It's not too surprising that I see everyone talking about Kenny mages. Due to the relative obviousness of the two classes skills being so complementary, it is certainly a deadly combination. The class, hands down, has the best damage output capability there is. However, they lack considerable stamina and cannot sustain a prolonged fight due to short buff durations, extended buffing periods, and easily dispelled buffs.
The fact is that it has been long known that the kenny mage falls short to one class and one class only. The dual-classed swashbuckler - fighter. This fact was proven, re-addressed, and then proven again in multiple outings way back in 2001 with the very best players controlling both sides.
In SoA swashbuckler level 10 fighter level 19. In ToB swashbuckler level 25 fighter level 26.
This is without a doubt, the most fundamentally sound class combination available and creates a truly overpowered character.
@clogik I'm a noob so I'm wondering why is that build so powerful? Is the +1s to hit and damage every five levels that big of a difference and worth the no backstab?
@booinyoureyes acctually, a swashbuckler->Mage past level 10 is much better than a fighter/Mage multiclass. Except for the APR, but you can deal amazing damage, besides the +1 AC every five levels, plus the +1 AC at character creation, plus specialization allowed, plus mage spells, plus thieving skills without penalties..................................... The only thijng you miss is backstab. Practically, the only thing better than that build are 1) Fighter/Mage/Thief with no XP cap. 2) @CrevsDaak 3) Fighter/Mage/Thief with a 300% XP bonus and no XP cap. So, practically, it is the best dual-class ever. I recommend lvl 16 to dual Swashbuckler->Mage.
@cLogik Regarding K/M: They are able to sustain themselves for longer than they need to and longer than most other melee classes. PfMW is the only short duration buff they use and as you said their damage output is so high, so by the time you've cast it twice the fight is over. Its buffs are not dispelled at all if you use Spell Immunity.
I'm not seeing how a Swash/Fighter is better, care to enlighten? What would it do that Kensai 25 -> Thief 26 wouldn't for example?
@clogik I'm a noob so I'm wondering why is that build so powerful? Is the +1s to hit and damage every five levels that big of a difference and worth the no backstab?
Yes. A few items offer back stab immunity as well, so it's not really helpful unless you're just going through the game. Even then, a swashfighter is virtually unkillable without even needing to buff or drink a single potion. However, if he does... way op
@cLogik Regarding K/M: They are able to sustain themselves for longer than they need to and longer than most other melee classes. PfMW is the only short duration buff they use and as you said their damage output is so high, so by the time you've cast it twice the fight is over. Its buffs are not dispelled at all if you use Spell Immunity.
They are not. Their best abilities are also their downfall, that is, they require extensive buffing. Their big appeal is the ability to make sims and projected images, buff tensers and improved haste with an off hand belm and sport ridiculous attacks per second with very good thac0. Unfortunately, as soon as these things are gone, they turn right back into a lowly level 13 kenny with terrible thac0. Now, fortunately, they are still able to be a Mage, but there just is not enough inventory space to really roll around as both. If you're filling it all up with improved haste, storm giant pots, tensers, and stoneskin - you just don't have the space for your true mage spells.
Because of this, I always prefer to play a pure mage. They have so many lethal attack combinations and aren't confound to just one typical attack scenario. Of course you could still gear the character up to play as a pure mage and run around with a magi staff, but then why waste the experience and spell slots on being a Kensai too?
Fighters don't cast spells - Arrows of dispelling. But even if I had no dispelling arrows, it would just be a longer fight of hacking up sim after sim. Eventually the kenny mage runs out of gas.
A solo kensai mage fully buffed mirrored, blurred, stoneskinned, tensered, imp hasted the works - without a sim at his side, he will still lose a head to head battle with a swashfighter. Their ac and thac0 is just too low.
@cLogik I'm not seeing how a Swash/Fighter is better, care to enlighten? What would it do that Kensai 25 -> Thief 26 wouldn't for example?
Wear armor. Wear a helmet.
@cLogik A kensai->thief does both of those with UAI. It also does more damage per hit, it can also backstab, has Assassination and has Kai. I don't any advantage for the swash/fighter other than AC, and I don't see much advantage over a K/M either i.e. your original statement that a K/M somehow "falls short".
@cLogik I'm not seeing how a Swash/Fighter is better, care to enlighten? What would it do that Kensai 25 -> Thief 26 wouldn't for example?
Wear armor. Wear a helmet.
@cLogik A kensai->thief does both of those with UAI. It also does more damage per hit, it can also backstab, has Assassination and has Kai. I don't any advantage for the swash/fighter other than AC, and I don't see much advantage over a K/M either i.e. your original statement that a K/M somehow "falls short".
@cLogik I'm not seeing how a Swash/Fighter is better, care to enlighten? What would it do that Kensai 25 -> Thief 26 wouldn't for example?
Wear armor. Wear a helmet.
@cLogik A kensai->thief does both of those with UAI. It also does more damage per hit, it can also backstab, has Assassination and has Kai. I don't any advantage for the swash/fighter other than AC, and I don't see much advantage over a K/M either i.e. your original statement that a K/M somehow "falls short".
I forgot two other important ones.. use a shield and a bow
@cLogik I'm not seeing how a Swash/Fighter is better, care to enlighten? What would it do that Kensai 25 -> Thief 26 wouldn't for example?
Wear armor. Wear a helmet.
@cLogik A kensai->thief does both of those with UAI. It also does more damage per hit, it can also backstab, has Assassination and has Kai. I don't any advantage for the swash/fighter other than AC, and I don't see much advantage over a K/M either i.e. your original statement that a K/M somehow "falls short".
Ohh gotcha, use any item. Yes, very true. I won't lie, everyone stopped playing shortly after ToB came out, there was no dueling scene ever. The game changes were pretty significant and I don't think anyone could stomach being able to memorize level nine spells and abilities like use any item lol. I have pitted some characters against each other but it's only dabbling, not really any fun fighting yourself.
With that ability, a kensai thief would definitely be an improvement, that's a good one.
@cLogik Oh you're talking about PvP, I don't think that was in the scope of this thread. In that case I wouldn't go for a K/M, or at least I would go for a higher level dual.
Are you talking PvP how it would actually work (e.g. a mage's ADHW wouldn't damage you) or a hypothetical PvP setting where everything would work as in the other person was an enemy?
What would you do against a a f/m type with PfMW, Stoneskin, Improved Invisibility, SI:Divination and Abjuration? If it was the latter case first you'd have to Detect Illusion, then Breach with a wand, then attack. I can see that working, but is it gonna work before say for example, a Timestop is cast? If it's the former case I'm not sure what you would do, because a Detect Illusion wouldn't dispel your own party's illusions.
Ah, I didn't know what the scope of the conversation was. I feel like any consideration of a best build would have to be able to defeat all other builds in 1v1 combat.
I was talking about actual pvp situations.
Only spell detect illusion is incapable of detecting party members. All item versions work against party members (dragonslayer, albruin). Normally invisibility (pot or item) plus waiting would be the preferred strategy here, pfmw doesn't last long. I know some people who carried around a basic sword around just for this though.
Kensai dual to thief probably has the highest dps output in ToB. Using staff of the ram + 6 and kai in combination with assasination, I was able to do 175 dmg every hit not counting criticals. Also, barbarian I feel, really is an underrated class. I've tried out a new build with black razor in main and defender of eastheaven i off, giving him at lvl 40 40% res against all physical attacks. Also, he is crazy fast with grandmaster armor and amulet of the cheetha.
Kensai dual to thief probably has the highest dps output in ToB. Using staff of the ram + 6 and kai in combination with assasination, I was able to do 175 dmg every hit not counting criticals. Also, barbarian I feel, really is an underrated class. I've tried out a new build with black razor in main and defender of eastheaven i off, giving him at lvl 40 40% res against all physical attacks. Also, he is crazy fast with grandmaster armor and amulet of the cheetha.
Plz stop with your k/m fall off latter in game compare to f/m Just play it correctly if you want something strong... kensai 21 mage 22.
However, if you want the most cheated class ever, entropist . It's long time i didn't played him, but holyshit: He has the ability, with amulet of power alone, to spam with a glorious 0 cast time, every single spell endlessly.
Time stop with 0 cast time check. Wish with 0 cast time check. (usually if you cast it 3 time when you make a cycle of spell spam, you have the rest) high lvl summone with 0 cast time check. Dragon breath with 0 cast time check. etc....
And as he is high level, he will almost always have good roll for the side effect of his class both shield + caracter considered -5 level =66 on the table, before rolling the 100 faces dice... (the few bad one being heal on target and streng on target, but who cares of those few bad roll, when you can kill your target 500 time in the first round of the battle ?)
as far as I recall ranger/cleric is also pretty potential character as well as kensai mage. since this class can cast both druid/cleric buffs, you can play dragonball while others play bgt.
When I played a kensai mage back in vanilla soa, it seemed really overpowered. Could hit as well or better than NPC warriors, and had mage spells. Celestial Fury, the Cheesecloak etc just massacred everything.
Then I bought ToB. "Wow, the orcs sure got tougher!" After awhile I noticed my mighty kensai mage was getting easily outperformed by both Korgan and Sarevok. THAC0 was insufficient, and realisticly, HLA totally outclassed the buffs. Sure, you could tenser, but Sarevok would STILL be better while imp hasted with Critical Strike, and honestly not much could survive a gww from Sarevok anyways. K/M early and mid duals are not competetive warriors in ToB.
If you have a 'thing' for dual to maged, at lvl 13 berserker is going to be generally better. Kensai cant use Gauntlets of Expertise in BG (huge advantage to berserker, which was already vastly better in BG), and Extraordinary Expertise gives an extra 1/2 attack.
Best build overall though? Wild Mage or Sorcerer, high level spell slots. Runner up multiclass thieves and high level swashbucklers.
Wild mages have: free alacrity 0 cast time for every spell unlimited number of spell Need only to learn his level 1 spell More various spell than sorcerer More flexible than sorcerer buffed spell (>50% of the time when max level it's littérally 2 time stronger (when roll + basic number >100 it's a 100).
Sorcerer is not even close to the versatility of the wildmage, nor he has as many spell (well he has wish aswell, but it's not insta cast for him), nor he got buffed spell. Basically, sorcerer will be better than wild mage only in the very begining, assuming the wild mage do not fall on some high level spell.
And once again, if you are searching for somthing really great, do not go kensai 13, but 21. an (alacrity) kai crit improved haste (10 attack/round for dual wield kensai 21) is something that crush everything that isn't immune to him. I'm not even sure that a kensai thief can do as much damage.
Ranger cleric is pretty nice, but not that ubber late game. The main point of this is: it's a very strong class that isn't anoying to levelup compare to god tier kensai 21 mage 22 or wild mage. -especially in solo run-
If saw once a magekiller (don't know the kitname of this fighter in english) dual to a thieve. That was some kind of ultimate tank, don't remember the level in the fighter part thought.
The berserker/mage dual is pretty fine aswell, but not even close to the tanky power of the magekiller/thieve, and not even close to the offensiv power of kensai/thieve of a true kensai/mage.
I'd rather take a berserker/druid or a berserker/cleric than a berserker/mage; using the physical tank power of the berserker to make a good use of those hla blade (called blade sphere or something similar) -to cut everything that are near the berserker-.
Oh, you people with your spells and godling reality warping. Give me kensai/thief any day.
RAW HUMAN SKILL > SUPERPOWERS
The humans that kick @$$ through sheer skill (and I can't imagine any class fits that better than Kensai/Thief) are always the coolest. Screw the magic and powers.
I have played the game over and over and also played the Black Pits serie through and through. Here are my favorite pîcks in term of combat abilities :
-F/M, Ken/M, Ber/M. I would probably pick Ber/M just for the rage ability, but all 3 are pretty similar in the end. F/M is the funniest way to go if you play the main game. Dual classing sucks soooo much! -F/T, Ken/T, Ber/T, Smashbuckler. Serve all the same purpose and similar strength in combat. UAI, spike trap, backstab. Plus, for the main game, it's pretty cool to use your main character most of the time and not play some NPC thief to disarm traps and unlock doors/chests. -Sorcerer. Pick your spell wisely and you are good to go for any battle. -Monk. King of the battlefield! He's pretty useless in some of the strongest fights, but as long as you don't play solo, he is fun to watch kicking some butts! -Bounty Hunter. This guy is way too strong and going through a lot of forums, I don't think people have tried to play him that much. Beside the awesome HLA such as UAI and spike traps, you can use their special traps from a distance while your team is battleing and crowd control everything with Maze. It might get annoying when you just want to kill the bastard and he keeps disapearing, but life could be worst.
-Bounty Hunter. This guy is way too strong and going through a lot of forums, I don't think people have tried to play him that much. Beside the awesome HLA such as UAI and spike traps, you can use their special traps from a distance while your team is battleing and crowd control everything with Maze. It might get annoying when you just want to kill the bastard and he keeps disapearing, but life could be worst.
This topic got me messing around with various character combos and it looks like the Assassin gets it's back stab set at 2X if dueled over to a fighter so it is not even close to a ken/thief when it comes to damage. I don't remember it being like this before but as it is, I would say the Ken/thief 24/25 is probably the most damaging character in the game. Given that you rolled an 18 strength in Baldur's gate and then got all the various strength improvements throughout the game while using the staff of RAM+6 at grand master level with the gauntlets of extra special expertise gives you a damage output of 40-44. X5 backstab=180 damage in a single hit. As for abilities, you get 6 Kai uses as well as a whirlwind, greater whirlwind, assassination and all 3 thief HLA traps. With the use any item ability you can use full plate mail and even grand master the Carsmire +6 (though it doesn't hold up to the Staff of RAM because it can't backstab). You will even end up with slightly more hit points than a vanilla fighter despite the lower -1 per a level for the thief class since you will level up 50+ times instead of 40. Your thaco will be slightly lower than that of a level 40 fighter as well. This class has no downsides when compared to a fighter and huge improvements across the board. I just got a critical hit back stab on a genie for 360 points of damage in a single hit.
If you dual over at 13/14 you will have 3 less points to hit and damage and your thaco will be about 9 worse and you will not be able to attain the fighter class HLA whirlwind or greater whirlwind. However, you wouldn't have to waste the entire game playing under powered single class characters just to have the ultimate soldier for the last couple battles of the game. This character could still do 160 back stab damage in a single blow and 320 damage with a critical. This character gets 7 attacks with the rod of RAM every 2 rounds so you would get about 3.5 attacks round. If you used assassination you could do 560 points of damage in a single round and that is without any critical hits. If all 3.5 attacks were critical hits you could theoretically do 1,125 points of damage in a single round. The 24/25 Ken Thief could do even more damage and would be able to add another powerful combo to his skill set by use of kai with a greater whirlwind for a quick 440 points of guarantied damage. All of this with a -16 to -18 armor class and the ability to use scrolls and wands for buffs.
That is OP. Even if you dual at level 9/10 right out of the first dungeon in SOA you would still be extremely OP. In SOA you can get a staff that does 1d10+10 damage and your + to attack and damage would be another 2 points less but you would be able to nearly match the above damage values even if you dual at the very start of SOA and enjoy your character with all abilities for more than half of SOA and all of TOB.
In a party you will have multiple NPC magic users that all use the same spells with the same damage values. I think the player character would be better suited as a hard hitting tank and having the thief skills and use any item ability with back stab and grand mastery makes the ken/thief the best choice for a group in my opinion. It's basically a X5 fighter with some added skills. The fighter does get more HLA points so he could keep throwing greater whirlwinds into the mix but it would have to be a really long fight for him to get anywhere near the damage of a Ken/thief. With the Ken/thief everything in the game should die in a single hit and you get more options for how to you go about playing the game.
If your group is made up of NPC fighters and you choose to be a mage then you will be doing the same damage as any other mage you could have taken in but if your group is made up of NPC casters then as a ken/thief you are doing way more damage then any fighter or thief you could hire in the game so I think the optimal group is a mage heavy group with the main character being a fighter/thief dual class. The Ken/thief does more damage per hit than any pure class mage and you are doing it without magic for a little variety. Dual class berserker mages can do massaive damage but unless you are solo why would you want to fight up close and personal if you are a magic user and vice versa? The theif kit compliments the fighter kit perfectly. They are both toe to toe bashers but the thief just adds skills and X5 damage into the mix. Ken/thief gets my vote for best in game class when you are in a party and not cheating.
Solo, I must admit I have not tried a tipple class character. It looks limited in terms of HLA spells and ability which has kept me away but they are well rounded which is very much needed in a solo run. For now I think I would stick with what I know. A pure class mage or possibly a ken/mage or berserker mage for the diversity of protection and attacks with extreme damage. Maybe I will play through with a tripple class later on down the road. Lots of fun options in this game.
I find myself on the fence with this one. I am not a huge fan of dual classing, because I am just not patient enough.
I don't consider end game power the only benchmark in the "most powerful character" discussion. Don't get me wrong, end game is extremely important, but you need to actually get there. For the "most powerful character" I think you need to be a force from Level 1 all the way to the XP cap. I also think you need to discuss this without cheats.
That being said, here are my choices for power:
Gnome Fighter/Illusionist. Shorty saves vs magic (not poison like halflings and dwarves, but magic is more important), Fighter AND Mage HLAs is great (who needs to dual wield when you can GWW with Ravager!). Illusionists gain one more spell per level over a generic Mage, and the only spell you'll miss is Horrid Wilting (but that's why you have Fighter HLAs, and a much better THAC0 than a dual F>M).
Human Berserker 13 > Mage. I'm not a huge fan of dual classing, but I prefer this over a Kensai > Mage. I know you can probably get all of the Raging immunities with a spell, but that just doesn't seem as good to me. I prefer to play my characters from Candlekeep through ToB, and with EE, that makes Berserkers incredible in BG1.
Elf F/M/T. Very strong. My caveat here is I prefer 4 person parties. You can cover all your bases, you have to do less micro managing than in a 6 person party, and you still level up faster (but not rediculously fast like in a solo party). Basically, you have your power F/M combo, plus backstabs, and you can handle all the locks and traps in the games, and UAI (Jan's armor is incredible, if anything ever gets through a Stoneskin), and traps, I could go on and on.
Half Elf Cleric/Ranger multiclass. You cast all Cleric and all Druid spells. 'Nuff said. The only real downside, if you can call it that, is the best offhand weapon is the Defender of Easthaven, which shouldn't help you that much because you should always have Ironskin up.
I've come to a conclusion that a F/M/T is indeed one of the most powerful characters recently. @Gotural is a general fan of this combo and now when I've tried it myself, I seem to understand why.
The only remark I would like to make is that a half-elf is better - yes, you lose 90% immunity to Sleep that is useful early but instead you acquire a chance to have 18 CON that with a tome and Bentley's Buckler become 20 CON allowing you to heal when travelling between areas and resting. Want to heal your only char? Just equip a shield and rest and/or move to another area.
And elf is fine, his +1 Thaco bonuses to longswords and longbows are good but he still loses 1 CON that can be useful. And in terms of AC, there's NO difference between having 18, 19 and 20 DEX, and as soon as you get the tome, you acquire the same Miss Att Adj.
Although as a half-elf, you get less thieving bonus points (due to your race and 18, not 19, starting DEX). But my experience tells me this is not THAT important on a solo run. I'd better take a chance to regenerate right off the Candlekeep.
I agree, Bengoshi, that a half elf is better in a solo run. I was applying my thoughts to a 4 person party (which I believe to be the best). In a four person party, the THAC0 bonus with swords and bows stands out a little more.
In a solo than, you level up much faster and the bonus isn't really needed.
(@Dundee: the Unarmed Bonus is +4 but the Grandmastery Bonus is +4 too, so your max Total for the Assassin-Fighter is still right )
And some notes:
- The Assassin-Cleric can do more dmg than the Assassin-Fighter because of the bonus to dmg from Bless and Aid.Of course the G.Mastery of the Ass.-Fighter does not give any bonuses when attacking in the Iron Golem form.
Of course if we allow casting Bless and Aid on the Assassin-Fighter [or on a simple Assasin] from a Cleric, then he can do the same damage with the Assassin-Cleric. And both of them could do even more dmg if we allowed some Bards in the party [img]tongue.gif[/img] (the Enhanced Bard Song gives +4 to dmg/song). The Bards could also use their Mislead clones for singing (5 Misleads/Bard) and the effects of their song are cumulative This way we could achieve some incredible dmg, but I think that it would be too much
- Cheese: T.Transformation can be cast multiple times from scrolls and their effect are cumulative (+2 dmg bonus/T.T.)
- The bonus vs. Evil opponents from weapons (Equalizer,Daystar,Purifier) is not cumulative when 2 of them are used at the same time.
I remember playing as an assassin fighter back in the day and that is how it was. However, I rolled up an assassin last night and gave myself exp with EE keeper and when I dueled over to a fighter it showed up as fighter thief with a back stab of X2 for some reason. I tried it multiple times so I think it's either just that way in the EE edition or maybe EE keeper is causing the problem? At the moment it looks like the Assassin Fighter can only do about 75 damage in a single hit without critical which is lame compared to the other classes. I hope it's a mistake or a bug from leveling it up in an unnatural way but in my testing the Assassin is not worth the trouble anymore.
Comments
The fact is that it has been long known that the kenny mage falls short to one class and one class only. The dual-classed swashbuckler - fighter. This fact was proven, re-addressed, and then proven again in multiple outings way back in 2001 with the very best players controlling both sides.
In SoA swashbuckler level 10 fighter level 19. In ToB swashbuckler level 25 fighter level 26.
This is without a doubt, the most fundamentally sound class combination available and creates a truly overpowered character.
The only thijng you miss is backstab.
Practically, the only thing better than that build are
1) Fighter/Mage/Thief with no XP cap.
2) @CrevsDaak
3) Fighter/Mage/Thief with a 300% XP bonus and no XP cap.
So, practically, it is the best dual-class ever.
I recommend lvl 16 to dual Swashbuckler->Mage.
Regarding K/M: They are able to sustain themselves for longer than they need to and longer than most other melee classes. PfMW is the only short duration buff they use and as you said their damage output is so high, so by the time you've cast it twice the fight is over. Its buffs are not dispelled at all if you use Spell Immunity.
I'm not seeing how a Swash/Fighter is better, care to enlighten? What would it do that Kensai 25 -> Thief 26 wouldn't for example?
Because of this, I always prefer to play a pure mage. They have so many lethal attack combinations and aren't confound to just one typical attack scenario. Of course you could still gear the character up to play as a pure mage and run around with a magi staff, but then why waste the experience and spell slots on being a Kensai too?
Fighters don't cast spells - Arrows of dispelling. But even if I had no dispelling arrows, it would just be a longer fight of hacking up sim after sim. Eventually the kenny mage runs out of gas.
A solo kensai mage fully buffed mirrored, blurred, stoneskinned, tensered, imp hasted the works - without a sim at his side, he will still lose a head to head battle with a swashfighter. Their ac and thac0 is just too low.
A kensai->thief does both of those with UAI. It also does more damage per hit, it can also backstab, has Assassination and has Kai. I don't any advantage for the swash/fighter other than AC, and I don't see much advantage over a K/M either i.e. your original statement that a K/M somehow "falls short".
With that ability, a kensai thief would definitely be an improvement, that's a good one.
Oh you're talking about PvP, I don't think that was in the scope of this thread. In that case I wouldn't go for a K/M, or at least I would go for a higher level dual.
Are you talking PvP how it would actually work (e.g. a mage's ADHW wouldn't damage you) or a hypothetical PvP setting where everything would work as in the other person was an enemy?
What would you do against a a f/m type with PfMW, Stoneskin, Improved Invisibility, SI:Divination and Abjuration? If it was the latter case first you'd have to Detect Illusion, then Breach with a wand, then attack. I can see that working, but is it gonna work before say for example, a Timestop is cast? If it's the former case I'm not sure what you would do, because a Detect Illusion wouldn't dispel your own party's illusions.
I was talking about actual pvp situations.
Only spell detect illusion is incapable of detecting party members. All item versions work against party members (dragonslayer, albruin). Normally invisibility (pot or item) plus waiting would be the preferred strategy here, pfmw doesn't last long. I know some people who carried around a basic sword around just for this though.
Just play it correctly if you want something strong...
kensai 21 mage 22.
However, if you want the most cheated class ever, entropist . It's long time i didn't played him, but holyshit:
He has the ability, with amulet of power alone, to spam with a glorious 0 cast time, every single spell endlessly.
Time stop with 0 cast time check.
Wish with 0 cast time check. (usually if you cast it 3 time when you make a cycle of spell spam, you have the rest)
high lvl summone with 0 cast time check.
Dragon breath with 0 cast time check.
etc....
And as he is high level, he will almost always have good roll for the side effect of his class
both shield + caracter considered -5 level =66 on the table, before rolling the 100 faces dice...
(the few bad one being heal on target and streng on target, but who cares of those few bad roll, when you can kill your target 500 time in the first round of the battle ?)
since this class can cast both druid/cleric buffs, you can play dragonball while others play bgt.
Then I bought ToB. "Wow, the orcs sure got tougher!" After awhile I noticed my mighty kensai mage was getting easily outperformed by both Korgan and Sarevok. THAC0 was insufficient, and realisticly, HLA totally outclassed the buffs. Sure, you could tenser, but Sarevok would STILL be better while imp hasted with Critical Strike, and honestly not much could survive a gww from Sarevok anyways. K/M early and mid duals are not competetive warriors in ToB.
If you have a 'thing' for dual to maged, at lvl 13 berserker is going to be generally better. Kensai cant use Gauntlets of Expertise in BG (huge advantage to berserker, which was already vastly better in BG), and Extraordinary Expertise gives an extra 1/2 attack.
Best build overall though? Wild Mage or Sorcerer, high level spell slots. Runner up multiclass thieves and high level swashbucklers.
free alacrity
0 cast time for every spell
unlimited number of spell
Need only to learn his level 1 spell
More various spell than sorcerer
More flexible than sorcerer
buffed spell (>50% of the time when max level it's littérally 2 time stronger (when roll + basic number >100 it's a 100).
Sorcerer is not even close to the versatility of the wildmage, nor he has as many spell (well he has wish aswell, but it's not insta cast for him), nor he got buffed spell.
Basically, sorcerer will be better than wild mage only in the very begining, assuming the wild mage do not fall on some high level spell.
And once again, if you are searching for somthing really great, do not go kensai 13, but 21.
an (alacrity) kai crit improved haste (10 attack/round for dual wield kensai 21) is something that crush everything that isn't immune to him. I'm not even sure that a kensai thief can do as much damage.
Ranger cleric is pretty nice, but not that ubber late game. The main point of this is: it's a very strong class that isn't anoying to levelup compare to god tier kensai 21 mage 22 or wild mage.
-especially in solo run-
If saw once a magekiller (don't know the kitname of this fighter in english) dual to a thieve.
That was some kind of ultimate tank, don't remember the level in the fighter part thought.
The berserker/mage dual is pretty fine aswell, but not even close to the tanky power of the magekiller/thieve, and not even close to the offensiv power of kensai/thieve of a true kensai/mage.
I'd rather take a berserker/druid or a berserker/cleric than a berserker/mage; using the physical tank power of the berserker to make a good use of those hla blade (called blade sphere or something similar) -to cut everything that are near the berserker-.
RAW HUMAN SKILL > SUPERPOWERS
The humans that kick @$$ through sheer skill (and I can't imagine any class fits that better than Kensai/Thief) are always the coolest. Screw the magic and powers.
In my humble opinion.
-F/M, Ken/M, Ber/M. I would probably pick Ber/M just for the rage ability, but all 3 are pretty similar in the end. F/M is the funniest way to go if you play the main game. Dual classing sucks soooo much!
-F/T, Ken/T, Ber/T, Smashbuckler. Serve all the same purpose and similar strength in combat. UAI, spike trap, backstab. Plus, for the main game, it's pretty cool to use your main character most of the time and not play some NPC thief to disarm traps and unlock doors/chests.
-Sorcerer. Pick your spell wisely and you are good to go for any battle.
-Monk. King of the battlefield! He's pretty useless in some of the strongest fights, but as long as you don't play solo, he is fun to watch kicking some butts!
-Bounty Hunter. This guy is way too strong and going through a lot of forums, I don't think people have tried to play him that much. Beside the awesome HLA such as UAI and spike traps, you can use their special traps from a distance while your team is battleing and crowd control everything with Maze. It might get annoying when you just want to kill the bastard and he keeps disapearing, but life could be worst.
This topic got me messing around with various character combos and it looks like the Assassin gets it's back stab set at 2X if dueled over to a fighter so it is not even close to a ken/thief when it comes to damage. I don't remember it being like this before but as it is, I would say the Ken/thief 24/25 is probably the most damaging character in the game. Given that you rolled an 18 strength in Baldur's gate and then got all the various strength improvements throughout the game while using the staff of RAM+6 at grand master level with the gauntlets of extra special expertise gives you a damage output of 40-44. X5 backstab=180 damage in a single hit. As for abilities, you get 6 Kai uses as well as a whirlwind, greater whirlwind, assassination and all 3 thief HLA traps. With the use any item ability you can use full plate mail and even grand master the Carsmire +6 (though it doesn't hold up to the Staff of RAM because it can't backstab). You will even end up with slightly more hit points than a vanilla fighter despite the lower -1 per a level for the thief class since you will level up 50+ times instead of 40. Your thaco will be slightly lower than that of a level 40 fighter as well. This class has no downsides when compared to a fighter and huge improvements across the board. I just got a critical hit back stab on a genie for 360 points of damage in a single hit.
If you dual over at 13/14 you will have 3 less points to hit and damage and your thaco will be about 9 worse and you will not be able to attain the fighter class HLA whirlwind or greater whirlwind. However, you wouldn't have to waste the entire game playing under powered single class characters just to have the ultimate soldier for the last couple battles of the game. This character could still do 160 back stab damage in a single blow and 320 damage with a critical. This character gets 7 attacks with the rod of RAM every 2 rounds so you would get about 3.5 attacks round. If you used assassination you could do 560 points of damage in a single round and that is without any critical hits. If all 3.5 attacks were critical hits you could theoretically do 1,125 points of damage in a single round. The 24/25 Ken Thief could do even more damage and would be able to add another powerful combo to his skill set by use of kai with a greater whirlwind for a quick 440 points of guarantied damage. All of this with a -16 to -18 armor class and the ability to use scrolls and wands for buffs.
That is OP. Even if you dual at level 9/10 right out of the first dungeon in SOA you would still be extremely OP. In SOA you can get a staff that does 1d10+10 damage and your + to attack and damage would be another 2 points less but you would be able to nearly match the above damage values even if you dual at the very start of SOA and enjoy your character with all abilities for more than half of SOA and all of TOB.
In a party you will have multiple NPC magic users that all use the same spells with the same damage values. I think the player character would be better suited as a hard hitting tank and having the thief skills and use any item ability with back stab and grand mastery makes the ken/thief the best choice for a group in my opinion. It's basically a X5 fighter with some added skills. The fighter does get more HLA points so he could keep throwing greater whirlwinds into the mix but it would have to be a really long fight for him to get anywhere near the damage of a Ken/thief. With the Ken/thief everything in the game should die in a single hit and you get more options for how to you go about playing the game.
If your group is made up of NPC fighters and you choose to be a mage then you will be doing the same damage as any other mage you could have taken in but if your group is made up of NPC casters then as a ken/thief you are doing way more damage then any fighter or thief you could hire in the game so I think the optimal group is a mage heavy group with the main character being a fighter/thief dual class. The Ken/thief does more damage per hit than any pure class mage and you are doing it without magic for a little variety. Dual class berserker mages can do massaive damage but unless you are solo why would you want to fight up close and personal if you are a magic user and vice versa? The theif kit compliments the fighter kit perfectly. They are both toe to toe bashers but the thief just adds skills and X5 damage into the mix. Ken/thief gets my vote for best in game class when you are in a party and not cheating.
Solo, I must admit I have not tried a tipple class character. It looks limited in terms of HLA spells and ability which has kept me away but they are well rounded which is very much needed in a solo run. For now I think I would stick with what I know. A pure class mage or possibly a ken/mage or berserker mage for the diversity of protection and attacks with extreme damage. Maybe I will play through with a tripple class later on down the road. Lots of fun options in this game.
I don't consider end game power the only benchmark in the "most powerful character" discussion. Don't get me wrong, end game is extremely important, but you need to actually get there. For the "most powerful character" I think you need to be a force from Level 1 all the way to the XP cap. I also think you need to discuss this without cheats.
That being said, here are my choices for power:
Gnome Fighter/Illusionist. Shorty saves vs magic (not poison like halflings and dwarves, but magic is more important), Fighter AND Mage HLAs is great (who needs to dual wield when you can GWW with Ravager!). Illusionists gain one more spell per level over a generic Mage, and the only spell you'll miss is Horrid Wilting (but that's why you have Fighter HLAs, and a much better THAC0 than a dual F>M).
Human Berserker 13 > Mage. I'm not a huge fan of dual classing, but I prefer this over a Kensai > Mage. I know you can probably get all of the Raging immunities with a spell, but that just doesn't seem as good to me. I prefer to play my characters from Candlekeep through ToB, and with EE, that makes Berserkers incredible in BG1.
Elf F/M/T. Very strong. My caveat here is I prefer 4 person parties. You can cover all your bases, you have to do less micro managing than in a 6 person party, and you still level up faster (but not rediculously fast like in a solo party). Basically, you have your power F/M combo, plus backstabs, and you can handle all the locks and traps in the games, and UAI (Jan's armor is incredible, if anything ever gets through a Stoneskin), and traps, I could go on and on.
Half Elf Cleric/Ranger multiclass. You cast all Cleric and all Druid spells. 'Nuff said. The only real downside, if you can call it that, is the best offhand weapon is the Defender of Easthaven, which shouldn't help you that much because you should always have Ironskin up.
The only remark I would like to make is that a half-elf is better - yes, you lose 90% immunity to Sleep that is useful early but instead you acquire a chance to have 18 CON that with a tome and Bentley's Buckler become 20 CON allowing you to heal when travelling between areas and resting. Want to heal your only char? Just equip a shield and rest and/or move to another area.
And elf is fine, his +1 Thaco bonuses to longswords and longbows are good but he still loses 1 CON that can be useful. And in terms of AC, there's NO difference between having 18, 19 and 20 DEX, and as soon as you get the tome, you acquire the same Miss Att Adj.
Although as a half-elf, you get less thieving bonus points (due to your race and 18, not 19, starting DEX). But my experience tells me this is not THAT important on a solo run. I'd better take a chance to regenerate right off the Candlekeep.
In a solo than, you level up much faster and the bonus isn't really needed.
If you care about the highest backstab damage, the Assasin->Cleric should be able to deal the most damaging single unassisted backstab.
http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=161437&postcount=17 The record for the most damaging single assisted backstab damage is held by the Assasin->Cleric with his army of singing Bard-Clones.
@Alesia_BH actually once tried that out and did reach 2422 damage:
http://forum.bioware.com/topic/486052-sorcerer-spell-picks-specific-questions/#entry15706579