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Why is Hexxat evil exactly?

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  • LoubLoub Member Posts: 471
    edited February 2014
    Heindrich said:


    As someone once told me: "Even Hitler loved his children"
    .
    .
    .
    If I punch you then hug my mom, punching you was still wrong

    1) Hitler had no children.

    2) Depends on who I pointed at.
    As a matter of fact, Hitler did indeed have children. He just killed all of them when he and his wife commited suicide.
    EEdit: Actually, no he didn't. Must have confused him with someone else. He was a thoroughly celibate man, which is one more reason to disregard so called "sexual purity".

  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    Heindrich said:


    As someone once told me: "Even Hitler loved his children"
    .
    .
    .
    If I punch you then hug my mom, punching you was still wrong

    1) Hitler had no children.
    phew... now I know I wasn't adopted! :O

  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    Loub said:

    Heindrich said:


    As someone once told me: "Even Hitler loved his children"
    .
    .
    .
    If I punch you then hug my mom, punching you was still wrong

    1) Hitler had no children.

    2) Depends on who I pointed at.
    As a matter of fact, Hitler did indeed have children. He just killed all of them when he and his wife commited suicide.
    EEdit: Actually, no he didn't. Must have confused him with someone else. He was a thoroughly celibate man, which is one more reason to disregard so called "sexual purity".
    you were thinking of Joseph Goebbels

    jackjackLoub
  • ZalsonZalson Member Posts: 103
    Isn't this discussion over because of Godwin's law?

    On the not-tongue-in-cheek side of things, I mostly agree with @WebShaman. A good DM tells a player when they're changing alignment and a long long argument usually results, which derails all play for that session.

    Which is I guess what this thread is?

    WebShamanbooinyoureyes
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 483
    Gotta like your input @Zalson. First of all, yeah - Godwin's Law pretty much dictates this thread is through. And also yeah, I can remember many a PnP Session as DM where Alignment was...discussed. >.<

    The pizza got cold.

    And that is always bad.

    It was during a particularly nasty session with a few Psych Majors that as DM I came to the sudden realization that the only way to really include Alignment in any D&D game, was to consider it only in that setting - that one cannot use real world examples to try to justify any of the Alignment "issues" in the game.

    After that, I have rarely have a problem discussing Alignment now. One just needs to keep it in perspective - Alignment only exists as a game mechanic in the D&D game. It is not a "real" thing, and as such, has no comparison in the real world.

    I mean, when was the last time you cast Detect Evil, hmmm?

    In the real world, there is so much subjective-ness as to what is what (morality-wise)

    In the D&D world, things are set in stone - and are defined and measured and applied (alignment-wise).

    It is rather strange, but because it doesn't seem so cut-and-dried like a math equation of 1+1=2, we often have debates about it due to difference of opinion as to how the rules are interpreted.

    Heck, we still have debates largely based on math - see best weapons threads for details.

    To wrap things up - yeah, Godwin's Law has been invoked. This thread is done.

    BelgarathMTH
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,419
    edited February 2014
    Not being offensive but you people are making such a huge deal out of the morals of a vampire.
    Sarevok is Chaotic Evil because he's a selfish, self-proclaimed "new Lord of Murder" (in BG1), murdering, deceiving mofo that planned mass-genocide just so he could become a god.

    Hexxat is Neutral Evil because she's a Vampire. Yes, simple as that. If you're turned into an undead, then by the rules you become automatically and instantly evil.
    You were a Paladin that became a vampire against your will? Instant fall and down into the Lawful Evil area you go.

    A good example is Durkon (Lawful Good Dwarf Cleric) from the Order of the Stick webcomic.
    He got turned into a vampire against his will and when he awakaned, he was Lawful Evil.
    No "I'm a vampire but I'm not evil". Leave that to Twillight.

    Undead beings are powered by negative energy. There's nothing redeeming about them. Evil is not just something they chose, it's something they became and are physically, not just philosophically or morally.

    BelgarathMTH
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,248
    The 4th-wall-shattering answer is that we were all clamoring for an evil thief. And for good reason - Hexxat remains the only joinable evil NPC thief. The customer is always right, whether or not we acknowledge as such.
    I'm fairly certain I just contributed nothing to this discussion, but I'd like to think it's far from dead.
    Undead?
    I don't know.

    BelgarathMTHbooinyoureyes
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,419

    The real question is: is there a way to cure Hexxat's vampirism?

    To answer this question (since I'm late to the thread), there is no cure for vampirism because there's nothing to cure. It's not a disease. It's a transformation.

    The only "cure" for DnD Forgotten Realms vampirism is to destroy the vampire and then resurrect the person if it's willing. Similar to what you do with your loved one when they're taken by Bodhi.

    About her personality, she puts her Charisma to good use. Viconia might be Neutral Evil but her Charisma is crap compared.
    Dorn is more charismatic than Sarevok AND Viconia (if I remember right) and Hexxat has a Charisma of 20.
    To put it into more perspective, she's more Charismatic than Irenicus is Intelligent (19 Int, I think).

    booinyoureyes
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 483
    Archaos said:

    The real question is: is there a way to cure Hexxat's vampirism?

    To answer this question (since I'm late to the thread), there is no cure for vampirism because there's nothing to cure. It's not a disease. It's a transformation.

    The only "cure" for DnD Forgotten Realms vampirism is to destroy the vampire and then resurrect the person if it's willing. Similar to what you do with your loved one when they're taken by Bodhi.

    About her personality, she puts her Charisma to good use. Viconia might be Neutral Evil but her Charisma is crap compared.
    Dorn is more charismatic than Sarevok AND Viconia (if I remember right) and Hexxat has a Charisma of 20.
    To put it into more perspective, she's more Charismatic than Irenicus is Intelligent (19 Int, I think).
    Well, that pretty much sounds like a cure to me, doesn't it?

    I rather suspect that Hexxat doesn't trust anyone enough to be destroyed and then resurrected again. Thus, no cure for her.

    typo_tilly
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,419
    @WebShaman
    Well, it's like saying that to cure the evil from the world is to kill everyone and remake it.
    It's a cure in a sense but it's not really a cure.

    And it's probably a vicious cycle.
    When she became a vampire, she became evil or was locked into the evil alignment, since it's the nature of undead to be evil.
    So someone that is undead and evil, doesn't consider themselves as needing any healing.
    It's what they say, the insane don't admit to being insane.

    The only way for someone to "cured" from vampirism is to be forcibly destroyed and then resurrected.
    If the soul wants to return to a new body, then they will be "cured".

    booinyoureyestypo_tilly
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 483
    Now, wait a minute here.

    We do not know how Hexxat was before she became a Vampire, first of all. Her background is shrouded in mystery. She might have been evil from the start.

    And although it is the nature of the undead to be evil, intelligent Undead DO HAVE FREE WILL. This means that they can resist their evil nature.

    Case in point (oh, this is gonna hurt!) : the Baelnorn. An Undead Elven Lich. It is not evil, by nature.

    So, your point that Undead is automatically evil by the rules has exceptions.

    As for a cure for Vampirism - as I mentioned, and as has been demonstrated ingame : kill, resurrect. I am currently not aware of any other official cure - perhaps a few more learned individuals in regards to vampirism and FR lore could chime in here?

    Loub
  • LoubLoub Member Posts: 471
    @Archaos
    Your comment about Undeath=Evil is proven absolutely false by the existence of Baenorn Liches.
    Lawful Good elven wizards who were driven (gifted by the Seldarine, actually) to undeath to protect their legacy and knowledge, and serve as advisors and guardians to the elven people, who sought them as their last and most powerful line of defense short of the Seldarine.
    Also, aren't Ghosts technically bound by the alignments they belonged to in life?
    And what about the Telthor, who were dead worshippers of Bhalla, Diana, Khelliara and The Hidden One brought back to life as incorporeal fey to protect the borderland of Rashemen against those who would do it harm or try to exploit its very thin lines to the Feywild and Shadow?

  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,419
    edited February 2014
    @WebShaman @Loub
    True, I forgot to mention those. But those are the exceptions, not the rule. Baelnorn and Archliches.

    In the case of vampires, they're always evil by the rules, I think. At least in 3.5, but as far as I'm aware of also in ADnD.

    From the wiki article: "A vampire can be of any evil alignment, and if its alignment was not evil in life, it becomes so in undeath."
    And the 3.5E SRD:
    "Vampire Characters:

    Vampires are always evil, which causes characters of certain classes to lose some class abilities. In addition, certain classes take additional penalties."

    I was too absolute that undeath=evil, though in the case of vampires it's absolute and I'm not sure there are any exceptions, unlike Baelnorn and Archliches.
    And it makes sense that a creature that is animated by pure negative energy will be heavily disposed towards evil.

  • NonnahswriterNonnahswriter Member Posts: 2,520
    Huh. I always thought the Kill->Resurrect method only worked on your loved-one because they were only half-way through the transformation. Sort of like... They were under the mind-control, but not completely vampiric. And normal resurrection doesn't work, you have to take them specifically to Aumanator's shrine.

    Maybe Aumanator's just awesome.

    booinyoureyesjackjack
  • LoubLoub Member Posts: 471
    edited February 2014
    @Archaos
    The "always evil" rule is contradicted so frequently by authors and DMs alike that WotC once said (IIRC) that it doesn't actually mean "Always Evil", merely that "90% of its members belong to that alignment". Case in point: Annah-of-the-Shadows, Haer'Dalis, Neeshka (all CN tieflings, who are bound to Evil Alignments according to the rules of AD&D); Quilé Veladorn, Drizzt Do'Urden, Liriel Baenre and possibly Viconia DeVir (all non-evil drow); Fall-From-Grace and Sangalor of the Secrets (LN Succubus and Illithid, respectively); K'rand Vahlix (a GOOD FIEND, for god's sake!).
    So no, I don't find it inconceivable that a vampire could be non-evil, given that creatures MADE OF PURE FUCKING EVIL (in more ways than one) are capable of following another path.

    Delvarianenqenqlethaltoconcrete
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 483
    Hmmm.

    Intelligent creatures with free will can change their alignment by resisting whatever tendencies their existence forces upon them.

    Since it is rare that a creature has such a strength of will, they remain exceptions to the rule. Thus, we do have non-evil Drow, Beholders, Illithid, Vampires, Liches, and Evil Solars, etc.

    Note that these would be exceptional characters, individuals, not really representative of the rest of whatever race or condition that they are.

    Back to Hexxat (and the thread) : since she is an exceptional character, it is hard to say if she could change her alignment - since we know that Viconia and Sarevok can, I rather suspect that it would also be possible in the case of Hexxat, should she choose to.

    She does not, however.

    This, in and of itself, is telling. It tells us that she is committing evil acts (to remain evil). Even if Charname is not aware of them, believe me, that suave-skinned, lithe vampire is one evil little...package.

    Delvarian
  • LoubLoub Member Posts: 471
    edited February 2014
    @WebShaman
    "Suave-skinned"? I've never heard of such expression before.
    And why do I somehow consider that to be more offensive than a certain word?

    Post edited by Loub on
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 483
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/suave

    Then add skin to it.

    Smooth, agreeable skin. Probably close to silk and porcelain, all at once. Immaculate, without imperfection. She is lithe, a huntress. She moves exotically, hypnotically, her large eyes burning with intensity...

    Irresistible.

    All over in an instant, as she strikes, the attraction is washed away by the sudden horror and fear of approaching death...and the fierce shock of pain.

    lunar
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    In response to @webshaman and @archaos 's interesting discussion, there are exceptions to every rule: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Jander_Sunstar

    but generally speaking, the rule book does indeed say that vampires are "automatically" of evil alignment
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Vampire

  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 483
    Nice find.

    The exception proves the rule.

  • LathlaerLathlaer Member Posts: 475
    @Archaos
    I saw Durkon from OOTS mentioned but, and that is funny, he is potentially very Twillight-like. As far as I remember, vampires from Twillight never denied their monstrous instincts up to the point when it became sole plot for the second book.

    Similarly, we have yet to see Durkon act as regular evil vampire and considering Burlew's view of alignment in OOTS we are likely to never see him like that. True, he wasn't exposed to civilisation yet but his attitude towards teammates didn't actually change. Even better now that they developed a system to keep him fed without hurting anybody.

    So yeah, I'd say very Twillight-like.

  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 731
    edited February 2014
    May be similar but Durkon drinking the blood of his teammates and casting restoration is still a better love story than twilight

    jackjackDelvarianbooinyoureyestypo_tilly
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 9,668
    @Silverstar I hope you don't let a faerie hear that... Seriously even the good ones are psycopaths...

    Silverstarjackjacktypo_tilly
  • ZaknafeinBaenreZaknafeinBaenre Member Posts: 348
    Erevis Cale is a shade, and not evil. Thibbledorf Pwent is turned into a vampire in the Gauntlgrym series, and is not evil. There are enough examples of non-evil monsters that we can safely say being a vampire doesn't make Hexxat evil by itself. She has a sentient mind and the ability to make choices. She therefore has the ability to be good, neutral, or evil. She could easily be hunting cows and deer and other wildlife. Even in the city there are alternatives to people. Pwent hunts drow.

    It's not a black and white issue, and Hexxat is still figuring out who she is. Judging by he attitude, she's really in the true neutral range.

    lethaltoconcrete
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162

    Thibbledorf Pwent is turned into a vampire in the Gauntlgrym series, and is not evil.

    SPOILERSSSSSSSSSSSSSS :(

    Thats super sad though... but knowing his character, I could see him enjoying it a great deal...

  • lelag200lelag200 Member Posts: 120
    In every mythical/fantasy setting I've ever known *vampires are evil by nature.*

    And that's just it. I thought this was pretty common knowledge.

  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,419
    edited February 2014
    Well, I stand corrected. There is (are?) an exception where there's this vampire in the Realms that is not evil.
    But that is exactly that, an exception. Though there might be more.

    It's like saying "Why are demons evil?", "Well, because they're freaking demons and are literally evil incarnate" and then saying "...Well, there's Fall-from-Grace".

    One exception doesn't mean that the vast, vast majority of them shouldn't be evil because it's their nature.
    And the answer "because she's a vampire" I gave, pretty much still stands.

    A vampire or demon not being evil, must have a really good excuse and reason not to be so and probably takes an enormous force of will to resist their evil nature.

    It's not as simple "well, she's not evil because she's nice and doesn't feel like it".

    In the case of Viconia, she's a drow and was raised with such morals and Sarevok chose his path.
    That's part of their personalities.
    They're both mortals (elf and human), whereas Hexxat is a vampire. Her very nature is pushing her towards evil.

    About Durkon, he's still Lawful Evil and has very high wisdom. Loyalty to his friends (Lawful) doesn't cancel out his now Evil nature and he knows that the world is still more important.
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html
    Last panels.

    lelag200
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 483
    edited February 2014
    Whenever there is a major fad - you know, Good Drow, Good Vampires, Good Werewolves, who knows what will come next, then all of a sudden, we have a wave of peeps wanting them all to be so.

    In the FR :

    Drow are evil. Period. The notable exceptions (in this case, that strange ranger fella) are just that - exceptions.

    Vampires are evil. Period. Yes, again the "exception". Thank Twilight.

    And so on.

    Had Hexxat been made anything other than evil, bleh. It would have been as if they had made Viconia non-evil from the gitgo. That they made a playable Companion a Vampire I think is borderline enough; giving her then these super-powerful artefacts so that she is playable is really over the top. It would have been more interesting to me if she could only be healed by negative energy (cause wounds spells, harm), for example.

    Thankfully there is not likely to be any more Companions to come like this, so we can all breathe a sigh of relief.

    The real reason Hexxat is evil? Because she does evil things. And that is the real reason.

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