How do you play your thieves in combat?
kingblah
Member Posts: 12
Safana, Imoen etc - How do you use them in combat? Do you shove one of the AI scripts on them and let them range / melee? (One thing I've noticed is that the AI scripts tend to prefer either melee or range, and don't like you 'force-switching' between them).
Or do you manually control them in combat - keeping them in shadows when you can and trying to backstab?
I'm a pretty new player to the BG series (played BG2 when it first came out but this was a long long time ago!) and I think I'm under-using my thieves! I've never been able to get sneak attacks in properly - I find hiding in shadows etc too much hassle - is there an easier way?
Or do you manually control them in combat - keeping them in shadows when you can and trying to backstab?
I'm a pretty new player to the BG series (played BG2 when it first came out but this was a long long time ago!) and I think I'm under-using my thieves! I've never been able to get sneak attacks in properly - I find hiding in shadows etc too much hassle - is there an easier way?
2
Comments
To hide in shadows remember it literally means that, in shadows: Find a shadow (a simple tree will do).
*Or spam them with darts or arrows. Hide in shadows is also useful just to position your adventurers, even if they are not thiefs.
I keep them at range. A rogues higher than normal dex allows them to hot more often with ranged weapons than with melee.
On the rare occasion I have them in shadows, I will position them behind a target that is already engaged to attempt a backstab. Using invisibility pots allows you to have a second and third go at it.
Invisibility also allows you to gimp on stealth in the early going and still gets you the backstabbing action.
Mostly they get a shortbow and just rain the pain from safety.
Also, I seem to have bad luck when it comes to stealth with it breaking at the wrong time, so backstabbing is usually only when I have potions of invisibility.
Generally, ranged attacks are better for thieves in BG1 (particularly the NPC ones) for a few reasons:
1.) NPC thieves typically have good dex scores, which means you'll hit reasonably often, and most ranged options give you multiple attacks per round.
2.) Stealth is pretty unreliable unless you put a lot of points into it, so unless you're patient enough to endure multiple "Hide in Shadows: failed" messages (and waiting around until you can try again the next round), you won't be sneaking too much until mid-to-late game without invisibility potions/spells.
3.) Most NPC thieves don't have much of a bonus to hit in melee (with the possible exception of Montaron), so you tend to miss on a lot backstab attempts anyway (even with the bonus to hit from stealth).
4.) NPC thieves tend to have mediocre AC at best and usually lay at the shallow end of the HP pool, so staying away from melee tends to increase their odds of surviving substantially.
Note that this doesn't mean that you shouldn't ever try backstabbing - you can down a few potions first to compensate for these shortcomings (invisibility, potion of power, maybe strength, and/or defense). And if you find you enjoy the stealthy lifestyle, you could always just make a charname that is better designed for backstabbing.
Thieves, as a general rule, aren't very useful unless multiclassed or dual classed. Going for the multiclass thieves and think about how you can incorporate thieving skills into the other classes style.
1. Scouting. While being hidden in shadows, my thief is discovering a location to find groups of enemies and ways to get close the them safely.
2. Backstabbing those creates who are alone. All my party is waiting nearby (so that after the backstab the thief could retreat and my warriors could finish the opponent). Or maybe the party is far away, and my thief is trying to hide in shadows while retreating from the enemy after his first attack (using corners and other objects to get away from the enemy's line of sight).
3. In difficult fights, I constantly move a thief away from the fight so that she could hide again and come back with a new backstab. If the thief is hasted (due to a spell, or an item, or a potion), it's much easier. So my thief works this way: backstab-retreat while others are fighting-hide in shadows-come back-backstab.
4. In even more difficul fights, I use invisibility potions or items whose charges grant invisibility so that my thief shouldn't go away to make a new backstab.
5. Detect Illusions! Really, this ability is awesome. If I don't need a backstab and instead much more need to purge several magic protections from a caster, my thief detects illusions and voila! No more Invisibility and Mirror Images on that wizard!
6. Set traps when you've found a difficult enemy. Scout ahead, find a safe place to set traps not very far from the enemy, backstab him and lure to the traps. Works especially good with a bounty hunter due to her special traps, but a general thief will work fine as well.
7. If using an assassin, activate her poison weapon and attack with missile weapon that has a good amount of APR (darts, for ex). This poison will quickly stop any spellcasting of your enemy and finish him off.
8. Of course, no AI, each action is controlled by a player.
Calling @Blackraven , @Quartz and @Southpaw who are thieves' fans like me
I pretty much always use them as archers, and avoid any form of melee, if at all possible. I think I tried back- stabbing once, more trouble than it was worth...
To add to bengoshi's 5th point: it's possible to fight and Detect Illusions at the same time: target an opponent and then activate the Detect Traps/Illusions button. The Thief will continue attacking their enemy. Note that this works best with range attacks because Thieves generally need to move around a lot in melee. They disengage and attack, disengage and attack. This breaks the Detect Illusions activity. If otoh you're attacking an enemy with a range weapon, and a party member is keeping that enemy busy in melee, you can continue firing and detecting illusions at the same time.
As others above I also never rely on AI in combat.
But the aTweaks mod has a nice 'Simple Thief Script' as it is called, which makes a Thief attempt to either Detect Traps/Illusions when idle or Hide in Shadows when idle. These two actions are toggleable. This isn't really a combat script but it can be helpful in combat anyway. Recommended.
One of the most fun games I've had was in BG:EE with a 3 rogue party. That way we could distribute the skills evenly and all of them could focus on stealth, making the fights very interesting with backstabs, potions, poisonous darts and even wands.
I mean sure killing Drizzt for them is a bit evil. But she looks too cool doing it to pass up on it
How do I do it? It's quite simple.
1) Aggression control. Sure, your thief is getting scrappy, but that doesn't change your lower health and armor class numbers. Have the guy or gal that's "full-plate and packing steel" go first, when your enemies take the literal human bait, move your thief in to slice n' dice.
2) Skill up combat related skills. Namely, Set Traps and Detect Illusion, This one is pretty simple. You skill Detect Illusion because your easily in range to dispel any illusions. Secondly, Set Traps because they add to your overall damage output.
3) Hold your ground. Even if you get low, do you absolute best to stay in the fight, Chug a potion or have someone heal you, you need to keep rolling attacks. The main reason you can't just back out is because if you do, your damage output plummets to an awe-inspiring ZERO.
A thief in the front line is certainly weaker in the majority of the early levels. But, stick with it and especially when you start to get high level abilities in BG2, you become a monster in a fight.
(Just to note: Following the trend of this thread one thing still holds true here. Don't use AI.)
I make extensive use of potion of invisibility and back stabs and I like to carefully micro my thieves, usually sending the tanks in to engage and then poking around the enemy flanks and rear. Hold person is also a favorite from the mage/cleric or both. Slow can also be handy.
I never use ANY AI. I like to pause and manually control all my characters to make sure they do exactly what I want when I want them to.
Sometimes I use Imoen with a crossbow, the Crossbow of Speed or Firetooth being my personal favorites. I have a very strong love of a party with mixed ranged weapons and try to have a decent archer, slinger and crossbowman available with various assorted fun ammo.
Assassins, assassinate mages and the like at the beginning of combat. Poison weapon is ridicules. Then run away or use a magic item or potion to backstab again.
With Bounty Hunters I like to set a few traps for harder battles and then stealth up scout the enemy and then initiate the fight with a thrown trap from the within the fog of war.
Swashies are fighters who sometimes set traps.
Pure class is something I try to avoid.
Immy and Jan are mages who sometimes set traps and detect illusions.
Shadow Dancer is a lot of micro management, but also very fun. backstab HIPS backstab.
Fighter/Thief does whatever I feel like at the time I suppose, traps, backstabs, potion popping or just straight up brawling.
Most of my Rogue CHARNAMEs tend to duel wield swords or sometimes use single weapon style. For some reason I don't quite understand all the NPC rogue toons I pick are always ranged all the time.
Most of my duel wielders use a some type of sword in the main hand and a dagger on the off hand.
I have never used a quaterstaff to backstab, I find the concept a bit too silly. Not the actual backstab bit mind you, I understand the whole crushing a skull from behind thing, it's the remaining in stealth while holding a quaterstaff bit, especially something like staff of the ram, with it's glowing crystal thing it's got going on.
I like to have 2 guys with rogue abilities, one melee thief or ranger scouting ahead in shadows and a ranged thief slightly behind detecting traps. I never use AI and like to micromanage everything.
Melee with thieves is viable, but unless you've built your thief deliberately to deal melee damage, it's not effective. Imoen with her 9 strength isn't going to be winning any duels. On the other hand, take, for instance, a half-orc 19 strength assassin with poison weapon backstabbing the target for ~40-50 damage at an early level then retreating for another round. That is far more damage than you'd get from attacking at range. It is certainly risky, and I've suffered from my thieves dying because the enemy got a hit off as soon as they changed aggro, but the damage potential is far higher than the 6-10 damage that a ranged thief outputs every round.
Two-weapon fighting is quite overrated. Those extra attacks come with the risk of taking more hits yourself if you're standing around hoping to land them. Single weapon fighting doubles critical rate, so it's actually a superior option for a hit and fade strategy.
Nowadays, if my main character is a thief, I always build him/her with melee in mind. It's just more fun and my thief actually feels like an asset rather than a support. Melee thieves are awesome and underrated, most NPC thieves are sadly not well built for melee so it's not a very explored playstyle imo.
Seriously, though, it depends on the kit. Swashbucklers are melee, bounty hunters and vanilla thieves are ranged, and assassins are a bit of both.
Safana= the one who gets behind them and stabs!
A hiding script is the best approach to make a backstabber less micro intensive.
Having your rogues simply stay ranged is definitely the easiest option, but there are definitely benefits to having a scouter/assassin type. Plus I like a little bit of spice in my gameplay.
It's better now with decent thief scripts about. Back in the day I never bothered backstabbing, save for the rarest meta'd out encounters. Nowadays, I get back stabs in on every stray pack of giberlings.
For most battles I have my thieves, fighters, clerics and druids on standard attack and mages on nothing (until I get a good supply of darts for the mages to also use them with standard attack). For thrash mobs I seldom position, buff or prepare for battles, but I do manually change targets if my party's targeting/pathing is messed up (which ofc happens alot in BG).
This is without SCS and usually with a full party with good-geared NPC's (like Dorn, Minsc, Shar-teel, Coran, Kivan etc) who can surivive on their own without much micro management. The first levels before you got decent gear is of course more micro-dependant, but once you reach a decent character and gear level, "standard attack" kills pretty much everything.
]Medium-maintenance Thieves (some micromanagement) - scout ahead, prepare traps before the start of fight, maybe do a backstab + after the first round resort to ranged damage [Bounty Hunter]
High-maintenance Thieves (lots of micromanagement) - scout ahead, hide in shadows, lay traps, backstab, poison, run, hide, creep back for another backstab. Most micromanagement inolved, but also best results. [Assassin, Shadow Dancer]