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Druids, arcane and divine spells, bard songs in SoD. What would you like: BG or IWDEE style?

2

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  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited August 2015
    Mix it all
    I wouldn't want to see IWD bard songs imported into BG, as that would seriously change class balance. Garrick goes from being a useless imbecile to actually quite useful. It's also worth noting that there are no vanilla bards in BG2, which kind of pushes the PC into playing one themselves, the IWD bard songs being so powerful.

    I would like to see the druid spell list expanded, but for duplicate spells, I think the BG version should always be retained in BG.

    Clearly, as SoD is an expansion of BG1, any changes to spell lists and bard songs would apply to both adventures.

  • Bring new spells, bard songs, druids' abilities to the Adventure Y from IWDEE
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    Dragonspear
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Mix it all
    Bards can be useful and fun in BG, if they have good stat allocation. But Garrick is meant to be useless and imbecilic, that's his principle character trait.

    Changing a character who is meant to be incompetent, and making them indispensable (like turning Jar Jar Binks into a power armour cyborg with quadruple lightsabres) may or may not be an improvement, but it is certainly a fundamental change to the story, which is outside the scope of the EEs.

    batoor
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,446
    Mix it all
    Would still be neat for a toggle option that way both parties can be happy n_n

    Like I feel any changes to the core game will need to be toggled options so that people who like the original stuff can enjoy that but then if one wanted IWD:EE's Bard Songs or say 3e's version of backstab you can also have that.

    kcwise
  • Bring new spells, bard songs, druids' abilities to the Adventure Y from IWDEE
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 677
    Is there some possibility of an option in the tweak pack or something else to disable these new implementations? If they should be included, at least to those of us who don't want them.

  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,415
    Bring new spells, bard songs, druids' abilities to the Adventure Y from IWDEE
    batoor said:

    Is there some possibility of an option in the tweak pack or something else to disable these new implementations? If they should be included, at least to those of us who don't want them.

    Well, there's no confirmation that the IWDEE spells, bard songs, sneak attack, etc. will be included in BGEE/SoD/BG2EE yet. However, IWDEE already included a toggle for 3E Sneak Attack, so I'd assume that's given if it's implemented in BGEE/SoD/BG2EE. As for spells, I guess it would just be "don't use them if you don't like them" (i.e., the same as for BG2 spells in IWDEE). The bard song should be easily moddable and/or editable in EEKeeper; removing Effect 251 from the character's CRE file should restore the default bard song.

    JuliusBorisov
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,307
    edited August 2015
    Bring new spells, bard songs, druids' abilities to the Adventure Y from IWDEE

    Garrick isn't useless. He's just not a min/max-ed munchkin character with illegal stats (which I guess in most CRPGs these days means "useless" :expressionless: ). He has a high enough intelligence to learn every spell level available to bards, he has a high Dex for AC, missile attack, and pick pocket bonuses. Giving him a better bard song makes him more useful, yes, but so does giving druids useful spells before 3rd level (which adding the IWDEE spells would do).

    stats aren't that important. his combat abilities are very subpar. he's essentially useless compared to most other npcs.

  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,810
    Let it stay in the Adventure Y as it is in BG
    bob_veng said:

    Garrick isn't useless. He's just not a min/max-ed munchkin character with illegal stats (which I guess in most CRPGs these days means "useless" :expressionless: ). He has a high enough intelligence to learn every spell level available to bards, he has a high Dex for AC, missile attack, and pick pocket bonuses. Giving him a better bard song makes him more useful, yes, but so does giving druids useful spells before 3rd level (which adding the IWDEE spells would do).

    stats aren't that important. his combat abilities are very subpar. he's essentially useless compared to most other npcs.
    Vanilla bards combat abilities are very subpar, not just Garrick. The vanilla version was even crueller than the EE because bards didn't have any lovely class only items like Elven chain to help them use all their abilities.

    But they leveled faster than mages, allowed thieves to skimp on pick pockets, could identify things with out wasting spell slots, could use wands to back up spellcasters and can fill in for a tank if it gets in trouble. They were exactly as they were described, a jack of all trades, a master of none. In a min/max environment that role is hard to fit in.

    Looping back on discussion, if IWD bard songs were carried over, I would think at least the Skald class would need some tweaking too, as you are taking the best part of their class and replacing it with the vanilla kit with no drawbacks.

    But that leads to power creep, which can wreck the balance of the game.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,021
    Bring new spells, bard songs, druids' abilities to the Adventure Y from IWDEE
    I think that this poll and recent @SionIV 's thread https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/43044/adding-too-many-things-to-bg-ee-bg2-ee#latest show:

    image

    Avenger_teambgrorikonGemHoundDragonspear
  • Ancalagon44Ancalagon44 Member Posts: 252
    I'd leave the bard song alone because of balance concerns, but I'd like to see some of the IWD spells in BG, especially the Druid spells. The more spells, the better as far as I'm concerned. More choice.

    I always thought that the choice of level 7 cleric and druid spells were underwhelming. A 4th level mage spell - confusion - as a 7th level clerical spell? Makes no sense, why bother?

  • brusbrus Member Posts: 944
    edited October 2015
    Go even further: create new, previously unseen/untried things
    Didn't they say at conference they'll add hundreds of new spells, items and abilities?

    Post edited by brus on
  • TorinTorin Member Posts: 229
    Mix it as a step into getting the same behavior in BG1&2EE, IWDEE and the Adventure Y

    As much as I like the IWD druid spells and IWD bard songs, for continuities' sake it's best if Adventure Y sticks to what Charname and his party used in BG1 and will use in BG2.

    As for the option of IWDfication of all BG games, I have to think about that. I would like to see more Bard songs, but I'm not sure about the other spells.

    BTW, I have yet to play IWD:EE, but I find the thought of going through IWD with all BG spells horrendous actually. I've heard the AI of the enemies isn't adjusted to it, so BG2 spells make IWD a walkover is my fear. And if the AI of the enemies makes proper use of IWD spells, it breaks down the atmosphere of what IWD is like.

    Sorry, went off-topic there, but my main point: let BG stay BG and let IWD stay IWD.

    Druids and Bards are terrible in BG1 and BG2. At least they need to be made better with help of IWDEE.

    rorikon
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,021
    Bring new spells, bard songs, druids' abilities to the Adventure Y from IWDEE
    brus said:

    Didn't they say a conference they'll add hundreds of new spells, items and abilities?

    Hundreds? Thousands!

    To "say something without saying anything©": they should add thousands and thousands of them because they were mentioned during the announcement process ;)

    Nimran
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,223
    I would prefer them to port the spells (especially druid) but not take IWD songs. The IWD songs fit better in that setting and would clash with the BG 2 HLA. I also thought that they clashed with kits as losing access to the songs is suddenly a much bigger disadvantage with nothing offsetting it.

    They could use some work, though.

  • CalmarCalmar Member Posts: 688
    Let it stay in the Adventure Y as it is in BG
    I like BG and IWD to stay distinct from each other. *Not* having everything makes each game more unique und less generic. :)

  • NimranNimran Member Posts: 4,868
    Go even further: create new, previously unseen/untried things
    THOUSANDS of new spells?! Would they even be able to name them all?

    JuliusBorisov
  • madmaximusmadmaximus Member Posts: 134
    Go even further: create new, previously unseen/untried things
    Missile of Patience!

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,021
    Bring new spells, bard songs, druids' abilities to the Adventure Y from IWDEE
    Nimran said:

    THOUSANDS of new spells?! Would they even be able to name them all?

    Easy. Magic Missile I, Magic Missile II, Magic Missile III, Fire Ball I, Fire Ball II, Fire Ball III... Oh wait, the wrong game ;)

    NimranelminsterBelgarathMTHlolien
  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,769
    I took Garrick for the first time in my current playthrough, and I just love the guy. His anti-fear song has saved the party a couple of times. With wands and the Army Scythe he's a pretty fair death dealer in his own right.

  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    The topic is drifting a lot here, but since we're on the subject ...

    I don't find Garrick remotely "useless". I took him along on my most recent BG1ee run, and I've also used him a few times in the past. It's largely a matter of your playing-style and party composition.

    The only skills for which Garrick is a sensible choice as your primary exponent would be lore (for identifying), picking pockets (which includes shoplifting), and (obviously) singing. Lore and (in BG1) singing are certainly quite minor skills, and picking pockets is of variable (but typically minor) importance depending upon your playing style.

    However, where Garrick shines is as a support character. He's pretty decent as your secondary arcane caster, and (with the right equipment - give him the Heavy Crossbow of Accuracy and some helpful gauntlets) also pretty decent as your secondary ranged attacker, and even okay as your tertiary melee attacker (not up close, but safely striking from behind your front-liners with a two-handed weapon). That's quite useful versatility, all in one character. You might find (depending upon how you like to construct a party) that including Garrick as backup for both arcane casting and ranged attack will free up a party slot for another more specialised character whom you couldn't otherwise include, which can make the party much stronger as a whole, even though Garrick's own direct contribution might not look so impressive.

    Most of my parties don't include Garrick, but certainly I've had some very viable parties where Garrick was the right fit for the job and performed very satisfactorily. Perhaps not outstanding excellence, but far from "useless".

    I'll give a concrete example. My most recent party had a Berserker(7)->Druid protagonist as party leader (an excellent main melee fighter before and after his dual-classing downtime, and also a useful divine caster once he got some levels), Viconia as main divine caster and secondary melee tank (with the Gauntlets of Ogre Power and heavy armour, she can melee without taking much damage and keep the enemy occupied, even though she doesn't dish out great damage), Kivan as ranged attacker (excellent, and can also melee well when necessary), Safana as thief (good thief skills, but not contributing much in combat), and Xan as main arcane caster. Now who do you want to complete that party? Well, I reckon what you most need is some arcane casting to support Xan (as an Enchanter, his prohibition from Evocation spells is a significant gap), and it'd also be handy to have some ranged attack to support Kivan ... so Garrick was just the ticket, and he did a fine job.

    (Incidentally, before someone else points this out ... yes, I know there's a risk of Kivan and Viconia falling out and fighting, but it doesn't usually seem to happen if you keep them non-adjacent in your party formation, and perhaps having high-CHA leadership also helps. Anyway, they didn't fight.)

    Son_of_Imoen
  • TorinTorin Member Posts: 229
    edited November 2015
    Mix it as a step into getting the same behavior in BG1&2EE, IWDEE and the Adventure Y
    None of what you mentioned makes him a useful party member, any full class character (except for a second thief) will be overall more useful, he is only decent if you have no mages in the party. OK, he might be more useful than Druid characters which are even worse in BG1EE due to pathetic choice of low levels spells.
    I had a Blade as part of my party in IWDEE and THAT was a useful character. He could both melee, buff like crazy and have useful bard song in the meantime. Garrick was pathetic in comparison.

  • ChnapyChnapy Member Posts: 360
    Mix it as a step into getting the same behavior in BG1&2EE, IWDEE and the Adventure Y
    to keep the subject nicely off topic : "yeah, what they said"
    Garrick is by no mean overpowered but that doens't mean he's useless. He's got less spells than a mage (and really shouldn't ever be your only spellcaster) but being able to wield longbows (or crossbow, too, but the deadshot is just really nice, and there are two in the game, just in case) in between castings and wear armor if needed, he can definitely hold his own in combat. And then he brings nice utility, such as protection against fear, high lore and pickpocket.

    All in all he's a guy who can find a spot in most parties (although he'll never be a tank) and can complement very nicely some other npcs, such as edwin.

    Teaching him spells (in the old school fashion) is a pain in the ass though.

    Of course, Eldoth is just as good in everything, except for the skie-to-bard ratio, which is imo very important to keep at 0.

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Let's try to steer the conversation back on topic. Feel free to start a new thread if you want to continue debating the merits or failings of Garrick, of course. ;)

    JuliusBorisov
  • GloatingSwineGloatingSwine Member Posts: 18
    Chnapy said:

    to keep the subject nicely off topic : "yeah, what they said"
    Garrick is by no mean overpowered but that doens't mean he's useless. He's got less spells than a mage (and really shouldn't ever be your only spellcaster) but being able to wield longbows (or crossbow, too, but the deadshot is just really nice, and there are two in the game, just in case) in between castings and wear armor if needed, he can definitely hold his own in combat. And then he brings nice utility, such as protection against fear, high lore and pickpocket.

    Trouble is that everything Garrick can do, someone else can do a lot better. Garrick isn't technically useless, but the opportunity cost of having him in a party is large when you only have six slots and there are characters who are so much better at the things he can do.

  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356

    Trouble is that everything Garrick can do, someone else can do a lot better.

    Any one thing he can do, yes, someone else can do better. But all the things he can do, combined in the same one character? Actually no.

    Eldoth is fairly close, of course, but he's a Bard too, and therefore has roughly the same weaknesses as Garrick. He's slightly better at range, but comes later, and by the time you get him he has already locked in a worse melee configuration than Garrick, he's basically the same at casting, he's Evil which doesn't suit so many parties, he has conflicts even in an Evil party (with Shar-Teel), and he's coupled with Skie, so Eldoth is often an undesirable alternative on several grounds.

    Garrick isn't technically useless, but the opportunity cost of having him in a party is large when you only have six slots and there are characters who are so much better at the things he can do.

    Whether it's an opportunity cost or gain depends upon who else is in the party, it's nonsense to try to make a one-size-fits-all statement like that.

    I don't usually take Garrick, but for some parties, the situation is completely opposite to what you say - see the example I offered above, from my latest completed run. Garrick's not great at any one thing, but his versatility meant that all of my other NPCs in that party could be single-class specialists, so they were all really solid at their jobs. If I hadn't had Garrick (or possibly Eldoth), then I'd have ended up swapping out other NPCs to keep the party's skills balanced, so it wouldn't have been the same party at all. Garrick was definitely worthwhile for that particular party.

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