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Why do mages get the better celestial summon than priests?

AureolAureol Member Posts: 53
in Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition
I know it's always been this way, not asking Beamdog to change anything, etc., etc., but why did mages get Planetars, whereas priests get Devas? Is there some lore reason behind it? Shouldn't those that specialize in divine magic (mostly clerics, but druids by extension) know how to summon the greater celestial being?

At least druids get elemental princes to kinda make up for it. Maybe I'm just bitter because arcane users are already so overpowered, and I'm a cleric at heart :(

Comments

  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I don't think it has anything to do with lore, so much as mechanics. Mages get 9th level spells, while clerics only get 7th. So, since the HLAs are sort of an extra spell level above that, and clerics start from a lower baseline, their stuff is weaker. And yeah, I totally agree that that's dumb on multiple levels, but that's how it is.
  • Tad_Has_A_Cold_OliveTad_Has_A_Cold_Olive Member Posts: 183
    The Dark Planetar that an Evil CHARNAME summons could very well be one of Bhaal's personal divine servitors who has sworn allegiance to one who could very well become the next God of Murder.

    As for a Good CHARNAME, a Planetar could very well find one who has spurned evil despite having evil bred into him a worthy person to follow.
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 3,075
    subtledoctor said:

    Question is, why do mages get celestial summons to begin with?? The classic mage summons is a demon, bound by some arcane contract to do the summoner's will. Summoning a Pit Fiend should be the wizard HLA summon. Good priests should summon Devas and, later, Planetars. And evil priests should summon some kind of powerful undead.

    But if mages can summon creatures from the lower planes, why shouldn't they be able to summon creatures from the upper planes as well?
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,723
    Aureol said:

    Why do mages get the better celestial summon than priests?

    Why do I live in such a pissant town?

    It just happens, I guess.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    OlvynChuru said:

    subtledoctor said:

    Question is, why do mages get celestial summons to begin with?? The classic mage summons is a demon, bound by some arcane contract to do the summoner's will. Summoning a Pit Fiend should be the wizard HLA summon. Good priests should summon Devas and, later, Planetars. And evil priests should summon some kind of powerful undead.

    But if mages can summon creatures from the lower planes, why shouldn't they be able to summon creatures from the upper planes as well?
    Because they've made pacts with the Devils/Demons? :'D
  • Tad_Has_A_Cold_OliveTad_Has_A_Cold_Olive Member Posts: 183
    CrevsDaak said:

    OlvynChuru said:

    subtledoctor said:

    Question is, why do mages get celestial summons to begin with?? The classic mage summons is a demon, bound by some arcane contract to do the summoner's will. Summoning a Pit Fiend should be the wizard HLA summon. Good priests should summon Devas and, later, Planetars. And evil priests should summon some kind of powerful undead.

    But if mages can summon creatures from the lower planes, why shouldn't they be able to summon creatures from the upper planes as well?
    Because they've made pacts with the Devils/Demons? :'D
    Oh, great, more Cowled Wizard propaganda! This is why we can't have nice things in Amn, you know.
  • dementeddemented Member Posts: 388
    Because Mages are pimp.

    image
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    subtledoctor said:

    Question is, why do mages get celestial summons to begin with?? The classic mage summons is a demon, bound by some arcane contract to do the summoner's will. Summoning a Pit Fiend should be the wizard HLA summon. Good priests should summon Devas and, later, Planetars. And evil priests should summon some kind of powerful undead.

    I suspect that the fear of the game developers was that a "Role Played" good wizard would not make use of even a compelled Demon or Devil, at least in some players eyes (I am not saying I agree with this, merely that some might, or merely that the Devs thought that some might). Therefore the idea was probably to make something that was palatable to those types of players.

    On the cheekier side of things, I suspect that Wizards get the stronger summonables in this instance because they compel the higher (or lower) beings to appear rather than appealing to them. It's easier to force than to beg as it were (this is all in fun so don't go taking this seriously in any degree).

    We now rejoin our regularly scheduled silliness in progress.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    edited December 2014
    Wizards master the secrets of the universe, they can control the flow of time, imprison one being in an interdimensional space for all eternity, kill everyone with a scream, summon huge freaking comets from the sky to crush their enemies, etc. They also gain vast understanding of the planes of existence, an unparalelled knowledge about both upper and nether planes. Thus they can find ways to gate in more powerful beings.

    Clerics on the other hand, can create miracles but they are limited to what their gods offer to them and allow them to do. And gods do not offer planetars or solars to mere mortals for service, not even for the most devout worshippers. Devas are okay, though. Priests beg from their gods and can go up to Deva statue for summoned allies. Mages covet more power and they are able to grasp it with their own ambitious powers, hence planetars are bound to serve them. Gods may not be happy with this but as long as the planetar summon aids the general alignment of the god, they allow it. (Hence, evil wizards get evil planetars and vice versa) Solars are high untouchable by them, however, at least for now. (And a good thing, too, solars are beasts even when compared to all mighty planetars. 2d20+16 damage with four attacks? Can create arrow of slaying for any creature? If a solar hits the target dies. Just like that.)

    All flavour aside, game balance dictates that wizards always get the more powerful and flashy spells, while clerics have better armor, weapon selection, hit points, fighting ability, and are more resilient to pain, poison and insta death with an amazingly better save vs death category, which mages are horrible at.
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 3,075
    CrevsDaak said:

    OlvynChuru said:

    subtledoctor said:

    Question is, why do mages get celestial summons to begin with?? The classic mage summons is a demon, bound by some arcane contract to do the summoner's will. Summoning a Pit Fiend should be the wizard HLA summon. Good priests should summon Devas and, later, Planetars. And evil priests should summon some kind of powerful undead.

    But if mages can summon creatures from the lower planes, why shouldn't they be able to summon creatures from the upper planes as well?
    Because they've made pacts with the Devils/Demons? :'D
    I don't mean a specific mage; I mean mages in general. Obviously someone who summons creatures from the lower planes won't be summoning creatures from the upper planes, but it should be possible for mages to do the latter if mages are able to do the former. Also, summoned fiends in the IE games aren't really bound; the mage who summons them can't directly command them. Regardless of pacts, if a mage has ways of planeshifting a demon from the Abyss to the Prime Material Plane, that mage probably also has the power to bring forth celestial beings, even if he/she doesn't like to.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited December 2014
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • AureolAureol Member Posts: 53
    I like a lot of the answers in this thread; it has been insightful. I must say I primarily agree with @subtledoctor‌, as I find it hard to believe that mages can call on celestial beings who refuse to serve their own followers to such an extent, regardless of magical prowess. In my mind (I am ignorant of lore, so forgive my errors), if you can command Planetars, you almost certainly must be more powerful than they, and that basically means you are a god (appropriate for the charname in ToB, but ridiculous for any other mage).

    I'm also not sure how I feel about what you said, @lunar‌, as to me that implies it is detrimental to serve higher beings when you can just overpower them. Perhaps mages are more powerful and *can* bind planetars, but I feel gods would be more inclined to ensure their servants had the best benefits and possibly punish mortals that abuse power and invade their realm. I dunno, that's just me :smile:
  • wubblewubble Member Posts: 3,156
    Extremely powerful beings can't stay in the realms(for example charname has to leave toril if s/he accepts Bhaal's power), maybe the more powerful the being the harder it is to create a portal to summon it with. This would explain why mages can summon more powerful ones as they can stabilise the rift and allow the creature to pass between realms. Or maybe it was just a balance issue...
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    Well one explanation is that they rushed ToB and didn't think anything through. :)
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