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Underpowered mage schools

I want to play a mage that isn't too overpowered mid/late game in bg2.
What school should I choose to nerf myself the most?

typo_tillyGenryu

Comments

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,198
    Depends on your setup. Whatever does NOT give you the most powerful spells for your specific party makeup. Often it will be things like Improved Haste, but it may also be other spells.

    However, there are so many good spells that it's probably difficult to NOT be powerful as any sort of mage in BG2 ;)

  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595
    If you go with Illusion, you lose Necromancy. Skull Trap, ADHW, Death Spell, etc. are necromancy.

    With going Enchanter, you would lose Evocation. Fireball, Chain Lightning or Magic Missile are in this school.

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,806
    The basic consensus is that Conjurers lose the least, while Transmuters lose the most. Necromancers also lose a lot. @Alesia_BH has shown that even Transmuters have lots of options, however.

    The biggest losses for each school:

    Divination:
    Glitterdust, Melf's Acid Arrow, Flame Arrow, Invisible Stalker, Power Word: Stun, Power Word: Blind, Maze, Symbol: Stun
    -The best single-target damage spells and some of the disablers

    Conjuration:
    Identify, Farsight, True Seeing
    -No ability to remove invisibility

    Illusion:
    Vampiric Touch, Skull Trap, Spirit Armor, Animate Dead, Death Spell, Finger of Death, Horrid Wilting
    -The best area-effect damage spells, and one of the best summons

    Necromancy:
    Blindness, Invisibility, Blur, Mirror Image, Improved Invisibility, Mislead, Project Image, Simulacrum
    -The best escape spells, and all clones

    Enchantment:
    Magic Missile, Chromatic Orb, Shield, Web, Stinking Cloud, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Ice Storm, Cloudkill, Sunfire, Cone of Cold, Death Fog, Chain Lightning, Mordenkainen's Sword, Incendiary Cloud, and sequencers, contingencies, and Spell Trigger
    -Most damage spells, and one of the best summons

    Evocation:
    Charm Person, Hold Person, Greater Malison, Emotion, Chaos, Feeblemind
    -The best disablers

    Transmutation:
    Protection from Petrification, Minor Spell Deflection, Spell Thrust, Secret Word, Minor Globe of Invulnerability, Breach, Spell Immunity, Spell Shield, Spell Deflection, Protection from Magical Weapons, Protection from Magical Energy, Pierce Magic, Spell Turning, Pierce Shield, Spellstrike
    -The best defensive spells, and almost all debuffers

    Abjuration:
    Haste, Slow, Stoneskin, Teleport Field, Polymorph Self, Disintegrate, Improved Haste, Ruby Ray of Reversal, Time Stop, Shapechange
    -The best party buffs, some of the best defensive spells, and Time Stop

    If you want a mage that's not overpowered in the late game, then that's probably an Abjurer or Transmuter, or maybe Necromancer if you often summon clones.

    typo_tillyNoonJuliusBorisov
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,198
    Are Invokers still locked out of TWO schools instead of one in the EE? I so rarely run with specialists...

    If so, they might be the worst, followed by Transmuter and Abjurer.

    But it really depends on your party setup and your play style. Me, I don't really use damage spells at all, for example. Fireballs? Pff who needs that when you can Haste all your fighters and slashhack everything to death. But that's just me, if you like slinging spells left and right things will be different for you.

    semiticgoddesstypo_tilly
  • FrancoisFrancois Member Posts: 452
    edited June 2015
    I think it ends up being pretty equivalent, especially if you have other spellcasters in the party that can complement. Also I think you can still use spells from scrolls/wands from your opposite school. I think a non-specialist is the least powerful because you have 1 less spell/level.

    A wild mage is an interesting choice. It's quite powerfull but anything can go wrong. Adding randomness is one way to make you more cautious. That would probably be the most unlikely class to succeed in a no-reload challenge: you can turn yourself to stone by accident or gate a demon in your face (this last one happened to me in BG1 during the wyvern ambush it was not exactly helpfull. Wild surges even affects your bhaalspawn abilities so you might cast fireball on a friend when trying to heal them.

  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702
    No, I think they gave invokers only one opposing school in EE.

    Without spell debuffs, I'd think transmuter would be the more difficult specialist to use. You'd pretty much need a second mage in the party to debuff enemy mages.

    AstroBryGuyJuliusBorisov
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,806
    @Lord_Tansheron has a point. There are means of overcoming these weaknesses, and though it doesn't speak to the power of a specialist that it needs another party member to cover its weak points, it's worth pointing out that a party with a specialist isn't completely locked out of the specialist's opposition school.

    Diviners loses single-target disablers and damage spells, but retains access to area-effect disablers and damage spells. Replace Flame Arrow with Skull Trap, and Power Word: Blind with Symbol Stun.

    Conjurers can cast Identify via the Glasses of Identification, and Farsight or True Seeing via the Book of Daily Spell. Likewise, a cleric or druid can cast Farsight or True Seeing instead, and a thief can do Farsight-equivalent scouting and use Detect Illusions in lieu of True Seeing.

    Illusionists can cast Fireball instead of Skull Trap, which has a larger area of effect than Skull Trap, and Incendiary Cloud instead of Horrid Wilting, which does more damage than Horrid Wilting. Likewise, Illusionists can use Mordenkainen's Sword instead of Animate Dead, and party clerics can still cast Animate Dead.

    Necromancers can still escape combat with Potions of Invisibility, and Stoneskin and PFMW can still keep weapons off of their backs.

    Enchanters still have tons of damage spells, including Skull Trap, Flame Arrow, Incendiary Cloud, and Horrid Wilting, and can use Skeleton Warriors instead of Mordenkainen's Sword. They also can use offensive damage wands.

    Invokers can still disable enemies with Spook, Web, Stinking Cloud, Power Word: Stun, Power Word Blind, and Symbol Stun. Party clerics still have Greater Command, and party druids still have Insect Plague, both of which are excellent at disabling enemies.

    Transmuters still can protect themselves with Stoneskin and Teleport Field, and Polymorph Self can grant immunity to magic. Also, the Wand of Spell Striking can debuff enemy spellcasters.

    Abjurers still have weapon immunity spells and spell protections to defend themselves, and Mirror Image to block attacks, and Improved Alacrity is a viable replacement for Time Stop.

    It's easy to see a class' weaknesses, and overlook the ways the player could overcome them.

    typo_tilly
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    I agree with Francois. Wild mage with no reloading due to spells, unless it kills Charname. Cast a spell and half your good vanishes. A cow falls from the sky, killing 12 commoners and making your reputation 1.

    Every spell becomes something you worry a little bit about. It is overpowered and dangerous to use, which is great fun.

    (I did a no reload run with neera in my group. An exploding cow exploded my reputation. It was awesome, but it hurt.)

    JuliusBorisovYannir
  • LoldrupLoldrup Member Posts: 291

    Without spell debuffs, I'd think transmuter would be the more difficult specialist to use. You'd pretty much need a second mage in the party to debuff enemy mages.

    Or a thief with high 'Detect Illusion'?

    Then I should try a transmuter -> thief dual one day. Guaranteed to not be overpowered!

    typo_tilly
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Nah, Detect Illusion only dispels illusions. Those are the only buffs a transmuter can debuff anyway, through True Seeing. Now, conjurers on the other hand synergize extremely well with thieves, because illusions are the spells they have the most difficulty with.

    typo_tilly
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 21,622

    Are Invokers still locked out of TWO schools instead of one in the EE? I so rarely run with specialists...

    @Lord_Tansheron and @semiticgod Invoker's opposed school in the EEs is Enchantment only.

    For the list of spells that specialist mages miss, check http://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/27687/specialists-list-of-forbidden-spells

    As fo using a specialist mage, I think @Genryu has found one of the funniest ways - you use spells of only your school. This way playing a necromancer, for example, becomes amazingly fun. Check http://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/40810/completed-pure-necromancer-solo-challenge-restricted-to-using-only-necromancy-spells#latest

    Although I woudn't dare try a Diviner run this way:)

    semiticgoddessGenryutypo_tilly
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,214
    edited June 2015
    bengoshi said:



    Although I woudn't dare try a Diviner run this way:)

    I don't see why not. No enemy could stand up to your Know Alignment and True Sight assaults :D

    semiticgoddesstypo_tilly
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,214
    edited June 2015
    (3 seconds after meeting Melissan charname casts Know Alignment on her)

    CHARNAME: Melissan...I know that you are evil. Surrender, lest I be forced to pummel you with castings of True Sight.

    MELISSAN: No! My plan is ruined. I had thought that since the 5 other successful Bhaalspawn never thought of casting a basic level 2 spell on me that I was in the clear!

    Nah I'm just joking. She's technically considered to be "Lawful Good" when you meet her. I guess she hides her alignment.


    Anyways, as far as a challenge goes I would go either the Transmuter or the Wild Mage.

    typo_tillyJuliusBorisov
  • GenryuGenryu Member Posts: 372
    bengoshi said:

    As fo using a specialist mage, I think @Genryu has found one of the funniest ways - you use spells of only your school. This way playing a necromancer, for example, becomes amazingly fun. Check http://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/40810/completed-pure-necromancer-solo-challenge-restricted-to-using-only-necromancy-spells#latest

    Although I woudn't dare try a Diviner run this way:)

    Yeah, I've had a blast restricting myself in this way, it adds a new challenge and unique flavor to your playthrough, requiring you to really think outside the box at times, when facing some of the tougher encounters. Its also fun being forced to use spells that you have probably never made use of before

    I enjoyed it so much that I'm currently running the same challenge through Icewind Dale.

    JuliusBorisov
  • GenryuGenryu Member Posts: 372
    Loldrup said:

    Without spell debuffs, I'd think transmuter would be the more difficult specialist to use. You'd pretty much need a second mage in the party to debuff enemy mages.

    Or a thief with high 'Detect Illusion'?

    Then I should try a transmuter -> thief dual one day. Guaranteed to not be overpowered!
    On the topic of debuffing enemy mages, don't forget you have access to the staff of the magi (Dispel magic upon hit), and from midgame the book of infinite spells, which can be used to cast True Sight.

    During my restricted playthrough, I had access to no debuff spells, but these two items served me well once I had obtained them.

    Jarrakulsemiticgoddesstypo_tillyJuliusBorisov
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    Iirc, it CAN have True Sight.

    semiticgoddessJuliusBorisov
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,583
    @Jarrakul it can have Spell Turning as well, amongst other things

    Overall, the most shitty specialized mage is the transmuter. I really don't get how one would do without remove magic, dispel magic, breach, all these offensive defense-breaking spells, without all those defensive spells (except stoneskin).
    And just behind transmuter is the abjurer.
    Both of them really lack key spells.

    The best would be Conjurer IMHO, for the only worth noticing spell he loses is true sight, and since Book of infinite spells and the Gem from Rasaad Quest allow him to have it this con is no longer one.

    semiticgoddessJuliusBorisov
  • GenryuGenryu Member Posts: 372
    edited June 2015
    Jarrakul said:

    Wait, the Book of Infinite Spells has True Sight? And here I've been wasting it on Fireball all these years. O_o

    Potential spells are:

    ◾Burning Hands
    ◾Farsight
    ◾Fireball
    ◾Invisibility
    ◾Lightning Bolt
    ◾Protection from Evil
    ◾Spell Turning
    ◾Stinking Cloud
    ◾True Seeing
    ◾Wyvern Call

    If you save your game as a precaution, before you begin to flick through the pages, then it shouldn't take long to unlock the spell you want.

    On solo runs I always settle for True Sight, Spell Turning is great and all, but by the time you get the book you are extremely close to obtaining a certain cloak in the Sahaguin city.

    semiticgoddessJuliusBorisov
  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595
    Playing an Invoker is pretty easy. You only really miss Greater Malison, which is totally optional.

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,583
    @Genryu that's true if you are playing as a mage.
    Spell turning from Book of Infinite spell is most useful when you are playing as a warrior or something like that. For example, on a Barbarian, it can tank two imprisonment, which is the only spell you really fear as a Barbarian.

    GenryuJuliusBorisov
  • GenryuGenryu Member Posts: 372
    edited June 2015
    I'm by no means knocking your choice of spell, for me its all dependent on personal preference and play style, so even if I was soloing a warrior class I would set true sight as my book spell, as I just get a lot more use out of it.

    The way I see it is, illusion magics such as invisibility, and mirror image are very, very common in the game, so its just very convenient having a way of mass dispelling them all.

    Imprisonment on the other hand is somewhat rare, I've played enough times now to typically know when and where I will likely encounter the spell, and so can prepare for it in advance by bringing along suitable protection in the form of green scrolls.

    If I were playing a no reload, or a cheese free game (no using protection from magic or undead scrolls, cloak of mirroring, shield of Balduran etc), then I would probably go for spell turning.

    JuliusBorisov
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