Pit fiends: Are they so worthless?
Arunsun
Member Posts: 1,592
I recently made a Cleric/illusionist playthrough, and at some point I thought "Are Pit Fiend so worthless?"
Just a small "technical" foreword before I get to business. Summoned demons have a rather unique property I discovered during the playthrough: though having a red circle, being targetable as enemies etc... they are still considered as your summons, meaning any AoE buff spells that would affect allies will affect them as well. That noticably includes protection from evil 10' radius, haste, strength of one, bless, etc... However the kills they make won't grant you experience.
Now that this was said, here is how I did it. I would prepare my chain contingency with three gates (from the level 7 priest spell. They are the same Pit Fiend as those from the level 9 mage spell Gate as far as I am aware).
I would also prepare a sequencer with Strength of One (Pit Fiend only have 18, so 18/76 is bettet), protection from evil 10' radius (to prevent them for killing each other) and haste. Sometimes I would add a minor sequencer with Bless and Chant.
As soon as the contingency triggers I would use the spell sequencer, buffing them all, and let them do their things. I must say their triple fireball deals with many enemies quite fast.
For most battles this will be enough. However their Thac0 is sometimes not high enough, hence the addition of bless, Chant, and Strength of one, so that it is lowered to 3. To help them further, you can consider using Power Word: blind on enemies (lowers their AC by 4) and Improved haste to replace Haste. They have a base 5APR, and though 6 is good already, 10 is really awesome
Oh and another really nice point in their advantage compared to planetar. They won't turn "more hostile" even if you bomb them with AoE. Feel free to use and abuse incendiary clouds, firestorms, fireballs (I prefer them to skull trap as it won't damage the pit fiend. I can't use skull trap anyway as illusionist though) sunfire etc...
When they are in need, a Mass cure will do the job as well.
Overall, if properly used, I would classify Pit Fiends as stronger than Devas. And you can summon several of them on top of that.
Just a small "technical" foreword before I get to business. Summoned demons have a rather unique property I discovered during the playthrough: though having a red circle, being targetable as enemies etc... they are still considered as your summons, meaning any AoE buff spells that would affect allies will affect them as well. That noticably includes protection from evil 10' radius, haste, strength of one, bless, etc... However the kills they make won't grant you experience.
Now that this was said, here is how I did it. I would prepare my chain contingency with three gates (from the level 7 priest spell. They are the same Pit Fiend as those from the level 9 mage spell Gate as far as I am aware).
I would also prepare a sequencer with Strength of One (Pit Fiend only have 18, so 18/76 is bettet), protection from evil 10' radius (to prevent them for killing each other) and haste. Sometimes I would add a minor sequencer with Bless and Chant.
As soon as the contingency triggers I would use the spell sequencer, buffing them all, and let them do their things. I must say their triple fireball deals with many enemies quite fast.
For most battles this will be enough. However their Thac0 is sometimes not high enough, hence the addition of bless, Chant, and Strength of one, so that it is lowered to 3. To help them further, you can consider using Power Word: blind on enemies (lowers their AC by 4) and Improved haste to replace Haste. They have a base 5APR, and though 6 is good already, 10 is really awesome
Oh and another really nice point in their advantage compared to planetar. They won't turn "more hostile" even if you bomb them with AoE. Feel free to use and abuse incendiary clouds, firestorms, fireballs (I prefer them to skull trap as it won't damage the pit fiend. I can't use skull trap anyway as illusionist though) sunfire etc...
When they are in need, a Mass cure will do the job as well.
Overall, if properly used, I would classify Pit Fiends as stronger than Devas. And you can summon several of them on top of that.
5
Comments
While it's not impossible to make them work and "worthless" is a very harsh judgment, overall I'd rather not use them, personally.
I play with SCS now, and that makes it a bit more problematic, as the enemy likes to dispel my Protection from Evil, and my demons somehow enjoy attacking me more than the enemy.
In the original game, you got experience from killing your own demons. So I would start the game as a Cleric and get high enough level to cast gate (Level 7). Then I would cast Protection from Evil on myself, and throw Bolt of Glory on the Demon, killing it quickly. 18 000 experience (something like that), rest and do it again. The Graveyard was a good place to do this, rest without getting interrupted and no civilians for the demon to attack.
@Lord_Tansheron A pity, really. Summons are very very good if used properly, because if they are used properly they should have a much bigger value than any spell (Well, except Project Image). Yes, it is more micromanagement if you want to make the most out of them, and it surely is annoying when playing a 6 members team, but when you play solo it's a chicken of a different color, and you have to use every possibility to do the best with only one character.
And SCS nerfs the Staff of Magi.
What I didn't know was that Protection from Evil 10' Radius would affect them. That's just spectacular.
I generally use a full party and I'm generally quite sparing in my use of summons, but if I were a soloist then I'm sure I'd be using summons a lot more.
However, I don't use summoned demons at all - in all these years, I can't remember ever doing so (although there might have been one or two instances which I've now forgotten). The reason is simply that I don't like not getting the XP.
The important thing to remember when using summons is that you should send them in waves. First the cheaper and more plentiful summons to soak up nasty spells, then send in stronger enemies afterwards. It''s very frustrating to summon your powerful minions, only to have the enemy cast one death spell and remove them all. Even if the enemy is killing your summons, they are spending resources to do so, and you an just summon new creatures to take the place of the ones that they kill.
@Gallowglass in this particular demon case I would add it is much more micromanagement if you are to use demons. If soloing, if I am dispeled I just have to cast one protection from evil, I don't have to run around and cast protection from evil on everyone. And I just have to protect one character from their fireballs.
@SionIV Totally agreed about sending them by waves, hence the use of chain contingency in my case (because I can't command them directly). Demons are, of course, unaffected by death spell and Pit Fiends have, IIRC, 50% magic resistance, which makes them good at soaking spells as well. And since I stock them in contingencies, well, I can summon the first three with contingency, then summon more midfight as well.
@Border For various reason this strategy is best with a solo character, and the main of them is XP. A solo character will reach cap very fast anyway which is why you can afford doing this. With a team it's indeed a bad idea
Demon Lord: "Right you lot, there's a party of adventurers coming down the corridor, stop all that squabbling and get ready!"
[Squad of Demon goons pause fighting one another.]
Assorted Demon goons: "Aw, boss, we wuz jes' practicing!" "Practicing?! You stole my favourite soul, you legitimate offspring!" "Get that pitchfork out of my tail, or else!" "Gimme back that Cursed Helm of Irony, you thieving scum!" "Or what? You'll report me for being Evil? Har, har!" "That's it! I'm gonna tear your heart out!" "Oh go to Lumia, you honest angel!"
[In-fighting resumes.]
Demon Lord: "Arghh! Demogorgon, lend me Strength! Don't you morons understand that there's Good to fight?"
[Demon Lord casts Protection from Evil 10' Radius.]
http://www.shsforums.net/forum/598-atweaks/
Completely transforms behavior of fiends to make sense/better match what pnp fiends are capable of, including granting xp for kills by gated fiends. Warning though, all fiends become much more dangerous; pit fiends and balors will truly be deadly.
Any reason for picking Cleric/Illusionist @Arunsun? Did you just Shadow Keeper to get the class or? Thoughts on Power Word: Kill to take the Exp when enemies get low? I was thinking of doing a Gating character for fun with PW:K. PW:K being a lvl 9 spell kind of sucks though... Probably don't have the spell slots...
Edit: Think Pit Fiend strength is 18/00. Wouldn't drop it much though even if it was.
The extra spellslot is actually quite significative but a classical C/M multiclass would work as well
Pit fiends tank, AoE and hit hard.
However they have some serious disadvantages:
1) No XP
2) A lot of non-friendly AoE (including dispel magic that might dispel your Protection from Evil)
3) Symbol Fear sends enemies running and I hate that
4) Enemies might have Protection as well and can dispel your protection
This makes them viable only in cheesing by sending them in the enemy and blasting them all from a distance.
Now if you have a mage in the party, Pit fiends are not that exceptional. Mordenkainen's Sword is tankier and hits as +4 instead of +1. Sure the pit fiend is faster at killing but a mage can also toss wand fireballs all day.
Not worthless, just outclassed by summons of other classes and very hard to work with.
Summoning demons is really only a last resort type of thing like it says in their spell description. Worth having one slot in your spellbook at times, but most times you won't need them. They hit hard and fast, but their power spike dies off eventually. Have to remember a single Death Spell destroys any and all summoned creatures with 8 HD or less, so in this case Pit Fiends are vastly superior to all summons mentioned above. Pit Fiends definitely fill a niche, but for seasoned players their niche can dealt with in other ways.