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PnP justification for Blackguards being human only?

Okay, regular paladins i get. In adnd 2nd ed they were specifically a human order. But blackguards don't seem like an "official" order, just dudes who buddied up with demons. Is there any lore-based justification for why an elf or dwarf couldn't become a blackguard, or is this an engine limitation?

Comments

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Engine. Yup.
  • leeowensoasleeowensoas Member Posts: 81
    Dwarf defender is proof that kits can be racially coded. Can't they just open paladin to all classes and make the cav, inq., and UH kits (as well as vanilla paladin) be coded as human only?
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    Most cultures of surface elves frown upon dealings with planar beings of the Lower Planes. The most famous example for this would be the Hundred Years of Chaos. At that time, the sun elf House Dlardrageth decided to "strengthen" their lineage by mingling with tanar'ri. This gave birth to the Daemonfey half-fiends and the Fey'ri (basically tiefling elves). The other elven houses joined forces nearly wiped out all members of House Dlardrageth. Well, this leaves no wonder as to why the occupation of blackguards and demon worshipers are no dream jobs for elves in general. Drow are another matter altogether, though.

    Dwarves aren't really keen on the matter as well. Given the fact that shield dwarves, gold dwarves and duergar alike daily fight with planar invaders in their subterrean kingdoms. Closests thing on top of my head would be the Durzagon half-devils/half-duergars. Apparantly they're well respected in Duergar society since most of them are followers of Laduguer, not devil worshipers.

    Halflings have no ties with planars as far as I know. Same goes for gnomes.

    Both half-elves and half-orcs don't possess a cultural history to speak of. And calling half-orcs decendants from Tanarruks (orcish tieflings) would be a bit of a stretch.

    That only really leaves humans here. Many of the Old Empires had dealings with the outer planes (most prominet being the Empire of Narfell here).

    That being said, in the end it's more of a cultural thing then a racial one.
  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054
    That's pretty spurious. I think most of humanity would frown upon dealing with demons and the like. Blackguards are more one off loners rather than a cultural or institutionalised order.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Yeah, it's frowned upon does not conclude it never happens.
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    decado said:

    I think most of humanity would frown upon dealing with demons and the like.

    I see this opinion fairly often, but I think it's mostly caused by people looking at these realms from a real world perspective.

    In this world, almost every religion says there is no other religion, and the deity is a single good guy or a harmonious collection of good guys. Everyone thinks of themselves as good because there's no standing for evil and neutral is almost as bad to be seen as.

    In the realms, the evil deities are just as real as the good ones, have portfolios that lead some people to have no choice but to worship an evil deity, and they all agree that they all exist. If you work with the ocean, be you a merchant, marine or fisherman, you offer prayer and tokens to Zeboim, cause Habakuk is a lazy ass and she walks all over him. Heck, there are even nations that are described as predominately evil. You can be evil because there are large groups that are, and forces to protect you.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @SethDavis That may be, but it still does not explain why only humans may be blackguards.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @leeowensoas: Kits can be made specific to races, but only if the race is already capable of being a pure class. A dwarf can click on "Fighter" on character creation and therefore choose Dwarven Defender; a dwarf cannot click on "Paladin" and therefore cannot pick Blackguard.

    But you're right; there is a workaround. We'd just have to make the paladin class selectable by all races, but make the Paladin, Undead Hunter, Inquisitor, and Cavalier kits unique to humans. That way, any race could choose paladin on character creation, but only humans could choose the vanilla kits.
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812

    @SethDavis That may be, but it still does not explain why only humans may be blackguards.

    True enough, was just lightly countering a counterpoint.

    Unfortunately I cannot answer well to the main question. As I gave away in the other post, my experience comes mainly from Dragonalnce, where there are no demons and therefore no blackguards. The closest things they had were a couple of the Knights of Neraka, which served an evil goddess and sometimes had divine abilities. There weren't really paladins either.

    If I had to make a best guess I would say that other races are generally depicted as either being uniformly uninterested in their gods, or have made them a part of their daily lives to a greater extent than humans, making their worship more casual and united. Humans have so many options and are so hot tempered that it makes sense that they would devise a more militant role for their worship, primarily to enforce that religion against other humans.

    I'm curious, have Forgotten Realms ever had a holy war type thing occur within a single race other than humans?
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307

    @leeowensoas: Kits can be made specific to races, but only if the race is already capable of being a pure class. A dwarf can click on "Fighter" on character creation and therefore choose Dwarven Defender; a dwarf cannot click on "Paladin" and therefore cannot pick Blackguard.

    It's definitely possible to have a specific race only have a kit (not allowed access to base class)... Gnome Illusionist being the obvious example.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    SethDavis said:

    @SethDavis That may be, but it still does not explain why only humans may be blackguards.

    I'm curious, have Forgotten Realms ever had a holy war type thing occur within a single race other than humans?
    The elven crown wars.

    Here is the issue with "holy wars" in FR though, Gods actively participate in them and usually their followers are either just fodder, or don't necessarily participate in their name.

    Where RL "holy wars" it is more differentiating ideologies that are the driving the conflict instead of what some higher being said or envisioned.

    ~

    back on topic. Maybe only humans can be Blackguards because demons don't want to wait centuries to claim their elven soul. IIRC Humans are the shortest living playable race, so maybe that factors into the decision.
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    deltago said:

    SethDavis said:

    @SethDavis That may be, but it still does not explain why only humans may be blackguards.

    I'm curious, have Forgotten Realms ever had a holy war type thing occur within a single race other than humans?
    The elven crown wars.

    Here is the issue with "holy wars" in FR though, Gods actively participate in them and usually their followers are either just fodder, or don't necessarily participate in their name.

    Where RL "holy wars" it is more differentiating ideologies that are the driving the conflict instead of what some higher being said or envisioned.

    ~

    back on topic. Maybe only humans can be Blackguards because demons don't want to wait centuries to claim their elven soul. IIRC Humans are the shortest living playable race, so maybe that factors into the decision.
    Great reasoning. I think that I'll go with this for my head canon
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    deltago said:

    back on topic. Maybe only humans can be Blackguards because demons don't want to wait centuries to claim their elven soul. IIRC Humans are the shortest living playable race, so maybe that factors into the decision.

    Actually, half-orcs have shorter lifespans than humans. They're considered adults by the age of 12-14 and usually die around their 50's. I heard that the longest lived half-orcs only reach 75 years or so. That would be around 35 years shorter than a human's lifespan. It's not easy being green...
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
    edited October 2015
    If I remember right:

    The demonwebs novels is a war between Lloth and Eilastree, and thus literally a drow holy war amongst themselves.
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,352
    Isn't blackguards 'chosen' by their patron rather than when a cleric chose to follow a deity?

    In that case (if that is true) it could be argued that it's the demon's prejudice that make them choose predominately humans over other races, possibly due to what @deltago said. But then we have the issue of lifespans, as @kamigoroshi said, HO's have even shorter lifespans and would therefore be a better option, as well as, being overall stronger making them more suitable for killing and creating havoc.
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    Becoming a Blackguard also tends to shorten your lifespan appreciably anyway. Both because of stupid heroes and because fiends are assholes who will do everything in their power to get payoff on their investment as long as it doesn't outright break the contract. Ironic ends abound.

    @Kamigoroshi - There is a demon/halfling breed called Wisplings, if i recall correctly.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    I think it goes back as far as Tolkein--humans are easy to tempt with things like wealth and power, making them ideal targets for a demon or devil looking for servants. Half-Orcs are typically already under the yoke of one or more evil deities (Gruumsh comes to mind), removing them from play as potential pawns. Other races aren't as easy to tempt because they either live longer (and so aren't worth the investment of the demon's time and energy) or they have deities from their own pantheons that they already worship.

    Dorn being the exception to this: he's an outsider for both orcs and humans, and he's especially easy to tempt because of his thirst for vengeance.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Didn't all the races become corrupted by the rings in LotR
  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,768
    The elves took their's off as soon as they realized what was going on. The dwarves used their's to make start their treasure hordes, but were resistant to the corrupting effect.
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307
    edited October 2015
    BillyYank said:

    The elves took their's off as soon as they realized what was going on. The dwarves used their's to make start their treasure hordes, but were resistant to the corrupting effect.

    Actually, the Elven rings were never influenced by Sauron. They were worn and used and still remained unspoiled until they were taken into the West by Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf.
  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,768
    Yes, but only after Sauron had lost the One. While he had it, the Three were hidden away and unused.
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