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Druids, arcane and divine spells, bard songs in SoD. What would you like: BG or IWDEE style?

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  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,446
    Mix it all
    Yeah I kind of saw that and was like. Oh. It's continuing. XD

    On the subject of things. I feel like if Bards don't get innate different Bard songs mayyybbee there should be new equipment that provides similar effects? Idk if these already exist but like

    Siren's Harp: Charms targets in a 30 yd area.
    War Drums: Increase THAC0 and Damage of allies in 30 yd area.
    Etc.
    They could have like 1 use per rest or something and occupy the off-hand slot so even the Blade has to decide between cool songs or two weapon fighting.

  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    @Vallmyr - see the Beamblog. It's already confirmed that we're getting the Bard Hat, which allows Bard song to continue for a couple of rounds after stopping singing. So that's at least one item which will power up Bards significantly, because now we can use them in combat or casting while still getting the benefit of song.

    However, I wouldn't be surprised if one or two of the other new items were also Bard-specific, that'd probably be fairly proportionate among the large number of new items promised. So yes, if we don't get song choice like IWD, then a couple of new musical instruments giving effects somewhat akin to IWD Bard songs could be a credible substitute. (And perhaps much easier to implement, which presumably makes it more likely that Beamdog can afford to do it.)

    I agree with those who argue that unkitted Bards could do with a bit of a boost, because at the moment it's hardly ever worth not choosing a kitted Bard instead. However, if we had the full range of IWD Bard song, then unkitted Bards could leap from a little under-powered to perhaps even a little too powerful, because those songs make Bards really strong in IWD.

    Thus I really like your suggestion, a couple of instruments which give some of the effect of IWD songs without importing the full set ... BUT with the proviso that I'd restrict these items to unkitted Bards only, so that there's something a little more special about the unkitted class. (Although that incentive would only work, of course, if we can either import these items into BG2ee or find duplicates of them in BG2ee.)

    VallmyrDragonspearTymaker
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,835
    Mix it as a step into getting the same behavior in BG1&2EE, IWDEE and the Adventure Y
    @Gallowglass

    I definitely know my Blade would enjoy the bard hat =)

  • TorinTorin Member Posts: 229
    Mix it as a step into getting the same behavior in BG1&2EE, IWDEE and the Adventure Y
    Bard hat means little if bard songs still suck.
    Also does not fix Druid pathetic list of low level spells.

    rorikon
  • Bring new spells, bard songs, druids' abilities to the Adventure Y from IWDEE
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    VallmyrAstroBryGuy
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Torin said:

    Bard hat means little if bard songs still suck.

    I disagree, I reckon it makes the existing Bard song more viable.

    Having Bard song available means that the spells Remove Fear (Cleric, level 1) and/or Resist Fear (Mage, level 2) are no longer needed in memory (unless your Bard has been stunned or whatever), and freeing up your Cleric and/or Mage to memorise something else is obviously a gain. At present, when the cost of this gain is that your Bard needs to concentrate on singing, that's usually too high a price for the ordinary Bard song to be useful as a continuous (and un-Dispellable) preventative measure against Fear (i.e. enemy Horror spells, etc.), although it's still handy as a cure after someone fails a save or panics. However, with the Bard Hat, your Bard will only need to sing for one-round-in-three to maintain continuous immunity to Fear, and can cast a couple of combat spells (or fire several arrows, or whatever) between bursts of song. It'll often now be worthwhile to use continuous ordinary Bard song when facing enemies who radiate Fear (e.g. Demons, Dragons) or cast Horror (e.g. Mages), especially when such enemies are also likely to Dispel any pre-buffing with Remove Fear or Resist Fear.

    I agree that this isn't a huge change, but I reckon it's enough to move the ordinary Bard song from "sucks" to "the right tool for certain jobs". That's enough IMO, I don't want to leap to game-changingly powerful songs like in IWD. So I'm delighted by the news of the Hat. (Thanks for developing it, @Amber_Scott.)
    Torin said:

    Also does not fix Druid pathetic list of low level spells.

    True, of course. But although this is often complained about (and I have some sympathy for the complaints), I'm not convinced that it ought to be "fixed". Maybe one or two of the IWD Druid spells could be added, but I'd be cautious about going overboard.

    Some classes (such as Mages and Monks) are deliberately designed to be rather feeble at the start (and for quite a while afterwards, in the case of Monks), and yet grow to become very strong later. Druids are somewhat weak at the start, but they eventually end up as fairly powerful casters ... and maybe that's exactly how they ought to be. They're not as feeble as Mages at the start, but not as powerful as Mages at the end (except in Summoning, for which Druids are excellent), and they have a strange and lumpy power-cover along the way, which helps to make them very different from the fairly smooth progression of Clerics.

    It's good that classes are not too similar, it adds flavour and variety.

    Amber_Scott
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,446
    Mix it all

    I agree that this isn't a huge change, but I reckon it's enough to move the ordinary Bard song from "sucks" to "the right tool for certain jobs". That's enough IMO, I don't want to leap to game-changingly powerful songs like in IWD. So I'm delighted by the news of the Hat. (Thanks for developing it, @Amber_Scott.)

    You're welcome! Here's my favorite clip on bards sucking, and also the inspiration for my hat (and by extension, for the hat in the game.) NSFW: language.
    LOL
    I hadn't seen that before! Oh how I love Bards. Also, now I want a hat like that! At least my Charname will in SoD n_n

  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,415
    Bring new spells, bard songs, druids' abilities to the Adventure Y from IWDEE

    Vallmyr said:

    mayyybbee there should be new equipment that provides similar effects?
    They could have like 1 use per rest or something and occupy the off-hand slot

    I think the 'Song & Silence' mod introduces items exactly like that.

    BUT, there's an opcode to "change bard song" which is what the IWDification mod uses to give IWD songs to the trueclass, and which my mod uses to give custom bard songs to new kits. I haven't tested this, but theoretically it would work with the "while equipped" timing mode.

    The upshot is, instead of 1x/day item abilities, you would be able to use different bard songs whenever you want, through the usual mechanism, just by holding the item.

    Hmm, maybe I should test this, by seeing if I can mod those S&S items to work this way...
    That would be cool. Use the off-hand slot, so carrying the song-changing instrument means not being able to wield a bow or crossbow. Bards would become slingin' singers (or singin' slingers? :wink: )

  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 2,820
    Bring new spells, bard songs, druids' abilities to the Adventure Y from IWDEE
    I'd prefer for the game to have all of the IWD spells. However, if SoD has those spells, it would be nice for BG1EE and BG2EE to have those spells as well. It would feel weird for only the expansion to have the extra spells.

    HudzyArdulJuliusBorisov
  • Bring new spells, bard songs, druids' abilities to the Adventure Y from IWDEE
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    AstroBryGuyrorikonJuliusBorisovMortianna
  • TymakerTymaker Member Posts: 105
    edited December 2015
    Icewind Dale is a different game from a different place, I'd gust stick with BG spells, and I like how there is more attention to spell defenses.

    Post edited by Tymaker on
  • TorinTorin Member Posts: 229
    Mix it as a step into getting the same behavior in BG1&2EE, IWDEE and the Adventure Y

    I guess it's worth saying: for heaven's sake, whatever the devs do, DO NOT just pick and choose a few spells from IWDEE to add, if doing so invalidates the IWDification mod. Either give us all the spells (even if not in the game, give them to us in the engine) or give us none so that we can use IWDification to add them. If we don't get the spells, and also cannot use IWDification, then we end up worse off.

    Hmm I didn't even know this mod existed. Does it work with SCS for BG1EE?

  • TymakerTymaker Member Posts: 105
    Just confusion play no mind to it, but the intellectual version of it is coming out soon.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,019
    Bring new spells, bard songs, druids' abilities to the Adventure Y from IWDEE
    @Torin The mod can be downloaded here: http://www.gibberlings3.net/iwdification/, and yes, it's compatible with the EEs. It works with the SCS. But you must note, though, that the added spells will be available only to you, not the enemy spellcasters.

  • simplessimples Member Posts: 540

    This poll doesn't assume, but I think we can assume, that any such changes in SoD will also go into BGEE and BG2EE. In fact I think it's been said that the changes will come in a BGEE 1.4 update *before SoD ships,* so players can do a run with them and then import SoD.

    does that mean we get to try out the shaman class before SoD ships?

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,019
    Bring new spells, bard songs, druids' abilities to the Adventure Y from IWDEE
    @simples Yes, the pre-SoD patch for BGEE will contain the shaman class.

    Mortianna
  • TwentyTwenty Member Posts: 52
    Bring new spells, bard songs, druids' abilities to the Adventure Y from IWDEE
    New spells, definitelY!

    Grammarsalad
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