I would dispute that Rey's movies are at all impressive. No one in TFA had any of the flashy lightsabre movies we saw in the prequals. That's why the fights are short.
But the bottom line, going right back to the original movie, is "the Force guides our actions" - Obi Wan Kenobi. So if you are strong enough in the Force, and give yourself over to its guidence, you can do anything without needing to know how (this mechanic is in the old West End Games Star Wars d6 rpg).
Ren was hit by a Wookie bowcaster when he was still distracted by what he had just done with his father. Let's remember that at that point he is/was still divided, feeling the temptation of the light side, etc. The bowcaster is considered one of the most powerful handheld weapons in the Galaxy. That can be easily seem by the way storm troopers are thrown meters away and instantly die even when not directly hit by a shot. Ren receives a direct hit and doesn't even move. The guy was literally hit by an energy bazooka and is still able to fight. There is no way I think he can be seen as weak after that.
Later in that battle he is hit on the shoulder by a lightsaber.
Ray has been fighting with staffs since she was a child for survival's sake and I wouldn't be surprised that she is actually a better melee fighter than Ren IF she had a lightsaber staff to fight with. Actually her mistake during that fight is that she is trying to fight with a sword as if it was a staff, using stabs and strong parry moves.
Ren is fully trying not to kill her. At this point he already has orders from Sith Lord Snoke to take her to him alive. Actually Kylo Ren tries to tempt her to the Dark Side that entire fight.
So I fully expect that she will be using a double bladed lightsaber in the future and that after Kylo Ren finishes his training he'll be even more powerful and embrace the Dark Side fully.
The moment when she starts to win is when Ren gives her a chance to calm down and open herself up to the Force, the same way that Luke opens himself up when he's working with the blast shield over his eyes. Obi-Wan doesn't train him to use his lightsaber; he just guides Luke to a place of calm so that he can listen to what the Force is telling him. Rey's sudden proficiency with the lightsaber is no different; her technique is focused, less haphazard. But I wouldn't say it's advanced; she's listening to the Force, and following its flow.
Maz is actually the one who first opens her mind up to the Force, after she touches Anakin's lightsaber for the first time. It's not a long moment, but you don't need a long moment for the lesson to be conveyed.
Sure, that's the answer and we all know it But imagine that this is your first star wars film -- we only know the force from Maz, Ren and Han. It would have been that much better if we had a Ben Kenobi or a Yoda to explain the force to us. Or at least have Maz explain that we feel the force when we are calm, a peace and use it when we reach out with out feelings. To the new viewer, the force is just a can of whoop ass that gets opened at the last minute.
And I don't just want action -- I want some eastern philosophy thrown in there.
Yeah, a lot of 'Troubled' adults will go on and on about how their parents screwed them up. As to if that is true or only 'From a certain perspective', remains to be seen at least in this instance.
Yes, but we have to admit that this would turn *anyone* dark:
Dear diary the stupid ewoks are visiting again it's torture we have had to sing "yub nub" three times
I did expect somewhat of a stronger 'Sith lord'. If not necessarily Darth Vader (and that is setting the bar VERY High), perhaps at least something more than what we got.
Trigger warning:
I was pretty happy that they gave us a different sort of evil. Ren fits the model of sexual predator to a T. Low self esteem, high sense of entitlement. When he was interrogating Rey he looked like nothing so much as the creep who uses ryhypnol -- leaning in, telling his victim he take whatever he wants. I had the same sense of dread that I did when that droid came for Leia. But then Rey fights back and wins! It was a great moment.
That victory wouldn't have seemed as satisfying with Vader-like villain. The victory would have made him less of a menace. And I don't want anyone to unseat Vader as *the* evil villain.
And you are right -- a dream sequence might have spoiled the big reveal.
No one in TFA had any of the flashy lightsabre movies we saw in the prequals.
There were prequels? I thought those were unsubstantiated rumors -- like the existence of Star Trek V; everyone knows that the series skipped a number. Just like hotels don't have a 13th floor . . .
Ok, fine. I agree that the force is the answer. And I said as much in my first post in this thread. Still, I think that the movie missed an opportunity to tell us that the force was the answer. The force is interesting -- someone should be talking about it.
I finally saw the movie a couple of days ago and really liked it. I'm old enough to have seen all seven of the movies in their first theatrical releases! It did seem like a bit of a retread of A New Hope, but it didn't really bother me. The thing I found most interesting about the movie was how they used the dark/light aspects a little differently. We're used to seeing our heroes tyring their best not to go to the dark side, but now we're seeing a villain who is struggling not to let the light side of the Force uncorrupt him. I actually felt like the temper tantrums were a nice touch, as well. It revealed a lot about the character, and how he is young and angsty. Finn is a pretty interesting character, too. I'm eager to see how much of a bad-ass Rey becomes in the next movies. As the father of a young girl, I'm really happy they made the main character a strong female. And also, it was a great, fun action movie, just like the originals.
So I fully expect that she will be using a double bladed lightsaber in the future and that after Kylo Ren finishes his training he'll be even more powerful and embrace the Dark Side fully.
Yes, I'm of the opinion that the whole reason for giving her a staff is to set up her use of a double bladed sabre. But will it have yellow blades? (plug for my TFA KOTOR thread.)
By "even more powerful" I assume you mean "somewhat less feeble"? I think the real threat in the next movie will be all seven of the Knights of Ren.
So I fully expect that she will be using a double bladed lightsaber in the future and that after Kylo Ren finishes his training he'll be even more powerful and embrace the Dark Side fully.
Yes, I'm of the opinion that the whole reason for giving her a staff is to set up her use of a double bladed sabre. But will it have yellow blades? (plug for my TFA KOTOR thread.)
By "even more powerful" I assume you mean "somewhat less feeble"? I think the real threat in the next movie will be all seven of the Knights of Ren.
This "feeble" Force User is able to freeze blaster bolts in the air and extract information from the minds of his enemies, things that not even Vader or Yoda could do. His only weakness is a pathological lack of confidence in himself, probably cultivated in him by his master and the fact he's not firmly set in the Dark Side yet.
Yoda and Vader could both stop blaster bolts, they just prefered to do it less flamboyantly.
Kylo Ren's school report:
Mind Reading: A Energy Control: A Focus: E Precognition: E Mechanical Intuition: E Lightsabre Combat: F
It's actually not surpising that he sucks at lightsabre combat, since he was only trained by Luke, who had minimal formal training himself. Knowledge of things like the seven forms of lightsabre combat was pretty much lost during the purge. Possibly why Luke has been poking around old ruins.
Yoda and Vader could both stop blaster bolts, they just prefered to do it less flamboyantly.
Kylo Ren's school report:
Mind Reading: A Energy Control: A Focus: E Precognition: E Mechanical Intuition: E Lightsabre Combat: F
It's actually not surpising that he sucks at lightsabre combat, since he was only trained by Luke, who had minimal formal training himself. Knowledge of things like the seven forms of lightsabre combat was pretty much lost during the purge. Possibly why Luke has been poking around old ruins.
Although they are all in the process of been shifted to an incomprehensible numerical system, so no one will know what anyone is good at. Fairer that way.
Yoda and Vader could both stop blaster bolts, they just prefered to do it less flamboyantly.
Vader could deflect blaster bolts. I don't recall him actually ever freezing/holding a bolt in place for any length of time. And Ren did it so effortlessly that it seemed like he almost forgot it was there and had to mentally release it at the end. That is significantly more control than we've seen thus far.
but now we're seeing a villain who is struggling not to let the light side of the Force uncorrupt him.
From his perspective, I am sure that he was trying to prevent the light side from corrupting him, not uncorrupting him.
I also thought that the temper tantrums were quite appropriate and necessary. We never (almost never) saw Vader or the Emperor exhibit such, but Obi Wan and Yoda both seemed to express that Anger, fear and aggression were parts of the dark side.
But the bottom line, going right back to the original movie, is "the Force guides our actions" - Obi Wan Kenobi. So if you are strong enough in the Force, and give yourself over to its guidence, you can do anything without needing to know how (this mechanic is in the old West End Games Star Wars d6 rpg).
for referencing the WEG Star Wars RPG!
One thing I liked about the movie was that the villain (Ben) was "unfinished" (as JJ put it). Vader was a menacing villain in Star Wars, but he really had little room for development - at least until his redemption at the end (although Episode III ruined that).
It will be interesting to see Ben and Rey develop over the next two films until their climactic clash in Episode IX.
Yoda and Vader could both stop blaster bolts, they just prefered to do it less flamboyantly.
Vader could deflect blaster bolts. I don't recall him actually ever freezing/holding a bolt in place for any length of time. And Ren did it so effortlessly that it seemed like he almost forgot it was there and had to mentally release it at the end. That is significantly more control than we've seen thus far.
but now we're seeing a villain who is struggling not to let the light side of the Force uncorrupt him.
From his perspective, I am sure that he was trying to prevent the light side from corrupting him, not uncorrupting him.
I also thought that the temper tantrums were quite appropriate and necessary. We never (almost never) saw Vader or the Emperor exhibit such, but Obi Wan and Yoda both seemed to express that Anger, fear and aggression were parts of the dark side.
To be fair, we saw Vader straight up murder tons of his own guys for failure.
Yoda and Vader could both stop blaster bolts, they just prefered to do it less flamboyantly.
Vader could deflect blaster bolts. I don't recall him actually ever freezing/holding a bolt in place for any length of time. And Ren did it so effortlessly that it seemed like he almost forgot it was there and had to mentally release it at the end. That is significantly more control than we've seen thus far.
but now we're seeing a villain who is struggling not to let the light side of the Force uncorrupt him.
From his perspective, I am sure that he was trying to prevent the light side from corrupting him, not uncorrupting him.
I also thought that the temper tantrums were quite appropriate and necessary. We never (almost never) saw Vader or the Emperor exhibit such, but Obi Wan and Yoda both seemed to express that Anger, fear and aggression were parts of the dark side.
To be fair, we saw Vader straight up murder tons of his own guys for failure.
This is the point. Kylo Ren is to "weak" in the Dark Side to simply murder people, so he takes his anger out on the furniture instead.
This is the point. Kylo Ren is to "weak" in the Dark Side to simply murder people, so he takes his anger out on the furniture instead.
I don't see that. There might be any number of reasons why he doesn't go around indiscriminately killing the minions. And in fact in several scenes it is clear that he has a reputation for being quite lethal with the help. It's just that he doesn't reach that point where he feels it is necessary or warranted when there are nice consoles in evidence.
Possibly why Luke has been poking around old ruins.
My guess is they are going to build upon a theme in the EU: the force is out of balance and it was inevitable that a champion of the dark and of the light would rise. Ren and Rey are the two necessary halves of the awakened force.
It would explain the imagery around Luke's hand. Why has he lost the artificial skin if not to emphasize that Luke's left hand is that which he inherited from Anakin and the right is what he became when he confronted Vader. Luke is man and machine -- both light and dark. Luke might be walking away from Yoda's teachings towards an insight gleaned by the Je'daii order -- there must be balance in the force. This is why he is mucking around in the first Jedi Temple.
Now this is stretch but bear with me. The sci-fi classic Metropolis ends when 'the mediator' brings together the 'the head' and 'the hands'. Between the head and the hands must be the heart! Could JJ Abrams be referencing this story -- a story with its own "machine man" and two warring sides? Could it be that the light and the dark need to be brought together and the new Jedi will be a Janus-faced order?
My guess is they are going to build upon a theme in the EU: the force is out of balance and it was inevitable that a champion of the dark and of the light would rise. Ren and Rey are the two necessary halves of the awakened force.
This was a theme in the movies as well. In the 1-3 episodes, they talked about how The force was out of balance and that the chosen one (believed to be Anakin) was supposed to bring balance to the force. I'm pretty sure that they mentioned that in the original movies as well. I can't remember specifically where, but I want to say that Yoda was talking to Ghost Obi Wan at the time. Anyway, the theory was that it wasn't actually Anakin/Vader but Luke.
I always thought Anakin did a pretty decent job of balancing things.
pre Anakin: jedi everywhere, with huge status and influence hardly any sith, everyone thinks they're extinct greedy is the closest thing to evil we see some of the good guys seem a bit corrupt, but things are going well
post Anakin: hardly any jedi hardly any sith the empire is pretty evil the rebels seem pretty good
"Metropolis" might look more fascinating today from a visual perspective than it did even at the time. A truly seminal film that hopefully will still be preserved hundreds of years from now. It's an absolute miracle that it was made in 1927. I feel like it has more effective special effects than half the movies made today.
@SethDavis - true enough. I always saw it that The Force was strong with the Skywalker family. So, pretty much as you say, pre Anakin, the Jedi are pretty much all powerful with very few Sith. Along came 'The chosen one'. The Jedi fall and the dark lord rises (Vader). Then Luke comes along and brings down the Sith with the death of Vader and Palpatine. Now, no Sith and almost no Jedi. Balance (er more or less). So 'The Chosen one' was in fact two.
I suppose if we go with the concept that the original was intended to be 9 movies, 7-9 would have been bringing back a very few jedi (under luke) and one or two Sith.
It's interesting to see other takes on the whole balance in the force thing. I never thought of it as a purely numerical deal before, having more Jedi than Sith therefore the force is out of balance. I always thought the balance of the force thing was a internal problem and Luke was the Jedi to fix it because he has both negative and positive emotions but never falls to the dark side. Luke walks the line between light and dark without falling, making him a Gray Jedi. So my take on the balance in the force thing was always that Luke would balance the force within himself and then teach a next generation of Jedi to be balanced as well.
@SmilingSword - perhaps I miss-spoke. I don't see it 'Necessarily' as a numerical one for one thing on a person level. With Sith, there is always one master and one apprentice. Jedi tend to proliferate like rabbits but tend on the whole to be a whole lot less impactful.
But it is relatively clear that the Jedi were 'Top dog' prior to the Clone wars. Then, during the rise of the Empire, Sith was clearly dominant despite the fact that Obi Wan and Yoda and the Skywalker kids existed and even Asaj Ventress and Asoka Tano who are now canon (not to mention the various other non-canon EU Jedi character).
Regarding the whole "Internal" thing, I tend to see it at least in part that way myself, but think that it is a whole lot more complex than simply one aspect over the other. I assume that you know Lucas originally intended Luke to fall to the Dark Side at the end of what was originally called "Revenge of the Jedi". I personally thought that would have been an interesting story to pursue with 7-9 being about his ultimate redemption. Still, I am very thrilled about 'The Force Awakens' and am just as happy with the new direction.
Finally when George gets kicked to the curb, you would think that someone with imagination could come up with some cool bad ass names for characters. Snoke? WTF kind of name is Snoke? This appears to be the person who is taking over Palpatines place and his name is Snoke? It reminds me of Snookie.
This is the point. Kylo Ren is to "weak" in the Dark Side to simply murder people, so he takes his anger out on the furniture instead.
I don't see that. There might be any number of reasons why he doesn't go around indiscriminately killing the minions. And in fact in several scenes it is clear that he has a reputation for being quite lethal with the help. It's just that he doesn't reach that point where he feels it is necessary or warranted when there are nice consoles in evidence.
This is the point. Kylo Ren is to "weak" in the Dark Side to simply murder people, so he takes his anger out on the furniture instead.
I don't see that. There might be any number of reasons why he doesn't go around indiscriminately killing the minions. And in fact in several scenes it is clear that he has a reputation for being quite lethal with the help. It's just that he doesn't reach that point where he feels it is necessary or warranted when there are nice consoles in evidence.
Destruction of furniture is a sign of impotance.
The strong bottle up thier anger to use later.
Or, the destruction of property is much more easily replaced than personnel.
The intelligent only kill when it serves a purpose.
I suspect in Episode 8 we'll see Kylo Ren having a lot less care for human assets. Computer terminals might be replaceable, but they're more expensive than people: you can always hire replacement people, but computer parts have to be bought and manufactured.
Comments
But the bottom line, going right back to the original movie, is "the Force guides our actions" - Obi Wan Kenobi. So if you are strong enough in the Force, and give yourself over to its guidence, you can do anything without needing to know how (this mechanic is in the old West End Games Star Wars d6 rpg).
Ren was hit by a Wookie bowcaster when he was still distracted by what he had just done with his father. Let's remember that at that point he is/was still divided, feeling the temptation of the light side, etc. The bowcaster is considered one of the most powerful handheld weapons in the Galaxy. That can be easily seem by the way storm troopers are thrown meters away and instantly die even when not directly hit by a shot. Ren receives a direct hit and doesn't even move. The guy was literally hit by an energy bazooka and is still able to fight. There is no way I think he can be seen as weak after that.
Later in that battle he is hit on the shoulder by a lightsaber.
Ray has been fighting with staffs since she was a child for survival's sake and I wouldn't be surprised that she is actually a better melee fighter than Ren IF she had a lightsaber staff to fight with. Actually her mistake during that fight is that she is trying to fight with a sword as if it was a staff, using stabs and strong parry moves.
Ren is fully trying not to kill her. At this point he already has orders from Sith Lord Snoke to take her to him alive. Actually Kylo Ren tries to tempt her to the Dark Side that entire fight.
So I fully expect that she will be using a double bladed lightsaber in the future and that after Kylo Ren finishes his training he'll be even more powerful and embrace the Dark Side fully.
Not much is known about them, but the suspicion is this is the same group that the Inquisitors from Rebels belong too.
And I don't just want action -- I want some eastern philosophy thrown in there.
Yes, but we have to admit that this would turn *anyone* dark:
Dear diary the stupid ewoks are visiting again it's torture we have had to sing "yub nub" three times
*shudder* Trigger warning:
That victory wouldn't have seemed as satisfying with Vader-like villain. The victory would have made him less of a menace. And I don't want anyone to unseat Vader as *the* evil villain.
And you are right -- a dream sequence might have spoiled the big reveal. There were prequels? I thought those were unsubstantiated rumors -- like the existence of Star Trek V; everyone knows that the series skipped a number. Just like hotels don't have a 13th floor . . .
Ok, fine. I agree that the force is the answer. And I said as much in my first post in this thread. Still, I think that the movie missed an opportunity to tell us that the force was the answer. The force is interesting -- someone should be talking about it.
More words, less fight!
I AM DYING
OF LAUGHTER
The thing I found most interesting about the movie was how they used the dark/light aspects a little differently. We're used to seeing our heroes tyring their best not to go to the dark side, but now we're seeing a villain who is struggling not to let the light side of the Force uncorrupt him. I actually felt like the temper tantrums were a nice touch, as well. It revealed a lot about the character, and how he is young and angsty. Finn is a pretty interesting character, too. I'm eager to see how much of a bad-ass Rey becomes in the next movies. As the father of a young girl, I'm really happy they made the main character a strong female.
And also, it was a great, fun action movie, just like the originals.
By "even more powerful" I assume you mean "somewhat less feeble"? I think the real threat in the next movie will be all seven of the Knights of Ren.
Kylo Ren's school report:
Mind Reading: A
Energy Control: A
Focus: E
Precognition: E
Mechanical Intuition: E
Lightsabre Combat: F
It's actually not surpising that he sucks at lightsabre combat, since he was only trained by Luke, who had minimal formal training himself. Knowledge of things like the seven forms of lightsabre combat was pretty much lost during the purge. Possibly why Luke has been poking around old ruins.
Although they are all in the process of been shifted to an incomprehensible numerical system, so no one will know what anyone is good at. Fairer that way.
I also thought that the temper tantrums were quite appropriate and necessary. We never (almost never) saw Vader or the Emperor exhibit such, but Obi Wan and Yoda both seemed to express that Anger, fear and aggression were parts of the dark side.
One thing I liked about the movie was that the villain (Ben) was "unfinished" (as JJ put it). Vader was a menacing villain in Star Wars, but he really had little room for development - at least until his redemption at the end (although Episode III ruined that).
It will be interesting to see Ben and Rey develop over the next two films until their climactic clash in Episode IX.
It would explain the imagery around Luke's hand. Why has he lost the artificial skin if not to emphasize that Luke's left hand is that which he inherited from Anakin and the right is what he became when he confronted Vader. Luke is man and machine -- both light and dark. Luke might be walking away from Yoda's teachings towards an insight gleaned by the Je'daii order -- there must be balance in the force. This is why he is mucking around in the first Jedi Temple.
Now this is stretch but bear with me. The sci-fi classic Metropolis ends when 'the mediator' brings together the 'the head' and 'the hands'. Between the head and the hands must be the heart! Could JJ Abrams be referencing this story -- a story with its own "machine man" and two warring sides? Could it be that the light and the dark need to be brought together and the new Jedi will be a Janus-faced order?
Perhaps Finn is the heart?
( also, long live the Twofold Trust!)
pre Anakin:
jedi everywhere, with huge status and influence
hardly any sith, everyone thinks they're extinct
greedy is the closest thing to evil we see
some of the good guys seem a bit corrupt, but things are going well
post Anakin:
hardly any jedi
hardly any sith
the empire is pretty evil
the rebels seem pretty good
I suppose if we go with the concept that the original was intended to be 9 movies, 7-9 would have been bringing back a very few jedi (under luke) and one or two Sith.
But it is relatively clear that the Jedi were 'Top dog' prior to the Clone wars. Then, during the rise of the Empire, Sith was clearly dominant despite the fact that Obi Wan and Yoda and the Skywalker kids existed and even Asaj Ventress and Asoka Tano who are now canon (not to mention the various other non-canon EU Jedi character).
Regarding the whole "Internal" thing, I tend to see it at least in part that way myself, but think that it is a whole lot more complex than simply one aspect over the other. I assume that you know Lucas originally intended Luke to fall to the Dark Side at the end of what was originally called "Revenge of the Jedi". I personally thought that would have been an interesting story to pursue with 7-9 being about his ultimate redemption. Still, I am very thrilled about 'The Force Awakens' and am just as happy with the new direction.
The strong bottle up thier anger to use later.
The intelligent only kill when it serves a purpose.