirror image, stoneskin, and PfMW much faster, often quicker than a Breach spell can be cast, while preventing the mage from casting any offensive spells.
Whether that makes it worth sacrificing magic items and the benefits of a berserker kit is another matter, though.
I would like to note that the wizard slayers miscast magic on hit applies, even if your weapon does no damage. So you might not be breaking threw stone skin but your still shutting down the spell casting.
Keep in mind that this only applies to things like Stoneskin, where you actually *hit* the mage. Things like Protection from Magic Weapons, Mantle, etc. where your weapon doesn't actually hit (= "Weapon ineffective") will prevent the application of the failure. Also, you can just use weapons with elemental damage on them to get through Stoneskin and interrupt spells...
I've never heard it working any differently, and have heard corroborating stories from many people that it does indeed work the way I described. I can't speak to personal experience, true enough, as I never run WSs.
I just tried by taking a wizard slayer and a sorcerer into the black pits, and it seems that stoneskin and mirror image do not protect against the miscast, but protection from normal weapons (and I assume other `weapon ineffective' s) does.
@magpie Yes the miscast magic debuff always works unless there's a weapon has no effect message.
The debuff is applied on a 'hit roll' so actual damage is not needed.
Anyway with protection from normal weapons use a magic weapon and vice versa. If mages cast mantle use a magic weapon +3 for normal +4 for improved.
Wizard slayers are quite powerful really, especially when they get 3 to 4 apr and boots of speed. Mages are usually useless before they get their second spell off. And the magic resistance helps to survive those first rounds.
Magic resistance could be higher, but if you get a bit of resistance on the items you can use, you'll still get a decent amount.
I do get a bit bored due the lack of shinies. But in turn you can pimp your party more than usual. I like dualing my wizard slayer into a thief, not so much for the UAI cheese but the find illusion and stealth do make me feel a bit like a 'wizard assassin'. Especially with SCS and prebuffed mages.
edit: also if you do use uai and get carsomyr...... well nuff said really.
One of my Black Pits characters, the dwarf, is a Wizard Slayer come to think of it. I was going for just a plain fighter to fill that party slot with something to take damage and Wizard Slayer saves me micro-managing as much equipment. I'm not sure how wise a choice it is in the long run, but I rarely bother playing Black Pits for all that long anyway.
@Joey: Thanks for this thread. I think we really need to keep the discussion open! The majority of people seem to agree that the no-gear restriction of the kit just isn't worth the low magic resistance and miscast magic effect. And everyone always seems to be joking that the Inquisitor serves the same purpose, but is superior.
Well to be fair, the vanilla fighter's "perk" was supposed to be exclusive access to Mastery and above, where as most other kits are capped at specialization (except the Kensai who is capped at proficiency and only gets a single weapon proficiency point (all the rest are converted into NCP, even those gained from other classes, though proficiency spent before becoming a kensai are lost, in the case of an X>Kensai dual), but acts as if specialized when using their chosen weapon). And rangers/paladin/Mutli-fighters/X>Fighter duals aren't supposed to get specialization at all.
And love'em or hate'em the lack of combat maneuvers makes fighters a lot less interesting to play, since you'd at least have a button to click to attempt a grapple, trip, charge, bullrush, disarm, called-shot, parry.
And no matter which version of the PnP wizard slayer you go by, the BG version is horribly gimped. It sort of resembles the Spellbound Wizard slayer (gains MR (though VERY gimped) and causes a spell failure chance on hit (no save and stacks, but is smaller amount), but lacks basically all the actual benefits while keeping a large chunk of the penalties).
Well to be fair, the vanilla fighter's "perk" was supposed to be exclusive access to Mastery and above, where as most other kits are capped at specialization (except the Kensai who is capped at proficiency and only gets a single weapon proficiency point (all the rest are converted into NCP, even those gained from other classes, though proficiency spent before becoming a kensai are lost, in the case of an X>Kensai dual), but acts as if specialized when using their chosen weapon). And rangers/paladin/Mutli-fighters/X>Fighter duals aren't supposed to get specialization at all.
And love'em or hate'em the lack of combat maneuvers makes fighters a lot less interesting to play, since you'd at least have a button to click to attempt a grapple, trip, charge, bullrush, disarm, called-shot, parry.
And no matter which version of the PnP wizard slayer you go by, the BG version is horribly gimped. It sort of resembles the Spellbound Wizard slayer (gains MR (though VERY gimped) and causes a spell failure chance on hit (no save and stacks, but is smaller amount), but lacks basically all the actual benefits while keeping a large chunk of the penalties).
I should have made it clear in the OP that I'm not interested in PnP, but thanks for your contribution.
I've always wanted to try a WS->Thief. With belm, scarlet ninja to and IH it seems like it would shut down any mage instantly.
It would either outright kill the mage (provided you get to hit it), or it wouldn't do anything (if you're not hitting it). In the former case, any other fighters would simply be better, in the latter, being a WS doesn't do anything.
Literally the only situation where a WS is remotely useful is against someone using exclusively Stoneskin and Mirror Image to defend, not any of the other spells. I guess that happens in unmodded games somewhat, but with SCS (which should really be standard anyway) it's just pretty much never the case. The only enemies I can think of you can hit with WS even in SCS are dragons, but their dangerous abilities are breaths and their heavy melee attacks, not spells.
Now I do play as a wizard slayer (unmodded version of the kit) solo because I want to go through one of the most difficult challenges in the game.
It gives me new emotions and makes me think about methods previosly not used before, for example, using different kinds of arrows - dispelling, magical, biting, detonation - and bolts - biting, lighting etc.
I just don't ever really pick fighters or fighter kits for CHARNAME. If feel like doing something fightery it'll be a fighter/something or a ranger or pally.
I don't usually play Wizard Slayers, but I feel the kit has been unfairly maligned.
Points in spoilers to avoid crowding up the thread:
1: People say the MR is meaningless, but it is indeed a benefit. MR helps, even if it's not much. They say a Potion of Magic Resistance is better, but if the WS can't use it, another party member will. They say certain items give more MR than WS levels, but it takes time and risk to attain those weapons, and once you do get a hold of them, you can still use them--you'll just be putting them on your cleric instead of your fighter. A WS and a cleric can get 30 MR between them, with the right items. An unkitted fighter and a cleric will get 20. The restrictions, of course, are much more severe in a solo run.
2: People say the spell failure on hit doesn't help because by the time you can hit the mage, it's already doomed. That's just not true. After a mage's weapon immunities are gone, the mage still has plenty of Stoneskins, which for a Wizard Slayer means the mage can expect to have maybe 50% spell failure by the time it casts its new PFMW spell. The spell failure might not bypass PFMW, but it can prevent PFMW from occurring. I've seen WS spell failure play decisive roles in SCS2, and since some SCS2 spells bypass spell failure, the effect is likely even stronger in vanilla.
3: People say elemental damage, like with the Flail of Ages is better at stopping spells. Well, the Wizard Slayer can use the Flail of Ages, and deal BOTH elemental damage and spell failure on hit.
4: People say Bala's Axe gives spell failure, too. Well, the Wizard Slayer can use Bala's Axe, and inflict that much more spell failure.
5: People say the item restrictions make the class useless. But most of a fighter's power comes from its weapons and armor, not a Ring of Protection +1, and the WS can still use magical weapons and armor. Rings and amulets give immunities and bonuses. So do weapons and armor. An unkitted fighter can use both, so the WS item restriction is indeed a major penalty, but the WS retains its most important function, which many people don't seem to appreciate.
6: Finally, the item restrictions don't prevent you from using magical items. They just shift those items to other characters. Your Charname might not be able to benefit from a Ring of Protection +1, but Minsc still can. They still weaken the Wizard Slayer, but it's not a total negation, and some people act like it is.
I am not saying the Wizard Kit is the best, or even that it's not the worst kit (I'd consider it the second worst, behind the Beastmaster kit). But the reality is that the kit is still very useful and offers some things that other kits can't match. And many people treat the Wizard Slayer like it's a hopelessly unplayable class, or that its benefits are meaningless.
After trying them out in several runs, and seeing the benefits and the drawbacks impact the game, I'm not sure I believe that the WS's strongest detractors have even played the kit all that much. I think the main reason people don't play the kit isn't any of these options--I think the reason is that they hear other people say "Wizard Slayers suck," and decide not to bother trying them out. It's a cycle:
-People hear that Wizard Slayers are weak, so they don't play them.
-People don't play them, so people don't know how to play them.
-People don't know how to play them, so they assume there is no upside to the kit.
I like magic items. They're part of what makes the game fun. Combine that with the fact that the Inquisitor is simply better than the WS at the WS's job, and I just don't see much reason to play one.
Of course, it'd be different if I'd come up with an interesting character concept that should be a Wizard Slayer, but so far that hasn't happened.
Magic resistance & beserk status are the only ways to become entirely invulnerable to the game's worst shit.
Miscast magic works through combat protections too and is a fairly awesome ability, especially if you open with a GWW (100% magic failure).
Sure you can buff the hell out of a kensai mage and get fairly impressive results but the only other class that can wade in with no preparation and start smacking things like wizard slayer is the monk.
All that said however... Inquisitor with carosmyr, ring of gaxx and seldarine amulet kinda does it better...
I kinda like the lore on wiz slayer however and it's interesting that Bioware kept the idea alive into later games such as Dragon Age (Templar).
(1) Inquisitors can dispel enemy protections, get true sight, and with Carmosyr have great magic resistance.
(2) Monks, upon lvl 14, have 74% MR, which only gets better with items. If you really want a wizard killer, have a dark moon monk who can see through illusions as well.
(3) A wizard slayer gets...comparable magic resistance, but likely at a lower level than everyone else. He'll get...what? 60% MR? 75% if he takes the right katana and shield at the end of the game. That is what a monk gets without any items at all. My monk was rocking 100% MR! Mages just can't touch that.
Sure, a wizard slayer can mess up a mage's magic when he hits...*IF* he hits. The only way he is hitting is if he gets through enemy illusions. There are two items that can help with that, which would let him get true sight twice a day. Both the inquisitors and dark moon monks get that standard.
Losing out on rings/cloaks/amulets is just too huge a blow when the wizard slayer isn't even the best at slaying wizards.
Now, if the wizard slayer got his advantages, and as a draw back could only specialize in weapons? Then I might consider him. He'd be trading some general offensive power for magic defense. Throw in true sight as well, and I'd play that class.
iirc wiz slayer ends on 98% natural MR last i consoled one to max level.
The only thing that mildly bothers him is, as you say, cleaving through mirror image (1 GWW will do the trick against a high level mage and before this you can just unload with a bow/ dual wielding).
The thing is though a mage is fairly powerless to do anything to him whilst he hacks away.
If someone could check that MR for me I'd appreciate it... I have console working for BGEE but nothing I do seems to make the bloody thing work for BG2EE
Comments
At the moment, the only interesting thing about the wizard slayer is the restrictions he has, not the benefits he brings. Sort of like a handicap to mix things up.
But giving up on all rings, amulets, capes, and most potions is just to steep of a price to pay.
Whether that makes it worth sacrificing magic items and the benefits of a berserker kit is another matter, though.
The debuff is applied on a 'hit roll' so actual damage is not needed.
Anyway with protection from normal weapons use a magic weapon and vice versa. If mages cast mantle use a magic weapon +3 for normal +4 for improved.
Wizard slayers are quite powerful really, especially when they get 3 to 4 apr and boots of speed. Mages are usually useless before they get their second spell off. And the magic resistance helps to survive those first rounds.
Magic resistance could be higher, but if you get a bit of resistance on the items you can use, you'll still get a decent amount.
I do get a bit bored due the lack of shinies. But in turn you can pimp your party more than usual. I like dualing my wizard slayer into a thief, not so much for the UAI cheese but the find illusion and stealth do make me feel a bit like a 'wizard assassin'. Especially with SCS and prebuffed mages.
edit: also if you do use uai and get carsomyr...... well nuff said really.
Here's a link to my thread on saving the wizard slayer, also with a poll: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/22212/improve-the-wizard-slayer#latest
[I've now included a link to your thread as well]
And love'em or hate'em the lack of combat maneuvers makes fighters a lot less interesting to play, since you'd at least have a button to click to attempt a grapple, trip, charge, bullrush, disarm, called-shot, parry.
And no matter which version of the PnP wizard slayer you go by, the BG version is horribly gimped. It sort of resembles the Spellbound Wizard slayer (gains MR (though VERY gimped) and causes a spell failure chance on hit (no save and stacks, but is smaller amount), but lacks basically all the actual benefits while keeping a large chunk of the penalties).
Literally the only situation where a WS is remotely useful is against someone using exclusively Stoneskin and Mirror Image to defend, not any of the other spells. I guess that happens in unmodded games somewhat, but with SCS (which should really be standard anyway) it's just pretty much never the case. The only enemies I can think of you can hit with WS even in SCS are dragons, but their dangerous abilities are breaths and their heavy melee attacks, not spells.
BEAMDOG Y U HATE WIZARD SLAYER!!
It gives me new emotions and makes me think about methods previosly not used before, for example, using different kinds of arrows - dispelling, magical, biting, detonation - and bolts - biting, lighting etc.
If feel like doing something fightery it'll be a fighter/something or a ranger or pally.
Points in spoilers to avoid crowding up the thread:
1: People say the MR is meaningless, but it is indeed a benefit. MR helps, even if it's not much. They say a Potion of Magic Resistance is better, but if the WS can't use it, another party member will. They say certain items give more MR than WS levels, but it takes time and risk to attain those weapons, and once you do get a hold of them, you can still use them--you'll just be putting them on your cleric instead of your fighter. A WS and a cleric can get 30 MR between them, with the right items. An unkitted fighter and a cleric will get 20. The restrictions, of course, are much more severe in a solo run.
2: People say the spell failure on hit doesn't help because by the time you can hit the mage, it's already doomed. That's just not true. After a mage's weapon immunities are gone, the mage still has plenty of Stoneskins, which for a Wizard Slayer means the mage can expect to have maybe 50% spell failure by the time it casts its new PFMW spell. The spell failure might not bypass PFMW, but it can prevent PFMW from occurring. I've seen WS spell failure play decisive roles in SCS2, and since some SCS2 spells bypass spell failure, the effect is likely even stronger in vanilla.
3: People say elemental damage, like with the Flail of Ages is better at stopping spells. Well, the Wizard Slayer can use the Flail of Ages, and deal BOTH elemental damage and spell failure on hit.
4: People say Bala's Axe gives spell failure, too. Well, the Wizard Slayer can use Bala's Axe, and inflict that much more spell failure.
5: People say the item restrictions make the class useless. But most of a fighter's power comes from its weapons and armor, not a Ring of Protection +1, and the WS can still use magical weapons and armor. Rings and amulets give immunities and bonuses. So do weapons and armor. An unkitted fighter can use both, so the WS item restriction is indeed a major penalty, but the WS retains its most important function, which many people don't seem to appreciate.
6: Finally, the item restrictions don't prevent you from using magical items. They just shift those items to other characters. Your Charname might not be able to benefit from a Ring of Protection +1, but Minsc still can. They still weaken the Wizard Slayer, but it's not a total negation, and some people act like it is.
I am not saying the Wizard Kit is the best, or even that it's not the worst kit (I'd consider it the second worst, behind the Beastmaster kit). But the reality is that the kit is still very useful and offers some things that other kits can't match. And many people treat the Wizard Slayer like it's a hopelessly unplayable class, or that its benefits are meaningless.
After trying them out in several runs, and seeing the benefits and the drawbacks impact the game, I'm not sure I believe that the WS's strongest detractors have even played the kit all that much. I think the main reason people don't play the kit isn't any of these options--I think the reason is that they hear other people say "Wizard Slayers suck," and decide not to bother trying them out. It's a cycle:
-People hear that Wizard Slayers are weak, so they don't play them.
-People don't play them, so people don't know how to play them.
-People don't know how to play them, so they assume there is no upside to the kit.
Of course, it'd be different if I'd come up with an interesting character concept that should be a Wizard Slayer, but so far that hasn't happened.
Miscast magic works through combat protections too and is a fairly awesome ability, especially if you open with a GWW (100% magic failure).
Sure you can buff the hell out of a kensai mage and get fairly impressive results but the only other class that can wade in with no preparation and start smacking things like wizard slayer is the monk.
All that said however... Inquisitor with carosmyr, ring of gaxx and seldarine amulet kinda does it better...
I kinda like the lore on wiz slayer however and it's interesting that Bioware kept the idea alive into later games such as Dragon Age (Templar).
Genius thread lol!
(1) Inquisitors can dispel enemy protections, get true sight, and with Carmosyr have great magic resistance.
(2) Monks, upon lvl 14, have 74% MR, which only gets better with items. If you really want a wizard killer, have a dark moon monk who can see through illusions as well.
(3) A wizard slayer gets...comparable magic resistance, but likely at a lower level than everyone else. He'll get...what? 60% MR? 75% if he takes the right katana and shield at the end of the game. That is what a monk gets without any items at all. My monk was rocking 100% MR! Mages just can't touch that.
Sure, a wizard slayer can mess up a mage's magic when he hits...*IF* he hits. The only way he is hitting is if he gets through enemy illusions. There are two items that can help with that, which would let him get true sight twice a day. Both the inquisitors and dark moon monks get that standard.
Losing out on rings/cloaks/amulets is just too huge a blow when the wizard slayer isn't even the best at slaying wizards.
Now, if the wizard slayer got his advantages, and as a draw back could only specialize in weapons? Then I might consider him. He'd be trading some general offensive power for magic defense. Throw in true sight as well, and I'd play that class.
The only thing that mildly bothers him is, as you say, cleaving through mirror image (1 GWW will do the trick against a high level mage and before this you can just unload with a bow/ dual wielding).
The thing is though a mage is fairly powerless to do anything to him whilst he hacks away.