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So which Dragon?

Ok, so I actually have @brus to thank for this question. Which Dragon in FR lorewise could be considered the equivalent of Nicol Bolas from magic the gathering?

brus

Comments

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,279
    Shouldn't his equivalent be Klauth, the oldest Red Dragon in the realms? As far as I know, Klauth is over 10.000 years old.

    YupImMadBro
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,866
  • YupImMadBroYupImMadBro Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 347
    I really doubt there's an equivalent. Bolas takes advantage of people (Planeswalkers) to do his bidding. I doubt most FR dragons would bother going out of their way to do so unless it's convenient for them.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,279
    KLAUTH: DRAGON OF THE NORTH
    Male red great wyrm dragon: CR 25;

    Colossal dragon (fire); 40HD hp 722; AC 46

    Spell-like abilities as a Sorcerer of level 32; AL CE; SV Fort
    +32, Ref +22, Will +30;

    Str 45, Dex 10, Con 31, Int 26, Wis 27, Cha 26.

    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Klauth

    YupImMadBrosemiticgodSmilingSword
  • YupImMadBroYupImMadBro Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 347
    DJKajuru said:

    KLAUTH: DRAGON OF THE NORTH
    Male red great wyrm dragon: CR 25;

    Colossal dragon (fire); 40HD hp 722; AC 46

    Spell-like abilities as a Sorcerer of level 32; AL CE; SV Fort
    +32, Ref +22, Will +30;

    Str 45, Dex 10, Con 31, Int 26, Wis 27, Cha 26.

    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Klauth

    Chaotic Evil and being extremely old match. Actually, being evil towards other dragons fits as well since he originally wiped all the dragons off of Tarkir when he destroyed Ugin (before Sarkhan went back in time and saved Ugin.)

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,993
    edited November 2015
    You get to kill Klauth in NWN... He isn't that tough... (not that this means much for this conversation...)

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,866
    @YupImMadBro
    Bolas does it to achieve his goal and is a meticulous planner, firkraag literally did the same thing in bg; but just for fun.

    @DJKajuru
    Yea, when I ask how strong someone is, I'm always talking lore and feat wise, not stats. I don't use game mechanics to judge a characters strength, especially when in comparison to someone who is from another game.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,279
    edited November 2015
    @DragonKing , in that case I'll go back to my first answer - he's a 10.000 year old red dragon.

    @Tresset , don't you think that Klauth was a bit too easy in NWN?

  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,531
    edited November 2015
    @DJKajuru where did you get information that Klauth is over 10.000 years old? It seems unlikely. I'd say 1500 would be more like it. Even an article at WoTC site from Wyrms of the North series don't specify his age. He's one of the larges red dragons in existence, yes, but I'm not sure if he's the oldest one and I'm certain he's not the most powerful from his kind (that would probably be Inferno or even some other great wyrm). Klauth is not an insanely powerful wizard who could prolong his life nor he decided to embrace lichdom, so unless he is in possesion of an artifact which is capable to extend his life indefinitely there's no way he could live that long. But if you found a canon source that'll prove me wrong please feel free to share.

    EDIT: I see he has a Wish spell in his repertoire which he could, in theory, use to prolong his life for a bit, but it's not specifed in official sources that he actually cast this spell to do just that.

    Post edited by Cahir on
  • lordkimlordkim Member Posts: 1,063
    edited November 2015
    i rather like the Astral Dragon from Dragonlance setting.. Its immortal ;)


    This is... by far... the most..... powerfull dragon...in all settings...

  • brusbrus Member Posts: 944
    The hardest battle in BG2 was with Draconis. The battle is harder that with Klauth in NWN. How come Draconis doesn't have some fancy unpronounceable name ?
    Dragon

    SmilingSword
  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,531
    brus said:

    The hardest battle in BG2 was with Draconis. The battle is harder that with Klauth in NWN. How come Draconis doesn't have some fancy unpronounceable name ?
    Dragon

    @brus, it may be that Draconis is not he's real name. It's not unknown for dragons to be called by their nicknames or just that their names are cut short (dragon Inferno is an excellent example, he's real name is Imvaernarhro).

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,279
    edited November 2015
    @Cahir , according to FR Wiki and the 3E campaign setting Klauth is the oldest dragon who hasn't turned to lichdom . Those sources say that he sacrifices dragon eggs in a magical process that prolongs his own life . Also, even though it is not canon, the game Neverwinter nights states that he had lived since the time of the Creator Races, which was indeed 10000 years ago.

    Moradin
  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,531
    @DJKajuru thanks for reply. I didn't have NWN in mind since it's not considered as a canon, but I will check my 3E resources to see if I find something about Klauth sacrificing his eggs. I was referring mainly to Wyrms of the North article by Sean Reynolds at WotC site as a extensive lore info about Klauth that I know of.

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,993
    DJKajuru said:


    @Tresset , don't you think that Klauth was a bit too easy in NWN?

    Probably.

  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,531
    DJKajuru said:

    @Cahir , according to FR Wiki and the 3E campaign setting Klauth is the oldest dragon who hasn't turned to lichdom . Those sources say that he sacrifices dragon eggs in a magical process that prolongs his own life . Also, even though it is not canon, the game Neverwinter nights states that he had lived since the time of the Creator Races, which was indeed 10000 years ago.

    Ok, I did some research and the FRCS (3rd ed.) states as follows:

    Klauth hunts for and devours all dragon eggs and hatchlings - except for red dragon eggs, which he uses in a secret magical process to increase his size, health, and vigor. Old Snarl has mastered the art of tricking dragons out of their lairs, so he can slip in and snatch away unguarded offspring, eggs, and magic..

    So as I see it, he only uses dragon eggs to maintain his physical prowess not to prolong his life.

  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    edited November 2015
    http://dragonlancenexus.com/lexicon/index.php?title=Malystryx is pretty nasty. Kills good and evil dragons to gain their power. Starts a war that covers the whole world. Strongarms other greater dragons into joining her. Makes an army out of smaller dragons. Develops a way for dragons to make thralls out of humanoids. Takhisis (goddess of evil dragons) had to steal her totem in order to actually kill her etc.

    Especially nasty as she did all this when magic was heavily restricted. Non dragons had to destroy magic items in order to cast spells, dragons could just use magic innately.

    EDIT: now with stats http://www.dlnexus.com/fan/rules/12746.aspx

    elminsterDragonKingGemHoundlordkim
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,279
    @Cahir , the Forgotten Realms Wikia says "he had lived much longer than his race's life expectancy would normally allow without the aid of the cult's methods".

    By "cult" they mean "cult of the dragon", which supports dracolichdom.

    The informatio might not be detailed, but it is a fact that he found some unnatural way to prolong his life , which may be by using red dragon's eggs. Since we are talking about a RPG game which covers an entire world , it is understable that they haven't totally explained that yet (if indeed they ever will).

    He is , however, one of the oldest dragons in Faerun. An active, powerful, gigantic, wise, smart , fire breathing and spellcasting one, more powerful than most of the chosen , able to destroy entire cities and crush orc hordes .



    Moradin
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,866
    And when I write a extremely powerful Dragon character, people say I'm projecting >.>

    SethDavissemiticgodMoradin
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 2,684
    If I recall Klauth is very tough in NWN if you don't do any sort of trick to weaken him, but even still he isn't nearly as strong as he should be.

  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,531
    edited November 2015
    DJKajuru said:

    @Cahir , the Forgotten Realms Wikia says "he had lived much longer than his race's life expectancy would normally allow without the aid of the cult's methods".

    By "cult" they mean "cult of the dragon", which supports dracolichdom.

    The informatio might not be detailed, but it is a fact that he found some unnatural way to prolong his life , which may be by using red dragon's eggs. Since we are talking about a RPG game which covers an entire world , it is understable that they haven't totally explained that yet (if indeed they ever will).

    He is , however, one of the oldest dragons in Faerun. An active, powerful, gigantic, wise, smart , fire breathing and spellcasting one, more powerful than most of the chosen , able to destroy entire cities and crush orc hordes .

    @DJKajuru sorry for carrying on our conversation about Klauth, but you just caught my interest and made me to do my own research. Ok, so I've checked each and every source mentioned in that Wikia article about Klauth (even the one in Dragon #424) and didn't find anything that specifically said that Old Snarl prolongs his life in any way. It may be that using/eating dragon eggs to boost his health and physical capabilities did cause to extend his life to some degree (better health usually means longer life), but outside NWN game I didn't find a thing about him being as old as 10000 years - remembering the times of Creator Races. Since this NWM lore is definitely not canon, I'm not taking it into consideration. Still, I don't deny that Klauth may be the oldest living red dragon (or even the oldest living dragon of all kinds), but I'm not buying that he's ten thousand years old.

    Anyway, this whole conversation makes me want to do a deeper research and gather the known dates of birth of living grand wyrms (all kinds, not just red ones) to see which one is really the oldest one. This may be as well impossible, because only a handful of dragons have their dates of birth specified in their lore entries, but still this could be interesting info for all lore enthusiasts.

    Quick research revealed as follows:
    Iryklathagra "the Sharpfangs" - born in 145 DR (1223 years old in 1368 RD)
    Mauzzkyl Jaezred (leader of Jaezzred Chaulssin from the Underdark city of Chaulssin) - born in 27 DR (1341 years old in 1368 RD)

    Not many dates, unfortunately, so it's almost impossible to determine which great wyrm is truly the oldest one...

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Aha! Found a candidate for being one of the oldest dragon - Palarandusk "The Unseen Protector". Wyrms of the North series article about him states as follows (no birth date am afraid):

    A truly ancient gold he-dragon (mature when Netheril was young), Palarandusk has prolonged his existence beyond the natural death and decay of his body through powerful magic of his own devising. Now the spells that maintain his magically-knit form are failing, and he dares materialize for only a few minutes each day -- usually showing himself for only a few seconds, to proffer something, snatch something, or attack.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,279
    edited November 2015
    No worries ;D . I hope we can find other interesting dragons from the FR setting !

    Post edited by DJKajuru on
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,866
    What about power wise, any Dragon that can be seen as his equivalent? None deities I mean.

  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,531

    What about power wise, any Dragon that can be seen as his equivalent? None deities I mean.

    I'd see few candidates power-wise, although one is a dracolich, so I don't know if it counts:
    - Daurgothoth "the Creeping Doom" - dracolich of immense power. He's one of the most powerful magic users in all Faerun equal in magic wielding prowess with some top players as Larloch, Elminster, Simbul etc. Even goddess Mystra has the utmost respect for his skills. And he's one of the leaders of infamous Cult of the Dragon.
    - Inferno - insanely old, gigantic and powerful red dragon of physical capabilities that match Klauth's, but more skilled magic user than Old Snarl.
    - Tchazzar - powerful red dragon with fiendish attributes and a champion of goddess Tiamat.
    - Mauzzkyl Jaezred - very powerful and old shadow dragon who runs a guild of assassins in the Underdark city of Chaulssin.

    There are also couple of powerful good dragons like mentioned Palarandusk, but they are not as active as their evil counterparts.

  • lordkimlordkim Member Posts: 1,063
    edited November 2015
    SethDavis said:

    http://dragonlancenexus.com/lexicon/index.php?title=Malystryx is pretty nasty. Kills good and evil dragons to gain their power. Starts a war that covers the whole world. Strongarms other greater dragons into joining her. Makes an army out of smaller dragons. Develops a way for dragons to make thralls out of humanoids. Takhisis (goddess of evil dragons) had to steal her totem in order to actually kill her etc.

    Especially nasty as she did all this when magic was heavily restricted. Non dragons had to destroy magic items in order to cast spells, dragons could just use magic innately.

    EDIT: now with stats http://www.dlnexus.com/fan/rules/12746.aspx



    Malystryx got slain by a young girl called Mina. Who later became a god . (god off tears)

    Quote : In 421 AC, in the skies over the city of Sanction, Mina atop her summoned death dragon, slew the mighty dragon overlord.

    Books :
    Amber and Ashes,
    Amber and Iron,
    Amber and Blood

    Christ i miss Dragonlance :/

    SethDavisEmpyrial
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    lordkim said:

    Malystryx got slain by a young girl called Mina. Who later became a god . (god off tears)

    Well when you say it that way it just doesn't sound like the most awesome thing in my reading adolescence. You gotta give it a bit more flair, like "It took 1.5 gods and a dragon they literally made up on the spot."
    lordkim said:

    Christ i miss Dragonlance :/

    yup :/

    lordkimEmpyrial
  • lordkimlordkim Member Posts: 1,063
    hahaha ok... Ill try to give it some spice next time ;)

  • BladeDancerBladeDancer Member Posts: 477
    DJKajuru said:

    @Cahir , Also, even though it is not canon, the game Neverwinter nights states that he had lived since the time of the Creator Races, which was indeed 10000 years ago.

    The only detail from NWN that is canon is the Wailing Death devastating Neverwinter.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,279

    DJKajuru said:

    @Cahir , Also, even though it is not canon, the game Neverwinter nights states that he had lived since the time of the Creator Races, which was indeed 10000 years ago.

    The only detail from NWN that is canon is the Wailing Death devastating Neverwinter.
    Yes, but I'm overly superstitious. I believe in horoscope, aliens, spirits and the fact that Klauth is 10000 years old. ;D

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