I'm just talking about the class in general - I just require a rogue to open locks and disarm traps. I really liked how in ICW they incorporated 3rd adtion rules, crippling strike and sneak attack.
Trying to manage a 6 or 5 man party the theif class becomes much to of an oversight to try and utilize their backstap ability.
For a pure thief they can be underwhelming, sure...but...
A swashbuckler, even as a pure thief, can do real damage. Use any item with the scarlet ninjato and belm gives 3apr. Add in the heaviest plate around, and the insane bonuses to AC, Thaco and damage? They become a tank, damage dealer, scout, trap setter and thief.
Assassins can make several fights trivial with poison. Poison+darts (3apr) will make anything (including dragons) cry.
Bounty Hunters are a whole different kind of cheese. They have a wide array of deadly traps that, if used right, change how the game is played.
And shadowdancers...I all but solo'd BG1 with one (took a few party members at different stages for fun). There is a way to backstab and then hide immediately so you can never be seen. Add in shadow step for emergencies and they are pretty much designed to take on enemies alone.
And finally when multi or dual classed they add a new level to characters. Imoen shows how a few thief levels gets you the thief you need and bows for a Mage to use when not 'wasting' spells.
And if you are like me, then you'll love fighter-thieves. My dwarf FT would backstab and then switch to Carsomyr. Doing so with the headband of the devout to guarantee max damage was just tasty.
And right now I used a swashbuckler dualed to fighter to make a new fighter kit. Dual at lvl 5 for +2 AC, +1 Thaco/damage, and 100% detect illusions. It makes for a fighter who can see through pesky Mage defenses, which is really useful. You can use that even while wearing heavy armor. And unlike other fighter kits, he is just better at fighting. The 70% pickpockets is just icing on the cake.
So thieves are great...if you aren't a generic unkitted thief.
Thieves require a bit more work and creativity, but what they can do is limitless in ToB levels. HLA traps kill everything and they can use any item.
Even before HLAs, their regular traps, and thief skills make many challenges easier. With enough skill points, thieves can also loot trapped treasure chests and shopkeepers with ease, hence they WORK under the rules system. I see no redundancy in having a thief.
Jan is the single most useful party member in bg2 IMHO. He can steal scrolls, locks/traps are no problem for him, he can detect illusions limitlessly, has his special ammo that can come VERY handy if it does its trick, and on top of all that utility he can cast mage spells! Sure he is no Edwin but a better mage than Aerie, thanks to +1 spell/level for being illusionist. He also has saving throw bonuses for being a gnome, so a lot durable than Aerie, as well. Poison and ghoul/ghast attacks are his only weakness, as gnomes do not get save bonus against paralyse/poison/death.
So if you don't like the micro-management of a pure thief, a mage/thief or fighter/thief is a lot more powerful and versatile! Tweaked to perfection kensai/thieves are a terror to behold when backstabbing with kai, too. Like, 'I always do 90 damage when backstabbing. Without a critical.'
I'm just talking about the class in general - I just require a rogue to open locks and disarm traps. I really liked how in ICW they incorporated 3rd adtion rules, crippling strike and sneak attack.
Trying to manage a 6 or 5 man party the theif class becomes much to of an oversight to try and utilize their backstap ability.
If so, then Beamdog is not to blame here. Baldur's Gate was created by Bioware.
The thing about rogues in general is that powergaming them requires a creative mind; what makes rogues (both bards and thieves) unique is that they're all about options. Want better items? Steal. Want faster XP? Disarm Traps/Open Locks/Memorize spells. Need an easy way to get through most encounters? Use traps. Need an impromptu magic user/warrior? Use the right combination of weapons/gear/wands/potions/scrolls/etc. This is on top of all the little things like need someone who can also potentially take down that annoying wizard in one hit? Need someone who can also (stealthily) drop Daystar's Sunray in the middle of a group of undead? Need someone who can also scout the area to check out random spawns and so you know where to drop your AoEs? Need someone who can also potentially dispel illusions at-will? Need someone who can also be an on-demand archer ? (for those unique stun/paralysis/poison/fire/acid/etc ammo) The basic formula seems to be: need something->consider your options, and rogues generally have more of these than most other classes, especially at higher levels. You can blame that on the fact that BG2 seems to be overflowing with powerful magic items, and rogues can use most of them.
The effect of having a good rogue in the party is subtle, unless we're talking about something as OP as BG2's F/T or the Blade/Skald. No one ever seems to appreciate the fact that these parties are running around with a lot more XP/better gear and are tackling challenging content faster and with a lot less effort or hassle. People tend to fixate on end game and fixed numbers, though I suppose learning that relative growth and progress is ultimately what matters is the prerogative of the experienced gamer. Numbers are nice, but context is more important.
On top of what's been said, there's very few enemies in the game that can't be destroyed by a hasted thief backstabbing, running away to hide in shadows again, and repeating. And with Boots of Speed, you can do that all day.
How Beamdog is responsible for the alleged shortcomings of the thief class? Sure, they made the Shadowdancer kit, but that was hardly the topic of this complaint.
Don't forget Improved Haste for 8 attacks per round with the Swashbuckler, or six for the poison weapon Assassin. Also, I pretty much never use traps simply because they make the game too easy. Think on that.
A lot of this game's replayability comes from seeing what you can do with class combinations you'd never considered before. Case in point: I recently finished a TOB runthrough with a Skald, which taught me two things:
1. The Skald's Bard Song is extremely powerful, unlike the vanilla bard.
2. Even non-Blade Bards are still quite credible in a fight. Stoneskin, Mirror Image, Improved Invisibility, and Improved Haste with a speed weapon and a strength item will give a good account of itself, fighter levels or not.
I guess my main beef, by a drunken slur, I said, is tecnically, without any scouring enhancements, (I'm not putting any more comas in this sentence)
Is Rogues along with Clerics and druids should get an extra 1/2 attack in the game mechanics. But with so many peeps who say other wise my point becomes mute.
Are you kidding? I think we should all adopt "the greatest retardation" as a term from now on. As in, "I think SoD is a great expansion overall, but some of the sidequests were the greatest retardation."
My problem with the title is that it says "AD[&]D", not "BG" or "IE". The reason the thief doesn't measure up to the other classes is because it isn't really a combat class. A thief really shines outside of combat in a real PnP roleplaying game. The limitations of a computer game mean combat gets emphasized over RP, which diminishes the thief's usefulness. (Also, no climbing, no leaping across rooftops, no spying...)
Another consideration is, once you've played the game a few times, you know where everything is. When I played IWD for the first time, and now in my first playthrough of IWD2, my thief is out front all the time. But you don't need to scout when you already know what's around every corner, and trap finding just becomes: Move thief near the hidden trap, hit search, disarm trap.
That really sums it up well. I'm currently playing a party of 4 in BG - human fighter beserker, dwarven priest of Lathander, gnome bounty hunter, and elven sorcer, so we'll see.
Tymaker
Member Posts: 105
Comments
Trying to manage a 6 or 5 man party the theif class becomes much to of an oversight to try and utilize their backstap ability.
A swashbuckler, even as a pure thief, can do real damage. Use any item with the scarlet ninjato and belm gives 3apr. Add in the heaviest plate around, and the insane bonuses to AC, Thaco and damage? They become a tank, damage dealer, scout, trap setter and thief.
Assassins can make several fights trivial with poison. Poison+darts (3apr) will make anything (including dragons) cry.
Bounty Hunters are a whole different kind of cheese. They have a wide array of deadly traps that, if used right, change how the game is played.
And shadowdancers...I all but solo'd BG1 with one (took a few party members at different stages for fun). There is a way to backstab and then hide immediately so you can never be seen. Add in shadow step for emergencies and they are pretty much designed to take on enemies alone.
And finally when multi or dual classed they add a new level to characters. Imoen shows how a few thief levels gets you the thief you need and bows for a Mage to use when not 'wasting' spells.
And if you are like me, then you'll love fighter-thieves. My dwarf FT would backstab and then switch to Carsomyr. Doing so with the headband of the devout to guarantee max damage was just tasty.
And right now I used a swashbuckler dualed to fighter to make a new fighter kit. Dual at lvl 5 for +2 AC, +1 Thaco/damage, and 100% detect illusions. It makes for a fighter who can see through pesky Mage defenses, which is really useful. You can use that even while wearing heavy armor. And unlike other fighter kits, he is just better at fighting. The 70% pickpockets is just icing on the cake.
So thieves are great...if you aren't a generic unkitted thief.
Even before HLAs, their regular traps, and thief skills make many challenges easier. With enough skill points, thieves can also loot trapped treasure chests and shopkeepers with ease, hence they WORK under the rules system. I see no redundancy in having a thief.
Jan is the single most useful party member in bg2 IMHO. He can steal scrolls, locks/traps are no problem for him, he can detect illusions limitlessly, has his special ammo that can come VERY handy if it does its trick, and on top of all that utility he can cast mage spells! Sure he is no Edwin but a better mage than Aerie, thanks to +1 spell/level for being illusionist. He also has saving throw bonuses for being a gnome, so a lot durable than Aerie, as well. Poison and ghoul/ghast attacks are his only weakness, as gnomes do not get save bonus against paralyse/poison/death.
So if you don't like the micro-management of a pure thief, a mage/thief or fighter/thief is a lot more powerful and versatile! Tweaked to perfection kensai/thieves are a terror to behold when backstabbing with kai, too. Like, 'I always do 90 damage when backstabbing. Without a critical.'
Also, take a note, that in IWDEE you actually can activate the sneak attacks, and with https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/37833/a-bunch-of-neat-baldur-ini-options-in-bg2ee-1-3-that-ive-noticed-carry-overs-from-iwdee#latest you can activate them in BG2EE. With the next patches you'll be able to do it easier in BG2EE and maybe in BGEE as well.
There're a lot of useful tips about using thieves here: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/42958/how-do-you-play-your-thieves-in-combat
Want better items? Steal. Want faster XP? Disarm Traps/Open Locks/Memorize spells. Need an easy way to get through most encounters? Use traps. Need an impromptu magic user/warrior? Use the right combination of weapons/gear/wands/potions/scrolls/etc. This is on top of all the little things like need someone who can also potentially take down that annoying wizard in one hit? Need someone who can also (stealthily) drop Daystar's Sunray in the middle of a group of undead? Need someone who can also scout the area to check out random spawns and so you know where to drop your AoEs? Need someone who can also potentially dispel illusions at-will? Need someone who can also be an on-demand archer ? (for those unique stun/paralysis/poison/fire/acid/etc ammo)
The basic formula seems to be: need something->consider your options, and rogues generally have more of these than most other classes, especially at higher levels.
You can blame that on the fact that BG2 seems to be overflowing with powerful magic items, and rogues can use most of them.
The effect of having a good rogue in the party is subtle, unless we're talking about something as OP as BG2's F/T or the Blade/Skald. No one ever seems to appreciate the fact that these parties are running around with a lot more XP/better gear and are tackling challenging content faster and with a lot less effort or hassle.
People tend to fixate on end game and fixed numbers, though I suppose learning that relative growth and progress is ultimately what matters is the prerogative of the experienced gamer.
Numbers are nice, but context is more important.
It really comes down to attack rate, like rogues, clerics, and druids should get an extra 1/2 attack at like level 9.
And good job on the Shadowdancer class.
Scarlet ninjato
Belm
4 attacks per round
Assassin
Poison weapon
Darts
3 attacks per round of pure death
1. The Skald's Bard Song is extremely powerful, unlike the vanilla bard.
2. Even non-Blade Bards are still quite credible in a fight. Stoneskin, Mirror Image, Improved Invisibility, and Improved Haste with a speed weapon and a strength item will give a good account of itself, fighter levels or not.
I guess my main beef, by a drunken slur, I said, is tecnically, without any scouring enhancements, (I'm not putting any more comas in this sentence)
Is Rogues along with Clerics and druids should get an extra 1/2 attack in the game mechanics. But with so many peeps who say other wise my point becomes mute.
Sorry Beamdog
lol but I will say not using a blunt weapon on a skeleton is very mildly retarded...
Another consideration is, once you've played the game a few times, you know where everything is. When I played IWD for the first time, and now in my first playthrough of IWD2, my thief is out front all the time. But you don't need to scout when you already know what's around every corner, and trap finding just becomes: Move thief near the hidden trap, hit search, disarm trap.
Cheers