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Petition for Dead BGEE NPCs staying Dead in SoD

billbiscobillbisco Member Posts: 361
edited July 2015 in Feature Requests
In BGEE there are scripted sequences where: Viconia can be handed over to a Flaming Fist Officer, Dynaheir can be slain in battle by Edwin.

There are other combat situations where an NPC may be forcibly removed such as Imoen getting chunked at the Gnoll Stronghold and Kivan getting petrified by Basilisks.

CHARNAME should not transition from BGEE to SoD to suddenly find these dead NPCs suddenly alive and well. BG2EE is a separate game that may invalidate our earlier choices. SoD is a continuation of BGEE and the choices and happenings made in BGEE should stay.

If an NPC died in BGEE, they should not appear in SoD.
  1. Petition for Dead BGEE NPCs staying Dead in SoD40 votes
    1. BGEE NPCs who died should stay dead in SoD
      40.00%
    2. BGEE NPC who suffered scripted deaths should not appear in SoD but should appear in SoD if it was a non-scripted death
      22.50%
    3. BGEE NPC who suffered combat deaths should not appear in SoD but should appear in SoD if it was a scripted death
        0.00%
    4. Some BGEE NPCs should remain in SoD regardless of how they died, other Dead BGEE NPCs should stay dead in SoD
        7.50%
    5. BGEE NPCs should appear alive in SoD even if they died during BGEE
      20.00%
    6. It is difficult for me to decide
      10.00%

Comments

  • PaladinPaladin Member Posts: 335
    If it's doable, I think it would be cool for your actions in BG:EE to carry over into SoD, such as the state of the NPCs.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    @Ardanis would love the scripting involved in this one I'm sure. :p
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    Not going to happen.

    Once again for continuity reasons.

    It is also a magical realm where any do gooder (*cough* Elminister *cough*) could bring said corpse to a temple for raising. So any dead companion coming back can be explained by that. @elminster did it.

  • CalmarCalmar Member Posts: 688
    billbisco said:

    Viconia can be handed over to a Flaming Fist Officer, Dynaheir can be slain in battle by Edwin.

    Viconia is alive in BG2 and Dynaheir dies at Irenicus' hands, if I'm not mistaken. Hence I don't think the effort would be worth it.
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    edited July 2015
    I think anyone who gets "chunked" should stay dead, except for those who show up in BG2EE, but everyone else should be available.
    Probably not worth the effort though.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    I suspect only NPCs with a significant role to play will be recruitable from inside SoD. Other NPCs can be imported, but are othewise unavailable. Thus dead NPCs who are not plot-significant will stay dead.
  • kcwisekcwise Member Posts: 2,287
    They could just make use of the existing BG2 method, have a line when you meet them saying "Hey, I thought you were dead!" and they could then offer some vague explanation.
  • billbiscobillbisco Member Posts: 361
    kcwise said:

    They could just make use of the existing BG2 method, have a line when you meet them saying "Hey, I thought you were dead!" and they could then offer some vague explanation.

    It would really be nice if the developers ignored that silliness. BG2 didn't know what your BG1 actions were. SoD is a BGEE expansion and should know exactly what your actions were.
  • ArcanisArcanis Member Posts: 377
    The problem is just that many characters need to reappear in SoA, sooo they still need an explanation
    (and a raise dead).
    Remember: SoD wants to bridge BG & SoA AND wants to fill as many plotholes as possible!
  • billbiscobillbisco Member Posts: 361
    Arcanis said:

    The problem is just that many characters need to reappear in SoA, sooo they still need an explanation
    (and a raise dead).
    Remember: SoD wants to bridge BG & SoA AND wants to fill as many plotholes as possible!

    It is quite unnecessary and counterproductive to give a BG2 treatment to BG1EE. The OP already addressed this.
    billbisco said:

    I
    BG2EE is a separate game that may invalidate our earlier choices. SoD is a continuation of BGEE and the choices and happenings made in BGEE should stay.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    The only difference between SoD and BG2 is the characters can KNOW they have been rezzed. So, rather than having "I thought you where dead" as a dialogue line, they could start off with "Hi, I'm back, no thanks to you".
  • ArcanisArcanis Member Posts: 377
    billbisco said:

    Arcanis said:

    The problem is just that many characters need to reappear in SoA, sooo they still need an explanation
    (and a raise dead).
    Remember: SoD wants to bridge BG & SoA AND wants to fill as many plotholes as possible!

    It is quite unnecessary and counterproductive to give a BG2 treatment to BG1EE. The OP already addressed this.
    billbisco said:

    I
    BG2EE is a separate game that may invalidate our earlier choices. SoD is a continuation of BGEE and the choices and happenings made in BGEE should stay.

    I say it again: SoD is the bridge between BG and SoA. Its purpose is (aside from a good story and new areas ofc) is to conect this two games and fill plotholes, or specificly resurect everyone who is "needed" in SoA.
  • kcwisekcwise Member Posts: 2,287
    Actually, I can think of a better way to handle this. Since they brought back many of the original voice actors, perhaps they brought back the voice of Biff the Understudy as well. Have Biff ready to go to read all the dialog for all the potential characters! Then, if somebody got whacked (or for more fun and games if you soloed and killed EVERY NPC then your game will be filled with Biff clones), Biff can magically stand in and read their lines. Only this time he'll even get to join your party and (badly) attempt to fill the roles of the missing heroes. And hey, Biff is canon for the game, so it's all good.

    I can see it now! "We are all... uh... heroes... yes, that's it... heroes. You and Bill... um... Boo! You and Boo and I! Gerbils and Druids everywhere, rejoice! I think that's right... anyway, I'm just the understudy."
  • billbiscobillbisco Member Posts: 361
    Arcanis said:


    I say it again: SoD is the bridge between BG and SoA. Its purpose is (aside from a good story and new areas ofc) is to conect this two games and fill plotholes, or specificly resurect everyone who is "needed" in SoA.

    No one is "needed" to be alive in SoD for SoA. SoA already made several choices about what you did or did not do in BG1. The player can choose to play the canon BG2 party in BG1 and make the canon choices, or they can choose to act differently. SoD likewise can allow players to play the canon BG2 party or allow them to act differently. There is no need for the game to force you into canon choices that you didn't make in BGEE (most especially with Dynaheir and VIconia).

    @kcwise

    The best option I think is actually to have a replacement NPC say the lines and initiate/complete the quests instead of whatever BGEE NPC isn't carried over. i.e. Skie doesn't get captured, but someone else does. Imoen doesn't stay behind in the Prologue with the Healers, the Healer just says Imoen's lines instead.
  • ArcanisArcanis Member Posts: 377
    billbisco said:

    Arcanis said:


    I say it again: SoD is the bridge between BG and SoA. Its purpose is (aside from a good story and new areas ofc) is to conect this two games and fill plotholes, or specificly resurect everyone who is "needed" in SoA.

    No one is "needed" to be alive in SoD for SoA. SoA already made several choices about what you did or did not do in BG1. The player can choose to play the canon BG2 party in BG1 and make the canon choices, or they can choose to act differently. SoD likewise can allow players to play the canon BG2 party or allow them to act differently. There is no need for the game to force you into canon choices that you didn't make in BGEE (most especially with Dynaheir and VIconia).

    @kcwise

    The best option I think is actually to have a replacement NPC say the lines and initiate/complete the quests instead of whatever BGEE NPC isn't carried over. i.e. Skie doesn't get captured, but someone else does. Imoen doesn't stay behind in the Prologue with the Healers, the Healer just says Imoen's lines instead.
    ..You don't get what I am saying.
    SoD is an attempt to get rid of BG2 canon.
    Its main purpose is to explain how you end up in SoA cages with Imoen, Jaheira, Minsc and the corpses of
    Dynaheir and Khalid.
    It is NOT and was NEVER just an "expansion" of BGEE. It was originally planed to be stand-alone.
    If they keep track of killed characters (or chars that are send away and such) than they will most probably
    explain how they could reapear in SoA. They will not ignore SoA, because doing that would completly and
    utterly defeat its purpose.
    This is not BG:EEs Addon, it is Baldurs Gate 1.5. It is the bridge between BG1 and BG2.
    You will start with your canon and it will allow you to start SoA with Jaheira & Minsc without violating
    your "decisions" in BG1. That was the plan and the reasoning for using the "Baldurs Gate" title in the first
    place.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited July 2015
    I think you missed what Beamdog are actually trying to do with SoD. The whole raison d'etre for SoD is to fill up the gaps and tie up the loose ends between BG1 and BG2. It is their intention to explain how dead characters are alive again, how those particular characters happened to end up in that dungeon, how Imoen became a mage, how Safana and Coren became an item, and so on.

    Did they have to do it like that? No. But that is what they decided to do over a year ago, it's not going to change, the decision now rests with us to decide if we want to buy it or not.

    This is Beamdog's take on the story. If someone would prefer some other version, then there are plenty of mods about.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    No it was a planned expansion, which grew to the point of them thinking it could become a stand alone then they reeled themselves in.

    It was never attempt to get rid of he BG2 but to explain it.

    I would be surprised if they put flags in for every NPC to know if they are dead or sent away and wjen during the story they met their demise. There are too many varables to do it properly.
  • AramintaiAramintai Member Posts: 232
    I dunno, some of the characters end up alive in BG2 no matter what happens to them in BG1, so I'm thinking some of them will appear in SoD alive as well, like Imoen for example. Not sure about those BG1 characters who didn't make it to BG2, I guess devs can do whatever they want with them in SoD.
  • ArcanisArcanis Member Posts: 377
    deltago said:

    No it was a planned expansion, which grew to the point of them thinking it could become a stand alone then they reeled themselves in.

    It was never attempt to get rid of he BG2 but to explain it.

    I would be surprised if they put flags in for every NPC to know if they are dead or sent away and wjen during the story they met their demise. There are too many varables to do it properly.

    Sorry, my writing got away from me ^^
    I meant that it will eliminate the "BG2 canon" in the sense that it should make the events in SoA
    acceptable for every "BG1 canon". Maybe I can't articulate myself not good atm, sorry to warm here ;-)

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Let me explain it simple terms. There are certain fixed points in time and space that can never be changed without destroying the fabric of space-time itself. The beginning of Baldur's Gate 2 is one such point. The purpose of SoD is stabilise the continuum by ensuring that that fixed point is reached, whatever may have happened in Baldur's Gate 1.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    deltago said:

    Not going to happen.

    Once again for continuity reasons.

    It is also a magical realm where any do gooder (*cough* Elminister *cough*) could bring said corpse to a temple for raising. So any dead companion coming back can be explained by that. @elminster did it.

    Elminster actually has a powerful continguency-like spell called Elminster's Evasion that returns him to his own chillaxing (his words not mine I swear) safehold in the event that he is killed (where he will be resurrected/healed).
  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,847
    Petition to get you to stop making petitions, when?
  • gnaumiecgnaumiec Member Posts: 62
    Fardragon said:

    Let me explain it simple terms. There are certain fixed points in time and space that can never be changed without destroying the fabric of space-time itself. The beginning of Baldur's Gate 2 is one such point. The purpose of SoD is stabilise the continuum by ensuring that that fixed point is reached, whatever may have happened in Baldur's Gate 1.

    So its confirmed... after SoD the next leap will be the leap home?
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437
    Fardragon said:

    Let me explain it simple terms. There are certain fixed points in time and space that can never be changed without destroying the fabric of space-time itself. The beginning of Baldur's Gate 2 is one such point. The purpose of SoD is stabilise the continuum by ensuring that that fixed point is reached, whatever may have happened in Baldur's Gate 1.

    So, in other words, wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey... stuff. :lol:
  • ojthesimpsonojthesimpson Member Posts: 121
    I think it's stuff like this that make the game forgiven for being SOOOOO old. the game engine is older than my lost virginity. The first game is very immersion. the story feels like ur really are involved in something going on. No game has captured that quite like BG1 and 2. To have this stuff added to the game would be something that gives it a unique quality. It doesnt have to do voice acting for this, advanced graphic changes, cut scene video changes. It's much easier for this game to this kind of stuff.
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