@NancyButtpeach I don't want to turn this into a discussion about religion or abortion, but let me just say that societal health goes up when abortion is available. It is a very good thing to have access to as a society, and the only reasons one could possibly have to disagree with it would have to be religious ones. And religious reasons are a very bad basis for doing anything.
Then you shouldn't have mentioned it. It is a sad, sad state of affairs when people praise murder as being good for the health of society. There are plenty of reasons aside from religious ones (very common sense, too) to oppose abortion.
Okay, let's stay off the hot-button topics, shall we?
Not only is it completely off topic, but people are going to get offended and start being less than pleasant. The discussion has gone on until now with more or less respectful behavior on all sides. Let's try to keep it that way.
EDIT: (In case it wasn't clear from the above, I'm talking to @Sir_Carnifex AND @Doveberry, not just one or the other. This is an issue that we'll never reach an agreement on because it's based on deeply rooted personal beliefs, and it has no place in this discussion.)
Well said, @Aosaw. I was responding to @NancyButtpeach, and I should probably just have ignored everything he said. Especially the bit that referred to this issue.
More on topic: I am not completely opposed to slightly (!) impractical armor, if it suits a specific character. However, I would be happy to see chainmail bikinis disappear forever.
Just as a matter of purient interest, I met the most lovely young lady at the Maryland RenFest a few years ago, she and her girlfriend and a couple of other women are Blacksmiths who specialize in making Armor and weapons and she was quite fond of wearing her chain mail bikini, that she hand crafted from gold colored links.... and a shirt made of chain link? Well the ones they sold weighed in at around 65lbs unless you got the purely ornamental aluminum ones.
Funny how we go from "it's silly to have chainmail bikinis" to pontification about gender roles and suitabilities. Actually, 'funny' is not a good way to put it, for it is sad, actually, as this worn story-line seems to really (and predictably) degenerate into the same, tired wheel rut.
I want realistic armors and let the bikini fans upload their own portraits (and have a blast with it). :-\
Funny how we go from "it's silly to have chainmail bikinis" to pontification about gender roles and suitabilities. Actually, 'funny' is not a good way to put it, for it is sad, actually, as this worn story-line seems to really (and predictably) degenerate into the same, tired wheel rut.
I want realistic armors and let the bikini fans upload their own portraits (and have a blast with it). :-\
I'd have to agree. I abandoned this thread for a time because, as per the norm, when we start discussing men and women on this forum, some jackass has to swoop in and assert that women shouldn't be portrayed as powerful warriors. I mean, really, "meek" and "nurturing"? No adventurer can afford to be meek, and nurturing isn't really conducive to stabbing people or incinerating them with magic.
This thread was originally about how silly chainmail bikinis are from a practical standpoint. I don't mind oggling a Red Sonya comic book once in a while, but there shouldn't even be a discussion as to whether or not her armor is not armor at all.
With regards to the specific topic, I would like to see modest art for women. I would like to see them depicted as meek, as mothers and nurturers within video game art. This is what will de-objectify them and will restore to them their dignity and personhood, as is fitting.
Apparently, female adventurers should not only be weak, but they should be completely irresponsible and raise children while traversing the Underdark.
I had a really long post I was going to make, but really what it breaks down to is:
Yes, men and women physically have different starting points. This results in the fact that the average man is closer than the average woman to being a DnD fighter. This does not mean that it is impossible for a female to be a fighter-type, since anyone with class levels is exceptional already. How much of the general population are adventurerers anyway, less than 1%?
As far as whether this makes a person less 'feminine' or not is really a matter of opinion.
I think the best point that has been said in this thread is to have female portraits portraying the personality of the character.
Furthermore I agree with @LadyRhian 's stance that in general female armor falls under teh category of "Chainmail Bikini"
Now as a woman and a gamer, if we can STOP having discussions about male capabilities compared to men and fighting, it would be rather nice. This is at LEAST the 3rd topic since I've started posting on this forum to bring them up.
@Tanthalas would agree at this point I'm sure that we need to respect the basic rules of the internet. Don't bring up politics or religion in a gaming forum. This includes abortion.
Ok I fibbed, Im usually Neutral Good, or Chaotic Good with the Occasional Lawful character....Oh and I do Druids now and then, I don't think Ive ever actually RP'd an Evil Character in pen and paper or in CRPG...just not my thing.
Does Discussing which Chaotic Evil Deity Ill be worshiping count as religion?
[snarkiness]It technically should, but I think we can forgive it. The made up human religions are the problem, not the true ones of The Sword Coast and its environs... People, sometimes... [/snarkiness]
I just have one last thing to say on the whole male vs. female thing. Yeah, I'm a woman, and I have always been more interested in "male" pursuits over "female" pusuits. I wanted to be in combat and join the army, I read "Men's Adventure" from the time that I was a pre-teen, and when I played D&D Basic for the first time, I rolled up a female fighter (this was pre-fifth grade). Even earlier than that, my favorite Goddess was Artemis from the Greek Pantheon (along with Athena, Goddess of both War and Wisdom). Saying that I am "deviant" or somehow want to "Stand out by being different" makes me annoyed. That's the way I am, and despite tons of hammers trying to beat me down for sticking up and being the unusual one, I remain the way I have always been inside. It's true- not all women want to go into combat and fight. But there are those that do. In fact, I am willing to state it has always been that way. All society does is either condone and allow it to happen or frown on it and demand it *not* happen. In the Realms, society is such that it condones such behavior and allows it to happen, that those women who want to fight and become fighters are allowed to and not looked down on for making that choice. And they are still allowed to be women no matter the choices they make in their profession. Some societies are such that women have had to pretend to be men to get the kind of life and make the choices they wanted.
And it's not just modern day society that had ideas of women as fighter/warriors. Don't forget that Conan had Belit, Valeria of the Red Brotherhood, and Red Sonya of Rogatino. And Robert Howard wrote about Dark Agnes as well, Agnes de Chastillion, to give her full name.
@NancyButtpeach I don't want to turn this into a discussion about religion or abortion, but let me just say that societal health goes up when abortion is available. It is a very good thing to have access to as a society, and the only reasons one could possibly have to disagree with it would have to be religious ones. And religious reasons are a very bad basis for doing anything.
Then you shouldn't have mentioned it. It is a sad, sad state of affairs when people praise murder as being good for the health of society. There are plenty of reasons aside from religious ones (very common sense, too) to oppose abortion.
@LadyRhian I don't think "Deviant" is the proper word, though I guess if you stick to the precise mathematical meaning of the word it actually is the right word...But not being the "Norm" or in the 90th Percentile of the population is not a bad thing. I would use the word Exceptional as it has a more socially positive meaning in todays vocabulary.
@immagikman Perhaps, but that was, I believe, Nancybuttpeach's connotation, and she used it in a way that had negative connotations, that today's society was "aberrant and decadent". Regardless, it left a bad taste in my mouth. I may be different, but different isn't a bad thing. It's not even that I want to be a man (I definitely do NOT want to be a man, although I have been accused of wanting to be a man). I just am interested in a lot of things that society deems to be male pursuits guns, fighting, battles, and reading about those things. I also like archery.
That's why I found "his" (and I thought with a name like "Nancybuttpeach" that the poster would be a woman, which is why I am putting the word in quotes) opinion to be exceptionally annoying. It was like the poster was saying there was something wrong with me. Those two ways of approaching life, "Male" and "Female"? They are determined largely, but not solely, by culture. And this is someone who studied to be an Anthropologist/Archaeologist in college. The only reason why cultures these days seem monolithic is because our means of spreading culture- media, is everywhere and spreads at the speed of light through the internet, Radio and TV.
Just as a matter of purient interest, I met the most lovely young lady at the Maryland RenFest a few years ago, she and her girlfriend and a couple of other women are Blacksmiths who specialize in making Armor and weapons and she was quite fond of wearing her chain mail bikini, that she hand crafted from gold colored links.... and a shirt made of chain link? Well the ones they sold weighed in at around 65lbs unless you got the purely ornamental aluminum ones.
I'd love to wear a real chain shirt just to increase my general body strength. I'm sure it's like hell to sleep in, but that sounds like something I'd love to do (wearing it, not sleeping in it). I understand helmets and helms can be hell on the neck, as well. Even one of the Queens had the crown of England resized to make it smaller because it was just too heavy and her neck would hurt when she had to wear it for long periods.
@LadyRhian When I met these people I tried on the chain brigandine I think they called it, came down below the waist with flaps to protect the upper thighs....I would NOT have wanted to wear it on a hot muggy day, and I knew I wouldnt be able to wear it around for too long at a time...you figure adding padding and weapons and a pack? Yikes!
I also want to apologize if you thought I agreed with NBP..but I thought he/she was being humorous not trying to be serious and don't agree with that kind of silly bigotry. People need to be treated as individuals not as groups.
I have read most responses, and the only statement with which I take personal issue is the use of the term "bigot." If someone disagrees with you, you cannot call them a "bigot." I have stated clear views on sexuality which are held and have been held by a large segment of human culture. I have never advocated the abuse or mistreatment of women.
I am actually highly pleased with the state of openness in these forums. I have tried discussing similar topics in the WotC forums, and I have been censored. Of course, WotC is seated in an ultra-liberal part of the country, so it is to be expected.
My most recent infraction was in a discussion about alignment and sexuality. People were talking about Zeus being listed as Chaotic Good, despite the fact that he raped a lot of women. I stated that sexual ethics are up for grabs in our culture, as in many cultures. In many cultures, what we call rape, they call sex. (Ancient Greece is a great example, where Jerry Sandusky's sexual activities with young men working for him was considered normal and healthy.) I then stated that I have had fellow players who were all good-aligned visit brothels, while my reasoning for not going was because my character was good in alignment. I then stated that I would not allow any good-aligned character to commit rape, visit a brothel, or commit abortion. This immediately got me censored. All the while, people with views of sexuality that are highly offensive to me post with impunity. That bothers me. I made it clear that I am against rape, prostitution and abortion- I am not advocating them.
I am actually relieved that the forums here are open-minded enough to allow honest discussion on these issues.
Being serviced at a brothel and abortion are alignment neutral acts. Neither of those are necessarily Good or Evil. Rape, of course, knowingly inflicts suffering on others, and is clearly an Evil act.
Well, when I use your definition of an evil act - "knowingly inflicts suffering on others"- then the abortion is clearly an Evil act. It denies someone the existence, it kills life. Also there exist videos (I did not see them myself, I have not stomach for it, only read description) from abortion when the child tries to escape the abortion "tool", without a chance of course, I doubt the child does not feel pain so the suffering is also there. If I used the DnD classification, then it is not only evil but also chaotic.
Comments
Not only is it completely off topic, but people are going to get offended and start being less than pleasant. The discussion has gone on until now with more or less respectful behavior on all sides. Let's try to keep it that way.
EDIT: (In case it wasn't clear from the above, I'm talking to @Sir_Carnifex AND @Doveberry, not just one or the other. This is an issue that we'll never reach an agreement on because it's based on deeply rooted personal beliefs, and it has no place in this discussion.)
More on topic: I am not completely opposed to slightly (!) impractical armor, if it suits a specific character. However, I would be happy to see chainmail bikinis disappear forever.
PS: http://www.duelinganalogs.com/comic/all-geared-up-and-raring-to-go/
I want realistic armors and let the bikini fans upload their own portraits (and have a blast with it). :-\
This thread was originally about how silly chainmail bikinis are from a practical standpoint. I don't mind oggling a Red Sonya comic book once in a while, but there shouldn't even be a discussion as to whether or not her armor is not armor at all.
Dug it up from the bowels of this woefully abused thread: Apparently, female adventurers should not only be weak, but they should be completely irresponsible and raise children while traversing the Underdark.
Yes, men and women physically have different starting points. This results in the fact that the average man is closer than the average woman to being a DnD fighter. This does not mean that it is impossible for a female to be a fighter-type, since anyone with class levels is exceptional already. How much of the general population are adventurerers anyway, less than 1%?
As far as whether this makes a person less 'feminine' or not is really a matter of opinion.
Furthermore I agree with @LadyRhian 's stance that in general female armor falls under teh category of "Chainmail Bikini"
Now as a woman and a gamer, if we can STOP having discussions about male capabilities compared to men and fighting, it would be rather nice. This is at LEAST the 3rd topic since I've started posting on this forum to bring them up.
@Tanthalas would agree at this point I'm sure that we need to respect the basic rules of the internet. Don't bring up politics or religion in a gaming forum. This includes abortion.
Please and Thank You.
And it's not just modern day society that had ideas of women as fighter/warriors. Don't forget that Conan had Belit, Valeria of the Red Brotherhood, and Red Sonya of Rogatino. And Robert Howard wrote about Dark Agnes as well, Agnes de Chastillion, to give her full name.
On the record i'm an agnostost and i'm pro-choice but i can understand and relate to the reason some pro-life give that's not linked to religion
I don't think "Deviant" is the proper word, though I guess if you stick to the precise mathematical meaning of the word it actually is the right word...But not being the "Norm" or in the 90th Percentile of the population is not a bad thing. I would use the word Exceptional as it has a more socially positive meaning in todays vocabulary.
That's why I found "his" (and I thought with a name like "Nancybuttpeach" that the poster would be a woman, which is why I am putting the word in quotes) opinion to be exceptionally annoying. It was like the poster was saying there was something wrong with me. Those two ways of approaching life, "Male" and "Female"? They are determined largely, but not solely, by culture. And this is someone who studied to be an Anthropologist/Archaeologist in college. The only reason why cultures these days seem monolithic is because our means of spreading culture- media, is everywhere and spreads at the speed of light through the internet, Radio and TV.
When I met these people I tried on the chain brigandine I think they called it, came down below the waist with flaps to protect the upper thighs....I would NOT have wanted to wear it on a hot muggy day, and I knew I wouldnt be able to wear it around for too long at a time...you figure adding padding and weapons and a pack? Yikes!
I also want to apologize if you thought I agreed with NBP..but I thought he/she was being humorous not trying to be serious and don't agree with that kind of silly bigotry. People need to be treated as individuals not as groups.
I am actually highly pleased with the state of openness in these forums. I have tried discussing similar topics in the WotC forums, and I have been censored. Of course, WotC is seated in an ultra-liberal part of the country, so it is to be expected.
My most recent infraction was in a discussion about alignment and sexuality. People were talking about Zeus being listed as Chaotic Good, despite the fact that he raped a lot of women. I stated that sexual ethics are up for grabs in our culture, as in many cultures. In many cultures, what we call rape, they call sex. (Ancient Greece is a great example, where Jerry Sandusky's sexual activities with young men working for him was considered normal and healthy.) I then stated that I have had fellow players who were all good-aligned visit brothels, while my reasoning for not going was because my character was good in alignment. I then stated that I would not allow any good-aligned character to commit rape, visit a brothel, or commit abortion. This immediately got me censored. All the while, people with views of sexuality that are highly offensive to me post with impunity. That bothers me. I made it clear that I am against rape, prostitution and abortion- I am not advocating them.
I am actually relieved that the forums here are open-minded enough to allow honest discussion on these issues.
If I used the DnD classification, then it is not only evil but also chaotic.