Don't beat yourself up - those are not so much stereotypes as archetypes. It's what all of these character classes are, since Gary Gygax dreamed this all up while reading LotR in the 70s.
Ah, the 70s, when men were real men, dwarves were all fighters, and bards were fighter/thief/druids! :-)
My wife commented that Star Lord in Guardians of the Galaxy is a bard. He is somewhat of a rogue, somewhat of a fighter, prefers to fast-talk his way into--or out of--situations, and uses music as inspiration.
Don't beat yourself up - those are not so much stereotypes as archetypes. It's what all of these character classes are, since Gary Gygax dreamed this all up while reading LotR in the 70s.
Ah, the 70s, when men were real men, dwarves were all fighters, and bards were fighter/thief/druids! :-)
“In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. And all dared to brave unknown terrors, to do mighty deeds, to boldly split infinitives that no man had split before -- and thus was the Empire forged. ”
@the_spyder - I also do not see Bards as melee types except by mishap. I think the Blade Kit would have been better for Rogues, with instead something more like Assassin kit available for an Evil aligned Bard.
I have a general gripe ~ from the purist POV of Game Design ~ about the use of Charisma as a dump stat. If the basic format of the game stems from only 6 Stats, EACH of them should have a definitive weight on what a Charname/NPC can achieve and how. About the only thing Charisma is good for is discounts on a few big purchases. Woo-hoo!!!
Bards however must have good Charisma and I would like that to be rewarded in a powerful way, thus the idea of better HP which can be theoretically attributed to their shiny dispositions,etc.. They could only get the normal Con. bonus so a Warrior would still outshine them in HP.
I would also like them to have a selection of 2-3 Bard songs with different effects such that they could respond to the situation with Melee boosts like the normal Skald song or a song that acts like a Silence of Dispel Magic. Balanced by limiting their Mage spells to only one slot plus wands.
Something I just learned while researching Bards is that they get HLAs from the Thief/Rogue selections, so UAI and Spike Trap really changes how I look at them for BGII.
I like Bards because they really offer imho the possibility of a quite different RP flavor from hack-and-slash pillaging. And also because I have a great love of Celtic Harp traditions.
@Eadwyn_G8keeper - in PnP, Charisma is anything but a dump stat, at least in the games that my DM would run. It had very real impact on the day to day interactions, sometimes even more weight than the combat related stats.
The problem is translating that into a CRPG, not the least of which because if you weight NPC interactions, you have to do it appropriate to their ideologies and alignments. I bet that would be a HUGE headache to accomplish.
I agree that a selection of songs with varying abilities would add flavor. Again, from a PnP perspective really the sky is the limit for them. A good DM will set up house rules such that you can have a very robust experience. I am sure that there are ways that these could be modded so maybe do some looking around. It sounds like the type of thing that someone would have done by now. If you find something, come back and let us know. I'd love to try it out, particularly as I've decided to actually try taking Garrick with me on my most current run.
My current run is as a halfling thief for whom other people's property comes quite naturally. The ultimate 'flavor' of the group is going to be a troop of traveling performers. Imoen will go wizard and have 'illusions' to play with. Garrick is there of course. Jaheira will be the animal trainer with Khalid as the "Strong man". Should be fun if a bit on the weak side.
I can't be the only one who's taken a dislike to using Khalid and Jaheira as fighters in the first game just on account of their lousy carrying capacities. Getting all of the Cloakwood loot back to civilization is especially hard when I rely on those two.
I think the real crime being committed among players & their low level Mages according to the content of this thread is the use of a Sling instead of Darts. If you're not going to hit, at least give your Sleep-abusing Mage 3 attacks per round and give him a fighting chance! Harsh, guys.
I think the real crime being committed among players & their low level Mages according to the content of this thread is the use of a Sling instead of Darts. If you're not going to hit, at least give your Sleep-abusing Mage 3 attacks per round and give him a fighting chance! Harsh, guys.
I personally hate darts because of the really low stack count. I've got enough micro managing without having to worry about my wizard run out of projectiles and then switching to staff. Considering the relatively minor lift of an extra attack per round, it just isn't worth it "to me".
@Eadwyn_G8keeper - in PnP, Charisma is anything but a dump stat, at least in the games that my DM would run. It had very real impact on the day to day interactions, sometimes even more weight than the combat related stats.
Not to mention it influenced your number of followers. Your bulwark against the infinite, as it were.
Comments
I have a general gripe ~ from the purist POV of Game Design ~ about the use of Charisma as a dump stat. If the basic format of the game stems from only 6 Stats, EACH of them should have a definitive weight on what a Charname/NPC can achieve and how. About the only thing Charisma is good for is discounts on a few big purchases. Woo-hoo!!!
Bards however must have good Charisma and I would like that to be rewarded in a powerful way, thus the idea of better HP which can be theoretically attributed to their shiny dispositions,etc.. They could only get the normal Con. bonus so a Warrior would still outshine them in HP.
I would also like them to have a selection of 2-3 Bard songs with different effects such that they could respond to the situation with Melee boosts like the normal Skald song or a song that acts like a Silence of Dispel Magic. Balanced by limiting their Mage spells to only one slot plus wands.
Something I just learned while researching Bards is that they get HLAs from the Thief/Rogue selections, so UAI and Spike Trap really changes how I look at them for BGII.
I like Bards because they really offer imho the possibility of a quite different RP flavor from hack-and-slash pillaging. And also because I have a great love of Celtic Harp traditions.
Apologies for derailing the thread.
The problem is translating that into a CRPG, not the least of which because if you weight NPC interactions, you have to do it appropriate to their ideologies and alignments. I bet that would be a HUGE headache to accomplish.
I agree that a selection of songs with varying abilities would add flavor. Again, from a PnP perspective really the sky is the limit for them. A good DM will set up house rules such that you can have a very robust experience. I am sure that there are ways that these could be modded so maybe do some looking around. It sounds like the type of thing that someone would have done by now. If you find something, come back and let us know. I'd love to try it out, particularly as I've decided to actually try taking Garrick with me on my most current run.
My current run is as a halfling thief for whom other people's property comes quite naturally. The ultimate 'flavor' of the group is going to be a troop of traveling performers. Imoen will go wizard and have 'illusions' to play with. Garrick is there of course. Jaheira will be the animal trainer with Khalid as the "Strong man". Should be fun if a bit on the weak side.
Consider limited visibility & -4 hit penalty (as per blindness) in dark dungeons and moonless nights!!