@lordkim LOL... I could indeed. You guys really want to know who would win eh? Might be a fun mod to make... will give it some thought. Maybe a sidequest back to the Copper Coronet gladiator pits late in the game from ToB where you can have them fight it out. Could be interesting.
On a silly note add more fights: Tag team fighting- Kelban & Elminster vs Shangalar & Kangaxx
The fact that you lot keep looking at this from a purely game play perspective worries me a little. You remind me of the guys I used to play pen n' paper D&D with, arguing non-stop over tiny stipulations in the rules.
The hilarious part was that in the very first few pages of the Player's Handbook it states to the reader that D&D is what you make of it and the contents herein should only be used as guidelines. In other words, D&D never had set-in-stone rules.
Personally, I imagined an actual fight, in a tavern between Sarevok and Irenicus. Sarevok would kill Irenicus very quickly with his bare hands. If they were in the wilderness, facing off at a distance, clearly Irenicus would be the strong favourite.
If stats are disregarded, then there's nothing to base any of this on, and the whole topic is pointless.
It becomes a topic of who "looks like" they should win in a fight. That's like saying, will Drizzt or Algernon win in a fight? If there are no stats, then you'd probably say Algernon, he probably weighs twice as much as Drizzt. But that's obviously ridiculous.
If stats are disregarded, then there's nothing to base any of this on, and the whole topic is pointless.
It becomes a topic of who "looks like" they should win in a fight. That's like saying, will Drizzt or Algernon win in a fight? If there are no stats, then you'd probably say Algernon, he probably weighs twice as much as Drizzt. But that's obviously ridiculous.
Except that's not what I'm basing my opinion on, since I clearly stated; it depends on the circumstance. In this circumstance, it's a bar fight, a brawl. You cannot say that such a scenario wouldn't favour the hand-to-hand fighter.
And in the example you listed, I'd actually favour Drizzt and that decision has squat-all to do with his 'stats.' Going by your logic, any tall, muscled guy could beat a black-belt martial artist in a face-off. Such comparisons are folly. Though having said that, again... it depends on circumstance.
A little girl armed with a cooking spatula could slaughter an experienced soldier, depending on the circumstance.
Of course this situation favors a hand-to-hand fighter. But what we're talking about here is a mage with 15 more levels than the fighter, that's a pretty big difference. And I don't see why we would assume the mage wouldn't use spells even in a bar. And if you just want to see who would win in a fist fight with no other abilities, then I don't really see the point when you're blatantly severely handicapping one of the combatants. You're basically purposely skewing the contest to obtain a certain outcome.
And in the example you listed, I'd actually favour Drizzt and that decision has squat-all to do with his 'stats.' Going by your logic, any tall, muscled guy could beat a black-belt martial artist in a face-off.
Your decision has everything to do with his "stats". You're only saying you favor Drizzt because you already know who he is. You know what he can do because you already know his stats. Without Drizzt's stats, you're basing your decision on nothing. And by stats, I don't just mean ability scores. Stats also include level, class, AC, Thac0, etc. If you don't look at stats, you're basically looking at a blank sheet with no information. You don't know any of his abilities, you don't know if he's level 1 or level 20. Choosing Drizzt over Algernon without knowing any of their abilities has no logic.
Irenicus. There are so many ways that a powerful mage can start by at least avoiding being harmed by fighter (even one as mighty as Sarevok) and then launch his assault.
I have always assumed that Sarevok's magic resistance is basically a cheat by the devs.
That said, if there is some credible reason within the game world/2nd ed. DnD/Forgotten realms for Sarevok's MR, and he has it legitimately, Sarevok at least stands a chance. Even then, though, just as the PC in BG is able to whittle down his HP without magic, Irenicus would work out a way, no doubt.
Remember also that fighting Sarevok sans his underlings wouldn't be nearly as tough.
As both a character and a boss npc, Irenicus takes this. Don't get me wrong, Sarevok is a badass and fighting him was difficult. Naa, I kid I solo'd him with 20 hp left, no potions with my fighter. I mean, Irenicus wasn't mega hard; I just went up to him and sliced him so bad he went back to Faerun then back to hell again just to emphasis how badly owned he was - still harder than Sarevok though.
As a character Irenicus ranks as one of the top villains of all time with amazing lines, acting, and personality. There's not many villains I grow to -HATE-, but he did it. -Kidnap me and take my stuff -Torture me -Torture Imoen -Kidnap Imoen -Steal Imoen's soul -Steal my soul -Try to kill me
Most villains I'm indifferent to, but Irenicus? Incredible, one of the few villains who I genuinely hated and wanted to take down. However, as a raw badass Sarevok takes this one.
If it was simply a battle between the two, EASILY Irenicus. However, you have to think, this is a bar fight. So most likely drinking is involved and tempers are high. So right off the bat Irenicus loses his ability to cast spells like he does do to the effects of alcohol and Sarevok is HUGE. He would take down Irenicus in one punch.
Scroll Protection from Magic, Arrows of Dispeling. I hate how overpowered wizards and such are in BG2. At least there are some ways to heavily exploit their weaknesses. In a bar fight there is no way Irenicus could beat Sarevok. In a real fight Sarevok would only win if he is well-prepared, but then 9 out of 10 times.
Simple, Irenicus uses Chain Contigency, Absolute Immunity. Then casts Time Stop, drops a few Lower Resistances, and proceeds to Magic Missile Sarevok to death.
I way, way prefer Sarevok as a character, and I view Irenicus more as a child throwing a temper tantrum than a "badass," but plain and simple Irenicus would win.
Then casts Time Stop, drops a few Lower Resistances, and proceeds to Magic Missile Sarevok to death.
Why even bother ? Once Jon casts Time Stop, the fight is as good as over. There's not much Sarevok can do against Imprison. Alright, it's only a temporary measure against anyone but Charname, so your point is still valid I guess...
It also depends what version of Sarevok we are talking about. The vanilla BG version with no ToTSC installed, he had 100% magic resistance!!! So Irenicus would be useless.
It also depends what version of Sarevok we are talking about. The vanilla BG version with no ToTSC installed, he had 100% magic resistance!!! So Irenicus would be useless.
You defeat wizards by attacking them - not by enduring their spells. If he can't prevent Irenicus from casting, he will just die.
1. If Sarevok would have beaten the PC at the end of BG 1, then he would have been in that dungeon at the beginning of BG 2. He also would have had nobody like Imoen to help him escape!
2. 'You will suffer! You will all suffer!' Irenicus casts Wish!
3. Finally, after a long and bloody battle that leaves him near death, Sarevok delivers the killing blow, and Irenicus' decapitated body slumps to the floor. Suddenly, the body vanishes in thin air, and Sarevok realizes to his horror that he had been fighting the mage's Projected Image the whole time!
4. Irenicus Gates in a pit fiend that then proceeds to slaughter everything in sight. Sarevok dies, the bartender dies, the waitress dies...everybody except Irenicus and that blasted high and mighty paladin who is always there but doesn't drink dies.
5. Irenicus casts Polymorph Self and transforms into a Mustard Jelly. 'Do you even know whom you face?!'
6. Sarevok hits Irenicus, and then Irenicus' Minor Spell Sequencer, Spell Sequencer, Spell Trigger, Contingency and Chain Contingency all go off at once, instantaneously launching Magic missile, Chromatic Orb, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Frost Storm, Cloudkill, Chain Lightning, Sunfire, Delayed Blast Fireball, Incendiary Cloud, Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting...and Stinking Cloud. No one survives.
7. Irenicus casts Tenser's Transformation and then becomes a level 40 fighter. He then draws his Black Blade of Disaster.
8. 'Enough! I haven't the time for this!' Irenicus casts Timestop.
Actually, if one of them is likely to end up crying in their beer it won't be Sarevok. It'll be Irenicus collapsing into a crying jag about his lost love. Advantage Sarevok, lol.
Sarevok's magic resistance could actually make a quick fight of it if they're both drunk. Earlier I gave the advantage to Irenicus because despite Sarevok's MR, I believe Irenicus would manage to both protect himself and keep Sarveok occupied until Irenicus caqme up with a winning strategy. Providing of course that he can hold his liquor!
The outcome of a fight between these two would depend greatly on who managed to strike first, and on the environment they were fighting in. I think that as long as Irenicus had even a second to react, he would have a Contingency with a huge array of defenses activated, and could do a Time Stop, then use Improved Alacrity with several Spell Triggers to overwhelm and kill Sarevok the next second after the Time Stop.
However, Sarevok knows that Irenicus can do these things, and Sarevok is not just a brute - he is a military and diplomatic genius. He would be too smart to simply attack Irenicus face to face. Instead, he would spend months plotting exactly how to defeat Irenicus, just as Charname does in the game. He would send waves of minions and even small armies of city-states, tricked into attacking Irenicus, and weakening him.
He isn't an egomaniac, either. He would not confront Irenicus alone, just as he confronted neither Gorion nor Charname's party alone, even though he could probably win by himself. Ninety percent odds of victory aren't enough for Sarevok. He doesn't attack with his considerable melee prowess until he is sure he can win.
Irenicus, on the other hand, IS an egomaniac, and prone to careless mistakes. I'm reminded of Luke's quote to the Emperor in "Return of the Jedi" - "Your overconfidence is your weakness."
So, I think Irenicus would win in a fair fight, but Sarevok would most certainly never allow him to have that fair fight. Bottom line, my opinion is that Sarevok's form of Lawful Evil, genius-without-egomania villainy is more effective than Irenicus' form of villainy. Irenicus wins battles, but Sarevok wins wars.
Comments
Has anyone made a mod that lets you watch NPC's fight it out?
On a silly note add more fights: Tag team fighting-
Kelban & Elminster vs Shangalar & Kangaxx
The hilarious part was that in the very first few pages of the Player's Handbook it states to the reader that D&D is what you make of it and the contents herein should only be used as guidelines. In other words, D&D never had set-in-stone rules.
Personally, I imagined an actual fight, in a tavern between Sarevok and Irenicus. Sarevok would kill Irenicus very quickly with his bare hands. If they were in the wilderness, facing off at a distance, clearly Irenicus would be the strong favourite.
If stats are disregarded, then there's nothing to base any of this on, and the whole topic is pointless.
It becomes a topic of who "looks like" they should win in a fight. That's like saying, will Drizzt or Algernon win in a fight? If there are no stats, then you'd probably say Algernon, he probably weighs twice as much as Drizzt. But that's obviously ridiculous.
And in the example you listed, I'd actually favour Drizzt and that decision has squat-all to do with his 'stats.' Going by your logic, any tall, muscled guy could beat a black-belt martial artist in a face-off. Such comparisons are folly. Though having said that, again... it depends on circumstance.
A little girl armed with a cooking spatula could slaughter an experienced soldier, depending on the circumstance.
Your decision has everything to do with his "stats". You're only saying you favor Drizzt because you already know who he is. You know what he can do because you already know his stats. Without Drizzt's stats, you're basing your decision on nothing. And by stats, I don't just mean ability scores. Stats also include level, class, AC, Thac0, etc. If you don't look at stats, you're basically looking at a blank sheet with no information. You don't know any of his abilities, you don't know if he's level 1 or level 20. Choosing Drizzt over Algernon without knowing any of their abilities has no logic.
Sarevok was immune in BG1? Then, how Gorion take almost 100hp from his body?
And what Irenicus do in bar without some primitive protection spells already casted or ready to be casted with "casting time = immediately"
Of course Sarevok can kill Irenicus in some situations, but he could do this only by his might, Irenicus, instead, could do this many ways
I have always assumed that Sarevok's magic resistance is basically a cheat by the devs.
That said, if there is some credible reason within the game world/2nd ed. DnD/Forgotten realms for Sarevok's MR, and he has it legitimately, Sarevok at least stands a chance. Even then, though, just as the PC in BG is able to whittle down his HP without magic, Irenicus would work out a way, no doubt.
Remember also that fighting Sarevok sans his underlings wouldn't be nearly as tough.
I mean, Irenicus wasn't mega hard; I just went up to him and sliced him so bad he went back to Faerun then back to hell again just to emphasis how badly owned he was - still harder than Sarevok though.
As a character Irenicus ranks as one of the top villains of all time with amazing lines, acting, and personality. There's not many villains I grow to -HATE-, but he did it.
-Kidnap me and take my stuff
-Torture me
-Torture Imoen
-Kidnap Imoen
-Steal Imoen's soul
-Steal my soul
-Try to kill me
Most villains I'm indifferent to, but Irenicus? Incredible, one of the few villains who I genuinely hated and wanted to take down.
However, as a raw badass Sarevok takes this one.
In a bar fight there is no way Irenicus could beat Sarevok. In a real fight Sarevok would only win if he is well-prepared, but then 9 out of 10 times.
Simple, Irenicus uses Chain Contigency, Absolute Immunity. Then casts Time Stop, drops a few Lower Resistances, and proceeds to Magic Missile Sarevok to death.
I way, way prefer Sarevok as a character, and I view Irenicus more as a child throwing a temper tantrum than a "badass," but plain and simple Irenicus would win.
Yeah, that about sums it up.
1. If Sarevok would have beaten the PC at the end of BG 1, then he would have been in that dungeon at the beginning of BG 2. He also would have had nobody like Imoen to help him escape!
2. 'You will suffer! You will all suffer!' Irenicus casts Wish!
3. Finally, after a long and bloody battle that leaves him near death, Sarevok delivers the killing blow, and Irenicus' decapitated body slumps to the floor. Suddenly, the body vanishes in thin air, and Sarevok realizes to his horror that he had been fighting the mage's Projected Image the whole time!
4. Irenicus Gates in a pit fiend that then proceeds to slaughter everything in sight. Sarevok dies, the bartender dies, the waitress dies...everybody except Irenicus and that blasted high and mighty paladin who is always there but doesn't drink dies.
5. Irenicus casts Polymorph Self and transforms into a Mustard Jelly. 'Do you even know whom you face?!'
6. Sarevok hits Irenicus, and then Irenicus' Minor Spell Sequencer, Spell Sequencer, Spell Trigger, Contingency and Chain Contingency all go off at once, instantaneously launching Magic missile, Chromatic Orb, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Frost Storm, Cloudkill, Chain Lightning, Sunfire, Delayed Blast Fireball, Incendiary Cloud, Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting...and Stinking Cloud. No one survives.
7. Irenicus casts Tenser's Transformation and then becomes a level 40 fighter. He then draws his Black Blade of Disaster.
8. 'Enough! I haven't the time for this!' Irenicus casts Timestop.
9. Irenicus, 'KAME HAME HAME HAAAAAAA!' Oops, wrong setting.
10. Irenicus the motivational speaker. 'You have much untapped power.' 'Do you even realize your potential?'
Sarevok's magic resistance could actually make a quick fight of it if they're both drunk. Earlier I gave the advantage to Irenicus because despite Sarevok's MR, I believe Irenicus would manage to both protect himself and keep Sarveok occupied until Irenicus caqme up with a winning strategy. Providing of course that he can hold his liquor!
However, Sarevok knows that Irenicus can do these things, and Sarevok is not just a brute - he is a military and diplomatic genius. He would be too smart to simply attack Irenicus face to face. Instead, he would spend months plotting exactly how to defeat Irenicus, just as Charname does in the game. He would send waves of minions and even small armies of city-states, tricked into attacking Irenicus, and weakening him.
He isn't an egomaniac, either. He would not confront Irenicus alone, just as he confronted neither Gorion nor Charname's party alone, even though he could probably win by himself. Ninety percent odds of victory aren't enough for Sarevok. He doesn't attack with his considerable melee prowess until he is sure he can win.
Irenicus, on the other hand, IS an egomaniac, and prone to careless mistakes. I'm reminded of Luke's quote to the Emperor in "Return of the Jedi" - "Your overconfidence is your weakness."
So, I think Irenicus would win in a fair fight, but Sarevok would most certainly never allow him to have that fair fight. Bottom line, my opinion is that Sarevok's form of Lawful Evil, genius-without-egomania villainy is more effective than Irenicus' form of villainy. Irenicus wins battles, but Sarevok wins wars.