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Kits for BG1 NPCs

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  • GrandeCGrandeC Member Posts: 26
    edited August 2012
    @EpitomyofShyness

    What's the argument for making Garrick a blade? He always struck me as clumsy and weak-willed, especially in his BG2 appearance. I've honestly never been able to keep him alive in BG1 long enough to get to know him.
    Edit: I wanted to add that I agree with you that traditional bard suits him best.

    Post edited by GrandeC on
    DragonspearRoller12The_New_Romance
  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389

    Limited kit selection for NPCs might make sense, after all we've all played these games alot and have strong ideas about how these guys work - within a certain tolerance, we don't play identically I'm sure.

    Taking @Son_of_Imoen's preferences as an example (they are right in front of me) Ajantis could be described as a cavalier in a sort of real world sense of being a courtly knight but nothing about him suggests demon/ dragon hunter, to me.

    Alora likes stealing things but not fighting, something that swashbucklers excel at, I'd keep her as a pure thief as she likes to sneak and nick other people's stuff.

    Faldorn is definitely an avenger

    I'd go with @MilesBeyond on Garrick being a Jester as he is already a fool.

    People always seem to talk of Kivan as an archer, he speaks like a marksman (Clint as a gunfighter) and has the best archer portrait there is. But, I just think archers are too strong.

    Just because they have a bonus to dragons/demons doesn't mean they are dragon/demon hunters. I always saw the Cavalier kit more as the wayfaring knight as opposed to a classic Paladin who tends to be more order-bound. I realize the description says they are trained in classic knight foes, though.

    I'm all about Garrick being a Jester. At least it'd make him some semblance of not useless because as of now, he is literally the worst NPC in the game. He has a +2 Dex modifier, period. None of his other stats manages to make it into the black. The only thing I've ever managed to use Garrick for that was worthwhile is simply getting Drizzt up to the lake bed so I can shoot arrows at him to death. Garrick usually gets insta-gibbed into giblets.

    I kind of agree archers are overpowered. I've modded Kivan into one and hoo boy did he wreck. I ran out of arrows with him frequently and he was like 50% of my party's damage.

    Moomintroll
  • EpitomyofShynessEpitomyofShyness Member Posts: 113
    @GrandeC I personally think Garrick is a normal bard, however since as Sandman said his is completely useless and weak Blade seemed like the only one that could improve him, since he isn't a pick pocket person and I don't see him as a Jester. Also he never struck me as a Tall Blonde Noble Northerner which is what Skald's are.

    On another note I'm revising my estimation of several characters and appropriate kits.

    Coran - I still think Fighter/Thief is best, but the Bounty Hunter kit could be argued for.

    Minsc - I prefer him as a Ranger, but many good arguments have been made to change him to Barbarian.

    Safana - Could be changed to a Swashbuckler.

    GrandeC
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    @Mortianna Charlatan is a 2e kit from the Complete Book of Bards.

  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853

    At least it'd make him some semblance of not useless because as of now, he is literally the worst NPC in the game. He has a +2 Dex modifier, period. None of his other stats manages to make it into the black.

    Yeah, +2 Dex modifier, and his good Wisdom makes his lore even more nice and peachy for a bard. But that's absolutely pathetic, I agree he sorely needs some form of buff ... he's hilarious, I really wish I would have some incentive for EVER wanting to pick him up.

    On a related note, Eldoth isn't much better. I always tell people "run a bard first run of BG; you can find good Fighters, Thieves, Mages, Clerics, but never a good Bard. Enough said." Another good option is a single-class druid.

    Then of course, come BGII the only good option is a thief ... pfeh. Hope that gets fixed.

    I kind of agree archers are overpowered. I've modded Kivan into one and hoo boy did he wreck. I ran out of arrows with him frequently and he was like 50% of my party's damage.

    LOL, you know it's funny I had him in a mostly fighter-oriented party (there was Khalid and Jaheira in it as well), and he still hogged 53% when I got around to checking the stats. That's without Archer kit. WITH Archer kit ... well, that's just kind of a scary thought you're right. :)

  • EpitomyofShynessEpitomyofShyness Member Posts: 113
    Which is why Kivan should absolutely be an archer. I can't wait until NPC kit mod thing gets updated for BG:EE.

  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    LadyRhian said:

    @Mortianna Charlatan is a 2e kit from the Complete Book of Bards.

    That makes incorporating it into BG:EE all the more plausible!

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Aosaw said:



    Honestly, that first paragraph is a stronger argument for Minsc being a Barbarian than a Ranger. And in the second paragraph you call them berserkers... I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. ;)

    The land is uncivilized. The Rashemi themselves are not. Besides, nothing about the Barbarian class description in BG2 suggests it's anything other than a variant fighting style. It does not imply any woodsman skills like the Ranger description does.

    They're called Berserkers because they're called Berserkers. It's a caste in Rashemi society that exists in the game world. It has nothing to do with what the kit is called. A non-Rashemi Berserker would likely not be called a berserker by the average person, and the Berserker kitted character would likely not go around calling himself a berserker.
    Aosaw said:


    It would make more sense (and here I'm speaking as though we were designing the character from scratch, so suspend any preconceptions about Minsc having been a ranger already for the moment; I'm with you on that, but hear me out), for instance, to design the Berserker kit to fit the Rashemi traditions. "Berserker", after all, translates as "Bear Warrior"--it would be fitting, then, to give it some Wild Shape abilities in the mid- to high-level range, allowing Minsc, as a Berserker, to transform himself into a Bear.

    Actually, Berserker means "bear shirt," so termed because they wore bear pelt clothing. But, anyway, I can't agree with the idea of trying to form the whole kit around Rashemi Berserkers. Then what are non-Rashemi berserkers to do with themselves?
    Aosaw said:

    But looking at the character's personality, you kind of have to admit that Minsc in particular is a berserker first, and a ranger last. At best, he's a berserker with some non-weapon proficiencies in Animal Handling.

    I'd say the opposite, actually, Minsc is a Ranger who happens to have some Berserker training thanks to his lodge membership. I would also have to say that, given he can't control his rages once they're upon him, which is highly frowned upon in Rashemi society, I'd say his Berserker training is secondary to his Ranger training. This also conflicts with assigning him this kit, because the Berserker kit has complete control while raging.

    DragonspearEpitomyofShynessThe_New_Romance
  • MoomintrollMoomintroll Member Posts: 1,496
    edited August 2012
    I read a medieval saga once where someone turns into a whale on the battlefield.
    -I can't remember which one, a hamper of sturgeons to anyone who knows!

  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    Quartz said:

    At least it'd make him some semblance of not useless because as of now, he is literally the worst NPC in the game. He has a +2 Dex modifier, period. None of his other stats manages to make it into the black.

    Yeah, +2 Dex modifier, and his good Wisdom makes his lore even more nice and peachy for a bard. But that's absolutely pathetic, I agree he sorely needs some form of buff ... he's hilarious, I really wish I would have some incentive for EVER wanting to pick him up.

    On a related note, Eldoth isn't much better. I always tell people "run a bard first run of BG; you can find good Fighters, Thieves, Mages, Clerics, but never a good Bard. Enough said." Another good option is a single-class druid.
    I actually kind of like Eldoth. You pretty much HAVE to give him the gauntlets of dexterity but doing so turns him into a pretty capable archer. His poison arrows are pretty slick. Plus, you can sell them for a pretty penny which is bizarre but true. He's a cash-cow.

    Also, Garrick's wisdom means nothing. You don't gain a bonus to lore until 15. He literally ONLY gains ANY bonuses AT ALL from his Dexterity. You don't even gain a bonus discount from shops til 16 Charisma, which he is one short of.

    He is totally worthless. When ALORA is a better character than you, just... no. He's terrible.

    @Schneidend: I really wish I still had my 3e Forgotten Realms manual. It's in some box in my parent's house, but I swear on my life it mentions Rashemi warriors favor the Barbarian class. 3e Barbarians can take most nature-exploration-style skills as a Class rather than Cross-Class so he'd easily be able to take on the "ranger" type things he's capable of doing in BG were this a 3e game. Everything about him reeks of 3e Barbarian, except the animal companion. That's literally the only Ranger-style thing about him.

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    edited August 2012


    @Schneidend: I really wish I still had my 3e Forgotten Realms manual. It's in some box in my parent's house, but I swear on my life it mentions Rashemi warriors favor the Barbarian class. 3e Barbarians can take most nature-exploration-style skills as a Class rather than Cross-Class so he'd easily be able to take on the "ranger" type things he's capable of doing in BG were this a 3e game. Everything about him reeks of 3e Barbarian, except the animal companion. That's literally the only Ranger-style thing about him.

    None of that even existed when the character of Minsc was originally rolled up by his creator. They had the opportunity to change Minsc to a Barbarian in BG2, and they did not. He's a Ranger because he's not that good at berserking. The Berserker kit can control itself while enraged, while Minsc cannot. Killing an ally while raging is the gravest sin a Rashemi Berserker can commit. The penalty is to be sent out into the woods or on an impossible quest with a blunt sword to die. For whatever reason, this didn't happen, perhaps because Minsc has never accidentally killed anybody but the enemy during his rages, or the blows to the head that make Minsc so Minscy happened after he was sent on his dajemma. We don't know. All we know is that he is a Ranger, and not a Barbarian or Berserker, and the idea that his being a Ranger doesn't make sense is ridiculous. Personality traits don't define your class. A class is a set of talents and skills. You could have Imoen's personality and be a gorram Ranger and it would never "not make sense."

    DragonspearpoejjafersThe_New_Romance
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    edited August 2012

    I actually kind of like Eldoth. You pretty much HAVE to give him the gauntlets of dexterity but doing so turns him into a pretty capable archer. His poison arrows are pretty slick. Plus, you can sell them for a pretty penny which is bizarre but true. He's a cash-cow.

    Also, Garrick's wisdom means nothing. You don't gain a bonus to lore until 15. He literally ONLY gains ANY bonuses AT ALL from his Dexterity. You don't even gain a bonus discount from shops til 16 Charisma, which he is one short of.

    He is totally worthless. When ALORA is a better character than you, just... no. He's terrible.

    Yeah, and I might consider doing that sometime, but someone else always takes precedence with those gauntlets ... usually Kagain, Yeslick, or Edwin.
    I didn't mean he got a bonus, I just mean he doesn't get any penalties, which start fairly soon as I recall (something like 8 or 9 Wisdom? idk). As Wisdom is pretty much the only dump stat for Bards, I figured it was worth mentioning.

    Dragonspear
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    @Schneidend
    Okay, so it makes sense to you. Clearly, not everyone feels that way. I guess we're all just ridiculous, then. ;)

    In any case, I'm not saying Minsc should be rewritten as a Berserker. I'm a fan of keeping continuity. Xan's more or less the only case where I think his class makes no difference and would be better suited as a fighter/mage or even Kensai (with kits involved). Other than that, all of the NPCs are pretty much set in their mechanics, from a story perspective.

    I'm just saying, with everything I know about Minsc, his abilities, his personality, and the fact that he frequently loses his temper and flies into a berserker rage, I would peg him as a berserker, not a ranger. I don't believe this thread is calling for any actual change; just speculation. That's what I'm doing.

    Sheesh; you'd think I'd have said he should be an Illusionist/Thief, or something. :P

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Well, that's fine, but I think you've failed to address a key point of mine. Minsc can't control his rages, while the Berserker and Barbarian kits can. If we made him a special version of the Berserker or Barbarian that goes yellow on Enrage use, he'd be even more of a danger than he is in his normal canon rage. Also, he'd be giving up some things like free dual-wield proficiency, wearing plate mail, favored enemy, and ranged weapons for a rage ability he can't control. Pretty serious drawbacks, I'd say.

  • MilesBeyondMilesBeyond Member Posts: 324
    As I believe I've said elsewhere, I've always pictured Minsc as being a formerly wise guardian of nature who's addled his brains through too many bumps to the head. I don't really know how that fits in with Rasheman or whatever, but to me it's always made sense (explains his illegal WIS score, too!).

    IIRC a couple of dialogues between him and Jaheira in BG2 cast him as a protector of nature... of sorts

    SchneidendEpitomyofShyness
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,309

    Well, that's fine, but I think you've failed to address a key point of mine. Minsc can't control his rages, while the Berserker and Barbarian kits can. If we made him a special version of the Berserker or Barbarian that goes yellow on Enrage use, he'd be even more of a danger than he is in his normal canon rage. Also, he'd be giving up some things like free dual-wield proficiency, wearing plate mail, favored enemy, and ranged weapons for a rage ability he can't control. Pretty serious drawbacks, I'd say.

    If devs had actually given Minsc some sort of truly uncontrolled berserking in-game (i..e., similar in effect to the game's cursed two-handed sword), I can't imagine he would have been as popular as he became. I'm sure the devs realized that, so they made his berserker rage controllable by the player as a special ability. Just saying that if BG was a work of fiction only, and not a computer game, it doesn't sound like Minsc would really have control over his rages. Which makes him a loose cannon, and dangerous to have aboard.

    A mod that initially has Minsc's berserker rages occur randomly but offering a quest to find a way for him to bring it under control might be fun.

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    edited August 2012
    @Schneidend
    Actually, I would say that Minsc's uncontrollable rage would be something that he initiates as a result of Dynaheir dying, or something similarly traumatic. Then I would also give him a Berserker Rage (from the kit) that the player can initiate, which allows Minsc to be in control of his actions.

    The two can be separate; just because Minsc occasionally loses control of himself doesn't mean that he can't control himself other times.

  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,835
    I thought Minsc also had a special berserk ability if you hit F12. I seem to remember it rather clearly

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    He does, but it causes him to turn yellow, as Schneidend pointed out.

  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389


    None of that even existed when the character of Minsc was originally rolled up by his creator.

    I'm glad you opened up your argument with this statement because that's what I've been saying all along.

    AND since he was already a ranger when BG2 come out, keep him as one for continuity. I'm okay with that.

    I'm just saying, according to Forgotten Realms lore in the post-Baldur's Gate video games world, Minsc would be a Barbarian by class. Possibly multi-classed with a few minor levels in ranger, but still mostly a Barbarian.

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    @Lemernis
    ...He WAS given an uncontrollable rage ability. Sure, you the player get to click it whenever you please, but once you do he turns yellow as though he were confused, and attacks the nearest character regardless of allegiance. And, if Dynaheir dies in his presence, he triggers the ability on his own.

    @sandmanCCL
    If they made a 3E Baldur's Gate sequel with Minsc in it, I'd probably be the first one to suggest changing Minsc to a Barbarian. Make him a bit more wizened and reserved, to go along with the growth of a controlled rage. I just think that, within the confines of the original BG franchise he needs to remain a Ranger. Among other things, would get a little weird when he constantly mutters "Full plate and packing steel" while being restricted to splint mail.

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,309

    @Lemernis
    ...He WAS given an uncontrollable rage ability. Sure, you the player get to click it whenever you please, but once you do he turns yellow as though he were confused, and attacks the nearest character regardless of allegiance. And, if Dynaheir dies in his presence, he triggers the ability on his own.

    Thanks, long time since I played.

  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 692
    First of all, I don't think /every/ NPC needs to be given a kit just because the option is available. I think this feature should still be used sparingly. My thoughts are:

    Eldoth: Skald
    Kivan: Archer
    Safana: Bounty Hunter (I think she's more interested in making money than necessarily being a pirate)
    Shar-Teel: Berserker
    Minsc: Barbarian (I know a lot of people prefer him as a Ranger, but insofar as the fact that the protector of Rashemi witches are Barbarians, the only reason I see him as a Ranger is because Barbarian wasn't available when BG1 was first created)

    The_New_Romance
  • hansolohansolo Member Posts: 136
    edited August 2012


    - Dynaheir as a Diviner (occasionally I straight up turn her into a Cleric to dual-class into a mage when I feel like being a major Forgotten Realms nerd)

    Actually, you can legally dual her into an Invoker->Cleric, after giving her 2 Wisdom Tomes :).

    Quartz
  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    @hansolo: I'm aware, but those tomes are MINE! :D

    hansoloDragonspear
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    @sandmanCCL I do the same thing with Cloud in Final Fantasy VII. You gotta protect your investment, after all.

    Dragonspear
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    hansolo said:


    - Dynaheir as a Diviner (occasionally I straight up turn her into a Cleric to dual-class into a mage when I feel like being a major Forgotten Realms nerd)

    Actually, you can legally dual her into an Invoker->Cleric, after giving her 2 Wisdom Tomes :).

    Xzar does it better.

  • hansolohansolo Member Posts: 136
    @Quartz
    Yeah, but with a Dex Tome a Necromancer->Thief fits his character better ;)

  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    hansolo said:

    @Quartz
    Yeah, but with a Dex Tome a Necromancer->Thief fits his character better ;)

    Exactly ... Xzar is a beast because you have so many options with that guy. Plus he probably has the best soundset of them all.

    hansolo
  • beerflavourbeerflavour Member Posts: 116
    edited September 2012
    Lemernis said:

    ...
    If devs had actually given Minsc some sort of truly uncontrolled berserking in-game (i..e., similar in effect to the game's cursed two-handed sword), I can't imagine he would have been as popular as he became. I'm sure the devs realized that, so they made his berserker rage controllable by the player as a special ability.
    ...

    Well, if you want are more uncontrollable Minsc raging through the woods then you just have to make him a special gift. A new shiny magic two-hander. ,)

    Dragonspear
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