A good movie even though I consider it A New Hope Version 2. Its about time that a female takes center stage in a Star Wars movie. Just wished they tapped into the EU part of the universe and had all three of Solo's offsprings in the movie. Jaina would be awesome and having Jacen as the baddie instead of the made up "Ben Solo" would have been better.
I've already seen it twice and am planning on catching it in IMAX later this week. I can't remember the last time I paid to see a movie three times in the theater (I used to do it a lot, but not for many years).
Having read plenty of EU stuff, I don't think the "legends" continuity is in any way superior to the new continuty.
Certainly not superior (though I'll argue that both Knights of the Old Republic Games are far better story-wise than the prequels), but if you ever had a stage in your life where the Expanded Universe meant something to you, it's a little sad to see it tossed aside. Especially the New Jedi Order series of books (which I never read much past the first two books since I just was so burned out on Star Wars books). That was a massive, continuous story coordinated between a multitude of authors. And though it would have been foolish to ever think otherwise, it's now impossible not to view any Star Wars product with a narrative as simply a cash in, because outside the movies and (bizarrely) the Clone Wars cartoon series (probably because it's a Netflix exclusive), it's all been relegated to fan fiction. And they won't hesitate to publish novels, comics and video games set in the era of the current film, they're probably already out there.
As bad as the prequels were in some way, they didn't trash and make obsolete the work of hundreds of people over the years. Disney threw it all away, which isn't a bad move business-wise, as I've said, "The Force Awakens" is probably worth more monetarily than the entire EU combined (many times over). It's now been out for 9 days and is already at #5 all-time, likely to steam-roll it's way to #1 within weeks. It's a fun romp. And there is a niche part of the population (even among Star Wars fans) that cared about the EU to begin with. I haven't for years. But I have fond memories of when I did. And that definitely seems a little meaningless now.
I really don't see why there are people so disappointed at that. You can still buy those books and comics. Everyone can still read and enjoy those stories.
I don't see any other way they could have handled that. Does anyone seriously think they should have made the new movies conform to the previously established canon? And if they do, do they seriously have to be explained how much of a bad idea this would be?
I don't mean to sound presumptuous enough to tell people how to enjoy their fiction, but I can't help to think it's silly one would enjoy any fictional story less because it's now somehow "more fictional" than the other fictional story that's taken over as canon.
By the way: if anyone wants to check out a Star Wars story that has never been canon (but published anyway), look out for Splinter of the Mind's Eye. It's written by the same author of the first movie's novelization (who's also the author of the one for the new movie).
It was originally conceived as the basis for a low-budget sequel for the original Star Wars that George Lucas intended to make in case the first movie tanked at the box-office as he sort of expected. It has no Han Solo, no space battles (the story is set on a swamp Dagobah-like planet - again, low budget) and Luke and Leia have moments totally not appropriate for siblings (which they aren't, in this particular story). It's a lot of fun.
I'm not saying there was another way to handle it, and it doesn't surprise me at all that they did it this way. But they can't coexist. The EU's universe revolves around Han and Leia's 3 children (though they certainly did borrow an idea from this as one went to the dark side as well). The child named Ben is actually Luke's son. And in the books, the big surprise death is Chewbacca, who goes down protecting Han and Leia's children. And no matter how much a fantasy universe suspends disbelief in the first place, it's awful hard to accept the fact that after "Return of the Jedi", there are now essentially two totally different story paths. If you were to read "Heir to the Empire" or "Vector Prime" or even the "Dark Empire" comics, and then go watch "The Force Awakens" you'd have to choose which story progression you like more, because they can't both be true (as far as Star Wars goes). All those novels and comics etc have very much been relegated to the ash-heap of history, especially when what swept them away is set to become the biggest grossing movie of all-time.
The EU is no different than any other fan fiction. It is a fun and highly entertaining way to pass the time until new canon comes available. We couldn't have honestly thought EU would survive a franchise reboot?! They're just completely different animals, enjoy each for what it is worth.
Any fan of long-form genre fiction has to cope with canon changing over time. DC comics did this first, with parallel Earths to account for different cannons. Then they had a Crisis back to a single cannon when too many became confusing. Now they have a Crisis once a decade or so, to keep things fresh for a new generation of fans. Marvell is finally similarly embracing the universal retcon. Star Trek did a fair job of telling new stories with new crews in new eras, although things got a little messy around Enterprise, and no surprise, a certain director got to completely throw out pre-existing continuity (and a lot of novels!) when it was time to relaunch Trek on the big screen.
Star Wars may be more mainstream than previous long-running s.f., but the cannon that is being retired is mostly for the genre die-hards, and the mainstream audience is likely happier with the new direction, where the big screen story-tellers are free to tell the story they want for the big screen. When it comes to Star Wars, the big screen has always been the cannon; it started on the big screen, had its major success on the big screen, and now is back on the big screen. Some portion of the audience may be familiar with the kids TV shows, but that is still a fraction of the movie audience. And my understanding is that the old continuity has been given a brand identity, so in principle it could still continue independently (although in practice I suspect Disney will not want to confuse the market while the new movies are being made).
One thing I have not caught up on is whether this new continuity affects the Ewok movies, and whether we can officially throw out any remaining copies of that awful Christmas Special...
I also have a little bit of trivia. This is a quote from George Lucas himself:
"I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions." - source
To further support that, prior to the Disney Lucasfilm big canon reboot, the canon hierarchy (spoilered for length) was this:
"G-canon is George Lucas canon: Considered absolute canon, it includes Episodes I–VII (the most recently released versions), and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the scripts, filmed deleted scenes, film novelizations, reference books, radio plays, and other primary sources are also G-canon when not in contradiction with the released films. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction.
T-canon is Television canon:[8] refers to the canon level comprising only the animated film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the two television series Star Wars: The Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels. Its precedence over C-Level canon was confirmed by Chee.[9]
C-canon is Continuity canon: consisting of materials from the Star Wars expanded universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.
S-canon is Secondary canon: covering the same medium as C-canon, it is immediately superseded by anything in higher levels of canon in any place where two elements contradict each other. The non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes certain elements of a few N-canon stories.
N-canon is Non-canon: "What-if" stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), crossover appearances (such as the Star Wars character appearances in Soulcalibur IV), game statistics, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered official canon by Lucasfilm. Any published material that contradicts things established in G-canon and T-canon is considered N-canon."
Though this hierarchy is no longer in use, and even though GL is no longer calling the shots, one could assume that the new movies would have been placed there as G-canon (with the other movies).
To top it off, this statement from Lucasfilm people from 2001: "When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences." - source
In conclusion, and as @GreenWarlock has pointed out, movies always take precedence. This isn't new - I guess you could even say that the books have never been *truly* canon.
But as I said before: those stories will always be there to be enjoyed. The only drawback for former-EU (now Legends) fans is that there will be no new stories for that continuity.
But you know what you get in return for that? New movies. That are actually *good* this time around. Sweet deal if you ask me.
A big thing to keep in mind with EU and "other canons" is that they are typically crafted for the medium they appear in. I remember a "Star Wars" comic appearing daily in our newspaper in the late 1970s; it mostly told the same story as the movie(s), but it was different in ways that took better advantage of its daily, graphic format.
I am a huge fan of fan fiction from a particular favorite television show. and with thousands of stories available that are each unique interpretations, I just have to accept that each is its own unique thing and its own unique canon.
The EU is no different than any other fan fiction. It is a fun and highly entertaining way to pass the time until new canon comes available. We couldn't have honestly thought EU would survive a franchise reboot?! They're just completely different animals, enjoy each for what it is worth.
It's hard for me to accept that the EU was just considered fan fiction, it was clearly more than that. I mean at a certain point they made the effort to put in detailed timelines to show you the chronology of every single movie, comic and book in the order it took place at the beginning of each book. Kevin J. Anderson's Jedi Academy Trilogy did (and was expected to) consider and deal with the aftermath of the Zahn Trilogy and Dark Empire comics (and the reason I know this so well is that I remember reading this series before I came across the comics and had NO idea about all the references they were making to them). So if it was fan fiction, it was the most well-organized and large set of fan fiction that has ever been assembled. And even when they made the prequels , the EU universe wasn't affected (granted this was pretty easy, as it was dealing with time periods that had no established cannon).
Yes, this was inevitable, though for years I guess I never really considered the idea that films 7-9 would actually be made, especially after the way the prequels became ridiculed even more over the years. I don't really care all that much, I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. I read ALOT of these books when I was younger (basically Truce at Bakura all the way through Vector Prime, when I finally got burnt out). There was alot of repetitive junk in them to be sure. I certainly didn't expect them to use EU characters or stories, especially after Abrams was put in the helm. But I don't accept that it wasn't originally designed to fit together, and for nearly 25 years at that. It was clear that authors were not only encouraged but forced to consider what had happened in the other books. No, they weren't canon on the level of the films, obviously. But it was the next step down.
So it was well conceived fan fiction. Lucas himself says he never read the stuff. Given that it was written when he owned the property I'd say that pretty much MAKES it fan fiction.
Seriously, I've read fan fiction that was better conceived and executed than most professional writing; certainly better executed than its own source of inspiration. In some cases I've come to prefer fan fiction to canon. Or as I said above, its just its own canon, its own thing. And it hurts nothing to have 3500 different alternate realities. The reader/viewer can even LIKE more than one! I know I do.
KotOR and anything witten by Timothy Zahn or Brian Daley was great. Anything involving the Yuzan Vong was appallingly bad, most of the rest was in between (but more towards the "bad" end). But the EU was drifting further and further away from the core character of Star Wars. I just hope they don't alow authors to make the same mistakes again.
KotOR and anything witten by Timothy Zahn or Brian Daley was great. Anything involving the Yuzan Vong was appallingly bad, most of the rest was in between (but more towards the "bad" end). But the EU was drifting further and further away from the core character of Star Wars. I just hope they don't alow authors to make the same mistakes again.
Much of it was certainly junk, I'll give you that (the Barbara Hambly stuff was particularly bad in my estimation). The Yuzan Vong and the whole New Jedi Order series, whatever you think of it (and I only read the first two books) were an attempt to get out of the rut of every book or trilogy having Luke facing off against another Dark Side entity and the New Republic trying to neutralize ANOTHER super-weapon.
If anything, the roll-out and implementation of the New Jedi Order series by Del Rey speaks to how much Lucasfilm DID care about continuity and keeping the story straight. Lucas himself dictated that the new series' enemies could not be Force users, that Luke, R2, and 3PO were not allowed to die, and he personally signed off on the death of Chewbacca in the opening book. So he may not have read them, but he apparently cared a great deal about what it meant for his universe. It was a 19 book series by 12 authors whose continuity was overseen by a entire team at Lucasfilm whose sole job was the make sure everything lined-up. The EU wasn't relegated to the status it has now for any other reason than there was more money to be made (infinitely more) with new films. That's fine, that's how the world works, but let's not pretend there is any other reason. The fact that they went out of their way to say that official cannon is "the movies and the Clone Wars TV series" is a dead giveaway. The only reason they added the later is because new episodes are exclusive to Netflix, and they likely insisted that it not be relegated to second class status.
George Lucas was an executive producer on both the Clone Wars movie (to which he also provided the story outline) and TV show. In practical terms, those are considered "stuff added by Lucas himself" (for the lack of a better term) in the SW lore.
The cancelling of the Clone Wars show is more of a marketing decision. With the new movies coming out, they want to shift audience focus to the point of the timeline that's going to be in evidence, a.k.a. the galaxy post-Return of the Jedi.
...or it could be that they want to distance themselves from the prequels as much as possible as a strategy to reinvigorate the franchise with jaded fans (who mostly older and thus have more money to spend). Note that Force Awakens has zero references to the prequels (other than a racing pod dumped in the back of one or two shots) and the new Battlefront game also has no stages or characters from those movies.
That, by the way, is why I have zero faith in the rumors that Hayden Christensen is going to show up in the next movies as the ghost of Anakin Skywalker.
You guys have no idea how happy I am that I can now click on this thread.
[spoiler=THOUGHTS]I had zero spoilers when I went to see this movie, and I also have never read the novels prior to this. So consider my opinion that of a clean-slate.
I liked it! We'd just watched all three of the original movies before seeing it, and I agree that it felt like A New Hope revisit, but with enough differences and new characters to keep things interesting.
BB8 is the most adorable thing in the universe right now.
I love that we got a look at someone from within the legions of storm troopers. Finn is a reminder that inside each one of those white-suited soldiers is a brainwashed person. I also found it interesting that stormtroopers aren't allowed to remove their helmets--that by dawning that armor, they lose their identity to the Empire/First Order/Evil Entity. It was a detail I'd never thought of before and appreciated it, and made Finn's escape all the more powerful.
I loved Finn's bonding with Po and didn't believe for a second our star pilot was dead. No one is dead unless I see a body!! Never fails.
Rey was a fun character for the sheer amount of kick-ass girl power she brought. I want to know who her parents are! Is she Luke's daughter? Is she another of Leia's children that she never told Han about? And why was she left alone to fend for herself on Jakku as a little girl??
Han and Chewie! My god, they had the best lines.
"Isn't he a war hero?" "*Chewie shrug*"
"What did you do when you were here?" "Sanitation." "SANITATION!?"
"Here, take this." "I can handle myself." "I know ya can. That's why I'm giving it to you."
Man, the second Han walked on that bridge to confront his son, he got covered in death flags. I sat on the edge of my seat internally screaming "NO. NONONONONONONO DON'T DO THIS TO ME STAR WARS. I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING. DAMN IT, DON'T GET ON THE BRIDGE, HAN, DON'T GET TOO CLOSE TO KYLO. NO. NO. (Han gets stabbed) NOOOOOOOO!"
Though because I saw it coming instantly, I wasn't so broken-hearted over the whole thing, which is my main critique of the movie: it was a bit too predictable for any meaningful emotional impact.
Can I just say how horrible awful bad the First Order are? Within minutes of the movie, they slaughtered an entire community of unarmed villagers in search of a droid. They kidnap and brainwash and erase people in white suits and use them for evil and mass murder. They corrupted one of Skywalker blood and built a weapon that could harness the sun and decimated five entire planets. o_o;; These guys made the Empire look like chumps.
And I liked Kylo Ren. Perfect characterization. He was that evil, weak-kneed, angst-ridden teenager with too many expectations who wanted to prove himself, but was stuck in limbo. He never killed anyone himself; he only gave the orders. He destroyed entire rooms when he was angry, throwing tantrums like a child. When he took off his mask, he was still young (and surprisingly handsome), perhaps marking that he hadn't yet been fully twisted or tainted by the Dark Side. But we left him with a scar on his face and the blood of his father on his hands, and now we'll get to watch his descent into darkness, where he will inevitably be consumed by it.
He kinda reminds me of Draco Malfoy out of Harry Potter, except less whiny and more angsty. Just a tad.
Also, Luke with a beard!
I'd go see it again. I want to see it again. And I can't wait for episode 8. [/spoiler]
Through just Friday it had already surpassed Titanic....will easily run past 700 million for the weekend and could conceivably pass Avatar already. This is an incredibly short amount of time to rake in this kind of money. This thing could easily sit at 850 million by the time all is said and done, which might DOUBLE the Phantom Menace. And while ticket prices have gone up in the last 15 years, they definitely haven't doubled. Expected it to do well, but not completely obliterate every single box office mark in existence.
George Lucas was an executive producer on both the Clone Wars movie (to which he also provided the story outline) and TV show. In practical terms, those are considered "stuff added by Lucas himself" (for the lack of a better term) in the SW lore.
The cancelling of the Clone Wars show is more of a marketing decision. With the new movies coming out, they want to shift audience focus to the point of the timeline that's going to be in evidence, a.k.a. the galaxy post-Return of the Jedi.
...or it could be that they want to distance themselves from the prequels as much as possible as a strategy to reinvigorate the franchise with jaded fans (who mostly older and thus have more money to spend). Note that Force Awakens has zero references to the prequels (other than a racing pod dumped in the back of one or two shots) and the new Battlefront game also has no stages or characters from those movies.
That, by the way, is why I have zero faith in the rumors that Hayden Christensen is going to show up in the next movies as the ghost of Anakin Skywalker.
Neither scenario would appear to be the case. Considering that Rogue Squadron will take place between Episodes 3 and 4. and so apparently is The Han Solo movie going to be, they are most definitely not trying to shift focus away from the earlier stuff.
And Disney has already stated that the Clone wars TV series is part of the new canon, so they are not trying to distance themselves from that either.
I do suspect that they want clear title over the intellectual property of Star Wars Rebels. I am pretty sure that they wanted the hand-over transition to be clear and separate, but not really a lot more than that. The general impression is that the Clone Wars TV series was quite good in comparison to episodes 1-3, so why throw that out the window? But this way they can keep the good stuff and still have a claim on their own intellectual property.
Wow....740 million by the end of the weekend. Which pretty much guarantees it's going to pass Avatar before the next weekend even gets here, and then what?? Are we looking at the first movie that can hit a BILLION domestically?? It's 3/4 of the way there after only 14 days, and while the overwhelming majority of the money is made in the first week or two, it did over 80 million this weekend. Let's say it's only half that next weekend, that will take it well past 800 million already....probably a long shot, but it's gonna come damn close....
I thought it was ok, not bad, but not nearly as amazing all my friends said it was when we left the theater. It just kind of retread all of "A new Hope's" storyline. It goes from unknowingly force sensitive teen stuck on desert planet, with random droid holding extremely important information also stuck on desert planet all the way to father son stand off on impossibly unsafe bridge over tech bottomless pit. I think a lot more could of been done on the hole perspective of a stormtrooper thing.
Also why sith lords in training always have to be such little bitches, Ren = awesome badass with helmet on, remove helmet and Ren turns into a little whiny douchebag. That being said, at the end of the movie he was the only character I was remotely interested in finding out whats going to happen to him.
Another thing how did the completely untrained almost padawan girl beat the sith lord in training? Sure she can use the force, but that doesn't mean she knows how to actually use a lightsaber.
On a happier note it did feel like a star wars movie, that could be because half the plot is copy pasta from "A new hope", but the classic pilot shots with all that red leader, gold leader nonsense really brought me back.
On a completely different note, when is this crappy 3D gimmick going to go away. If a movie is not specifically shot for 3D, then it ends up being more of a annoyance than anything else.
Another thing how did the completely untrained almost padawan girl beat the sith lord in training? Sure she can use the force, but that doesn't mean she knows how to actually use a lightsaber.
To me this was obvious: He let her beat him. Their whole duel seems to be his way of testing her, and culminates in him trying to tempt her to the dark side so he can train her. He seems less interested in killing her than he is in corrupting her. She uses that to her advantage.
And it's not like she's never fought with a weapon before; she starts off with that spear-staff thing, and is actually pretty good with it, holding her own against an entire group of scavengers. Finn actually holds off from helping her when he realizes she's doing fine in a fight.
No, she shouldn't be able to defeat Ren in a fair fight where both of them are at their best; but by that point, Ren has been hit with a blaster bolt in his side, which he spends enough time pounding with his fist to make it clear it's not just a grazing blow.
So Ren is wounded, he's not trying to kill Rey, and Rey's skilled with weapons. All of that leads to her defeating him--but even then, she doesn't kill him. Her victory is perfectly within the realm of plausible storytelling.
Kylo Ren is still training, though. I wouldn't call him a Sith Lord just yet. He does have some more experience than Rey, sure, but considering that Snoke wanted to 'complete his training' at the end after he was beaten, I doubt that he was up to that level yet.
Kylo Ren is still training, though. I wouldn't call him a Sith Lord just yet. He does some some more experience than Rey, sure, but considering that Snoke wanted to 'complete his training' at the end after he was beaten, I doubt that he was up to that level yet.
Not to mention the whole thing where he got shot in the pelvis and was bleeding out the whole time. It would be very difficult to fight under such circumstances or so I imagine.
Kylo Ren is weak. That's kind of the point. He is shot by Chewie and seriously wounded. Vader would have batted that aside like a fly. It wouldn't even of been a problem for Ventress. Finn manages to wound him before Ren takes him down, and Finn got his ass kicked by a regular stormtrooper with a riot control weapon!
That IMO is why he turned to the dark side: he was expected to be a powerful Force user like his grandfather, but when he started training he turned out to be an also-ran. So when Snoke offered to show him the dark side as a quick and easy path to the power that he believed should have been his by right of inheritance he jumped at the chance.
As for Rey, I'm of the view that she already had some jedi training: see my thread on TFA and KotOR similarities.
Sure you can reconstruct a reason why Rey won if we focus on Ren Ren's training isn't complete, he wanted to bring Rey to his Snoke, Ren is wounded etc . . . Ren is weak.
But if we focus on Rey. Those moves were pretty darn impressive and the explanation "she knew how to use a staff" doesn't explain the level of skill she displayed. I've spent time of trampoline but I don't expect that I could use those skill to roundhouse kick three attackers Chuck Norris style.
The notion that the force can guide your hand does satisfy but the story is missing a Ben Kenobi figure to explain this to the audience. And Jedi training off screen? Development of skills off screen is even less satisfying.
Director's cut -- Rey has dreams of light sabre fights. Problem solved.
And still, great movie. I think they did the right thing by making Kylo Ren so weak. If they tried to reboot Darth Vader I would have been disappointed.
Also, if you read Ren's twitter you will find out that Han is responsible for much of what wrong in Ren's life:
For me, this movie completely recaptured the feel and enthusiasm I had for the original movies. The biggest draws for me being Finn as the relatable Everyman sort of figure, and Rey as a still forming force to be reckoned with. I like Poe the hotshot pilot too, but it's the two main characters that will drive my passion going forward.
I also loved how conscious they were of recapturing the original movie. From jokes about the data in the droid, to Ren being a Darth Vador wannabe. This may have been the most perfect reboot I've ever seen.
Sure you can reconstruct a reason why Rey won if we focus on Ren Ren's training isn't complete, he wanted to bring Rey to his Snoke, Ren is wounded etc . . . Ren is weak.
But if we focus on Rey. Those moves were pretty darn impressive and the explanation "she knew how to use a staff" doesn't explain the level of skill she displayed. I've spent time of trampoline but I don't expect that I could use those skill to roundhouse kick three attackers Chuck Norris style.
First, Rey didn't "spend some time with a staff". She practiced and mastered her staff. It's her weapon of choice. When she leaves at the end of the movie, she takes her staff with her. This is someone who has trained with that weapon for her entire adult life; you start a fight with her, she's going to kick your butt with her staff.
Second, my assessment of her moves was actually much less impressive. I saw her making a lot of the same mistakes that Luke made in Empire Strikes Back during his duel with Vader: a lot of stabbing charges that any swordsman of real skill would be able to parry no problem (and Ren does so).
The moment when she starts to win is when Ren gives her a chance to calm down and open herself up to the Force, the same way that Luke opens himself up when he's working with the blast shield over his eyes. Obi-Wan doesn't train him to use his lightsaber; he just guides Luke to a place of calm so that he can listen to what the Force is telling him. Rey's sudden proficiency with the lightsaber is no different; her technique is focused, less haphazard. But I wouldn't say it's advanced; she's listening to the Force, and following its flow.
Maz is actually the one who first opens her mind up to the Force, after she touches Anakin's lightsaber for the first time. It's not a long moment, but you don't need a long moment for the lesson to be conveyed.
Sure you can reconstruct a reason why Rey won if we focus on Ren Ren's training isn't complete, he wanted to bring Rey to his Snoke, Ren is wounded etc . . . Ren is weak.
Wouldn't it be interesting if Snoke sent Ren after Rey with the expectation that she would kill him and then take her place as Snoke's apprentice? Just saying...
But if we focus on Rey. Those moves were pretty darn impressive and the explanation "she knew how to use a staff" doesn't explain the level of skill she displayed. I've spent time of trampoline but I don't expect that I could use those skill to roundhouse kick three attackers Chuck Norris style.
True enough, but she absolutely has to have had some martial training. And some training plus an affinity for hand held weapons does translate at least somewhat across disciplines. Throw in The Force influence and you may very well have what we saw. And we don't know her background, so if what some suspect is true, she may very well have been brought up learning to use swords and bladed weapons?
The notion that the force can guide your hand does satisfy but the story is missing a Ben Kenobi figure to explain this to the audience. And Jedi training off screen? Development of skills off screen is even less satisfying.
Director's cut -- Rey has dreams of light sabre fights. Problem solved.
Again, this may have been kept unrevealed precisely because of who she may end up being. I think to pass judgment at this stage and before 'The big reveal' happens (whatever way that falls out) is a bit premature to say that it is a failing of any kind.
And still, great movie. I think they did the right thing by making Kylo Ren so weak. If they tried to reboot Darth Vader I would have been disappointed.
I did expect somewhat of a stronger 'Sith lord'. If not necessarily Darth Vader (and that is setting the bar VERY High), perhaps at least something more than what we got. I say this knowing full well that we don't know the rest of the story and it may yet acquit itself nicely. I still loved the movie.
Yeah, a lot of 'Troubled' adults will go on and on about how their parents screwed them up. As to if that is true or only 'From a certain perspective', remains to be seen at least in this instance.
Comments
Having read plenty of EU stuff, I don't think the "legends" continuity is in any way superior to the new continuty.
As bad as the prequels were in some way, they didn't trash and make obsolete the work of hundreds of people over the years. Disney threw it all away, which isn't a bad move business-wise, as I've said, "The Force Awakens" is probably worth more monetarily than the entire EU combined (many times over). It's now been out for 9 days and is already at #5 all-time, likely to steam-roll it's way to #1 within weeks. It's a fun romp. And there is a niche part of the population (even among Star Wars fans) that cared about the EU to begin with. I haven't for years. But I have fond memories of when I did. And that definitely seems a little meaningless now.
I don't see any other way they could have handled that. Does anyone seriously think they should have made the new movies conform to the previously established canon? And if they do, do they seriously have to be explained how much of a bad idea this would be?
I don't mean to sound presumptuous enough to tell people how to enjoy their fiction, but I can't help to think it's silly one would enjoy any fictional story less because it's now somehow "more fictional" than the other fictional story that's taken over as canon.
By the way: if anyone wants to check out a Star Wars story that has never been canon (but published anyway), look out for Splinter of the Mind's Eye. It's written by the same author of the first movie's novelization (who's also the author of the one for the new movie).
It was originally conceived as the basis for a low-budget sequel for the original Star Wars that George Lucas intended to make in case the first movie tanked at the box-office as he sort of expected. It has no Han Solo, no space battles (the story is set on a swamp Dagobah-like planet - again, low budget) and Luke and Leia have moments totally not appropriate for siblings (which they aren't, in this particular story). It's a lot of fun.
Star Wars may be more mainstream than previous long-running s.f., but the cannon that is being retired is mostly for the genre die-hards, and the mainstream audience is likely happier with the new direction, where the big screen story-tellers are free to tell the story they want for the big screen. When it comes to Star Wars, the big screen has always been the cannon; it started on the big screen, had its major success on the big screen, and now is back on the big screen. Some portion of the audience may be familiar with the kids TV shows, but that is still a fraction of the movie audience. And my understanding is that the old continuity has been given a brand identity, so in principle it could still continue independently (although in practice I suspect Disney will not want to confuse the market while the new movies are being made).
One thing I have not caught up on is whether this new continuity affects the Ewok movies, and whether we can officially throw out any remaining copies of that awful Christmas Special...
"I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions." - source
To further support that, prior to the Disney Lucasfilm big canon reboot, the canon hierarchy (spoilered for length) was this:
T-canon is Television canon:[8] refers to the canon level comprising only the animated film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the two television series Star Wars: The Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels. Its precedence over C-Level canon was confirmed by Chee.[9]
C-canon is Continuity canon: consisting of materials from the Star Wars expanded universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.
S-canon is Secondary canon: covering the same medium as C-canon, it is immediately superseded by anything in higher levels of canon in any place where two elements contradict each other. The non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes certain elements of a few N-canon stories.
N-canon is Non-canon: "What-if" stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), crossover appearances (such as the Star Wars character appearances in Soulcalibur IV), game statistics, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered official canon by Lucasfilm. Any published material that contradicts things established in G-canon and T-canon is considered N-canon."
(source)
Though this hierarchy is no longer in use, and even though GL is no longer calling the shots, one could assume that the new movies would have been placed there as G-canon (with the other movies).
To top it off, this statement from Lucasfilm people from 2001: "When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences." - source
In conclusion, and as @GreenWarlock has pointed out, movies always take precedence. This isn't new - I guess you could even say that the books have never been *truly* canon.
But as I said before: those stories will always be there to be enjoyed. The only drawback for former-EU (now Legends) fans is that there will be no new stories for that continuity.
But you know what you get in return for that? New movies. That are actually *good* this time around. Sweet deal if you ask me.
I am a huge fan of fan fiction from a particular favorite television show. and with thousands of stories available that are each unique interpretations, I just have to accept that each is its own unique thing and its own unique canon.
Yes, this was inevitable, though for years I guess I never really considered the idea that films 7-9 would actually be made, especially after the way the prequels became ridiculed even more over the years. I don't really care all that much, I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. I read ALOT of these books when I was younger (basically Truce at Bakura all the way through Vector Prime, when I finally got burnt out). There was alot of repetitive junk in them to be sure. I certainly didn't expect them to use EU characters or stories, especially after Abrams was put in the helm. But I don't accept that it wasn't originally designed to fit together, and for nearly 25 years at that. It was clear that authors were not only encouraged but forced to consider what had happened in the other books. No, they weren't canon on the level of the films, obviously. But it was the next step down.
Lucas himself says he never read the stuff. Given that it was written when he owned the property I'd say that pretty much MAKES it fan fiction.
Seriously, I've read fan fiction that was better conceived and executed than most professional writing; certainly better executed than its own source of inspiration. In some cases I've come to prefer fan fiction to canon. Or as I said above, its just its own canon, its own thing.
And it hurts nothing to have 3500 different alternate realities. The reader/viewer can even LIKE more than one! I know I do.
If anything, the roll-out and implementation of the New Jedi Order series by Del Rey speaks to how much Lucasfilm DID care about continuity and keeping the story straight. Lucas himself dictated that the new series' enemies could not be Force users, that Luke, R2, and 3PO were not allowed to die, and he personally signed off on the death of Chewbacca in the opening book. So he may not have read them, but he apparently cared a great deal about what it meant for his universe. It was a 19 book series by 12 authors whose continuity was overseen by a entire team at Lucasfilm whose sole job was the make sure everything lined-up. The EU wasn't relegated to the status it has now for any other reason than there was more money to be made (infinitely more) with new films. That's fine, that's how the world works, but let's not pretend there is any other reason. The fact that they went out of their way to say that official cannon is "the movies and the Clone Wars TV series" is a dead giveaway. The only reason they added the later is because new episodes are exclusive to Netflix, and they likely insisted that it not be relegated to second class status.
The cancelling of the Clone Wars show is more of a marketing decision. With the new movies coming out, they want to shift audience focus to the point of the timeline that's going to be in evidence, a.k.a. the galaxy post-Return of the Jedi.
...or it could be that they want to distance themselves from the prequels as much as possible as a strategy to reinvigorate the franchise with jaded fans (who mostly older and thus have more money to spend). Note that Force Awakens has zero references to the prequels (other than a racing pod dumped in the back of one or two shots) and the new Battlefront game also has no stages or characters from those movies.
That, by the way, is why I have zero faith in the rumors that Hayden Christensen is going to show up in the next movies as the ghost of Anakin Skywalker.
89.
You guys have no idea how happy I am that I can now click on this thread.
[spoiler=THOUGHTS]I had zero spoilers when I went to see this movie, and I also have never read the novels prior to this. So consider my opinion that of a clean-slate.
I liked it! We'd just watched all three of the original movies before seeing it, and I agree that it felt like A New Hope revisit, but with enough differences and new characters to keep things interesting.
BB8 is the most adorable thing in the universe right now.
I love that we got a look at someone from within the legions of storm troopers. Finn is a reminder that inside each one of those white-suited soldiers is a brainwashed person. I also found it interesting that stormtroopers aren't allowed to remove their helmets--that by dawning that armor, they lose their identity to the Empire/First Order/Evil Entity. It was a detail I'd never thought of before and appreciated it, and made Finn's escape all the more powerful.
I loved Finn's bonding with Po and didn't believe for a second our star pilot was dead. No one is dead unless I see a body!! Never fails.
Rey was a fun character for the sheer amount of kick-ass girl power she brought. I want to know who her parents are! Is she Luke's daughter? Is she another of Leia's children that she never told Han about? And why was she left alone to fend for herself on Jakku as a little girl??
Han and Chewie! My god, they had the best lines.
"Isn't he a war hero?"
"*Chewie shrug*"
"What did you do when you were here?"
"Sanitation."
"SANITATION!?"
"Here, take this."
"I can handle myself."
"I know ya can. That's why I'm giving it to you."
Man, the second Han walked on that bridge to confront his son, he got covered in death flags. I sat on the edge of my seat internally screaming "NO. NONONONONONONO DON'T DO THIS TO ME STAR WARS. I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING. DAMN IT, DON'T GET ON THE BRIDGE, HAN, DON'T GET TOO CLOSE TO KYLO. NO. NO. (Han gets stabbed) NOOOOOOOO!"
Though because I saw it coming instantly, I wasn't so broken-hearted over the whole thing, which is my main critique of the movie: it was a bit too predictable for any meaningful emotional impact.
Can I just say how horrible awful bad the First Order are? Within minutes of the movie, they slaughtered an entire community of unarmed villagers in search of a droid. They kidnap and brainwash and erase people in white suits and use them for evil and mass murder. They corrupted one of Skywalker blood and built a weapon that could harness the sun and decimated five entire planets. o_o;; These guys made the Empire look like chumps.
And I liked Kylo Ren. Perfect characterization. He was that evil, weak-kneed, angst-ridden teenager with too many expectations who wanted to prove himself, but was stuck in limbo. He never killed anyone himself; he only gave the orders. He destroyed entire rooms when he was angry, throwing tantrums like a child. When he took off his mask, he was still young (and surprisingly handsome), perhaps marking that he hadn't yet been fully twisted or tainted by the Dark Side. But we left him with a scar on his face and the blood of his father on his hands, and now we'll get to watch his descent into darkness, where he will inevitably be consumed by it.
He kinda reminds me of Draco Malfoy out of Harry Potter, except less whiny and more angsty. Just a tad.
Also, Luke with a beard!
I'd go see it again. I want to see it again. And I can't wait for episode 8.
http://elfoftheforest.tumblr.com/post/136116569548/you-thought-i-was-joking
(No spoilers)
And Disney has already stated that the Clone wars TV series is part of the new canon, so they are not trying to distance themselves from that either.
I do suspect that they want clear title over the intellectual property of Star Wars Rebels. I am pretty sure that they wanted the hand-over transition to be clear and separate, but not really a lot more than that. The general impression is that the Clone Wars TV series was quite good in comparison to episodes 1-3, so why throw that out the window? But this way they can keep the good stuff and still have a claim on their own intellectual property.
Also why sith lords in training always have to be such little bitches, Ren = awesome badass with helmet on, remove helmet and Ren turns into a little whiny douchebag. That being said, at the end of the movie he was the only character I was remotely interested in finding out whats going to happen to him.
Another thing how did the completely untrained almost padawan girl beat the sith lord in training? Sure she can use the force, but that doesn't mean she knows how to actually use a lightsaber.
On a happier note it did feel like a star wars movie, that could be because half the plot is copy pasta from "A new hope", but the classic pilot shots with all that red leader, gold leader nonsense really brought me back.
On a completely different note, when is this crappy 3D gimmick going to go away. If a movie is not specifically shot for 3D, then it ends up being more of a annoyance than anything else.
And it's not like she's never fought with a weapon before; she starts off with that spear-staff thing, and is actually pretty good with it, holding her own against an entire group of scavengers. Finn actually holds off from helping her when he realizes she's doing fine in a fight.
No, she shouldn't be able to defeat Ren in a fair fight where both of them are at their best; but by that point, Ren has been hit with a blaster bolt in his side, which he spends enough time pounding with his fist to make it clear it's not just a grazing blow.
So Ren is wounded, he's not trying to kill Rey, and Rey's skilled with weapons. All of that leads to her defeating him--but even then, she doesn't kill him. Her victory is perfectly within the realm of plausible storytelling.
That IMO is why he turned to the dark side: he was expected to be a powerful Force user like his grandfather, but when he started training he turned out to be an also-ran. So when Snoke offered to show him the dark side as a quick and easy path to the power that he believed should have been his by right of inheritance he jumped at the chance.
As for Rey, I'm of the view that she already had some jedi training: see my thread on TFA and KotOR similarities.
But if we focus on Rey. Those moves were pretty darn impressive and the explanation "she knew how to use a staff" doesn't explain the level of skill she displayed. I've spent time of trampoline
but I don't expect that I could use those skill to roundhouse kick three attackers Chuck Norris style.
The notion that the force can guide your hand does satisfy but the story is missing a Ben Kenobi figure to explain this to the audience. And Jedi training off screen? Development of skills off screen is even less satisfying.
Director's cut -- Rey has dreams of light sabre fights. Problem solved.
And still, great movie. I think they did the right thing by making Kylo Ren so weak. If they tried to reboot Darth Vader I would have been disappointed.
Also, if you read Ren's twitter you will find out that Han is responsible for much of what wrong in Ren's life:
https://twitter.com/KyloR3n
I also loved how conscious they were of recapturing the original movie. From jokes about the data in the droid, to Ren being a Darth Vador wannabe.
This may have been the most perfect reboot I've ever seen.
Second, my assessment of her moves was actually much less impressive. I saw her making a lot of the same mistakes that Luke made in Empire Strikes Back during his duel with Vader: a lot of stabbing charges that any swordsman of real skill would be able to parry no problem (and Ren does so).
The moment when she starts to win is when Ren gives her a chance to calm down and open herself up to the Force, the same way that Luke opens himself up when he's working with the blast shield over his eyes. Obi-Wan doesn't train him to use his lightsaber; he just guides Luke to a place of calm so that he can listen to what the Force is telling him. Rey's sudden proficiency with the lightsaber is no different; her technique is focused, less haphazard. But I wouldn't say it's advanced; she's listening to the Force, and following its flow.
Maz is actually the one who first opens her mind up to the Force, after she touches Anakin's lightsaber for the first time. It's not a long moment, but you don't need a long moment for the lesson to be conveyed.